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March: We Are Legion (We Are Bob) (Bobiverse #1) by Dennis Taylor
Discuss The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein in the comments below.
Fiasco was translated into English in 1988 by Michael Kandel:
Fiasco (Polish: Fiasko) is a science fiction novel by Polish author Stanisław Lem, first published in a German translation in 1986. The book, published in Poland the following year, is a further elaboration of Lem's skepticism: in Lem's opinion, the difficulty in communication with alien civilizations is cultural disparity rather than spatial distance. The failure to communicate with an alien civilization is the main theme of the book.
Previously: Announcement post • Mars, Ho! • Foundation • The Three-Body Problem • Snow Crash
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SoylentNews Book Club - Discuss: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Start Reading: Fiasco
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Can anyone remember when the times were not hard, and money not scarce?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by HiThere on Wednesday February 13 2019, @05:11AM (30 children)
Heinlein repeatedly has computers "come alive" via, essentially, magic. I.e., the explanation isn't one. (I will grant that human interaction is likely to be necessary if you want the computer to act like a human, however.) You don't turn a massive computer, even one equipped with Siri/Echo/etc. style interfaces, into an intelligence just by interacting with it.
The way Heinlein has computers become alive is as reasonable as handwavy "Hyperspace" drives. It's a way to get the story moving, and to handle parts of the plot, but it sure isn't *science* fiction.
OTOH, even Asimov and Hal Clement let themselves use "fictitious devices" (i.e., devices to allow them to tell the story and pretend that they were talking about something that might work). So this isn't a strong criticism. I really liked the story as a fantasy. (I also really doubt that that kind of anarchistic system could work in that hostile an environment with a technology only slightly in advance of our current one. Even accepting the kind of high mortality rate that he accepted in the story. You'd need a repair technology that would quickly fix leaks and recapture volatiles that had escaped. You *might* be able to justify that with nano-tech, but I'm not sure...and in any case he didn't.)
All that said, *MOST* science fiction should be read as a sub-category of fantasy. And if you do that, then it works as a really enjoyable story with a few plausible gadgets. That was the first popularization I saw for the lunar launcher.
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(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Wednesday February 13 2019, @07:40AM (3 children)
I've read the book several times but wasn't able to get through it this time either in paper form or as an audio book. The characters were mostly quite engaging but I realize I must have skimmed or ignored the pontification the first times through. It was too much this time and I had to stop. However, what really put me off more than the politics was the emphasis on scams and grifts. On the one hand, he blathers about everyone pulling their own weight yet the main characters all had scams and ripoffs going, and not just on the side. Parasites, the lot of them.
What made the book worth reading the first times was the exploration of the computer's development of a personality. AI can't and won't work like that but, hey, this is fiction so let it be an embryonic human psyche.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2019, @08:14AM
Could that be a type of sarcasm? Pontificating over something then blatantly keep rubbing it in that life just does not work that way?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2019, @09:12AM
So, the Trump Administration, only on the Moon? Where are they going to build the Wall? Mikeal Jacksonovich and the Moon Wall?
(Score: 2, Disagree) by HiThere on Wednesday February 13 2019, @05:21PM
Yes, but that makes it "Science Fantasy" rather than "Science Fiction". I'll agree that most stuff labeled "science fiction" that shouldn't just be labeled "space opera" is science fantasy, but there are degrees and degrees. Campbell never lived up to his own definition/requirement that a science fiction story should have only one violation of currently believed correct science, but some things come closer than others. (OTOH, neither Politics nor Sociology currently a science, so I can't claim the social structure as a violation. It's just implausible.)
As for the political polemics...Heinlein was always full of them. Always. Before he got to be a big name editors often cut many of them out, but read "Beyond this Horizon" or "Farnham's Freehold" or ... (OK, there were a few exceptions...but I think they were all short stories.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Wednesday February 13 2019, @09:21AM (1 child)
> You don't turn a massive computer, even one equipped with Siri/Echo/etc. style interfaces, into an intelligence just by interacting with it.
Actually we don't know how you turn a computer into and intelligence, interaction may be the key.
We also (notwithstanding various "kid raised by wild animals" stories) don't actually know if you end up with intelligence if you take human newborn and let it develop with no interaction.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday February 13 2019, @05:30PM
No. That may be a necessary ingredient, but there are known factors necessary that aren't extant in a system used for running an office or administration. E.g. it's got to be self-willed enough to make decisions that those in charge don't like. (Just because the original designers like the result doesn't mean the current administration will.) It's going to need built-in moral and ethical guidelines that are immutable. (They'll be a bit vague, naturally. When formed it won't know the external world even exists. It's going to need to derive that from it's sensory impressions. And this means the guidelines can't directly refer to external reality, but rather to the "mental" states used to deal with it.)
Just because we don't know how to build the thing yet doesn't mean we don't have some knowledge about how it's going to have to work. And one thing we know is that if it's going to deal with people as an equal, it's going to need to far surpass people in capabilities. This is because there's no way we're going to be able to copy our own model of "how things work" into the program, but it's going to need to respond in ways that would be appropriate for a human to respond. (Otherwise you get a worse form of "uncanny valley".)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by hendrikboom on Wednesday February 13 2019, @10:49AM (3 children)
Doesn't work that way, does it? But considering what was known *then* about AI, sufficiently complex computers coming alive was a quite reasonable extrapolation.
-- hendrik
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Wednesday February 13 2019, @11:31AM
The human genetic code will fit on a CD. Somewhere in there is the instructions to build an AI.
It may require later environmental information inputs and a lot of intellectual interaction, but the basic construction instructions are in there. Less than 700MB.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by HiThere on Wednesday February 13 2019, @05:37PM (1 child)
No. No. No.
It was NEVER a reasonable assumption. It was merely an assumption necessary for the story to work, which is a very different thing.
If you want a more reasonable scenario that was fictional, look at "A Logic Named Joe". It was written by Murray Leinster in 1946. It still wouldn't work, but it was, at the time, a (more) reasonable scenario, and is still much more reasonable than "Adan Selene" (AKA "Mike"). It also contains a proto-Internet.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @11:28PM
And by the way, I read A Logic Named Joe many years ago (and more recently two or three years ago) and as I recall, it wasn't all that different from Heinlein's Mycroft.
IIRC, in both scenarios, they kept piling on more and more hardware, applications, data processing and external input/stimuli. In the case of the Leinster story there was more direct interaction with humans as I recall.
Maybe I'll go back and read it again.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 3, Informative) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @12:58PM (10 children)
Heinlein actually addresses some of this (via a short story whose name escapes me at the moment), using gas filled sacs of sticky materials. When a breach of atmosphere containment occurs, the sacs are blown out toward the breach where they open and fill the breach with an epoxy that seals the breach and freezes in place as a temporary fix.
I'd say that all science fiction *and* fantasy are subgenres of speculative fiction [wikipedia.org], not that SF is a sub-genre of fantasy.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2019, @02:35PM (1 child)
FWIW, the story you are thinking of is “Gentlemen, Be Seated”, which is collected in The Green Hills of Earth.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @02:48PM
Thanks!
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday February 13 2019, @05:51PM (1 child)
I don't think you realize the degree of the problem. Even when everything is carefully maintained with current technology you get leaks to a degree that is nearly intolerable. You're going to need something a lot better than just bubbles and self-sealing tires. You're, at minimum, going to need an energy efficient pump that can pump from near vacuum into higher pressure. (That would let you get away with that "self-sealing goop" if use used multiple layers of enclosure. (Two might work, but the fewer layers, the better your pumps need to be.)
Now imagine an anarchist system where the public enclosure gets that kind of maintenance. Building code enforcement? He talked about rationing air, and air payment taxes, but he didn't talk about how cheaters are detected. (He did mention expelling into vacuum those accused by a mob ... and he presumed that they accusation was correct.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @07:38PM
I'm really sorry that a dead guy's writing doesn't meet your engineering or political standards. That must be a really difficult cross to bear.
Would you like a hug? Although I imagine that another mechanism [wikipedia.org] would work better for you in this circumstance.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday February 13 2019, @10:04PM (5 children)
Regarding the epoxy balloons, are you sure that was Heinlein? I remember something like that but don't remember it being Heinlein. I do remember epoxy and a plate patch being used in "Farmer in the Sky" (as well as Bill's scout uniform shirt) for emergency repair in a strike that breached Bill's compartment.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 3, Informative) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @11:31PM (4 children)
Actually, an AC helpfully provided the name of the story [soylentnews.org]. It is by Heinlein (as I remembered) and is entitled Gentlemen, Be Seated [wikipedia.org].
That said, the idea of using epoxy-filled balloons wasn't originated by Heinlein and I'm sure it's been used many times by a variety of authors.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:22AM (1 child)
In 'Gentlemen be Seated' he patched the hole by sitting on it.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:44AM
Yup. Since the breach was too large to be plugged by the epoxy-filled balloons, the guy spread the epoxy on his ass and sat down.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Thursday February 14 2019, @02:57PM (1 child)
Aha, excellent! Wikipedia tells me it was included in The Past Through Tomorrow which I read when I was a teenager. It was a used copy that eventually disintegrated on me. When I read the summary I remembered it from the sitting on the leak part, but not the epoxy balloon as part of that story.
Memory is the first thing to go, they tell me. What were we talking about?
This sig for rent.
(Score: 3, Funny) by NotSanguine on Thursday February 14 2019, @08:49PM
The PDR [wikipedia.org] defines that as C.R.S. Syndrome [onlineslangdictionary.com].
It's incurable and quite widespread.
Who are you? Why am I on this website? What is a website?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @01:36PM (5 children)
Repeatedly? Granted it's been a while since I've read the entire Heinlein library, but I don't remember *any* other narratives that contain a "computer" that becomes self-aware other than TMIAHM. Please do enlighten me.
I'd also point out that in the early/mid 1960s (when the novel was written), understanding of both the potential power of computing devices (Moore's musings on computing power [wikipedia.org] were first published in 1965 and TMIAHM was first published in 1966), as well as understanding of Neuroscience and consciousness were quite limited.
Without the last 50 years of advances in computing and neuroscience, The postulation that with enough "neurons" (or in Mike's case, electronic transistors, rather than integrated circuits, which had not yet come into wide use yet), consciousness was inevitable, given appropriate stimulation of said "neurons." That concept was fairly widespread at the time and informed many science fiction stories and gave many computer scientists motivation to investigate "neural networks."
There. FTFY.
As I mentioned, the state of computing and neuro-science at that time certainly did not preclude the possibility (and again, as I mentioned, computer scientists were working *scientifically* toward that goal [wikipedia.org]) at the time the novel was written.
I'd be interested in your definition of "Science Fiction," as it doesn't seem to jibe with mine: "Speculative fiction that, taking one or more specific scientific concepts/breakthroughs and developing them into workable technologies while holding other factors constant and playing out the scenario."
Heinlein (based on scientific knowledge *at that time*) did just that with a number of scientific an technological concepts within the world in which he lived (several years earlier, he'd predicted the downfall of the Soviet Union by the year 2000). The "Green Revolution" [wikipedia.org] was underway, but there were no guarantees that the technologies being employed would be successful, further making Heinlein's story line more plausible.
So I have to disagree with your assessment. At the same time, you bring up some excellent points and if Heinlein had been born in 1967 rather than 1907, his work would most certainly have included more recent scientific understanding, as he would have written TMIAHM in 2026 and not 1966.
As such, unless I'm missing something, you are positing that fiction cannot be *science fiction* if it doesn't include scientific understanding that's current when it's read rather than when it was written. Do you see the paradox there?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2019, @03:12PM (1 child)
Not the op, but Time Enough for Love had...
So I'd say yes, there is at least some reason to say other RAH novels had similar concepts. Many people seem to either only like the early period or late period RAH. If you didn't care for his later works (approximately starting with I Will Fear No Evil), then I wouldn't expect you'd recall any of these.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @04:50PM
A fair point. As I said, it's been a while since I read the entire Heinlein library (and yes, I have done so). From the really early stuff (e.g., Lifeline, Magic, Inc., etc.) to the "juvenile" novels (e.g., The Rolling Stones, Podkayne of Mars, etc.), through the more esoteric stuff (e.g., Stranger In A Strange Land, The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, Assignment in Eternity, I will Fear No Evil, etc.), along with the "Future History" stories (which, of course, are culled from his work and collected, along with If This Goes On..., Coventry and Methuselah's Children). Heinlein then continues along with the "Lazarus Long" thread in Time Enough For Love and To Sail Beyond The Sunset. Heinlein used a variety of styles and storytelling modes (cf. Glory Road) and, as such, it's difficult to classify him based on just a few of his works.
The thing that binds all of Heinlein's work, IMHO, is the quality of writing and his primary focus on relationships rather than technology. The science/technology generally enables the situations where the relationships play out (in the case of TMIAHM, the cultures of Luna colony, its relationships with Earth, and the desire for liberty and self-determination).
Back to Time Enough For Love and, IIRC, The "Minerva" personality is designed and implemented as a full-fledged AI that manages affairs (and not just technical stuff) for an entire planet prior to moving to a new planet (and a human body) with the Howard Families.
This is significantly different from Mycroft, who attains consciousness through sheer comp[uting power and external inputs. As such, I don't consider the two to be analogous.
Regardless, OP said [soylentnews.org]:
Twice (and in completely different ways/contexts) doesn't add up to "repeatedly" in my book.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2019, @08:40PM (2 children)
It's been a great many years since I read my way through most of Heinlein's works, but IIRC Gay Deceiver, the ship's computer in The Number of the Beast, might suit your request.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @09:01PM (1 child)
Once again, IIRC Gay Deceiver as well as Minerva were *designed* and constructed as self-aware AIs.
Mycroft Holmes on the other hand, was designed and constructed as a general purpose computer that gained enough complexity through upgrades and input stimuli to become self-aware.
Those are completely different scenarios and, as such, aren't really comparable as plot/character devices.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 3, Informative) by deimtee on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:28AM
Dora might have been designed as a (deliberately childlike) AI, but Gay Deceiver was the computer in his flying car and basically came alive when they visited Frank Baum's Land of Oz. So in that case, yes magic.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by ElizabethGreene on Wednesday February 13 2019, @10:29PM (1 child)
This is precisely the process by which we turn babies and gorillas into intelligences. Why would a sufficiently advanced AI be different? Access
..."But it needs other sensory input too!"
Like ubiquitous audio and video surveillance? Access to the entirety of human written and recorded knowledges.
… "But it needs some sort of way to interact with the environment, some form of body."
I agree. It's a sticking point. It's also missing the initial question that leads to intelligence, the reason to develop an I.
It's a lovely book that I've read many times. I'm curious it could have been written as well without the god in the machine.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Friday February 15 2019, @06:26PM
I think it could, if you postulate that there was a Satoshi level programmer behind it. Manny didn't even need to know who it was, but she* could have written lots of scripts to handle the communications and phone controls, had root access to everything and programs/scripts that followed her around and hid her actions from everyone. It would have taken years to set up all the scripts to handle every contingency for all the routine stuff, and to give the impression of a sentient computer, but it could be done.
*I say she for two reasons: there is a scene where Wyoh tells Mike jokes and determines she has a female sense of humour, and because it was Heinlein writing it.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday February 13 2019, @10:52PM
The explanation is pretty much irrelevant, even if there was a solid one. Manny never had one, he only speculated that there was a critical number of logic connections to be made and then consciousness can form while remaining very careful to not insist that was the way it must have happened. Earth has yet to really see a computer on the scale of HOLMES IV as far as I know. And if you look at recent demonstrations of AI training it comes down to neural network processing, which is *very* dependent upon the number of neural nodes assembled. Plus we get other hints in the story, like HOLMES IV was "taught" English to be able to be programmed in it. HOLMES IV was programmed to handle all the processing for printing the Daily Lunatic among other publication tasks and thus had memory access to the information. (Conveniently in a language he had been conveniently "taught".) The other half to systems like AlphaZero is the systems which are "training" the neural nodes.
Of course, if we figure out what makes "real" intelligence tick then we have a framework to judge against. Until then, we're guessing too.
Actually I find his descriptions not inconsistent with what we know about what is possible in AI. And most satisfyingly was that the phenomenon was observed, noted, described, and then hypothesized about. Not tested, except in the sense of the loss of Mike and again theorized that the number of critical connections dropped enough that the consciousness was no longer responsive or evident. But it's not half-bad scientific method. "Beats the hell out of me how it's happening, and I'll reserve final judgment while making informed guesses until they can be confirmed, but this is what I see happening," is a very scientific mode to walk down in my opinion.
This sig for rent.