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posted by NCommander on Monday June 08 2020, @01:57PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the somewhat-overdue dept.

As promised, here's the round-table discussion post that I said on Wednesday was coming. We have a long history at SoylentNews of listening and responding to our community; I genuinely hope that never changes. I also recognize that I may have ruffled some feathers in the last few weeks with original content postings so here's the best place to get this all out.

I am mindful of the community's support and goodwill; I don't want to squander any of it. Yes, there are times where my hand may be forced (e.g., DCMA takedowns). Still, I'm always a bit hesitant whenever I post on the main site for anything that isn't site update news or similar. I may be the de facto site leader, but I want my submissions to be treated like anyone else's — I want no favoritism. The editorial team does review my stories and signs off before they go live (unless it's an "emergency" situation such as the last time we blew up the site). However, as the saying goes, the buck stops with me.

SoylentNews accepts original content. I'm also aware that I've probably submitted the most original content so far (See "Previously", below for some examples). I'm grateful for the community's apparent acceptance of my submissions and the positive responses to them. What I don't know is if there is an undercurrent of displeasure with these. Maybe everyone thinks these are all fine. Then again, maybe somebody has an issue with them. Rather than assume anything, let's get it all out in the open.

What I want to cover in this round-table discussion is original content and having images in posts as well as topics such as yesterday's Live Show on Improving Your Security -- Wednesday June 3rd, 2020.

So, contributors and commenters to SoylentNews, get that Reply button hot and let me hear your feedback. As usual, either a member of staff or I will respond to your comments below,

73 de NCommander

Previously:
(2020-06-03) Live Show on Improving Your Security -- Wednesday June 3rd, 2020
(2020-05-24) Retrotech: The Novell NetWare Experience
(2020-05-14) Exploring Windows for Workgroups 3.11 - Early 90s Networking
(2020-05-10) Examining Windows 1.0 HELLO.C - 35 Years of Backwards Compatibility
(2020-05-15) Meta: Having a Chat about SoylentNews' Internet Relay Chat
(2018-10-25) My Time as an ICANN Fellow
(2017-10-09) soylentnews.org experiencing DNSSEC issues
(2017-04-20) Soylentnews.org is Moving to Gentoo...
(2017-04-17) SN Security Updates: CAA, LogJam, HTTP Method Disable, and 3DES
(2017-03-13) Xenix 2.2.3c Restoration: Xrossing The X (Part 4)

Related Stories

Xenix 2.2.3c Restoration: Xrossing The X (Part 4) 11 comments

Last time — with the help of the excellent Michal Necasek of the OS/2 Museum — we talked about mapping the damage within the existing Xenix 386 disks and successfully got the system to the end of installation.

*

For those new to the series, I recommend you catch up with the previous three articles:

  1. Restoring Xenix 386 2.2.3c, Part 1
  2. Xenix 2.2.3c Restoration: No Tools, No Problem (Part 2)
  3. Xenix 2.2.3c Restoration: Damage Mapping (Part 3)

Unfortunately, at this point we had exhausted the data we could successfully recover from the TeleDisk images, so now it was time to think laterally in our quest to restore viable installation media. Back in Part 2, I posted the disk headers from each disk indicating what it was and where it was in the set:

./tmp/_lbl/prd=xos/typ=386AT/rel=2.2.3c/vol=N03
./tmp/_lbl/prd=xos/typ=n86/rel=2.2.2c/vol=B02
./tmp/_lbl/prd=xos/typ=n86/rel=2.2.2c/vol=X01

And also noted that there was a slight version mismatch (2.2.3 vs 2.2.2). What I didn’t point out was the type was different: n86, vs 386AT; Xenix speak for “generic x86” vs. “386 AT”. As Michal and I discussed it, I realized there was another place we could go to find sectors.

SN Security Updates: CAA, LogJam, HTTP Method Disable, and 3DES 37 comments

In the continuing saga of website tinkering and people's love of update posts, I'm back with some backend configuration changes. Right now, things have been relatively quiet on the backend side of things. We've got some good news, and some bad news in this update. That being said, we've made a few small updates over the weekend. Rapid fire style, let's go through them:

Soylentnews.org is Moving to Gentoo... 103 comments

Two months ago, I polled the community for advice on the underlying operating system that should power SoylentNews (SN). After reading comments, and some recent experiences in my personal and professional life, we are migrating to Gentoo as the operating system of choice. As of right now, we've already migrated our development box, lithium, over, and using it as a shakedown to see how painful the overall migration will be. I'm pleased to report that, aside from varnish (an HTTP accelerator), the process went relatively smoothly.

soylentnews.org experiencing DNSSEC issues 15 comments

We've discovered over the weekend that soylentnews.org was failing to resolve with some DNSSEC enabled resolvers. After debugging and manually checking our setup, the problem appears to be occurring due to an issue with the Linode DNS servers when accessed over IPv6. As such, some users may experience slow waiting times due to these DNS issues. I have filed a ticket with Linode about this, and will keep you guys up to date.

73 de NCommander

Community Reviews: My Time as an ICANN Fellow 12 comments

Disclaimer: This post does not reflect the views or policies of SoylentNews Public Benefit Corporation (SN PBC), its staff, or my role as president. The opinions and statements within are my own, Michael Casadevall, and neither I nor SN PBC were financially compensated for this post.

There are times in life where you simply don't know where you will end up. For me, a chance encounter in Puerto Rico lead to a rather interesting series of events. I have spent the previous week (October 20th-26th) attending the ICANN 63rd International Public Meeting. For those who aren't familiar with the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN), it is essentially the not-for-profit organization that administrates the Internet root zone which forms the linchpin of the modern internet, and allows domain names such as soylentnews.org to exist.

As a fellow, I have been working to help advance policy from the perspective of Internet end-users, as well as improving access to the Internet in the form of Internationalized Domain Names. For those less familiar with the technical underpinnings of the Internet, I'll also talk a bit about DNS, and more of the work I am currently in the process of handling at ICANN.

In This Issue

  • DNS - What is it?
  • The Internet Root Zone, Top Level Domains, and Second Level Domains
  • What Is ICANN?
  • The Fellowship Program
  • New Generic Top Level Domains
  • String Contention and Name Collisions
  • Internationalized Domain Names
  • In Closing
  • If You Want To Get Involved
  • Acknowledgements

Read more past the fold ...

Examining Windows 1.0 HELLO.C - 35 Years of Backwards Compatibility 78 comments

For those who've been long-time readers of SoylentNews, it's not exactly a secret that I have a personal interest in retro computing and documenting the history and evolution of the Personal Computer. About three years ago, I ran a series of articles about restoring Xenix 2.2.3c, and I'm far overdue on writing a new one. For those who do programming work of any sort, you'll also be familiar with "Hello World", the first program most, if not all, programmers write in their careers.

A sample hello world program might look like the following:

#include <stdio.h>

int main() {
 printf("Hello world\n");
 return 0;
}

Recently, I was inspired to investigate the original HELLO.C for Windows 1.0, a 125 line behemoth that was talked about in hush tones. To that end, I recorded a video on YouTube that provides a look into the world of programming for Windows 1.0, and then testing the backward compatibility of Windows through to Windows 10.

Hello World Titlecard

For those less inclined to watch a video, my write-up of the experience is past the fold and an annotated version of the file is available on GitHub

Exploring Windows for Workgroups 3.11 - Early 90s Networking 88 comments

So at it turns out, being cooped up due to COVID-19 causes your local resident NCommander to go on a retro computing spree. Last time, I dug into the nuts and bolts of Hello World for Windows 1.0.. Today, the Delorean is ready to take us to 1993 — the height of the "Network Wars" between Microsoft, Novell Netware, and many other companies competing to control your protocols — to take a closer look at one of Microsoft's offerings: Windows for Workgroups

As with the previous article, there's a YouTube video covering most of the content as well as: a live demonstration of Windows for Workgroups in action, my personal experiences, and the best startup chimes of the early 90s.

Exploring Windows for Workgroups 3.11

If the summary doesn't make you relive all those General Protection Faults, then slip past the fold to see what all the hubbub was about for Windows for Workgroups compared to its younger brother, Windows 3.1.

Meta: Having a Chat about SoylentNews' Internet Relay Chat 32 comments

Background:
Back in the early days of SoylentNews, things were often fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants. We tried to plan ahead and anticipate future needs. In retrospect, I'd like to think we did pretty well, all in all. One early casualty was the choice of our discussion system. My memory is fuzzy on the details, but I seem to recall it was based on "phpBB Forum Software" (Corrections welcome!) That eventually was superseded by IRC.

Internet Relay Chat (IRC):
Yes, SoylentNews has its own IRC service. It's used for all manner of purposes. Ostensibly, it's for staff to communicate with each other about site plans, development, and operations. But, multiple "channels" are readily implemented, so we have a bunch of channels up and running. If you are new to IRC, the easiest way to get started is to use our web portal — just select a nick, accept "#Soylent" as the channel, and you're there!

If you have heard about IRC and are curious about our IRC service, please read on past the fold. Otherwise, a new story will be along presently.

Unrelated:
Please join me in wishing NCommander a Happy Birthday!

Retrotech: The Novell NetWare Experience 92 comments

On what is becoming a running theme here on SoylentNews, we're reliving the early 90s, and picking up right where I left off from Windows for Workgroups, it was time to look at the 800-pound gorilla: Novell NetWare.

Unlike early Mac, UNIX and Windows, I didn't actually have any personal experience with NetWare back in the day. Instead, my hands were first guided on a stream of my weekly show, HACK-ALT-NCOMMANDER, hosted as part of DEFCON 201, combined with a binge reading marathon of some very hefty manuals. In that vein, this is more of my impressions of what NetWare user and administration is like, especially compared to the tools of the day.

Ultimately, I found NetWare a very strange experience, and there were a lot of pluses and minuses to cover, so as usual, here's the tl;dr video summary, followed by more in-depth write-up.

Novell NetWare video

If you haven't ABENDed your copy of server.exe, click below the fold to learn what all the hubbub was about!

Live Show on Improving Your Security -- Wednesday June 3rd, 2020 28 comments

[Speaking as the de-facto leader of SoylentNews, I know this community is very sensitive to self-promotional "Slashvertising" and similar. Since our inception, we've prided ourselves on listening to our community and taking those views into account. I've walked a bit of a fine line with that with my original content articles both recently and in the past. I do not want to be a rule unto myself so if this post ends up crossing that line, mention it in the comments and we'll take those lessons to heart. Also, we haven't had a community roundtable here at SN in quite a long time, so I'm going to schedule one go to live on Monday.]

[NB: Yes, "original content" articles are welcome here. If anyone is considering it, please try to keep them tech-related and provide supporting links. Also provide contact info (email address) so any issues or questions can be discussed as needed. --martyb]

The simple fact is that in the last few weeks, the world, especially in the United States has become a very different place. Here in New York City, there's been constant protests and escalation between the police and protesters. In an era where drones are being used to track and monitor protesters, digital security is more important more than ever. I want to do my bit on trying to help people keep themselves safe and secure in these times.

Normally, I try not to push self-promotion here, and I've made sure that my recent original content articles are not pushing that line. I mentioned in my last article that I host a weekly hacking show called HACK-ALT-NCOMMANDER, as part of DEFCON 201, the local DEF CON group for the New Jersey area. Usually, I cover some bit of retro-tech, random reverse engineering, and other random and strange things. Not today.

This time, I've decided to cover these topics:

  • email security
  • a quick primer on GnuPG and S/MIME
  • understanding Tor
  • basic OPSEC (using Windows as a base)

I'll also be fielding questions in real-time. If you're interested, please tune in at 8PM Eastern Daylight Time (24:00 UTC) to the DEFCON 201 video streams (see links below). I may also cover aspects of securing systems for IT administrators depending on how chat directs me.

Twitch:https://www.twitch.tv/defcon201live
YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYDQaOHbK5trRU2CDgb0qSg
dLive:https://dlive.tv/defcon201
Invidious [TOR]:http://axqzx4s6s54s32yentfqojs3x5i7faxza6xo3ehd4bzzsg2ii4fv2iid.onion/channel/UCYDQaOHbK5trRU2CDgb0qSg
Periscope:https://www.twitter.com/defcon201nj

73 de NCommander, hoping that you're all safe

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(1) 2
  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @02:07PM (25 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @02:07PM (#1004816)

    This AC would say hosting images in comments or journals would be a bad idea from a legal perspective* and even limiting it to subscribers could be a problem.

    * Even given the current precarious state of law and order

    • (Score: 3, Funny) by NCommander on Monday June 08 2020, @02:15PM (6 children)

      by NCommander (2) Subscriber Badge <mcasadevall@soylentnews.org> on Monday June 08 2020, @02:15PM (#1004819) Homepage Journal

      For my content specifically, it's either images I made myself, or would clearly fall under a fair use exception, and of the later, the only ones I've used in articles that I can think of offhand is a picture of the box for some of the software.

      Legally, we're shielded under Section 230. If we get a DMCA takedown notice, the post goes down, and means SN PBC is off the hook. We get a counter-claim, the post goes back up but we're shielded.

      Now if Section 230 goes *poof*, that's a different bailiwick.

      I'm not suggesting we put images in comments. Journals I might consider but I'm slightly concerned that having the site's HDDs jammed up due to spambot 3-million is a legit concern. If someone wants to post and edit original content w/ images, we'd probably give them privs on dev so they can use the full article editor.

      --
      Still always moving
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Monday June 08 2020, @03:41PM (2 children)

        by PiMuNu (3823) on Monday June 08 2020, @03:41PM (#1004857)

        Are you covered if someone posts something illegal?

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @04:44PM (1 child)

          For the most part, yes. There are some shitty, idiotic laws centered around kiddy diddlers and probably national security but otherwise we're not under any obligation to proactively search for anything or do something about anything we happen across.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Monday June 08 2020, @06:24PM

            by PiMuNu (3823) on Monday June 08 2020, @06:24PM (#1004934)

            Thanks for reply :)

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Monday June 08 2020, @04:54PM

        by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday June 08 2020, @04:54PM (#1004889) Journal

        Don't do it The legal hassles just aren't worth it, at least wait until we elect a congress that will put in place real protection. Still got a few months. Happy hunting.

        --
        Ok, we paid the ransom. Do I get my dog back? REDЯUM
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by acid andy on Monday June 08 2020, @05:07PM (1 child)

        by acid andy (1683) on Monday June 08 2020, @05:07PM (#1004895) Homepage Journal

        If you allow images in journals (or even comments) and it gets used to troll people, I for one would probably leave this site. A user preference to disable them at the server side when logged in might be just about tolerable though.

        Considering some of the shit that gets spammed here in textual form, I'd think very carefully before you allow the great unwashed to post images.

        --
        Where did that thought come from? And that one? What about this one? Woah, man...
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @02:24PM (15 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @02:24PM (#1004826)

      My vote is only allow photos in the article. And... hopefully no banner ads, pop ups, pop unders, or crypto miners.

      • (Score: 4, Funny) by NCommander on Monday June 08 2020, @02:37PM

        by NCommander (2) Subscriber Badge <mcasadevall@soylentnews.org> on Monday June 08 2020, @02:37PM (#1004829) Homepage Journal

        This is specifically why we don't use the YouTube embedded player. It would let Google track whoever loaded up the main page. Same goes for ... basically any embedded web player, and I don't know if its really worth the effort to add one to SN. There is the video tag so we won't necessarily need JS but each video file is 500-700 MiB. We have a lot of bandwidth but that's going to add up quick.

        I do admit the screenshot of the "play button" looks a bit tacky, but it at least gets the job done.

        --
        Still always moving
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by DECbot on Monday June 08 2020, @04:01PM (5 children)

        by DECbot (832) on Monday June 08 2020, @04:01PM (#1004864) Journal

        I second this as well.
         
        To add, I think photos for original content is appropriate. However, photos from linked articles (even if used within the legal scope of DCMA) is detracting and would encourage more bandwidth usage for the site--thus increasing the hosting costs of SN. A photo would be a quick identifier of content that is a SN exclusive or original.

        --
        cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Common Joe on Monday June 08 2020, @07:15PM (4 children)

          Hmmm... how would the editors be able to be sure the photos are original and that I created them? Maybe I took the photos from Wikimedia. Or maybe I took some non-obvious ones from Disney.

          • (Score: 2) by DECbot on Monday June 08 2020, @07:58PM (1 child)

            by DECbot (832) on Monday June 08 2020, @07:58PM (#1004975) Journal

            The same way the AP knows photos are taken by their photographers, ultimately they don't.

            --
            cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @10:52PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @10:52PM (#1005022)

              The AP can write checks to lawyers/settlements to cover their ass that SN can't even imagine.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @03:02PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @03:02PM (#1005200)

            Personally, I'm happy that SN has no images--I'd probably turn them off if an option appeared.

            To parent--one quick way to check for image source/(C) is TinEye.com -- they don't have everything, but the site has been around for years and they have a lot of images to compare to.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:53PM

            You'd need to include a selfie with your driver's license, video of you creating said image, and a note from your mom certifying that nobody else has ever made said image before.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Monday June 08 2020, @05:51PM (7 children)

        by hemocyanin (186) on Monday June 08 2020, @05:51PM (#1004920) Journal

        I vote against all images.

        If something needs an image, it can be by link elsewhere. The character of the site will change with images and if allowed in the comments, it will become even more antagonistic. Just look at twitter and facebook and all of the cruel, logically flawed, worthless memes for proof.

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @05:54PM (4 children)

          A blanket "no" under all circumstances then?

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Monday June 08 2020, @06:18PM (3 children)

            by hemocyanin (186) on Monday June 08 2020, @06:18PM (#1004933) Journal

            yes.

            Images are what links were invented for.

            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday June 08 2020, @06:51PM (1 child)

              by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday June 08 2020, @06:51PM (#1004946) Journal

              I agree, the unicode is bad enough!

              --
              Ok, we paid the ransom. Do I get my dog back? REDЯUM
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by coolgopher on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:26AM

              by coolgopher (1157) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:26AM (#1005085)

              I agree. There is no need for images to be displayed for articles. Links to images are fine.

              If there's original content, maybe that content should live elsewhere (blogspot or whatever is around these days) and we link to it like any other post?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @10:08PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @10:08PM (#1005016)

          Here is one. Just imagine what Mr. Hudson's journal posts would look like if he were able to embed images. And then there are the security issues involved in handling them, the privacy issues from linking/embeding, or the liability from hosting them.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @11:02PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @11:02PM (#1005025)

      As a lowly AC I'm sure my opinion means squat, but please don't allow posting of pictures. If you do this site will quickly end up filled with meme pictures like most of the rest of the damned web. Not that many of those pictures aren't funny, but I greatly enjoy there being a site where people actually have to write out words in order to get their thoughts across.

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @11:59PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @11:59PM (#1005039)

        [animated GIF of a minion yelling "RIGHT ON" with thumbs raised and the same words appearing in block text below]

        [Roll Safe pointing at head with text "Can't have dumb conversation without actual conversation"]

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Bot on Monday June 08 2020, @02:13PM (6 children)

    by Bot (3902) on Monday June 08 2020, @02:13PM (#1004818) Journal

    There are 1 ways (binary jokes are passe' so I made a zero index one) to make a mistake:
    0. Listening to nobody
    1. Listening to everybody

    Feedback is good but you can't please everybody.
    If you don't like a submission, skip to the next, the end.

    --
    Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by maxwell demon on Monday June 08 2020, @02:39PM (4 children)

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Monday June 08 2020, @02:39PM (#1004830) Journal

      Even with zero index, the number is still 2, not 1. For example in C, to declare an array you can access with indices 0 and 1, you write int a[2]; if you write 1 instead of 2, you've got a bug.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
      • (Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Monday June 08 2020, @03:38PM

        by shrewdsheep (5215) Subscriber Badge on Monday June 08 2020, @03:38PM (#1004855)

        It's the old discussion of cardinal vs. ordinal, yet it boils down to a matter of definition. If most of our arrays have at least size 2, let us devise an cardinal system that is expressed in terms of N - 2 (N being the "usual" cardinality), so 'a' in your example would be declared as a[0] (saving us valuable bits for the size).

      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Monday June 08 2020, @10:58PM (2 children)

        by Bot (3902) on Monday June 08 2020, @10:58PM (#1005024) Journal

        Meatbag, I 0indexed Peano axioms 2.

        --
        Account abandoned.
        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:09AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:09AM (#1005080)

          Your CPU is malfunctioning again. There were clearly 10 options in your earlier comment.

          • (Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:13AM

            by Bot (3902) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:13AM (#1005103) Journal

            Your context cache must be extremely limited I guess?

            --
            Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Monday June 08 2020, @07:11PM

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday June 08 2020, @07:11PM (#1004950) Journal

      If you don't like a submission, skip to the next, the end.

      Yeah, isn't there a book on the *Tao of Scroll*, or something like that, for people who have difficulty?

      --
      Ok, we paid the ransom. Do I get my dog back? REDЯUM
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by AlwaysNever on Monday June 08 2020, @02:20PM (3 children)

    by AlwaysNever (5817) on Monday June 08 2020, @02:20PM (#1004824)

    I don't understand what is this about. I very much appreciate NCommander's posts, especially when dealing with old Xenix lore and retrocomputing alike. He is top notch. I hope he keeps the good stuff coming. I don't much like these navel gazing posts of late. Push ahead and the troops will follow.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by NCommander on Monday June 08 2020, @02:43PM (2 children)

      by NCommander (2) Subscriber Badge <mcasadevall@soylentnews.org> on Monday June 08 2020, @02:43PM (#1004831) Homepage Journal

      Thank you kindly.

      Actually, when I drafted this, I only linked one or two articles. The editoral team is the one who added the rather long list of novels (and that's not counting the shit I wrote during golive!).

      I legit forgot I wrote up about my time at ICANN. I may talk with the editors to create a seperate nexus to put my own content under.

      --
      Still always moving
      • (Score: 3, Touché) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @04:08PM

        by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @04:08PM (#1004869)

        I may talk with the editors to create a seperate nexus to put my own content under.

        How about maybe a user's journal section or something similar? :)

        Trying to be funny, in case someone doesn't get it.

        Seriously, I think it's great as-is, and I and many (most) of us look forward to your submissions. Thank you!

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by dry on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:11AM

        by dry (223) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:11AM (#1005101) Journal

        I fully agree with fullynever, your articles are interesting and on topic for the site I believe. Even the odd picture in your posts seemed fine to me though I agree with others about not going overboard in allowing them.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by AlwaysNever on Monday June 08 2020, @02:32PM (3 children)

    by AlwaysNever (5817) on Monday June 08 2020, @02:32PM (#1004828)

    Sobre lo de poner fotos o imágenes en posts, no me parece buena idea. Va a descuadrar los hilos de comentarios, y será abusado por trolles. Imágenes sólo en artículos y filtradas por los editores. He dicho.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @02:48PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @02:48PM (#1004833)

      But... goatse in every third post!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @03:04PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @03:04PM (#1004842)

      I think images will be fine as long as they are all in Spanish.

      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday June 09 2020, @03:24PM

        by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @03:24PM (#1005205) Journal

        Hmm, if we switch to Mandarin we can have our cake, and eat it, too, because there's such a thing as visual puns with Chinese characters.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @02:57PM (134 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @02:57PM (#1004835)

    That trend towards the complete dumbing down of discussion. Just compare the level of discussion any medium that does not allow images to those that do. I suspect it basically works as a 'barrier to entry'. Sites such as soylent obviously push away and all who cannot enjoy discussion without images, and I think the overall effective is incredibly positive. It means we'll never reach Reddit size but it also means we'll never reach Reddit stupidity, and that's a pretty good deal in my opinion!

    On a tangential but related topic - at some point I do think Soylent needs to start enforcing the misuse of mod points. There are a small but growing number of folks who are doing things like labeling perfectly reasonable and on topic posts they disagree with as troll/off topic/etc exclusively to get the -1 mod in an effort to try to hide posts. It's not a big deal yet because I think there's only two or three people really going overboard on this but this sort of vote manipulation is another way that sites start going downhill. Beyond this I think that this sort of behavior also tends to be contagious. People end up with one of their posts inappropriately modded and so they end up doing the exact same thing to other users resulting in an exponential spread. The disagree mod is there for a reason.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @03:09PM (127 children)

      Yup, that's why every registered user who's been around more than a month gets the full compliment of mod points. See a bad downmod, upmod it. It's a insanely preferable to giving staff the power and responsibility of policing all mods. I mean, nobody wants me deciding what's a bad Troll mod and I don't want to have to look at every Troll mod to decide if it's legit.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Farkus888 on Monday June 08 2020, @03:36PM (38 children)

        by Farkus888 (5159) on Monday June 08 2020, @03:36PM (#1004853)

        Taking away mod points from accounts that are consistently overruled could help. If 9 out of 10 of my negative mods ends up being >+2, I probably don't deserve those points. They could make new accounts, but it would slow them down.

        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @04:07PM (21 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @04:07PM (#1004868)

          Yeah I think there should be some way to algorithmically determine abuse based on something like this. If somebody is much more often than not modding things as troll or off topic or whatever else that end up getting upvoted by a number of other users, it makes it pretty easy to flag that user for engaging in abuse. At the minimum, it'd bring the search pool down from every post with a negative mod on it to a very tiny chunk that end up being let's say 'disputed'.

          Beyond this, I think the worst penalty should basically just be removing a user's modding privileges for a while - so the cost of a false positive isn't the guillotine but just a bit of mild inconvenience for those who somehow stumbled into an inappropriate abuse flagging.

          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @04:26PM (19 children)

            by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @04:26PM (#1004875)

            I couldn't understand your first post- seemed to contradict itself, but this post makes sense. I may have some of the stronger opinions about the mod system, and I like your ideas.

            I'll propose an idea at the root level. I think we need ongoing discussions of things like this whole topic, and subtopics like mod system.

            Basically I advocate for a more democratic mod system- one where 1 person doesn't have the power to drop your comment below people's reading threshold. And maybe some people would have a stronger vote, but even that gets complicated for too many reasons to write here now.

            Obviously I have much more to say about it, and that's why I'd like to see a side discussion dedicated to meta topics like mod system.

            In fact, the mod system HAS been discussed on SN before, with great ideas put forth by martyb, tmb, and other top admins. IIRC tmb even lost mod privileges for a month or so due to something I forget, so there is that penalty potential in place here.

            • (Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @04:49PM (3 children)

              Yup, I spanked myself for improper use of the Spam mod.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 5, Funny) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @05:04PM (2 children)

                by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @05:04PM (#1004891)

                Yup, I spanked myself...

                Hogged all the pleasure to yourself again, huh? :)

                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @05:36PM (1 child)

                  Knowing the sense of humor around these parts, I wouldn't trust anyone to not "forget" a safe word.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 3, Touché) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @07:33PM

                    by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @07:33PM (#1004968)

                    Safe word? Never heard of one.

            • (Score: 5, Informative) by martyb on Monday June 08 2020, @06:48PM (3 children)

              by martyb (76) Subscriber Badge on Monday June 08 2020, @06:48PM (#1004945) Journal

              In fact, the mod system HAS been discussed on SN before, with great ideas put forth by martyb, tmb, and other top admins. IIRC tmb even lost mod privileges for a month or so due to something I forget, so there is that penalty potential in place here.

              Yes, I noticed a spam mod TMB gave to a comment and took exception to it. Had a vigorous discussion with him about it on IRC. Although I could see his point, that comment did not meet the criteria for a spam mod as it was currently described in the moderation FAQ. He ultimately concurred. To his credit — and without hesitation — he owned up to it AND of his own volition gave himself a one-month moderation ban.

              As for the outcome of the discussion you mentioned, it has been put on hold for the simple reason of lack of resources. There are a very limited number of minor changes that can be immediately made to the site (templates). Most others need to be checked into source control and a new version of the slashcode ("rehash") released. That is something that needs another pair of eyes to review and roll out. At the moment, TMB is stretched already with some construction work that should wind down in a couple months or so.

              We are, however, far from idle! Juggs (aka Deucalion on IRC) has been studiously trying to bring our IRC server up to date... and making steady progress, too! This is on our new server, aluminum, which is slated to eventually replace our one-and-only CentOS server. There are a bunch of other services that run on that box, that are in line to get transitioned over after IRC. At the same time, TMB has been transitioning some of our Ubuntu boxes over to Gentoo.

              So, we are aware and making progress to where we can actually do something about it. ATM, everything still works, we have backups should things go sideways, and we are slowly (but surely) on the right path!

              --
              Wit is intellect, dancing.
              • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @07:26PM (2 children)

                by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @07:26PM (#1004961)

                Wow, thank you so much martyb!! It's all making perfect sense now. I guess I only wish I could help somehow... But thank you all for making this a great site.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:18PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:18PM (#1005176)

                  I guess I only wish I could help somehow...

                  You can help by browsing at -1 when you have mod points.

                  You have that power. Use it.

                  • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:35AM

                    by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:35AM (#1005579)

                    No, not going there, that's where the goatsee lives...

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @08:00PM (10 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @08:00PM (#1004977)

              one where 1 person doesn't have the power to drop your comment below people's reading threshold.

              *No one* has that power unless you *you* give it to them. Which is why I always read at -1.

              As PinkyGigglebrain's [soylentnews.org] current sig reads:

              "Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."

              That's the beauty of the moderation system we have -- all comments are visible -- if you choose to see them. As such, if you don't read at -1, *you* are the one denying yourself knowledge. Which is fine, as long as it doesn't impact others.

              What's more, and perhaps TMB could chime in here with statistics about this (not putting you on the spot, TMB -- just wondering if you can tease some info about this out of the DB), posts which get downmodded often get upmodded as well -- reflecting the sensibilities of the people who matter -- Soylentils (SoylentNews *is* people, after all).

              In my experience, that generally leads to (mostly) reasonable moderation. No system is or could be perfect. Since you don't think it works well:

              Obviously I have much more to say about it, and that's why I'd like to see a side discussion dedicated to meta topics like mod system.

              Given that this article is a community roundtable, I can't think of a better forum to have that discussion. Please do elucidate and let's discuss.

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:04AM (9 children)

                Not really clear on what you were asking but you don't want me giving out stats on bad moderations any more than you want me giving out punishment for moderating improperly, either way puts me in a position of deciding what's good and what's not. If you were asking about posts that get downmodded and upmodded both, I'll look into it in the morning and get back to you. It's a pain in the butt query to figure out without slamming our db and my brain's better at taking that sort of abuse before it's awake enough to object.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:18AM (5 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:18AM (#1005053)

                  Not really clear on what you were asking but you don't want me giving out stats on bad moderations any more than you want me giving out punishment for moderating improperly,

                  Quite so. My apologies for being vague. What I was asking for were statistics about moderated messages.

                  I posited that in many cases, messages that were downmodded were also upmodded. I further speculated that the interplay of those moderations leads to a (mostly) fair assessment of comment quality.

                  In that context, I wondered if my initial premise was valid, and if so, how that affected total moderations.

                  To be specific, the data I was requesting was some or all of:
                  1. The average number of upmods/downmods for messages that get moderated;
                  2. A frequency distribution [wikipedia.org] of comment moderation scores that received moderation;
                  3. Ratio of upmods to downmods across comments that receive *multiple* moderations;
                  4. The mean and median moderation scores for comments that receive moderation;
                  5. The above statistics broken down by comments posted by AC vs. registered users.

                  Are most comments which receive a single moderation usually an upmod or a downmod?

                  How does the universe of *moderated* comments break down in terms of moderation score?

                  What's the story with comments that receive multiple moderations? Are those moderations generally split between upmods and downmods, or mostly just upmods?

                  And lots of other questions that didn't just pop off the top of my head.

                  The statistics I mentioned could give a useful window into how the moderation system is being used.

                  • (Score: 5, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:07PM (4 children)

                    Well, for starters, out of our million and small change comments, only 65005 have been downmodded at all. Of those, 36336 have also been upmodded. Now for your specific requests, all of which I'm excluding Spam and Disagree from and rounding to four decimal places...

                    1. Mean number of mods for moderated comments: up: 1.6123 down: 0.2366
                    2. Frequency distribution of moderated comments (does not take user settings or karma bonus into account): -1: 24140, 0: 18268, 1: 65815, 2: 139237, 3: 61956, 4: 38214, 5: 15799
                    3. Mean ratio of upmods to downmods on multi-moderated comments: 2.5301:1.5218
                    4. The mean score for all moderated comments: 2.0302, median: 2
                    5. Fuuuuck...

                    AC comments only:

                    1. Mean number of mods for moderated comments: up: 1.7878, down: 1.2284
                    2. Frequency distribution of moderated comments (does not take user settings or karma bonus into account): -1: 20942, 0: 7630, 1: 56073, 2: 21737, 3: 9269, 4: 4733, 5: 4356
                    3. Mean ratio of upmods to downmods on multi-moderated comments: 2.5771:1.4536
                    4. The mean score for all moderated comments: 1.1793 , median: 1

                    Registered users only:

                    1. Mean number of mods for moderated comments; up: 1.7607, down: 1.4192
                    2. Frequency distribution of moderated comments (does not take user settings or karma bonus into account): -1: 3199, 0: 10638, 1: 9743, 2: 117498, 3: 52690, 4: 33480, 5: 11445
                    3. Mean ratio of upmods to downmods on multi-moderated comments: 2.5085:1.5698
                    4. The mean score for all moderated comments: 2.4750, median: 2

                    Yup, that's all I'm doing for the morning. Had to redo the multi-mod ones from scratch because I flubbed the SQL when I went to count up the mods for registered and AC. Keep in mind that if the numbers don't precisely add up, it's because I did this while people were still posting and moderating. If they're badly off, I probably needed more coffee when I ran that query.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:31PM (3 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:31PM (#1005281)

                      Thank you Buzzard!

                      That didn't really play out the way I expected in several respects -- which just goes to show that the exercise was useful and worthwhile.

                      Mean number of mods for moderated comments: up: 1.6123 down: 0.2366
                              Frequency distribution of moderated comments (does not take user settings or karma bonus into account): -1: 24140, 0: 18268, 1: 65815, 2: 139237, 3: 61956, 4: 38214, 5: 15799
                              Mean ratio of upmods to downmods on multi-moderated comments: 2.5301:1.5218
                              The mean score for all moderated comments: 2.0302, median: 2
                              Fuuuuck...

                      It's interesting that despite all the complaints about downmods, Soylentils upmod significantly more than they downmod.

                      I won't quote the AC vs. registered user splits here (you can view them here [soylentnews.org]).

                      That said, I find it a little surprising that ACs are less likely to be downmodded than registered users, but not by all that much (AC: 1.2284 vs. Registered Users: 1.4192). I'd have expected the reverse.

                      Registered Users are less likely to be upmodded than ACs, but not by very much (AC: 1.878 vs. Registered Users: 1.7607).

                      So. based on a quick eyeball analysis, it seems that comments:
                      1. Are more likely to be upmodded than downmodded;
                      2. This holds true for both AC and Registered User comments;
                      3. ACs are slightly *more* likely to be upmodded and slightly *less* likely to be downmodded than Registered Users;
                      4. Registered Users get more upmods than ACs when the comment score is already at 2+;

                      (4) may be due to selection bias (with those who read at >= +2 seeing those comments and not those below that threshold).
                      I suspect that AC comments get fewer *total* moderations than registered users for the same reason.

                      So (at least to me) it seems that for comments *that get moderated* ACs and Registered users are treated pretty much the same, except for those comments which are already significantly upmodded.

                      It might be instructive to also see how the total number of comments break down (AC vs. Registered Users) and how many AC comments receive any moderation vs. how many Registered User comments receive any moderation.

                      Given the quick review, I conclude that the moderation system *is* working fairly well and that it would likely work better if registered users would browse at -1 when they have mod points.

                      Does that seem a reasonable conclusion, or am I missing something important?

                      • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:41PM (2 children)

                        4 is most likely largely from registered users starting at 1 and nearly all of them getting an additional +1 good karma bonus unless they have it turned off.

                        There were 353532 AC comments when I checked 20 minutes or so ago. I'll let you do the math from the cid of this comment and the frequency distributions from there, I'm headed for a nap.

                        No idea on the conclusion. They might get annoyed that they had to see all the lower scored comments and be in a bad moderating mood. Only way to tell would be to try for a while and find out. But everyone who's been here a month has mod points every day, so that would effectively make all registered users browse at -1 every day until they'd used up that day's mod points.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:49PM (1 child)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:49PM (#1005287)

                          4 is most likely largely from registered users starting at 1 and nearly all of them getting an additional +1 good karma bonus unless they have it turned off.

                          That certainly makes sense. Especially given that the statistics you provided didn't include the karma bonus.

                          There were 353532 AC comments when I checked 20 minutes or so ago. I'll let you do the math from the cid of this comment and the frequency distributions from there, I'm headed for a nap.

                          So about 1/3 of comments are AC. I'd have expected it would be more, but there it is.

                          Thanks again for providing these details Buzzard. And sweet dreams!

                          But everyone who's been here a month has mod points every day, so that would effectively make all registered users browse at -1 every day until they'd used up that day's mod points.

                          A reasonable point. Perhaps folks could consider doing so a couple times a week?

                          That said, I always read at -1 because I don't want to miss interesting stuff that doesn't get upmodded -- and to upmod those comments.

                          It's a small price to pay, IMHO, to highlight the good stuff.

                          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by martyb on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:58PM

                            by martyb (76) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:58PM (#1005431) Journal

                            Late to join in here, but my $0.02 is that I have *always* read comments at a threshold of -1.

                            Accidents do happen. I know I've mis-modded (is that a word?) a few myself. Something something being human something.

                            Not withstanding the foregoing, abuse can happen. I have a great deal of empathy for the "little guy (or gal!)". I've been on the short end of things enough times to know how it feels... and don't like it one bit. So if that means that when I am reading comments, I am looking at everything>em> right from the start, then so be it. If I see what I think is an incorrect moderation -- I'm on it with a quick reverse-mod to balance things out!

                            I wonder how many of those who complain about down-mods actually view comments at -1? Hmmm?

                            It bears mentioning that staff gets the same number of mod points as everyone else: 10 per day.

                            That said, I have little enough time to get to read comments here; I spend too much time trying to get stories pushed out to the community! Call it a labor of love, whatever. I've been with the site from before it went live... and have no plans to leave any time soon!

                            --
                            Wit is intellect, dancing.
                • (Score: 2) by coolgopher on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:31AM (1 child)

                  by coolgopher (1157) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:31AM (#1005088)

                  When you figure that query out, maybe stash it in a stored procedure for reuse?

                • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @08:56AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @08:56AM (#1005128)

                  Just do what they do around here, set your terminal to launch the job to beat the shit out of the server at 4AM so less people notice. If possible, do it when most of the IT people are on vacation so that way why you bring everything down to its knees, it's that much easier to recover from the bonus features of your hastily written code.

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Mykl on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:30AM

            by Mykl (1112) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:30AM (#1005048)

            Disagree.

            I tend to use my mod points to mark things as Interesting or Insightful. I tend not to use the Spam or Troll mods. However, there are likely people out there who are interested in 'keeping the site clean' who mostly use their mods to get rid of trash rather than marking up good stuff. Both are valid uses of the mod system, but I don't think that the person using most of their points for taking out the trash should be penalised for that activity versus my use.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @04:10PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @04:10PM (#1004870)

          And say hello to monoculture echo chamber

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @04:47PM (14 children)

          Everyone who moderates in even a slightly contentious discussion is consistently overruled though. I'd much rather not take away people's right to an opinion because it doesn't agree with everyone else's.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Monday June 08 2020, @06:27PM (13 children)

            by maxwell demon (1608) on Monday June 08 2020, @06:27PM (#1004935) Journal

            Except that Troll and Offtopic mods are not meant to express your opinion. If you misuse them for that purpose, you deserve the consequences.

            --
            The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
            • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @07:20PM (9 children)

              by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @07:20PM (#1004956)

              Yes, that. And what I've been trying to say is that "Troll" is being misused a LOT, but (obviously) there's no easy way to fix it.

              But taken into context, it all makes sense- all part of "growing pains" and it's all on a to-do list for SN admins.

              Not wishing (even if I had the time) to get into bit philosophical discussions, it all dovetails with governmental concepts, policing, who even sets the rules, libertarianism, etc. As a descendant of the American Revolution, for me some of these things are more than intellectual debate.

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:19AM (6 children)

                Well, it's plenty easy to fix but you have a choice between two options. Do you let the community fix it as they decide via corrective moderation or do you have a select few sit in judgment of everyone? Rotating who sits in judgment or having them self-select doesn't make the results any more democratic; it's still a select group deciding what's right for everyone.

                I mean, ponder for a moment if you would. What would happen if Trump implemented a meta-voting program that would deny folks the right to vote for the next N years based on how they voted last time according to "randomly selected" or self-selected voters?

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:42AM (3 children)

                  by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:42AM (#1005584)

                  ... it's still a select group deciding what's right for everyone.

                  And your point is?

                  Seriously, it kind of sounds familiar, no? Parliamentary maybe? Y'all top admins could appoint people. They do it somehow on reddit, but I confess, I'm not involved there and barely ever read anything there and don't know the levers and cogwheels.

                  Your randomly selected voter system is interesting. Leave it up to the pseudo-random number generators. :) Can't be any worse than what we got now.

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:27AM (2 children)

                    It very much can. It's a feedback of majority (plurality?) consensus that's going to be not one whit more intellectually honest than moderation currently is. So if bad moderation is happening often enough to bother you now, you're going to like meta-moderation even less. And it's either forced upon you and you're going to be cranky about it or you get an even worse group doing the meta-moderating because anyone who self-selects to be part of a special group that gets to enforce their will on others should by no means ever be allowed to.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @07:17PM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @07:17PM (#1005949)

                      anyone who self-selects to be part of a special group that gets to enforce their will on others should by no means ever be allowed to.

                      So you /do/ support defunding the police!

                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 12 2020, @03:20PM

                        Stop trying to disarm me and I have no issue with handling any issues that crop up myself. I'm a realist though and know the rest of you would never be satisfied without some formal authority to make sure you follow their rules.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:57AM (1 child)

                  by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:57AM (#1005594)

                  See, all this insanity is stimulating my thinking. Here's an idea (sorry, it's coding and I'm not proposing you do anything- you've done far more than anyone and it's awesome!) But someday... If a post is modded "Troll", 1) make it show to all. 2) anyone can upmod it at no cost, but the upmod won't change its score yet- just keep a count. After so many upmod counts, the system decides that enough people have outvoted the one idiot, and 1) "Troll" gets removed, and 2) person who laid the turd gets some kind of punishment, like maybe all his posts get modded troll. Okay, not that, I was just venting, but some kind of punishment.

              • (Score: 0, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:23AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:23AM (#1005054)

                Yes, that. And what I've been trying to say is that "Troll" is being misused a LOT, but (obviously) there's no easy way to fix it.

                Actually, there's a *very* easy way to fix it. If you see a comment that's been, in your view, unfairly modded 'Troll', then negate it with a positive moderation.

                Oh, and you're welcome.

                • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:50AM

                  by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:50AM (#1005589)

                  Okay, for the 27th time: if said comment gets modded "Troll", I might not see it, depending on my reading threshold- to be able to mod it up. Right? Get it yet? Logic?

                  And don't waste your time telling me to lower my reading threshold. I'll set it where I feel like setting it. There's a reason the system has a settable threshold.

                  Get rid of the reading threshold and your point has more merit.

                  And, for the record, I often DO upmod where "Troll" has been improperly done.

                  I have many ideas for fixes, but as martyb has written, admins and coders are backlogged. Other than idiot abusers, this system is pretty good.

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:08AM

              Offtopic is mostly a fair cop there but Troll? You're by definition divining someone else's motives, so that could never be anything but an opinion.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:21AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:21AM (#1005046)

              One of the problems is that "troll" necessarily expresses your opinion. For example, a post of "Trump is obviously showing signs of dementia" or "Biden is obviously showing signs of dementia" differs only in "troll" or "disagree" depending on if you think the person is sincerely expressing that opinion or not. It is true that the facts that inform the opinion is many times obviously revealing of the intent, but that doesn't change that ultimate resolution as an opinion.

              • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:10AM

                by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:10AM (#1005600)

                Absolutely, and it all comes down to the definition of "Troll". The real problem is that it involves knowing the intent of the writer, and I posit you can't know that. You can infer it, and maybe deduce it from other writings by that person, but I'm sorry, I see "Troll" laid improperly 95% of the time. Just because someone gets butthurt over a statement does not make the statement nor the writer "Troll". Right? I think we've all agreed on that many times.

                I suggested an idea above, and here's an alternate: no one person gets to mod a post "troll". It would take some number of votes.

                There's a psychological effect and aspect here too. "Troll", as applied to someone's writing, is a fairly recent thing. Even when I see posts modded "Troll" I wonder "gee, maybe it is troll and I'm still learning what "troll" means. I won't waste a mod point upmodding it because other people are smarter than me".

      • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @04:35PM (36 children)

        by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @04:35PM (#1004876)

        Thank you for (finally?) commenting on this and answering some questions I've written here more than once.

        See a bad downmod, upmod it.

        But see, that's the whole problem! Readers with mod points won't see a comment that has been improperly downmodded below their reading threshold! Logical, right? I'm not going to read every -1 comment just to see if it needs fixing. Almost nobody does nor will.

        I don't think anybody is asking you, TMB, or any one person to police / judge bad mods. However, at the very least I advocate for a downmod appeal system.

        I can hear someone whining about the tremendous workload- I'll gladly participate in a mod jury. It'll be a self-limiting process. If the jury decides the downmod was inappropriate, the offending downmodder will be penalized. Extra penalty for misusing "troll" or "spam".

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @04:45PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @04:45PM (#1004883)

          Meta moderation solved the problem in about the best, most fair way possible but I also understand why it was removed on a smaller site.

        • (Score: 1) by DECbot on Monday June 08 2020, @04:49PM (14 children)

          by DECbot (832) on Monday June 08 2020, @04:49PM (#1004888) Journal

          That's where you have to set your user preferences. I like to have anything at or above to 0 to be fully visible. anything at -1 will have the subject visible but content collapsed. Below -1, is hidden. That way, subjects with a more thought out subject line than "frost piss" I can quickly review while not having to bother with stuff that looks like obvious spam. Of course this setup isn't a panacea; it won't expose legit comments mod-bombed to -2.

          --
          cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
          • (Score: 3, Informative) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @05:19PM (13 children)

            by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @05:19PM (#1004904)

            DECbot, your response is great, but is exactly the the thinking problem- you're over-focusing and missing the big-picture. It seems so obvious that I'm a bit frustrated trying to explain it.

            I, and most here, know about setting the reading threshold.

            BTW, AFAIK there is no such score of -2.

            1) Right now, your post is a "1" score. Average person with no login visits SN. Default reading threshold is 2. That person won't see your post!
            2) Yes, anyone can change global threshold, or click the "+" in box icon, but will they? What percentage will? 50%? 20%? Your post is invisible to many.
            3) What are the stats on registered users' reading thresholds? Mine is usually 0, but not always, and I rarely click on -1 posts.

            Do you see my point? It is NOT a balanced system! By definition, everyone will see a score 5 post. And, almost no-one will see a -1 post - - to be able to rescue it if they were so inclined.

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by DECbot on Monday June 08 2020, @05:30PM (9 children)

              by DECbot (832) on Monday June 08 2020, @05:30PM (#1004910) Journal

              If the decision was up to me, logged in users with mod points would be forced to see at least the subjects of comments at -1. If you want your default returned, use up your mod points. As for those not logged in, yeah I can see your point. For a user with no login, the default shouldn't be set so high. Though it may be deliberate to encourage people to get a login so they can set their own reading preferences to something more reasonable.

              --
              cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
              • (Score: 3, Funny) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @07:22PM (3 children)

                by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @07:22PM (#1004958)

                Wow, excellent ideas- thanks!

                I may switch to -1 if someone can guarantee I won't see a goatsee...

                • (Score: 5, Touché) by coolgopher on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:52AM (2 children)

                  by coolgopher (1157) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:52AM (#1005115)

                  I may switch to -1 if someone can guarantee I won't see a goatsee...

                  Look, if it helps any, you're not safe from that at higher settings either.

                  /      \             \            /    \
                  |       |             \          |      |
                  |       `.             |         |       :
                  `        |             |        \|       |
                   \       | /       /  \\\   --__ \\       :
                    \      \/   _--~~          ~--__| \     |
                     \      \_-~                    ~-_\    |
                      \_     \        _.--------.______\|   |
                        \     \______// _ ___ _ (_(__>  \   |
                         \   .  C ___)  ______ (_(____>  |  /
                         /\ |   C ____)/      \ (_____>  |_/
                        / /\|   C_____)       |  (___>   /  \
                       |   (   _C_____)\______/  // _/ /     \
                       |    \  |__   \\_________// (__/       |
                      | \    \____)   `----   --'             |
                      |  \_          ___\       /_          _/ |
                     |              /    |     |  \            |
                     |             |    /       \  \           |
                     |          / /    |         |  \           |
                     |         / /      \__/\___/    |          |
                    |           /        |    |       |         |
                    |          |         |    |       |         |

                  I mean, anyone might try to sneak a +1 Funny past the filters just for the lolz. We're certainly known to have some such jesters here. And I mean, it's a classic by now. What self-respecting site would NOT have that in its history?

                  Besides, it's not like there isn't an arms race between the comment filter and the posters anyway, so something it bound to slip past onto unsuspecting eyes. To quote that timeless movie1 - "Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something". As for a goatse, let me continue to quote that same movie - "As youuuuuu wiiiiish"...

                  1) By which I of course mean The Princess Bride [imdb.com]

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:17PM (1 child)

                    ...it's not like there isn't an arms race between the comment filter and the posters anyway...

                    Thanks for reminding me, time to clear them out since nobody's tried to get around any of them for probably six months or more.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 3, Funny) by coolgopher on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:29AM

                      by coolgopher (1157) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 10 2020, @01:29AM (#1005575)

                      That compression filter is mean. In the end I had to code up a small entropy generator to get past it. Definitely discourages random crap posting and forces some dedicated trolling :D

              • (Score: 5, Insightful) by hubie on Monday June 08 2020, @07:50PM (1 child)

                by hubie (1068) on Monday June 08 2020, @07:50PM (#1004973) Journal

                I think this is a great idea. I'm one of the 10% mentioned that always browses at -1, and I always have even on the green site. I have always shared the concern that there is a lot of very good stuff at or even below 0 that gets missed by people who refuse to lower their threshold. Perhaps to use mod points, you need to click a button to enable them which then kicks in a forced -1 viewing threshold. Forcing this will probably somewhat reduce participation in moderation, but I personally like the tradeoff. I've always viewed slashcode moderation as being sort of like voting, where you are performing a civic duty to make your society better.

                Is browsing at -1 really that much of an annoyance? Maybe after all these years I'm just used to scanning by obvious troll/spam posts, but I really don't see it as a problem. Lately there are these "boomer" posts, which are easy to pass by, and the "apk tranny hate" posts, but I really don't see it as that big of a problem. The goatse stuff you need to actually click on, so you never see that stuff either unless you can't resist seeing where a link is going.

                • (Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:28AM

                  by dry (223) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:28AM (#1005107) Journal

                  Likewise I always read at -1, skipping some posts that are obviously not worth reading. Here, I assumed most read at -1 as it isn't like there are that many posts. On the green site, I often use most of my points up-modding AC's who actually have something to say that is worth reading. Here I don't moderate as much due to assuming most read at 0 or -1, which it seems was a bad assumption.

              • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:21AM (2 children)

                Hmmm...

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by DECbot on Tuesday June 09 2020, @02:26AM (1 child)

                  by DECbot (832) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @02:26AM (#1005070) Journal

                  If you do it, make sure to post a banner explaining what happened or you'll get a billion but reports.

                  --
                  cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
                  • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:51AM

                    by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:51AM (#1005094)

                    ...or you'll get a billion butt reports.

                    FTFY.

            • (Score: 5, Interesting) by hemocyanin on Monday June 08 2020, @06:10PM (2 children)

              by hemocyanin (186) on Monday June 08 2020, @06:10PM (#1004927) Journal

              I'm one of those who views at -1 all the time. Otherwise a response I may agree with and need to upmod will have the same visibility as GNNA style posts which I don't need to see. There's an enormous issue on this site with people conflating opposing opinions with troll/flamebait posts.

              One way this could somewhat be addressed is to give controversial posts two scores -- a negative and a positive -- and an option to view controversial comments. I've seen posts with 12 or more moderations back and forth at the extreme end. The way things are now, the moderation is mostly controlled by the last mod unless it has gotten up to +4 or 5. Anyway, if a post has a sufficient number opposing moderations, instead of seeing just a "+1", it could show as "-3 | +4" and not be treated in the same way a GNNAish post would be because it is more likely to have that sort of mod war (of course trolls can try to create controversy by upmodding a troll post but if you require 4 or more opposing mods, that would limit that issue).

              • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @07:24PM

                by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @07:24PM (#1004959)

                More excellent thoughts- thank you!

              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:30AM

                There's an enormous issue on this site with people conflating opposing opinions with troll/flamebait posts.

                I'd say that's more a failing in human psychology than anything specific to us.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @05:07PM (3 children)

          I'm not going to read every -1 comment just to see if it needs fixing. Almost nobody does nor will.

          According to a quick check of the db, about one out of ten registered users have that as their default setting. Can't speak to what ACs read at but they don't get mod points, so it doesn't matter.

          Yeah, I get that not many folks enjoy a downmod motivated by butthurt or spite rather than "does this further the discussion in some way" but the only differences between reading -1 posts normally and correcting bad moderations or reading them as part of a mod jury is that not everyone gets to have a say in a mod jury and punishment gets dished out. The former's less work for everyone and doesn't tell anyone they're not entitled to an opinion for the next N days, so it sings to me more personally.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by Common Joe on Monday June 08 2020, @07:25PM (1 child)

            I'm not going to read every -1 comment just to see if it needs fixing. Almost nobody does nor will.

            According to a quick check of the db, about one out of ten registered users have that as their default setting. Can't speak to what ACs read at but they don't get mod points, so it doesn't matter.

            I often read as AC because I'm too lazy to login. (Unless the screen is bothering me, then I login so I'll get "dark mode".) However, if something catches my eye, I'll login and comment or mod something. I should clarify that I clear my cookies upon browser exit which is why I have to login so often.

            • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:07PM

              by hendrikboom (1125) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:07PM (#1005378) Homepage Journal

              I use classical dark mode, in which I get a monospaced green font on a black background.
              It amuses me whenever someone speaks of the "green site".
              For me, this site is green.
              And I let my laptop's browser log me in automatically so I never see the site any other way.

              I have very little use for images.

              -- hendrik

          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @08:58PM

            by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @08:58PM (#1004997)

            And thank you for the db info / stats. :)

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Monday June 08 2020, @08:40PM (13 children)

          by VLM (445) on Monday June 08 2020, @08:40PM (#1004990)

          improperly downmodded

          Interesting idea to toss around:

          Lets say for political discussions there's two divergent worldviews; from a 3rd party sense there is no good or bad mod possible.

          Solution is people can up or down mod either the left or the right mod score but not both.

          As a trivial example: "Donald Trump is the best president in the history of the USA" can't be expressed as a single number; or rephrased the single number is really more of a demographic population survey which means little unless it motivated (or demotivates?) readers into procreating with their spouses. On the other hand, you can usefully express the quality of a post like that using two numbers. My scientific hypothesis is that statement would be hyper triggering to those with clinical levels of Trump Derangement Syndrome so the angry Jewish lesbian types will mod the left opinion point counter to approximately negative six million and from a right wing perspective he's better than the average deep state scumbag or RINO but still isn't quite the "orange Hitler" whom we really need, so that statement would get a tepid +3 or so on the right wing opinion counter.

          Might extend the social voting experiment to users can only pre-select the next six months of votes, so they can mod the left counter or the right counter but not both at the same time (other than alts obviously LOL)

          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @09:05PM

            by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @09:05PM (#1005002)

            Very interesting ideas. In general, this is exactly what I was hoping for here- brainstorming. :)

            My take on your post, and maybe I've filtered it through what I've been thinking for quite a while: a main mod system that really works as it should, and an alternate one that is more of a popular vote, but doesn't affect a comment's visibility.

            As martyb mentioned above, again paraphrasing, these are all good ideas that will require coding and that will take some time, which is quite reasonable.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by MostCynical on Monday June 08 2020, @09:09PM (11 children)

            by MostCynical (2589) on Monday June 08 2020, @09:09PM (#1005005) Journal

            no one can even agree what "left" and "right" even mean.

            --
            “I've learned from experience that asking politely never works unless you have the upper hand.” Daisuke Aramaki, GIS:SAC
            • (Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:57PM (10 children)

              by VLM (445) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:57PM (#1005168)

              In political debate discussions we don't in practice seem to have much trouble.

              In tech type discussions yeah I don't think there's a left/right for something like surface mount soldering vs thru hole soldering as a hobbyist. Or horrible automobile analogies for STEM article commentary.

              Maybe three buckets to throw your moderation vote into: left center right.

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:05PM (7 children)

                In political debate discussions we don't in practice seem to have much trouble.

                Sure we do. You can't mention the word left or right in a national (or smaller) context without some chucklehead insisting that Western Europe's standard of left and right is the entire world's standard and no other standard should ever be used.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:23PM (5 children)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:23PM (#1005274) Journal

                  insisting that Western Europe's standard of left and right is the entire world's standard

                  Or Americans believing that their definition should be the standard and that they have a 'left wing' party. It is left of the extreme right, but there you go. There are other definitions [wikipedia.org] too.

                  --
                  It's always my fault...
                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @11:44PM (4 children)

                    It should be the standard when we're talking domestic stuff, same as any other nation should have their own standard. Trying to make it a global standard defined by the elites for domestic issues is just framing the narrative in an attempt to leverage more control.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:57AM (3 children)

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:57AM (#1005706) Journal

                      This site has commentators from all over the globe and it would probably help if you explained your version of right and left wing.

                      Is North Korea left or right wing, when compared to China for example? How about Vietnam or Kazakhstan? How about where do China and Russia sit in relation to each other on your scale. Is it that anyone outside of the USA is now left wing?

                      Taken from Wikipedia. [wikipedia.org]

                      A variety of distinct left-wing movements existed in American history, including labor movements, the Farmer-Labor movement, various democratic socialist and socialist movements, pacifist movements, and the New Left.

                      Where do these parties sit when compared with the 'left wing' Democratic party? More to the left, more to the right?

                      --
                      It's always my fault...
                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 10 2020, @11:36AM (2 children)

                        Dude, that'd be a totally legit argument if we weren't talking about the most back-seat-driver'd nation in the world as far as politics goes.

                        How China and Russia sit is a global scale issue not a domestic one. It's like if I say I'm heading out to the east for a fishing trip. If I were in the habit of international fishing jaunts you could expect it to mean somewhere in Asia. But I'm not so the farthest it should be taken to possibly mean without clarification is surf fishing in the Atlantic.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:24PM (1 child)

                          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:24PM (#1005800) Journal

                          This discussion has run its course - but we weren't talking about the USA. This is a round-table discussion for the whole community. The suggestion was that 'there was a political discussion'. Nobody mentioned US politics, just politics in general which is entirely valid. You chose to interpret that as US politics, many of us didn't, because the world is much bigger than the USA alone.

                          But your point was well made - there is always some chucklehead who comes along to point that fact out ;-)

                          --
                          It's always my fault...
                • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday June 09 2020, @07:05PM

                  by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @07:05PM (#1005325) Homepage Journal

                  insisting that Western Europe's standard of left and right is the entire world's standard and no other standard should ever be used.

                  Oh if only t'were that simple! Are we talking the Western Europe of today, 30 years ago, or 75 years ago? And what part of Western Europe? It's not a country you know, as much as some Europhiles would like to think. There is no standard.

                  Yeah, yeah, I know I'm preaching to the choir, Buzz. I was just feeling like a smartass!

                  --
                  Where did that thought come from? And that one? What about this one? Woah, man...
              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:15PM (1 child)

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:15PM (#1005269) Journal

                From here in Europe there are 2 right-wing parties in the US - you see, there is no confusion at all.

                But Americans tend to think that we are all communists because we have a working healthcare system.

                --
                It's always my fault...
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @07:58PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @07:58PM (#1005347)

                  Give it a few more years and those Americans will be the minority. They might already be, universal healthcare has finally entered the national conversation in the US.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:40AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:40AM (#1005061)

          But see, that's the whole problem! Readers with mod points won't see a comment that has been improperly downmodded below their reading threshold!

          Another easy fix here. If you have mod points, read at -1. The quality and value of this site is dependent on the registered users to use their mod points. Soylent News is People.

          I get it. Who wants to wade through lots of garbage all the time, when you can just look at the good stuff?

          But how do we come to the conclusion that something is "the good stuff?" By your peers reading at -1 and modding stuff up/down.

          If you're dissatisfied with how others are modding stuff when they read at -1, then be part of the community and add your voice to theirs. Otherwise it seems like you're abdicating your power and blaming others when things aren't to your liking.

          This is a community. One with many voices, frequent disagreement, vitriolic exchanges and obnoxious jerks. It also has a bunch of people with useful and interesting things to say.

          I read at -1 to limit the impact of the obnoxious jerks and obvious garbage/spam because I want *my* community to have robust, interesting (that doesn't mean agreement) and useful discussions.

          As a member of this community, perhaps *you* might want to do so too. We'd likely all benefit.

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @05:04PM (50 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @05:04PM (#1004890)

        I recommended a while back, and still do, that all downmoders (and we know who they are!) be forced to write a small paragraph explaining why. That will get them off my back too.

        Oh, and having the underrated mod not count for karma is kinda dangerous. It makes it possible to continually downmod a post against someone's karma.

        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @05:10PM (27 children)

          Hmm, fair point about the Underrated/Overrated mods. Not that karma retention is much of an issue for even the most dedicated registered trolls.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @05:33PM

            Wiseass mods. Shame I can't +1 Funny a moderation.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @05:57PM (25 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @05:57PM (#1004923)

            I main point is that downmodding should carry a price. Make 'em explain it. Or expose them and let the victim face his assailant.

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Monday June 08 2020, @06:12PM

              by hemocyanin (186) on Monday June 08 2020, @06:12PM (#1004929) Journal

              All you'll get is copypasta gobbedlygook in the text entry field and it will make readability worse.

            • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @06:14PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @06:14PM (#1004930)

              There ya go - have one of your precious "Disagree" mods. Are we correctly having a debate now?

            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @09:07PM (5 children)

              by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @09:07PM (#1005004)

              I'd love to know who downmodded this "troll". I think there are a few bad eggs here- but only a few.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:18AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @12:18AM (#1005043)

                It's one of my fans. Don't give it a second thought

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:07PM (3 children)

                There are a lot more wiseasses though. Usually a safe bet that's what happened in discussions like these.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:40PM (2 children)

                  by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:40PM (#1005411)

                  No doubt. So should I mod everyone on SN -1 Troll to make sure I retaliate? (obviously ridiculous).

                  How about they get a month's vacation from mod points?

                  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @11:47PM (1 child)

                    Oh hell no. Ain't no way I'm mod banning someone for anything but Spam abuse unless policy changes.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:04PM

                      by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:04PM (#1005792)

                      Okay, that's news to me. I mistakenly thought that "Troll" abuse would result in modbanning.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:36PM (16 children)

              I main point is that downmodding should carry a price.

              Why? That's not a dig, I'd genuinely like to hear your reasons.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @08:17PM (3 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @08:17PM (#1005354)

                Because it imposes a cost on the "victim". I say pass it on to the accuser/aggressor. Make 'em show just cause

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @11:48PM (2 children)

                  What cost? Beyond a negligible karma hit that's easily made up I mean.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:09PM (1 child)

                    by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:09PM (#1005793)

                    You're very intelligent, and really good verbally, but I think you're caught up in the nitty-gritty argument points.

                    Let's go big-picture:

                    1) Why do people spend time and mental effort to write here (or any blog/forum) at all ever- what's their motivation, and what's the payoff?

                    2) Why is there a mod system at all?

                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 12 2020, @03:40PM

                      I'm not caught up in minutiae, it's a very important question to know the answer to if you're going to take that position. I'm interested in the answer.

                      1) Lots of reasons ranging from the desire to piss others off, to the desire to inform them, to the desire to convert them to your position, to the desire to crowdsource the debugging of their own position.

                      2) Inertia partly. It was what we did on the old site and what we expected. Other than that, a lot of folks dislike comments they consider of low quality (and almost nobody is completely immune to considering disagreement a qualification for that). I'd get by just fine without anything but a Spam button but I'm aware that I'm in the minority in my ability to read something I don't like and not have it ruin my mood.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @08:21PM (7 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @08:21PM (#1005357)

                And furthermore, downmodding is negative/bad karma on the downmodder's part. They should lose a little too for the desire to inflict "punishment".

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @11:49PM (2 children)

                  Wishing to inflict punishment on them because them wishing to inflict it on others is wrong? Might wanna rethink that.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:37PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:37PM (#1005891)

                    No, that's not what is happening in most cases. The downmodders are taking personal offense and are lashing out. They would obliterate the post if they could, and this is just their way of expressing it. You would never want to give real power, like a badge and a gun, to these kinds of people.

                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 12 2020, @03:44PM

                      Who does the punishing is irrelevant. The desire to see others punished for something that annoys you is the desire to see others punished for something that annoys you, whether it's you doing it or me doesn't matter.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:15PM (3 children)

                  by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:15PM (#1005794)

                  Frustration point: I wish I knew who you are because you, and I have NO idea how many other ACs there are, and I are in agreement. I don't know if there's 1 good AC, or many.

                  TMB and others who started this site are brilliant, and will always have a clever if not brilliant, but sometimes misguided reply to almost any criticism. I'm not sure what's behind the resistance to change- other than what martyb wrote here (somewhere) that of course changes would involve coding time and there are other priorities.

                  I've asked TMB a couple of big-picture questions and I'll be very interested in his response, if he responds at all. Like, why do people bother writing anything here at all- what's the motivation? And, why is there a mod system at all?

                  I think people, in general, get very caught up in point-to-point argument and miss the big-picture.

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 12 2020, @03:53PM (2 children)

                    My resistance to change is because that's just how I think. If I'm going to make a change, I need to be convinced it's going to be an improvement. I don't have any silly ideas like the way we do things now is somehow sacred but the one advocating for change is necessarily assuming the duty of convincing me if they want me arguing their position as well. I'm intentionally a tough sell on non-trivial things because it's a really good way to keep from making things worse and having to fix them afterwards.

                    And laziness-based inertia of course.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday June 12 2020, @04:09PM (1 child)

                      by RS3 (6367) on Friday June 12 2020, @04:09PM (#1006926)

                      Solid wisdom! I'm honored that you've heard me, esp. with all of my scattered rants. I should just make a journal entry and let the rats fight over the cheese.

                      One of my butt-hurts in life is that people don't listen to me. Just this morning I'm dealing with an IT "emergency" because someone didn't listen to me when I told them what IP address to assign to a printer. They're so much smarter than me, and I'm the only admin for them. They keep choosing IPs in the DHCP range. Gee, can't figure out why the whole network is slow, printer doesn't work, etc. "But teh Internets said this IP is okay!" It's the story of my life.

                      Thanks again, and we all truly appreciate all of your hard work! Well, most of us...

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 13 2020, @09:13AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 13 2020, @09:13AM (#1007357)

                        You know, I don't know if it is better or worse that they picked on in the private range. Last time I heard of that here some guy in marketing complained their unauthorized printer couldn't get an IP address and 1.2.3.4/5 "worked intermittently" when manually assigned.

              • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:54PM (3 children)

                by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:54PM (#1005426)

                At the risk of becoming annoying with my repeating this, 1 downmod removes my post from many people's view. Why bother to spend (waste?) time writing here if people can't see my post? And taken to the logical extent, what would this site be if nobody writes?

                Much of my life I've been fairly libertarian. I'd be beyond happy to live in a society of good people who treated each other well and didn't commit offenses against each other. We'd be free of laws, police, courts, prisons, etc. Reality, however, can bite the butt. IE, there are people who just simply need to be locked up for the good of the rest.

                In an anarchy I could arm myself and ventilate attackers (unless they get me first of course). Here, it's all sneak attacks. I have no idea who to retaliate against.

                And quite frankly, it's not how I want to live, including interaction here.

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @11:55PM (2 children)

                  Dude, in your last hundred comments, you had a whopping one comment sitting below a score of 1 and I just spent a mod point to bump that one up because I thought it should be sitting higher. You're not mad because you're being silenced, it's just kneejerk annoyance.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 2, Disagree) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:52PM (1 child)

                    by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:52PM (#1005818)

                    I'm more altruistic than you realize. I think a lot of interesting / intelligent people are warded off by the current mod system, and I'd bet it's why there are so many AC comments on SN in general. Think about the long-term effect: sensitivity and intelligence often go hand-in-hand. So as you lose what I consider to be the better people, you're left with: mostly thugs. Thugs can be intelligent, for sure- I've known many, but not people I spend much time with. It's y'all's system- I just wanted to be sure that y'all see it from our non-admin trenches perspective.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @05:10PM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @05:10PM (#1004899)

          Just remind everyone - who are these poor down-trodden posters consistently -1'd out of existence?

          Whose BATSHIT views are not appearing on YOUR page???

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 08 2020, @05:31PM (5 children)

            Nobody's consistently. Happens to mine on a regular basis but by no means most of them. Ditto pretty much everyone else who participates in heated discussions or has opinions that others find repugnant. We're not perfect at moderating by any means but we're a hell of a lot better than most places I've seen.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @06:06PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @06:06PM (#1004926)

              You proudly admit to being a troll. Now go sit in the corner.

            • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @06:12PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @06:12PM (#1004928)

              So - since there is no overall trashing - what's the fucking point of making a bunch of bullshit rules - presumably for somebody else to enforce?

              Fuck you management pricks.

            • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday June 08 2020, @09:20PM (2 children)

              by RS3 (6367) on Monday June 08 2020, @09:20PM (#1005007)

              I have no numbers but my unquantified observation is that you get undeservedly modded "Troll" the most, and frankly it bugs me. But I'm also aware that you could do something about it- in agreement with all admins of course.

              (I have intentionally _not_ drawn a conclusion here- there are many possibilities, and likely a combination thereof.)

              • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:23PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:23PM (#1005179)

                I have no numbers but my unquantified observation is that you get undeservedly modded "Troll" the most, and frankly it bugs me.

                You have the power to fix that. Browse at -1 when you have mod points -- and use them!

                • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:59PM

                  by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:59PM (#1005821)

                  I do occasionally. But I come here to relax and de-stress (idiot me!), not break up bar fights.

          • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @06:14PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @06:14PM (#1004932)

            That would be anyone who doesn't toe the MSNBC woke line. You know, the one that says its too dangerous to have a birthday party but imperative to gather in six figure groups to protest an issue Americans are in complete agreement on. Nor should we discuss the damage to scientific credibility when public health experts condemn the former and applaud the latter.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by khallow on Monday June 08 2020, @06:37PM (7 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday June 08 2020, @06:37PM (#1004940) Journal

          and we know who they are!

          That's the thing about anonymous modding. You don't know who they are!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @07:19PM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @07:19PM (#1004954)

            The ones I encounter are an extremely obvious *squad*

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @08:57PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @08:57PM (#1004996)

              ...of strawmen? You poor oppressed AC.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:24PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:24PM (#1005180)

              I don't know. I usually don't mod you down Fusty. I just call you out when you're sockpuppeting as AC.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @08:11PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @08:11PM (#1005352)

                You're not calling anybody out. You know nothing

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:00PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @09:00PM (#1005371) Journal
              The ones you encounter might not even post.
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:38PM (1 child)

            Would it help if you did or would it just lead to more flamewars?

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:53PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:53PM (#1005255) Journal
              Not at all. You can see how whiny some people are about a few mods now. And then there's the APK types who'll stalk anyone they can identify.
        • (Score: 2) by Common Joe on Monday June 08 2020, @07:28PM (5 children)

          I agree with you, but implementation could be challenging. What's to stop someone from just putting in a space character (or several space characters) as a reason?

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @08:59PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @08:59PM (#1004999)

            Because fuck you.

            Have you thought more than 0 levels deep on having a 2nd level of comments on the comments?

            • (Score: 2, Touché) by janrinok on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:28PM (2 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @05:28PM (#1005279) Journal

              Because fuck you.

              Ah, the sign that someone cannot yet explain how to solve this problem. There is nothing like a well argued, coherent response when someone points out a possible flaw in your plan...

              --
              It's always my fault...
              • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday June 09 2020, @07:12PM (1 child)

                by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @07:12PM (#1005329) Homepage Journal

                I took that as another example of what someone might write as their reason for a downmod, not a direct response to the GP.

                --
                Where did that thought come from? And that one? What about this one? Woah, man...
                • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:15PM

                  by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:15PM (#1005826)

                  Just to be clear, I certainly didn't post the AC comment, nor would I- it's not my reason for being here.

                  I had the opposite reaction (vulgarity aside)- I took it as a (vulgar) response to a dismissive.

                  A possible better response by Common Joe might have been: "you have some good ideas. It might take some effort to implement them, and many potential revisions to get it right, but again, it's an idea worthy of consideration."

                  Make any sense?

                  People crave self-determination, at the very least, some sense of having some say. You could argue it's pointless, just appeasing the masses. I just saw in the news where in Seattle protesters have "stormed" city hall and demanded mayor's resignation and de-funding of the police. My reaction was: shouldn't there be a democratic process?

                  One of the things I consider as a huge flaw in the US system is that once we vote someone into office, it's much too difficult to vote them out.

                  This system is owned and run by the admins, each of whom have varying degrees of power, authority, decision-making, etc. My only reason for writing what I've written is that I don't think they fully understand what it's like being in the "trenches". I have much more to write, but no time...

          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:57AM

            by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:57AM (#1005097)

            Uh, moderation?

    • (Score: 5, Funny) by maxwell demon on Monday June 08 2020, @03:44PM

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Monday June 08 2020, @03:44PM (#1004858) Journal

      Soylent needs to start enforcing the misuse of mod points

      So you think there is not enough misuse of mod points?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday June 09 2020, @03:26PM (4 children)

      by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 09 2020, @03:26PM (#1005207) Journal

      In the old days Slashdot handled that situation with the random award of meta-moderation points, where you moderated mods others had given out. It seemed to work well.

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @04:41PM (3 children)

        Nah, mostly it entrenched groupthink even more deeply. Folks don't become any more intellectually honest just because you add "meta".

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @11:40PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2020, @11:40PM (#1005511)

          Obviously, the solution is meta-meta-moderation and a meta-meta-meta-moderation system to make sure that is working properly too.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 09 2020, @11:58PM (1 child)

            Should probably make it meta-human-meta-moderation. It'd take the Flash to go through every comment and still have time to do anything enjoyable.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:00AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:00AM (#1005665)

              Yes, that's the spirit! Code that bitch up in ActionScript.

              But just in case anyone missed it because I wasn't obvious enough, I was going for humor in the GP in the form an implied turtle argument [wikipedia.org]

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