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posted by janrinok on Wednesday July 13, @06:32AM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]

After experiencing extensive spamming, ad-hominem attacks, and trolling it became necessary to protect the site by preventing all Anonymous Coward (AC) comments by anyone who was not logged in. This was a reluctant measure but it proved to be 99.9% effective. It was however, far from ideal. It partially isolated many of the responsible ACs who contribute regularly to the site and provide a valuable input to many of our discussions. They are still able to use journals for posting as the editors of SoylentNews have no control over the content of journals or the comments made in them.

I sought an alternative solution and provided access to some of the stories on the front page and marked them as AC Friendly. I had hoped by demonstrating to those abusing the site that there was a simple solution that they would perhaps cease, or at least return to previously manageable levels. Unfortunately this was not to be. The abuse restarted almost immediately and has continued in every AC Friendly story that has been published. It has clearly demonstrated that this isn't a case of the abusers defending free speech or any other laudable and justifiable aim but simply an attempt to prevent the majority of the community from holding any form of discussion at all. I am not continuing the AC Friendly stories on the main page with the sole exception of this Meta story.

I next tried to switch the attempts to include our AC community around by providing stories from the front page initially to my own journal, but subsequently to the journal of a new account named 'AC Friendly'. This was rather labour intensive and was not something that I could continue to do in the long term. These efforts have been ignored and do not seem to be of any interest to the AC community. Likewise I will not continue this effort unless there is evidence that it is wanted.

There are many perfectly understandable reasons for wishing to post comments as an Anonymous Coward. This was recognised when the original Slashdot code was written and provision was made for such individuals in the software. It is a straightforward matter to log in to the site and then automatically post as AC from then on. This both protects the site itself and those using it. If your justification is that you do not trust the staff then I must question why you would want to remain on the site.

Free speech is an essential part of our ethos but it is necessary to realise that free speech and anonymity are not necessarily related. We want people to be able to express their views without fear of harassment, abuse, or unfair moderation. Only by doing so can we truly claim to have free speech. It means that even those with whom we strongly disagree have the right to express their opinions. Subsequent attempts to argue against those views should not involve any form of harassment of the individual making them. Any attempt to prevent someone from expressing their views is directly counter to the very concept of 'free speech'.

Likewise, anonymity is something to be valued. Attempts to unmask either named or anonymous accounts is unacceptable to this site's administration and will not be tolerated. Those who publish information that appears credible to us must be deterred from continuing by whatever means are necessary. We cannot verify every claim made regarding the personal information of a community member and we must therefore assume that it is has some basis in truth and is an attempt at doxing. It does not matter where the information stated in the claim originates or whether it has been stated on this site or elsewhere previously. If it has the potential to unmask a community member it will be treated as doxing. The site will do all it can to protect community members. We are also fortunate that in the 8 years we have been operating we have only had one account that felt it was an acceptable thing to do. That account has been closed.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the toxic environment that has developed on the site has cost us numerous valued community members - both staff and regular contributors of submissions and comments. It cannot be allowed to continue. There is also no doubt that there is a straightforward and simple solution, and that is to prevent AC participation without the creation of an account. The software was designed to do this and it is wasted effort trying to find alternatives when it is unnecessary to do so.

There has been quite a bit of discussion over the last week or so. We have had a former community member (who was also once a member of staff) return to the site with his own story. Initially he chose to remain anonymous but subsequently decided to continue his comments under his username. I encourage you all to read the link given and the subsequent comments given in reply. I am very grateful that has taken the effort to explain why he has did what he has done and I welcome him back to our community if he choses to stay. As part of my reply to him I made the following statement:

It is vitally important that everyone is able to express their own point of view without harassment or intimidation or even unfair moderation. We do not all agree with each other. That is the same in any community. But by full, frank and honest discussion we can at least understand each others point of view and possibly identify potential solutions. The freedom of expression is still essential on the site - but it can only exist if we can ensure that it can be conducted in a suitable environment.

I stand by that statement. Since that comment was published I have received other views and experiences of the toxicity of our site from a significant number of individuals, including regular community members and both current and former staff. Quite simply, if we do not change then in all likelihood we will not survive much longer. It is not too late to make the necessary changes but time is running out.

I promised you that no changes would be made to how the site operates without first giving you all the chance to express your own opinions. But you have to decide now which path you want the site to follow. This cannot be a simple vote - as an extreme example we have no way of verifying that AC comments are not the result of a single person, or if some sock-puppets are still active on the site. Everyone has the right to be heard. However, let me point out a few rules:

  • Any attempt to disrupt this Meta by spamming, ad-hominem attacks or trolling abuse will count as someone expressing an opinion that we should insist on accounts for all those wishing to post as AC. If anyone thinks that by abusing the site they will be helping their case they are mistaken. However, such actions will clearly show to the community that those who have been making the most noise about being prevented from expressing themselves are not actually fighting for free speech, but rather they are determined to prevent you from exercising your right to it.
  • It will be pointless to keep repeating the same views as an AC. We cannot separate them. You want to be anonymous, you choose to have the account ID #1, and this, unfortunately, is a direct consequence to that decision.
  • All views will be collated and then a decision will be made based upon them by the staff. This will include the SN Board who may accept that decision, but who have the right to choose the path that the site eventually takes. It may not be the decision that any of us want.

This is an important issue. It cannot be a simple vote but I encourage as many people as possible to express their opinions. It might be the last chance for you to do so. The Meta will stay active for several days to at least mid-week - but if it is abused excessively then it will be taken down and we will be forced to make a decision base on whatever views we already have or can get from elsewhere. I will endeavour to move the Meta in the story queue so that it remains on the front page. Many of our community log on at different times of the day or only on specific days. I would like to give everyone a chance to see the Meta story and to make their views known.

This is your opportunity - please do not waste it.

[Ed's Comment: See bold text - warning 2022-07-10 12:36 UTC]

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Amazon Cancels or Delays Plans for at Least 16 Warehouses This Year 66 comments

Amazon Cancels Or Delays Plans For At Least 16 Warehouses This Year:

After spending billions doubling the size of its fulfillment network during the pandemic, Amazon finds itself in a perilous position.

In the first quarter of 2022, the e-commerce giant reported a $3.8 billion net loss after raking in an $8.1 billion profit in Q1 2021. That includes $6 billion in added costs — the bulk of which can be traced back to that same fulfillment network.

Amazon (NASDAQ: AMZN) CFO Brian Olsavsky said the company chose to expand its warehouse network based on "the high end of a very volatile demand outlook." So far this year, though, it has shut down or delayed plans for at least 16 scheduled facilities.

"We currently have some excess capacity in the network that we need to grow into," Olsavsky told investors on Amazon's Q1 2022 earnings call. "So, we've brought down our build expectations. Note again that many of the build decisions were made 18 to 24 months ago, so there are limitations on what we can adjust midyear."

[...] If you're wondering how that's possible, consider Amazon's unmatched turnover rate. A New York Times investigation uncovered that even before the pandemic, it was as high as 150%. That means there are more employees leaving Amazon warehouses each year than there are being hired.

[Ed's Comment: AC Friendly withdrawn. You can blame you-know-who for the spamming]

OT: AC Friendlies... by Anonymous Coward
This discussion was created by janrinok (52) for logged-in users only, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fliptop on Saturday July 09, @10:13AM (67 children)

    by fliptop (1666) on Saturday July 09, @10:13AM (#1259054) Journal

    Having more rules does suck, but what's the better alternative?

    --
    To be oneself, and unafraid whether right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformity
    • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @11:16AM (52 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @11:16AM (#1259067)

      Bring back aristarchus! Nothing is going to change until you admit the primary mistake. Free speech is that, or it is not. By banning aristarchus, you violated the primary value of SoylentNews, and your pathetic attempts to justify it only drive people who believe in away. And attract right-wing nut-jobs even more.

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by janrinok on Saturday July 09, @11:27AM (5 children)

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09, @11:27AM (#1259071) Journal
        • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Sunday July 10, @10:28PM

          by Mykl (1112) on Sunday July 10, @10:28PM (#1259597)

          Sometimes I wish it was possible for some posts to be modded +6

        • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @05:01AM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @05:01AM (#1259657)

          There's a simple solution to this problem. Just add "are you aristarchus" to the log in screen and only allow people in that aren't him. Simple.

          • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:28AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:28AM (#1259673)

            I am not aristarchus. But janrinok says I am! What am I to do?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 23, @01:50PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 23, @01:50PM (#1262482)

              Create an account, make interesting, insightful and positive posts, and enjoy the positive karma

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12, @01:29PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12, @01:29PM (#1260139)

            An even easier solution is to check for the Evil Bit. If found ghost the post. Easy!

      • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @11:45AM (20 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @11:45AM (#1259077)

        Tell us, aristarchus, does the end justify the means?

        • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:20PM (19 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:20PM (#1259087)

          No, but sometimes, the means fit the end. Look it up. If I was aristarchus.

          • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:29PM (18 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:29PM (#1259089)

            Your means do fit the end of helping to destroy SN, and to make everyone miserable in the process. If you were aristarchus.

            • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:43PM (17 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:43PM (#1259092)

              Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, anonymous comment posting has temporarily been disabled. You can still login to post. However, if bad posting continues from your IP or Subnet that privilege could be revoked as well. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner or login and improve your posting. If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, please email admin@soylentnews.org with your MD5'd IPID and SubnetID, which are "2455a1fac082342dce30cb3473217e37" and "ab775e9002ccf25a4c8ac828aae8f4a6".

              And would not SoylentNews, the basiion of free speech on the Internet, deserve to be destroyed, for the banning of aristarchus? Let us be clear about what is at stake here.

              sorry about all the attempted censorship at the head. Had to change IP outputs three times. Just to avoid SoylentNews Censorship. Bad Sn, bad. And, average Soylentil, if you were permabanned, for no good reason, what would you do?

              • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:55PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:55PM (#1259097)

                And would not SoylentNews, the basiion of free speech on the Internet, deserve to be destroyed, for the banning of aristarchus?

                No!

              • (Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @01:22PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @01:22PM (#1259108)

                And would not SoylentNews, the basiion of free speech on the Internet, deserve to be destroyed, for the banning of aristarchus?

                The aristarchus that I kindly asked to stay on S/N is dead.
                His slow death started with his compulsion of mocking the "enemy" and he deceased at the moment he had nothing else to produce but invective against his perceived enemies.
                After that moment, only the undead zombie of his persona still continued to haunt S/N with nothing else but stench.

                Let us be clear about what is at stake here.

                Nothing is at stake here, you're deluded if you think S/N has any consequence in this world.

                Just to avoid SoylentNews Censorship

                And? What's your point?

                And, average Soylentil, if you were permabanned, for no good reason, what would you do?

                Move on to something that actually matters. Not like you CV is gonna ever mention your involvement in S/N.
                And, maybe stop feeling righteous in general.

              • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Sulla on Sunday July 10, @10:06PM (13 children)

                by Sulla (5173) on Sunday July 10, @10:06PM (#1259595) Journal

                It is not necessary for Soylentnews to be the bastion of free speech. I personally would prefer it if it were, but its clearly not a viable model when you have barbarians at the gates. If you want freeze peach then go to 4Chan and you can have it.

                The concern with all regulations where something is a judgment call, is how do those in control define it. As we have seen for years now, we can't agree what the meaning of repetitive or off-topic are, how can we agree what spam is?

                Sometimes purges and proscriptions are needed for a free republic to survive. The editors which I feel both sides of the political spectrum of posters tend to trust should do their best and we should support them, rather than argue for Hannibal to be a Senator.

                --
                Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
                • (Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:32AM (5 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:32AM (#1259674)

                  This is, of course, what destroyed the Roman Res Publica, much as such advice from a rebel and pro-business Republican will destroy SoylentNews.

                  signed,
                  Marius

                  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Sulla on Monday July 11, @04:09PM (2 children)

                    by Sulla (5173) on Monday July 11, @04:09PM (#1259813) Journal

                    I set in place standards that would prevent men of ability from climbing the ranks too fast and taking a run for dictator, or in your case posting endless spam. The death of the Republic was at the hands of the most able Roman ever born, a man who was a supporter of Marius and I neglected to eliminate. That man was Julius Caesar, and the only thing that could stop a man as able as himself was hubris, he neglected to heed the warnings Jove sent to his wife in a dream.

                    Your purges removed half of the able senators who could have held the Republic together, and my proscriptions removed the rest in order to restore balance. I could not have expected a man such as Caesar to rise. Better than Pompe in tactics, Cicero in rhetoric, and more wise than Cato.

                    Aristarchus is no Caesar

                    --
                    Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
                    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday July 11, @05:39PM (1 child)

                      by JoeMerchant (3937) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11, @05:39PM (#1259842)

                      Caesar knew: to accumulate personal wealth and power, one must distribute both liberally.

                      --
                      Україна досі не є частиною Росії.
                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:13PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:13PM (#1259846)

                        Bah, liberals.

                  • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday July 11, @04:11PM (1 child)

                    by Sulla (5173) on Monday July 11, @04:11PM (#1259814) Journal

                    Also to my point, why would someone bother moderating this as disagree? I gave it an underrated mod to negate. Empty words stand for themselves, and need not be moderated. If it was thought to be spam it should have been moderated as such, and not disagree

                    --
                    Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
                    • (Score: 2, Disagree) by FatPhil on Wednesday July 13, @10:21AM

                      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Wednesday July 13, @10:21AM (#1260448) Homepage
                      Underrated does not "negate" a disagree mod, you numpty.
                      I'm sure whoever modded it disagree didn't think it was spam, and therefore your final sentence is equally irrelevant.
                      Whoever modded it disagree probably disagreed with it, nothing more, nothing less, and if so disagree was the ultimate in correct modereration choice.
                      --
                      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Monday July 11, @05:35PM (6 children)

                  by JoeMerchant (3937) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11, @05:35PM (#1259840)

                  !!! Warning Offtopic Warning!!!

                  >both sides of the political spectrum of posters tend to trust

                  Why do people attempt to reduce politics to a one dimensional value?

                  Semi-quoting from Interstellar: "What's your waist size? And your inseam? So, it takes two numbers to measure your ass, but only one number to define my child's future?"

                  While some politicians are, indeed and in capability, one dimensional, or less, most of them have varying positions on a number of essentially orthogonal issues. Yes, even Ron DeSantis is more than just 99% Trump, he has little nuances here and there to alternately love and hate.

                  And in the voting public, while there are those who only look at R or D on the ballot to make their decisions, many voters, perhaps even a majority, do actually consider the candidates attributes beyond their party affiliation - and this is far from a one-dimensional landscape.

                  If we stop talking, and acting, like one dimensional simpletons, it's conceivable that one day we might start removing the one dimensional simpletons from political power.

                  /rant

                  --
                  Україна досі не є частиною Росії.
                  • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:15PM (4 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:15PM (#1259847)

                    True, but it does all compress down to a boolean scalar in the end.

                    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 13, @01:35AM (3 children)

                      by JoeMerchant (3937) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 13, @01:35AM (#1260357)

                      Most choose not to decide, but they still have made a choice.

                      --
                      Україна досі не є частиною Росії.
                      • (Score: 2, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday July 13, @01:09PM (1 child)

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 13, @01:09PM (#1260487) Homepage Journal

                        Wow. Couldn't you use that in the lyrics of a song or something? lol

                        --
                        Your private safe room in the back of your mind? Trump pooped in it.
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14, @03:02AM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14, @03:02AM (#1260697)

                          Yeah, in "Did You Ever Have to Make Up Your Mind?" by John Sebastian.

                      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14, @02:59AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14, @02:59AM (#1260696)

                        Don't it always seem to go
                        That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone?
                        They paved paradise
                        Put up a parking lot

                        - Big Yellow Taxi Joni Mitchell

                  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by FatPhil on Wednesday July 13, @10:38AM

                    by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Wednesday July 13, @10:38AM (#1260450) Homepage
                    The problem's not just one-dimentionality, it's being binary. I could put up with a continuity on one dimension, but the vast majority are so intent on distancing themselves from the other end that they just fling themselves at the endpoints, no matter if cranial damage occurs when so doing. In reality, the typical 2d political compass should map most people who aren't nutjobs into a kind of croissant shape, which is nearly a horseshoe, which is nearly a line, and thus for all intents and purposes can be approximated as one dimentional. So the 1d-ness wasn't the intrinsic problem, as long as you understand that that 1d manifold is embedded in a 2-or-more-dementianal space.

                    Alas, the typical 2d political compass has some oversights in its scoring which fail to modify one axis because they think the answer only affects the other axis. This lets some people end up with absurd coordinates which are logically impossible. For example, all absolute statements about how an economy should be run are *definitionally* authoritarian, because without authoritarianism you can't achieve your economic goals, as others will prefer to not go along with them. The bottom left and bottom right corners are *impossible*.
                    --
                    Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
              • (Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Thursday July 14, @03:53PM

                by Nobuddy (1626) on Thursday July 14, @03:53PM (#1260839)

                "for no good reason"

                gonna express doubt, based on your post here. You need to grasp the simple concept: My house, my rules.

                If you don't like the house rules, go elsewhere. You don't try to find an open window to enter so you can break the rules again.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:49PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:49PM (#1259095)

        I see you support the scorched earth principle, you disagree with a decision made by the moderators and therefore the whole community must suffer?

        There are bigger issues out in the world, some of them discussed in good faith on this site, and I cannot quite fathom how it must feel to have to punish the many innocent for a perceived slight by the few. It does very much look like the situation where the villain puts the gun to an innocent bystander's head and tells the protagonist that it is their fault that the bystander gets shot by not opening the vault.

        That is not the way to go about it!

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:52PM (16 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:52PM (#1259096)

        Aristarchus is why I stopped posting under a name. He was one of the worst actors on the site. Sure you had outright spam, but for the most part that's business as usual on the Internet and you could collapse that

        • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @07:48PM (9 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @07:48PM (#1259251)

          Aristarchus came to prove that free speech can be easily sabotaged by the convenience of collective punishment.

          If people didn't want to see his comments, all they had to do was "foe" him, and hide all foes with the modifiers in their preferences. With him and TMB gone, they may as well shut down the place, it's just becoming someone's personal echo chamber

          • (Score: 5, Interesting) by khallow on Saturday July 09, @09:55PM (4 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09, @09:55PM (#1259286) Journal

            Aristarchus came to prove that free speech can be easily sabotaged by the convenience of collective punishment.

            Then he failed. There are various confounding factors, such as deliberately breaking SN rules that got him.

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @10:07PM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @10:07PM (#1259290)

              No, he didn't fail. Posting requires an account now. That was the intent, force collective punishment. Worked perfectly

              • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:34AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:34AM (#1259675)

                Look to the tail end of this discussion. That is where the caul will tell! Boil, boil, trouble and toil, how does he janrinok go?

              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday July 13, @05:57AM (1 child)

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 13, @05:57AM (#1260399) Journal

                Posting requires an account now

                No it doesn't - there are lots of ACs posting in this discussion. You do not all have accounts. Your false claims are probably a sign that you cannot make a sensible justification to counter the path that you have decided we are going to take. No such decision has been made.

                • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @09:54PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @09:54PM (#1260628)

                  You're so weird! I see all sorts of stories "for logged-in users only"

                  And we don't decide your path, only you can do that, the choice is yours, not ours, and you cannot abdicate the responsibility for the choices you make

          • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @12:44AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @12:44AM (#1259333)

            He's a pseudo intellectual. I doubt he thought things through that far

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12, @02:20AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12, @02:20AM (#1260011)

              That is not how you spell "Greek".

          • (Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Sunday July 10, @07:28AM

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 10, @07:28AM (#1259395) Journal
            That does not provide protection for those that he chose to dox. He was not banned for his political views.
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Gaaark on Monday July 11, @09:38PM

            by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11, @09:38PM (#1259925) Journal

            With him and TMB gone, they may as well shut down the place

            Holy feck. aristarchus hasn't mattered for AGES. He stopped being intelligent several years ago.
            Unfortunately, TMB was drawn in by whatever and turned bad: he just started being a negative factor: it would be nice to have him back as he was in the beginning.

            Ari? Fuck him. He doesn't matter because he stopped being intelligent and just became a whiny, pitiful bitch. Sorry to say, but i calls 'em as i sees 'em. Haters gonna hate and he's full of hate... and stupidity.

            I'm still here because i'm drawing from MDC as my sig shows: i fell into a negative trap and almost got lost. Luckily, MDC was in 'our' lives and helped me get clear headed.

            And Ari: if you find I'm not being civil to you, it's because i stopped trying looong ago. Time for you to grow up.

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @09:55PM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @09:55PM (#1259285)

          Did aristarchus use logic and facts to prove you wrong? Must have been painful.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @12:47AM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @12:47AM (#1259336)

            No, he muddied the responses with stupid posts to the point where it was a significant pain to sort through his posts to get to the real responses to my posts. As much as I dislike khalow, at least he makes legitimate points from time to time and honestly believes what he posts.

            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @04:33PM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @04:33PM (#1259500)

              Sorry your ego is so fragile.

              • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @05:21PM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @05:21PM (#1259513)

                Judging from the fact that you got banned and I didn't, it's pretty clear who has the fragile ego.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:37AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:37AM (#1259676)

                  I fail to see how being banned relates to ego. I mean, if I wanted to be banned, OK. But you are saying not being banned means you are right, so your ego is not involved? This makes no sense. Please try to make more sense. And fuck janrinok, the Banner.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @02:03PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @02:03PM (#1259781)

                    Only one of us was so desperate for attention to fill the void in it ego that we won't up banned.

      • (Score: 4, Touché) by Gaaark on Saturday July 09, @09:40PM (3 children)

        by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09, @09:40PM (#1259281) Journal

        aristarchus hasn't had a decent, intelligent thing to say in QUITE A WHILE.

        Haven't missed ari. Nope. nope

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @09:53PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @09:53PM (#1259284)

          Maybe that is because he is Perma-banned?

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Gaaark on Saturday July 09, @11:23PM

            by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09, @11:23PM (#1259305) Journal

            And he is perma-banned because he stopped contributing intelligent, well thought out conversations and started just going stupid!

            He had warning. He could have stepped back and re-thought things. I, myself, tried to get him to rethink where he was going: from intelligence and humour to whatever it is he is now. Gollum. Full of hate.

            He is gone and SN is better off. Good riddance. Much rather the gentleman MDC was here. The good die young, i guess..

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday July 12, @05:35PM

            by DeathMonkey (1380) on Tuesday July 12, @05:35PM (#1260213) Journal

            He got permabanned for crossing dangerous line that we are all basically in agreement is one step too far.

            Now he needs to pull up his hitches and take his punishment like a man.

      • (Score: 2) by Hyper on Wednesday July 13, @01:09PM (2 children)

        by Hyper (1525) on Wednesday July 13, @01:09PM (#1260488)

        aristarchus can come back anytime he/she/it/left/right/demon/hybrid-human-tree/whatever wants to. aristarchus can create a new account. aristarchus can post just like anyone else. Be civil, just like anyone else. Be treated fairly and equally, just like anyone else.

        Go for it aristarchus. Give it a try!

        • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday July 13, @03:10PM (1 child)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 13, @03:10PM (#1260512) Journal

          He has tried over 30 times to do as you suggest - he hasn't succeeded yet.

          See my https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=50331&commentsort=0&mode=threadtng&threshold=-1&page=1&cid=1260446#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 23, @02:04PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 23, @02:04PM (#1262483)

            It's groundhog day, right.

            There was a notice posted a couple of days ago to a game I play. They are taking steps to identify and ban alts, rule breakers, and basically do a userbase cleanup. The methods used are fairly strict and will no doubt work for a high percentage of players.

            Sadly it means other people are affected. I am waiting to be kicked as I will not 'verify' using the process they chose to use. One less place to spend time I guess. Sad, but what else can they do.

            Their argument is that it is taking too much of their time to police the users to weed out the problem players. This is no different to putting a captcha in for posting and then losing a percentage of users who just won't unblock Google. Fine for people who have and use Google services. No fine for those who don't. Happens. Price you pay. Sad, but look at where we are.

    • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:07PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @12:07PM (#1259083)

      So nice of janrinok to let all us ACs have a say, before he bans us to aristarchus hell. I get the idea he is personally bothered by the spammers, but more by the banned user who refuses to be banned. "Respect my Authoritae" But, on the internets, doesn't work out so well.

      Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, anonymous comment posting has temporarily been disabled. You can still login to post. However, if bad posting continues from your IP or Subnet that privilege could be revoked as well. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner or login and improve your posting. If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, please email admin@soylentnews.org with your MD5'd IPID and SubnetID, which are "0a36ae693a6728bbw23224a905d9bf31c" and "a1f8b4e8345d778901a2d3bf359a7e00".

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by janrinok on Saturday July 09, @12:11PM (4 children)

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09, @12:11PM (#1259086) Journal

        That is directly from the server, nothing to do with me. But I have explained all this before......

        • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:39AM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @06:39AM (#1259677)

          Everything to do with you, janrinok. The entire apparatus of SoylentNews that is aimed at suppressing dissenting voices has to do with you. You are the censor, janrinok, you are the executioner. We post or not, at your pleasure. Or, we just decide to leave. This seem to be the most popular option, of late.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Monday July 11, @07:10AM

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11, @07:10AM (#1259688) Journal

            It appears popular because you keep restating it repeatedly.

            You do realise that you have effectively signed this comment here: https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=50331&page=1&cid=1259672#commentwrap [soylentnews.org], and then tried to deny it here: https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=50331&page=1&cid=1259673#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]

            I mentioned correlation of AC comments yesterday.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @12:11AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @12:11AM (#1260339)

            Can I suggest walking a mile in janrinok's shoes? Do the job for a while yourself. Learn what it is like. It's not easy. janrinok does this for free. No one is paying janrinok to do this. You see the 'power' janrinok has, the influence, the control, but do you see the effort? the cost? the time? No one pays SN admins to do this.

            • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @07:05AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @07:05AM (#1260418)

              Trump and Hitler worked for free. They could have had quiet lives without the effort! the cost! the time!

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @12:30PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @12:30PM (#1259743)

      Having more rules does suck, but what's the better alternative?

      I think we are coming upon the same issue that any *community* comes across -- it's nice to have all the freedoms except all the freedumbs. Literally, the government exists mostly because there are people that either would take advantage of the freedoms or cause problems for others. Literally, free market can only exist when you have sufficient regulations mandating it. Otherwise, monopolies take over. Freedom of expression exists only because we (in most of the world) have laws prescribing what can and cannot be said. We have laws against hate speech, for example. The reason is to make sure assholes are kept under rocks. Heck, even in US there are laws limiting free speech - you can't start posting threats randomly and hide behind Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Speech was suppose to shield you from arrest for political speech, not to spew bullshit around.

      So yes, I'm not sure I will create an account here (well, actually I have one but haven't used it since almost the beginning) but I understand why we need impose some CIVILITY here. In the end, this probably helps the community to be a little less radical. And by that, I mean a little less off-topic shouting matches.

      +1

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @12:58PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11, @12:58PM (#1259751)

        How does it come to be that the ones buying all the guns are the ones wanting to stop people doing all the things?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12, @03:24AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12, @03:24AM (#1260022)

        " We have laws against hate speech, for example. The reason is to make sure assholes are kept under rocks. Heck, even in US there are laws limiting free speech - you can't start posting threats randomly and hide behind Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Speech was suppose to shield you from arrest for political speech, not to spew bullshit around."

        Umm, no. The reason for laws against hate speech is to appear to make social atonement for slavery, oppression of women, lgbtq, organized racism. Freedom of Speech was ALSO about the freedom to spew bullshit around (at least within the bounds of property owned by people who consent to allowing that on their property).

        Actually neither you nor I can state a single reason for laws against hate speech or any other laws. There are pretty much always multiple reasons, and politics, both the respectable and unrespectable aspects of it, is pretty much always one of them.

        The key here is that bit about who owns the property the speech is being spoken on.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12, @06:46AM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12, @06:46AM (#1260064)

      Alternatives:

        - only require logged in accounts for certain IP ranges, with a decay factor

        - only require logged in accounts for certain classes of user agents, with a decay factor

        - shadow ban them, and have a crappy AI reply to them, so that they have an insane conversation away from the adults

        - decouple IRC from the website, so that the instantaneous hate on IRC doesn't boil over to griefing on the website

        - track down the griefers, and have a kind but firm discussion in real life or via phone - not to threaten, but to make them realise that this isn't some abstract thing, but actually involves many real people. Even better, get hold of their mom. For gratuitous doxxing attempts, getting hold of their employer might even be better...

      Anonymous participation on the intenet is vital - without it we are just degrees away from everybody having to register to be online to say something. After all, requiring a valid email address just punts the problem onto the mail provider, and as those get fewer the griefers can focus on them too.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @12:59AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @12:59AM (#1260346)

        Captcha.

        I really really hate them. It can help with bot spamming. Perhaps logged in users won't see a captcha unless the system detects they are on an offending spamming subnet?

        Here is a good read on the topic: https://ardvaark.net/kitten-captcha-needs-to-be-mashed-with-flickr/ [ardvaark.net]

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Hyper on Wednesday July 13, @12:02PM (2 children)

          by Hyper (1525) on Wednesday July 13, @12:02PM (#1260462)

          top.gg has now changed to use cats and types of rooms as images on their captcha. Which of these is a bedroom? Previously it was boats, cars, trains and trucks. Far better than the really awful google captcha.

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by kazzie on Thursday July 14, @09:57AM (1 child)

            by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Thursday July 14, @09:57AM (#1260761)

            Just so long as they don't ask people to identify a particular variety of cat (or dog) in captchas: I'd be exiled to Robotopia if that happened.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14, @01:06PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14, @01:06PM (#1260792)

              that could be a bit harsh but then.. can you or can you not spot a bulldog in the pack?

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by dalek on Saturday July 09, @10:21AM (34 children)

    by dalek (15489) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09, @10:21AM (#1259055) Journal

    I saw this story listed in the queue yesterday and had no plans to participate until my thoughts were solicited. There are far better minds than mine, people here with more wisdom than I, who have probably weighed these matters much more thoughtfully.

    I can tolerate AC shitposting, provided it's not automated or done in large volumes, to allow people to say things anonymously that really need to be anonymous. CmdrTaco saw value in this when he created AC posting. Journalists use anonymous sources. I see value in AC posting, despite the trolling. Even trolls have contributed value. A lot of the unique culture that developed over on Slashdot (e.g., IN SOVIET RUSSIA, hot grits, cows, app appers, all your ___ belong to us, etc...) were started and repeated by trolls. I don't want to get rid of trolls, though I could do without low quality repetitive nonsense that lacks creativity or original thought.

    The spamming has to stop, though. Two individuals with vendettas have decided to place their selfish grudges ahead of the community, willing to tear down this site to satisfy their desires. Even better lameness filters will still be very brittle and easily defeated. I mod down the spam as I am able, but the volume has been so great that I've often had no mod points left to mod up good comments. There difference between a comment at +2 and +5 probably has virtually zero effect on the comment's visibility. But when I mod a comment up, I can provide positive feedback that a post is of good quality, hopefully encouraging the person to post more good comments. Responding to the spam interferes with that.

    There are also some lines that shouldn't be crossed. Comments that contain specific violent threats regardless of whether they're credible or not (example 1 [soylentnews.org] and example 2 [soylentnews.org]) and doxxing have zero place here. I would support deletion of such comments or removal of the offending text, probably with a page where the staff indicates the incidents of where they've had to employ these measures. Alternatively, if accounts are required, I'd support that such things would result in an automatic ban. I think the transparency and having clear standards that aren't ambiguous (e.g., doxxing, unambiguous violent threats, massive spam floods, DMCA requests, and other court orders) would avoid a slippery slope. I don't want this to be subjective and open to interpretation, nor would I even want someone like Slashdot's famous "IF I EVER MEET YOU, I WILL KICK YOUR ASS" troll to be banned.

    I don't like requiring logins to post AC, but if it's necessary, then it's necessary. I don't know where the line should be drawn on this matter.

    One other component of this is how to restore the community. Go back a couple of years and you'll find many usernames active who rarely post now, if at all. There are fewer staff now, too. Aside from the most egregious spam, the biggest challenge might be increasing participation. I agree the signal-to-noise ratio needs to be addressed, but outside of the most repetitive noise, I wonder how to increase the signal. Although I let myself get pulled into political discussions too frequently, I'm really here for the tech and science discussion. How do we get more people participating in these areas? How do we get more content about this and less about politics and toxic spam? In some respects, I think that's a more pressing issue here. If I had the answer or even a useful suggestion, I'd post it.

    If you've made it this far, thanks for reading. I'll read replies, but I've said my piece. Like I said, there are far wiser people here than I. I'll get more from listening than from posting.

    --
    EXTERMINATE
    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @10:25AM (10 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @10:25AM (#1259058)

      Dalek, more and more, I think that APK nailed you. You are an academic? In what field? Seriously.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Saturday July 09, @10:43AM (9 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09, @10:43AM (#1259062) Journal
        How did you know that Dalek was an academic? He didn't say it here nor was it mentioned in the links he provided.

        Because where you learned that is probably how you'd find out what field he was an academic in.

        He gets a great deal of respect from me because he tries to make serious arguments without appealing to that argument from authority fallacy.
        • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @11:21AM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @11:21AM (#1259068)

          Khallow, you are so much of an idiot. Did you knot sea dalekl's journal on the Student Loan thing? I, for one, had issues with his take, but he did admint to being faculty. What are you, khallow, not faculty, but ultility? Or just facilitiy? I think you are scum, who barely made it past secondary education. Prove me wrong.

          • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @01:08PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, @01:08PM (#1259103)

            Khallow, you are so much of an idiot. Did you knot sea dalekl's journal on the Student Loan thing? I, for one, had issues with his take, but he did admint to being faculty. What are you, khallow, not faculty, but ultility? Or just facilitiy? I think you are scum, who barely made it past secondary education. Prove me wrong.

            And exactly what do you expect to achieve with an ad hominem attack here?

            I take it you check all commenters' journals and possibly their previous comments to ensure you know what you are talking about before replying to a comment? If not, then your comment is rather hypocritical as well as distasteful.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @07:53PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, @07:53PM (#1259561)

              That's not an ad hominem, that's just insulting the other poster. Not that the difference is that important.

              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday July 13, @06:02AM

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 13, @06:02AM (#1260401) Journal
                You are attacking the person and not the argument. See wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:

                Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @01:03AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, @01:03AM (#1260348)

            Did you knot sea

            Why do you talk like this in this forum?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14, @12:36AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14, @12:36AM (#1260670)

              Place is crawling with knot seas. And khallow really is an idiot, he's not just pretending.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Saturday July 09, @11:44AM (2 children)

          by Opportunist (5545) on Saturday July 09, @11:44AM (#1259075)

          You forgot to ask a very important question: Who gives a fuck about whether he is an academic or not?

          Quite frankly, I don't get ad hominems. Call me whatever you want, but when you're done, I hope you have something to say about my argument because if you don't, I can't really take you serious. And if I don't take you serious, I don't give a fuck about your opinion about me.

          • (Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Saturday July 09, @09:57PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09, @09:57PM (#1259288) Journal

            You forgot to ask a very important question: Who gives a fuck about whether he is an academic or not?

            I made the generous assumption that the AC I was replying to cared and went from there.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by SunTzuWarmaster on Friday July 15, @01:54PM

            by SunTzuWarmaster (3971) on Friday July 15, @01:54PM (#1261067)

            This might be an unusual take - but I don't think so. I'm an academic in multiple distinct fields and have been wrong on subjects both in and outside of my fields. I have also held opinions in the majority and minority and been able to defend the opinions. Being an academic has very little to do with any individual posting on a topic - be it opinion or fact, within an area of expertise or without.

            [Perhaps an minority opinion] I like 4chan - where arguments must stand on their merits.

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