I am resigning with immediate effect from SoylentNews. I no longer have the trust of all of the community and my position is untenable.
I wish the site and the community all the very best for the future. I have enjoyed being a part of the last 11 years and I will be leaving behind many friends.
Some might say "Break out the flags and let the party commence!"
Jan
Addendum
I have been asked by the Chairman of the Board to publicise an email that I sent to him in response to him asking me what way my departure will affect the site's operation in the immediate future.
[OregonJohn]
Of course. I will remain contactable on this email in the future.
There will only be one active editor (hubie [...]) for much of the time. This is only manageable for a matter of days. There are several editors who still contribute from time to time and they may be able to assist depending on the level of their other commitments.
I have switched off the sock puppet detection and management software, which was being run locally on my own server. Previously, this was a task that was manually done by an administrator, but means that sock puppets cannot be easily detected until they abuse the site. This is, of course, too late.
I have switched off the Spam detection and management software. That is partially the cause of the loss of confidence in me which now exists in some of our community, so it is perhaps less important. It was being run locally on my own server.
Somebody will have to answer the emails addressed to 'admin@soylentnews.org', and action them if necessary.
I regret having to resign, but when valuable community members are leaving the site and I am the reason for them leaving then it is better that I go now and give the community time to stabilise. I got it wrong and I should pay the price.
[Edited after initial Release: 02-05-2025 08:47--JR]
A Response
First I have got to say that I am both surprised and grateful for the many comments to my announcement. Thank you for each and every one of them.
I have read them all and i have taken note of the advice offered. It was all good advice, always well intentioned, but in some cases you are only aware of some of the circumstances behind my actions. I have considered everything you have said and I have made some personal decisions for the future.
For some time now I have been having medical problems. Currently they are being managed by medication but one of the side effects is that I am suffering from extreme fatigue and disrupted sleep patterns. (The regular home visits by pretty nurses are a bonus, but I digress...). Although the doctors are optimistic that they can bring the problem under control with medication alone, there is still a chance of surgery being necessary - probably not life threatening but certainly potentially life changing if it has to be employed. For the moment I am unable to commit to the level of support that I have been giving to the site over the last few years and the doctors would like to resolve the issues in the coming months. I too want it to be resolved. The problems related to the loss of trust of a small portion of our community just forced my hand and I decided to do what the doctors have been asking me to do for many months. They, at least, will be happy that I have decided to follow their advice for a change.
I have spent the weekend considering the advice that you have given me and I cannot fault any of it. But for the moment my move back to the community is essential. I am not leaving the site, but I am unable to say when or how I will be able to contribute, and remaining in this uncertain situation would be unfair on the other members of staff and the community too. If I had not resigned then most people would have thought that things were carrying on as usual but that will not be the case. Hubie, as the main editor, would have a unmanageable workload and would have to be active on the site almost every day. That is unfair, unreasonable and, frankly, I think it is unacceptable. We desperately need a couple of volunteers to help out as editors. There are around 250+ active community members and if just 2 of them can step forward then they would only have to edit on average 1 or 2 stories a day. Personally, I prefer to edit at least a full day's worth (5 stories) and then Hubie or perhaps another editor can cover the next day. Weekends we often preload most stories so that we too can enjoy the weekend. That way spreads the workload and gives me time to do other things, both on the site and of it. I have offered to train anyone who wishes to give the job a try and, if everything works out for me, then I should be able to rejoin the staff and pick up where I am leaving off.
Being an editor does NOT mean that you have any of the other tasks that I have been doing. They are completely unrelated to the editing role. Despite some ACs' claims to the contrary there is no requirement for Administrators to be Editors or vice versa.
As for the site management, the site survived much longer without firm direction and leadership in the past and it can do so again. But there are other competent staff who can pick up the essential tasks, and leave the less important ones until we have a full complement of staff again. What is important is that the site remains active. Some were discussing rewriting the software - Why? The site works and doesn't need much at the moment. There is the odd hiccup but kolie is able to restart the system without so far losing any data. Others have mentioned looking for an alternative site - Why? The community here is doing what the community should and there is no need to look elsewhere, is there?
I really want there to be a site for me to return to once my problems are sorted out. All that I ask you to do is keep making submissions, giving insightful, witty and knowledgeable comments, and pushing out journals. This is exactly what you have been doing throughout the disruption of the last few years. I would appreciate that remaining the case for the future too.
I will not disappear (or at least I am not planning to...) and if I feel that I can do something then I will do it. What I do not want for the moment is the responsibility of having to be available all the time and a long list of outstanding jobs that never seems to get any shorter.
Seriously guys, I have been stunned by your response and you need to know that I appreciate it. It was a great morale boost and it came at just the right time.
We have tried to design a site which does not rely on a single person. The board do a brilliant job (often unseen and unrecognised) and they are 100% doing it for the community. My (hopefully temporary) departure should not be allowed to have any significant effect on the site.
[Edited after initial release: 2025-05-04 16:00--JR]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Mainframe Bloke on Friday May 02, @05:53AM (26 children)
Admittedly, I know little about the details, but I'm sad to hear this given all the effort you've put in.
All the best in your future endeavours.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday May 02, @06:06AM (25 children)
When valued community members leave citing me as the reason it is time for me to step aside.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by mhajicek on Friday May 02, @06:39AM (1 child)
You have my trust and appreciation. Don't let it affect you too much if someone got their undies in a bunch.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Friday May 02, @09:02PM
Agreed completely.
Impeach Donald Palpatine and his sidekick Elon Vader
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @06:51AM (16 children)
Again, [Citations needed], please.
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @07:53AM (15 children)
Roughly, after some discussions on IRC, looks like the straw that broke the camel's back (and janrinok soul) stem from:
- this one [soylentnews.org] - (personally, I find this [soylentnews.org] repugnant) and
- this [soylentnews.org]
coming after a long and draining effort in making the S/N work.
It's not that janrinok is after our gratitude, it's about no longer trusting his ability to find solutions.
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Interesting) by day of the dalek on Friday May 02, @08:52AM (1 child)
One of the reasons I posted my own journal was the comments in this one [soylentnews.org].
Trolls will be trolls, and there's no point in raging at them. But we had a solution that, while incomplete, was effective at hiding the worst comments and preventing massive threads with replies to trolls.
I turned on receiving notifications whenever someone commented in my journals, so I saw the subjects and sometimes the text of comments that were later flagged. From what I could tell, the comments being flagged were deserving of it. I had no problem with the soft deletion/flagging of comments, and I appreciated that it prevented some of the really big off-topic threads. I understand that admins have to enforce the rules everywhere on the site, and I was happy that the admins enforced them in my journal. I strongly disagree with the attitude expressed in that journal that admins should stay the hell out of users' journals. It appeared to me that this might have been a factor in comments not being flagged during the past few weeks.
I have no problem with users saying they agree or disagree with policies and actions. Users should be able to suggest alternatives and request policy changes. I've done plenty of that, so I'd be an absolute hypocrite to say that users shouldn't question or disagree with staff. But telling staff to stay the hell out of journals is going way too far. I was really taken aback by that, and that it appeared to result in a policy change about flagging comments. I don't know exactly what led to janrinok's decision, but I took exception to the journal I linked to. Seeing one of my own journals get trashed after that really frustrated me.
The community can suggest policy changes or question actions, but I don't think the community gets to tell admins to stay the hell out. I don't know if that was a factor in JR's decision, but I know it really irked me.
SUCK IT TREBEK [youtube.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by zocalo on Friday May 02, @10:51AM
I know the Slash code is not great, but maybe the admins could try giving users some more options over moderation & the level of admin involvement in their journals? That'd need to be within limits to prevent posting of content that might lead to more serious (e.g. legal) issues, but if someone is happy with flamefests in their journal, then I think that's their call and it's up to those potentially reading the journal how they handle that, or whether to just move on to something else. Admins are users too, of course, so there would probably also need to be some community rules around what they can/can't do depending on which "hat" they are wearing.
If it's made clear up front what the moderation settings are on a given user's journal (or even on each journal post if they can be set on a per-case basis) so a reader can make an informed decision to participate in the discussion or not, then so much the better.
As for site admins (when they have that hat on) not being allowed access to journals *at all*, then I agree with the above post 100%. The admins are ultimately responsible for site contents not getting Soylent shutdown because some asshat posted something that lands the site in legal hot water, and that totally needs to include content in the journals.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Friday May 02, @11:13AM (5 children)
Seeing as you made a point of using my journals to point this up, I'll take a moment to disagree with you.
I never asked or suggested that janrinok step down, leave or not participate. Not once. Nor am I glad that he's leaving. In fact, *I* left instead.
Rather, I called him out for misusing his access to IP Hashes to "out" logged-in ACs, something no other editor/admin has ever done.
That was a *me* issue. I recognize that others have agendas and aren't interested in this site being a good place for discussion and argument, but I did question some of the heavy-handed techniques employed -- not because they negatively affected me (at least not until very recently), but because they contributed to the issues raised by dalek [soylentnews.org].
I can't (nor would I try) speak for anyone else, but as I mentioned [soylentnews.org], I never called for janrinok's resignation, despite his (at least as I perceived it) focus on de-anonymising my AC posts.
As such, instead of demanding his resignation (I think you should reconsider, jan -- but you've never listened to my advice before, so why start now, eh?) and reveling in his discomfort, I'm just sad for the community.
He says:
And I ask: Who, *specifically*, as a member of the community, no longer trusts janrinok to act as an editor? Certainly not me.
For my part, I wish he was less obsessed with his "white whale," as that contributed greatly to the spamminess of journals and the necessity for banning not-logged-in AC posts on the front page. And I wish he'd taken his role as editor to be separate from his role as user -- as that can be (should he choose to make it so) a toxic combination.
I will say that if my criticisms influenced janrinok's decision to resign, then he took the wrong message -- at least from me -- which was (in comments and in IRC) that his heavy-handedness and especially his insistence on feeding the trolls was causing more problems than it solved.
But (at least AFAICT) rather than taking that message as a cue to do a little self-examination, it was instead interpreted as an attack on him and the quality of his execution of the editor's role -- hence his repeated threats (now followed through) to resign. And more's the pity.
janrinok: I urge you to both reconsider your decision and to reflect on the feedback you've received from me and others.
That is all.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @11:56AM (3 children)
Just to be clear
It was a fact that surfaced in my discussion with janrinok.
My only mistake is that I didn't ask janrinok permission to make the fact public - it's not my first mistake of the same type and I survived. Thick skin, eh?
Neither I said/suggested that you did ask janrinok to resign.
However, the reason janrinok chose to leave is not that you asked (or didn't ask) him to leave, it was because you left and janrinok felt he failed - see his "when valuable community members are leaving the site and I am the reason for them leaving".
I reckon he had/has his convictions - which he, as any others here, have the freedom to have and act accordingly - eg trying to reason with "white whales" (in an attempt to correct them or just from a feeling of guilt for shooting them down). Honorable for him to see and admit the impact - even if I don't agree with him w/ the "remedy" he chose.
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Friday May 02, @12:27PM (2 children)
You linked to my journals, but as dalek pointed out, similar stuff had been going on in other journals as well. As such, you could have linked to a half a dozen others too.
IMO, He took the wrong message from both my criticism and my departure. In fact, I think his resignation is a poor decision on his part. But, at least as far as that decision is concerned, my opinion is irrelevant.
I'd note that he didn't make that decision until I chimed in (a couple days late even) on dalek's journal, even though I'd "departed" several weeks ago. Which makes me wonder why he waited so long to make that decision.
If it will make a difference and get him to change his mind, I have full confidence in him as an *editor*. I just wish he'd be more cognizant of how he uses the additional privileges he has when interacting as a user.
Absolutely. And I have no illusions that I have all the answers (hell, I don't even know most of the questions!) That said, "don't feed the trolls" isn't exactly a niche idea.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @12:53PM (1 child)
1. The fact is: janrinok suggested me to take a look at NotSanguine and DotDalek journals. I picked the last entries of the two, read through them (and nodded to myself)
2. just because your journal is not alone doesn't make it less of a cause contributing to janrinok's decision
I'm not engaging in blame games now. I just wanted to understand janrinok's choice, asked him, got the answers, then shared some here.
Are you sure he had nothing else better to do then to "wait"? Like, "wait for the proper conditions to deliver a lesson" or something?
I reckon he is/was aware of the risks of using those privileges and was his choice to do it for the sake of S/N.
And you know what? Would it have been a single A/C posting in the same time, maybe the imperfect workaround could have been continuing to work w/ low risks of false positives.
(note: I'm past the age when I was refusing imperfect solutions; or faulting others for not sticking to the principles. The world is just too complex to admit simple absolutes as correct solutions)
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Friday May 02, @01:25PM
I'm going to preface this by saying that yes, I was annoyed at jan, and yes I probably took too acerbic a tone. And I recognize that was not the best way to express that I had an issue with how he was using his privileges. And it was *my* reactions which were the primary factors in deciding to step away.
That said:
I'm not sure how outing me as an AC was "for the sake of S/N," especially since several other users assumed that I was *also* several other ACs making much nastier and less substantive comments. I did see your other comment [soylentnews.org], so I'd ask that you not take the previous sentence as an attack or rebuttal. Rather, it's a clarification of my thought process from a couple months ago.
I agree (and I'm old too!) That said, while "imperfect solutions" are generally all we have, that doesn't mean we shouldn't (at least try) to improve them.
I've said it several times in this posting and I'll say it again: If janrinok's resignation had much to do with my complaints and departure, then he took the wrong message from my words and actions. If that's the case, I'm sure those misconceptions are partly my fault.
Please reconsider your decision jan.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 4, Interesting) by VLM on Friday May 02, @11:59AM
(Score: 4, Interesting) by NotSanguine on Friday May 02, @11:48AM (6 children)
Did you mean this [soylentnews.org]?
I stand by what I wrote there. It's one thing to participate in a discussion, and another thing altogether to use privileges others don't have in "normal" user interactions. Even (or perhaps especially?) when those privileges are also used for legitimate purposes.
Whether you agree with me or not, that comment and the journal it was in (six or so weeks ago) was relevant when posted, IMNSHO. Sadly, the criticisms therein were taken as personal attacks rather than criticism of specific acts by someone in a position of power.
Criticism is just that -- calling folks out for harmful and/or poorly thought out actions. Especially if offered honestly and in good faith, as my comments were. It's not meant to be a call for the metaphorical guillotine or just sundry nastiness, which aren't generally offered in good faith.
If my criticism was the cause of janrinok's resignation, he sure waited a long time to do so and then took the completely wrong message from it. It's too bad he didn't just use that criticism to inform his actions.
And as I mentioned in another comment, perhaps janrinok will reconsider his unfortunate decision to resign (we can hope -- janrinok?) and allow the criticisms from me and others to inform his future actions, as they (at least mine certainly) were meant to do.
If not, we're all of us the poorer for it. And more's the pity.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @12:05PM (2 children)
Mate, did you just choose to escalate with a case of negative impact (posting as not-signed AC)? Instead of helping him lower the sock-pups/trolls noise on S/N? Just to demonstrate that you are right?
And you wonder why oh why janrinok wants to resign?
(my point: let him who is without sin cast the first stone)
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Friday May 02, @12:47PM (1 child)
Just? That post was from months ago. I'd point out while I posted as a non-logged in AC, I didn't obfuscate where I was posting from (with TOR or a VPN).
And that was to make the point that *he* could see that it was me even if non admins could not. Janrinok knew it was me posting even if you couldn't tell.
And that was my point.
Not to demonstrate anything other than to put a fine point on how inappropriate I thought it was for him to out ACs, whether logged in or not.
As I mentioned, it was criticism designed to get him to re-evaluate how he was (mis)using his privileges in a way that no other editor/admin had done previously.
You can assume I did that to "win," but you'd be wrong. That said, I understand why you might think that.
The criticism was valid and I don't back away from it. I just wish it had been taken as criticism rather than a personal attack. Given your reaction months later, perhaps I should have written a different comment. Sadly, that Second Law of Thermodynamics make such a thing impossible.
As for "escalating," I wasn't the one who misused their privileges. In fact, I (and every single other editor in in the history of this site) had *never* done so before.
Calling that out didn't harm any efforts by him or anyone else to "lower the sock-pups/trolls noise on S/N." Or are we going with "the ends justify the means" even though that particular application of the means didn't advance the ends to which you refer?
Please do clarify as I'd be quite interested in fleshing that out.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @12:56PM
Got it. My apologies for taking my assumption as reality.
(and I did it again in the reply to the other thread between us. Apologies for that one too).
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Insightful) by shrewdsheep on Friday May 02, @12:54PM (2 children)
If you do, you demonstrate exceptional narrow-mindedness and egoism. I did criticize martyb for the same thing years ago but more in a tongue-in-cheek way: be mindful of your powers. The points you should consider: first, this site needs a lot of shepherding to keep the signal-to-noise ratio bearable. We have to rely on volunteer community members doubling as admins. They do and have to participate in the discussion. I do not know the admin interface but I imagine there is a unified feed of comments together with all relevant information: user, hash, content. Admins might use this feed as their primary means to consume the content. Second, if you feel you have to win an argument here, you are in the wrong place. This place if full of obstinate and stubborn know-it-alls. Make your point if it hasn't been made and stop the discussion. Otherwise, do not complain about mistreatment, hurt feelings or bouts of depression. Finally, admin-users will not always agree with you. You know what you can expect in this case, i.e. they are human too and will not always be able to separate their roles (you cannot unsee a hash).
(Score: 5, Funny) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @01:11PM
Heh, I know some who are sure that they are not know-it-alls w/o stopping them from being obstinate and stubborn.
(c0lo ducks to avoid looking into a mirror)
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Friday May 02, @01:43PM
Your point is well taken, and you're correct. IP hashes and who moderated who and how are additional fields visible to those with editor/admin privileges.
I was unaware that others had done so previously, although IME it's quite rare -- and thank goodness. If such behavior was normalized, this place would be much poorer for it. I'd say your anecdote validates the point of the comment to which you're (probably not incorrectly) taking me to task for because of its tone.
I probably (as I pointed out in another comment [soylentnews.org] here) should have been more measured in my response.
I'd say that while the level of negativity was a little high, there were other factors that informed (I don't want to get into details as some of them include private messages and emails) my tone and state of mind. And while it may seem unlikely, *I'm* just as human as you or janrinok.
Which doesn't mean I'm objecting to you taking me to task for my tone. Far from it. I take it as reasonable criticism (rather than a personal attack) that I can (hopefully) use to inform my future actions. Thank you.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 4, Insightful) by zocalo on Friday May 02, @06:54AM
Some people just don't get on. Professional people deal with it and at least continue to work together and eventually arrive at some kind of detente. Based on what I've seen of your dealings with personal attacks in discussions, I'd have pegged you firmly in the latter camp, and you've obviously made a huge contribution to keeping the site up and running as well. I have no idea who the second person in this might be, but they sound like someone I'd probably have read a lot of posts from, so hopefully you can both take some time out, come back, and just agree to disagree on occassion.
If not, please be assured that you and your comments will almost certainly be missed, and a huge thanks for all your efforts with the site over the years. The site and community will be much poorer without them.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by shrewdsheep on Friday May 02, @08:21AM
I'm also sorry seeing people leave. I do see you as someone guarding the working solutions. When others start whining without being able to offer better solutions, however, they have to leave.
I do not question your decision. I want to express my deep gratitude for your contributions and efforts. All based on idealistic principles. I am convinced that I speak for the vast majority of the community when I express my full trust in you.
Thank you.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday May 02, @02:04PM
I too am sorry to see you go, never had an issue with anything you said or did.
Since the sock puppet filter is gone, I welcome your not-so-alter ego to participate via Tor, anytime.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Username on Friday May 02, @04:44PM
It's on them, not on you. Just keep at it. If they want spam protection they can do it themselves. If they don't like how you fixed an issue, oh well. Again, they are free to volunteer their time and fix it.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 03, @08:52PM (1 child)
There are valued community members??
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday May 04, @04:47PM
Everyone who is not a big deuce or a Whhill Whheaton Dick.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Barenflimski on Friday May 02, @05:55AM (18 children)
I think you do a great job and appreciate everything you do.
Who you been talking to?
Come back man!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by chucky on Friday May 02, @06:09AM (16 children)
Also “I no longer have the trust of the community” depends on who you call community and as this is a shock to me, I don’t understand why should you have lost the trust.
What the heck is going on?
(Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Friday May 02, @06:52AM (5 children)
When one is in any position of authority it is essential to fairly represent all of those whom you serve - whether they are fans or foes. I can no longer do that for a part of our community.
When that starts adversely affecting others who have also served this site well over a long period, then it is time for one of them to move on. I have reluctantly made that choice.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 1) by pTamok on Friday May 02, @09:54AM (1 child)
I applaud the sentiment, but it is clear that there are a number of politicians in positions of authority who do not do that. It does not make not doing so acceptable, but it is common behaviour. Representing people you ideologically disagree with is particularly challenging. Treating people well, and in a civilised manner is particularly draining when there is no reciprocity.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday May 02, @02:14PM
If I had stayed then some people would have claimed that I had driven members away intentionally. That would not be true.
I did not blame any individual for my decision.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by quietus on Friday May 02, @10:57AM (1 child)
The essential characteristic of being in a position of authority is that you make decisions. The essential part of taking decisions is that, in doing so, you make some people unsatisfied to angry.
I haven't always liked your reactions to trolls, neither on irc or here: you take some of these characters too serious. However, I respect your leadership and accept the measures you implemented, even while I don't particularly like them.
I'd advise you take a break, but take that vacation as admin for this site. The site has taken enough hits in the past year: your leaving will have a cascading effect, and will not end well.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by hopdevil on Friday May 02, @06:51PM
janrinok's hard work has made this the success that it is.. and it is a huge success.
Every great project needs a hard-ass to keep it going, even if it isn't to everyone's liking. Ultimately, without such a leader, I am too concerned for the future.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Friday May 02, @03:34PM
It's been said "never say never". Take some time. Chill out for a few weeks.
I try to be easy going. And I believe I am fairly successful at that. However, in the neighborhood I'm in, I've fallen out with 2 neighbors, representing about 5% of the neighbors. It is they who broke the civility. These 2 are 2 of the 3 neighbors who put out Trump 2024 signs. Seems to be a strong correlation between supporting Trump in 2024 and being unforgiving, undiplomatic, bigoted, bullying, authoritarian jackasses who refuse to admit to any fault whatsoever. Say terrible things, then wont ever reflect, reconsider, back down, and apologize. Shouldn't say such things in the 1st place. But if said, fences can be mended with a sincere apology or two, though there's always the possibility that an apology will not be accepted. But they won't apologize. Too proud, I suppose. Evidently they believe that apologizing is weak. And of late it seems such people have been feeling more powerful and secure and strong, and have allowed themselves to show more ass, so to speak. In the US, the bigots have really come out of the woodwork.
The most extreme of these Trump loving neighbors is an old woman who has made enemies of most of the neighborhood. But she isn't seeing it because most neighbors are still polite to her. Too polite, I feel. Now, some people in their old age do what I've heard of as "fell off the wrong side of the horse", meaning, when they started going senile, they turned mean and angry. I do not think that's what's going on with her. I think she's always been mean. When I refused to maintain my yard to the very high standards she wanted, she threw a fit, called me an idiot, falsely accused me of being disrespectful to veterans, told me to move away, and said she was done with me. Totally uncalled for. Heck, maybe she forgot to accuse me of also lowering the value of her home. I don't tell people what to do with their yards. And now she refuses to speak to me, and pretends I don't exist when our paths cross. I am willing to forgive her, for the sake of civility, but she will not make that step. I am not fooled that my yard was her sole or even main reason. Her yard is not up to the standards she demanded of me. She's clearly a bigot. Racist. On his pickup truck, one of her sons sports a license plate with a Confederate flag. Not that I needed that to know what they are.
The other of the pair shows fascistic thinking. Alleges that something is more fragile than it actually is, and threatens harsh punishment to anyone who damages it. For instance, ordered everyone not to ever go the wrong way through the gates, because according to her that would confuse the gate sensors and electronics. Ridiculous. And she is big on surveillance. Says she considers it rude to let a pet dog pee in her yard, and has warned the whole neighborhood that she has cameras watching her yard and she will know who let their pet water her grass! No, we do not have an epidemic of too much peeing in one spot, thus killing the grass. I wonder, if a wild animal potties on her yard, does she complain that Mother Nature or God is being rude to her? She's also terribly, terribly afraid of the low class people living just outside the neighborhood. Has put up no less than 4 "No Trespassing" (We MEAN it!!!) signs on the fence next to her house.
And I wonder, does she spend 2 hours of her day, every day, reviewing surveillance footage? I confess I have little experience with surveillance. I should guess the cameras are equipped with motion sensors and only record when motion is sensed. Otherwise, how would a person get through all that footage in less than an inordinate amount of time? Even if you set the playback speed to something like 16x, and set up with multiple screens so you can simultaneously review, I dunno, 4 or more camera feeds, it will still take more than an hour to go through a day's worth. So I guess such surveillance systems have to use motion sensing.
Janinrok, you are far, far better than those Trump loving neighbors. That's a low bar, I know, so I will also say, you're a decent person. One of the things I fear about the US is that things have gotten so toxic, with rabid Trump supporters now routinely threatening death to any politician, even ones on their side, who dare breathe one word of dissent, that the best are all thinking of heading for the exits. Remember, in addition to wanting to murder senior and high profile Democrats such as Nancy Pelosi and AOC, they were willing to "hang Mike Pence", their own VP! Ever since 2016, I have been trying to figure ways to deal with this. I still don't think cutting and running is the best move, but I am considering it. If these far-right death cultist "end times are nigh" nut jobs gain the absolute power they crave, they might trigger a nuclear war. Nowhere in the world is safe from that. If that is the chief danger, then better not to run. Better to stay and do what I can to stop them.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by coolgopher on Friday May 02, @07:08AM (9 children)
☝️
If there's one person I trust around around these parts, it's Janrinok. I've been mightily impressed both with the levelheadedness, impartiality, and commitment to the site.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Undefined on Friday May 02, @01:52PM (5 children)
Agreed. Very sorry to see Janrinok go, if he carries through with this unfortunate decision.
I've read every post in the journals linked above, and it strikes me that, while he did allow himself to be baited here and there, we're all vulnerable to some degree when constantly attacked. Overall, he's been very even handed and relatively calm in the face of a continuous stream of outright abuse.
The only change I'd like to see is that logged-in users be given unlimited mod points (one per comment post), so that we, rather than overworked admins, can downmod posts out of view as required. And of course, upmod the good ones.
It would be unfortunate to lose AC posting, but even that would be preferable to me as compared to losing an active, responsible admin who clearly has the best interests of the site in mind, mistakes or no. We all make mistakes. Anyone who claims otherwise... is making a mistake.
(Score: 2) by liar on Friday May 02, @10:11PM (4 children)
"... And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know..." ?
Noli nothis permittere te terere.
(Score: 2) by Undefined on Saturday May 03, @12:13PM (3 children)
Rushing to conclusions, eh?
(Score: 2) by liar on Saturday May 03, @03:35PM (2 children)
Oh no! That was a response to "We all make mistakes. Anyone who claims otherwise... is making a mistake."
Noli nothis permittere te terere.
(Score: 2) by Undefined on Saturday May 03, @05:55PM (1 child)
I thought it was a quote from the band Rush. I was trying to pun. My error.🙈 It was Kansas. I'm old. All the music of my youth is beginning to blend together.
Apologies.
--
I use a dedicated preprocessor to elaborate abbreviations.
Hover your mouse over any abbreviation to see any you are unfamiliar with.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by liar on Saturday May 03, @08:13PM
No apology needed!
"...Masquerading as a man with a reason
My charade is the event of the season
And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know
On a stormy sea of moving emotion
Tossed about I'm like a ship on the ocean
I set a course for winds of fortune, but I hear the voices say..."
Noli nothis permittere te terere.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by corey on Friday May 02, @03:18PM
Me three.
I barely have time to read journals nor participate in IRC, let alone post stories. More of a lurker and occasional commenter. And usually on my phone so my text input usually contains spell correcting mistakes or bad grammar. But I read and love SN every day.
Janrinoks comments are always enjoyable to read as they are usually considered and give a European view on things. Thanks janrinok for everything you have done and contributed thus far, and hope to see you around more in the future, at least as a commenter/user.
I just spent 20 min reading through the links above by c0lo suggesting janrinok’s reasons, as it was all news to me. I hope he reconsiders but I think maybe separate being an editor/admin from being a user. Seems that would solve the issues others have raised. But I have only a superficial understanding of what’s going on or went on.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Tork on Friday May 02, @03:52PM
I came by to say this, only with more words and less clarity. :D I'll add that as a member his contributions to the site have been pleasant. My only real criticism is I think he engaged the trolls a little too often, but that's just me having a different style and not something I'd consider objectively-rooted advice. I used to be an admin for a vbulletin site, and I had to handle a bunch of the same stuff he does (i.e. persistent trolls who think they're lawyers), and I see qualities in him that are quite excellent in this regard with no significant drawbacks. I think he would have been an excellent member of our team way back when! If SN's staff had to shrink it'd be painful for me to vote for him to go.
Admittedly I don't know what caused this but I hate to see jan resign as an admin and if he can't be talked out of it I at least hope he sticks around as a contributing member.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 5, Insightful) by anubi on Saturday May 03, @03:32AM
"If there's one person I trust around around these parts, it's Janrinok. "
My sentiments exactly. I am in gratitude for all the work Jan has done for us all, and to disrespect anyone of this level of contribution to this site only demonstrates how unappreciative some of us can be.
This kind of politics is exactly how one Karen in a neighborhood can destroy the place by setting off all sorts of distrust, neighbor against neighbor, with the placing of a few anonymous phone calls to city functionaries - like code enforcement or police over trivial issues, then we end up with the good long term neighbors leaving, investors snap up their house, then rent to people who don't give a damn.
I, too, thank Jan for all that effort to keep this place going, wish the best, express sorrow over the decision to leave, and my frustration over my inability to do anything about it.
It is so much easier to destroy than to build. This is the same kind of thing that destroyed a company I used to work for. It all boiled down to people who had no respect for what others sacrificed to construct the place.
And Jan sacrificed a lot for us.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @06:48AM
[Citations needed]
No kidding, I'm dead serious.
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Interesting) by day of the dalek on Friday May 02, @06:37AM (6 children)
I believe that comments in my recent journal had a factor in this.
I have a problem with discussions repeatedly being trashed with long flamewars. Many of my own journals have been filled with toxic comments, and it gets really old. But this is NOT a janrinok problem. It's a much larger problem, where the desire to win an argument and declare victory over someone else gets prioritized above civility and intelligent discussion. The result are massive threads that disrupt discussion and fill journals and stories with toxicity. Many have been a part of that, myself included, and to the detriment of this site. If you only read the front page of the site or the occasional story in the past year or two, you might not see the toxicity. But it's not hard to find.
I understand janrinok's sentiment all too well, and some people have made it clear that they want him to leave. I am not one of these people. I've had many discussions with janrinok on this site and by email, and I genuinely believe that he is a good person. I've vehemently disagreed with him on many issues, but he's also shown me great kindness at many times. I appreciate all that he's done.
In many respects, I feel like being an admin for this site and community is a Kobayashi Maru [wikipedia.org] test. No matter what decision you make, someone's going to get angry, and you're going to get dumped on by someone in this community. Disagree as you wish with policy, but dumping on people isn't helpful, and the site is not better for this outcome. Policy can and should be debated. Nobody is perfect, and it's reasonable to disagree with actions. But the nearly constant personal attacks that some people here face have gone much too far.
If you don't believe me, look at the completely unnecessary toxicity of the comments in my recent journals or the current poll. There is no excuse for that toxicity, and many in the community have enabled it. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. There's a difference between constructive disagreement like saying something doesn't work and suggesting alternatives, and just dumping on people because you don't like what they've done.
To whomever takes over as an admin, I encourage you to recognize that you're not going to please everyone, and just do your best. Some people will disagree over policy, but they mean well and want the site to be better. They'll tell you when they disagree, but they'll also call it like they see it and say when you get things right. You're not going to be perfect, but just try to get things right a lot more often than you get them wrong, and don't hesitate to admit your mistakes. Some people will not miss an opportunity to dump on you, but you shouldn't worry too much about them. Just do your best, listen to those who are honest with you about what you've done right and what can be better, and try to learn from the past. It's not a thankless job, but the people who appreciate you won't be as loud as the trolls. I wish you well, and I'll try to offer policy suggestions and help as I'm able to.
I've said my piece, and I'm not going to participate further for awhile. But I know many of the people who run this site have my email address and are welcome to reach out to me. I can't promise I'll be able to help, but I'll do so as I'm able.
JR, you have my email, and you're welcome to contact me at any time. We didn't always agree, and I disagreed with you vehemently at times. But you got things right far more often than you got them wrong, and I appreciated your work here and our conversations. Be well, friend.
SUCK IT TREBEK [youtube.com]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @06:46AM (5 children)
Have you tried posting in your journal with comments only from auth users? If so, did it make a difference? If you haven't, can you give it a try?
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Ingar on Friday May 02, @08:17AM
WarGames: the only winning move is not to play.
I am sad to see you leave. Unfortunately, ignoring the users actually is an important part of being an admin.
An admin's primary responsibility is towards the system and not towards the end users.
A common misconception.
Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by day of the dalek on Friday May 02, @09:30AM (3 children)
It does reduce the trolling, but it also seemed to reduce the volume of comments.
I can accept that there are trolls, and they're going to try to disrupt the site. It seemed like the staff had developed tools to mitigate the impact of the trolls, and things had improved. I had suggestions for improving the flagging of comments. It seemed like JR and kolie were receptive suggestions from several users, including myself. After a few iterations, the system seemed to work fairly well, even if it was incomplete.
I turned on notifications when comments were posted in my journal, so I saw some of the content before it was flagged. I thought the comments that got flagged in my journals were deserving of it. I had no problems with it. The staff had developed some tools to suggest comments that might warrant flagging. If anything, it seemed like the staff was conservative about it and missed a few comments that should be flagged. Again, it didn't seem like there was any abuse.
My journal blames the community for the situation. I wrote it that way because I felt some community members undercut efforts by the staff to mitigate the abuse. I also think many community members (myself included, especially in the past) need to stop replying to trolls.
I could limit comments to logged-in users only in future journals, though I don't like the idea of doing that. I tried that in the past, then went back to enabling all comments for more recent journals. It seemed like the trolling wasn't all that disruptive when comments were getting flagged. I have no problem with staff enforcing site rules in my journal (I appreciated it!), and I really didn't like the "stay the hell out of my journal" attitude that was directed toward the staff.
SUCK IT TREBEK [youtube.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @10:28AM (2 children)
Are you aware of the effort/risks of flagging? Not only in dev/test/maintain time, but also to operate the flagging functionality (especially when flagging is producing false-positives).
You know that the new man utopia [wikipedia.org] is just that, an utopia.
My PoV: you can blame the community for not fitting your expectations all you want, expecting it to change is... ummm... utopianly naive.
look mate, after my heart attack, I became acutely aware that I can more readily adjust my expectations (and so lower my wasted time and the amount of disappointment) than I can change the world. Life's short
Personal principles (or just preferences) vs cost of answering to them for the admins and/or community. May be a good point to ponder a bit on.
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2, Interesting) by day of the dalek on Friday May 02, @04:26PM (1 child)
I agree that life is too short to spend on things you're not enjoying. However, I don't think the solution always is to lower one's expectations.
If the quality of a pizzeria I visit declines, the solution isn't to accept poorer quality. I might have enjoyed that pizzeria, but there are many other pizzerias out there. I can even open another pizzeria. If I'm not satisfied with the quality at one pizzeria, I should find a different one to visit.
I don't frequently monitor the email address associated with this account. I chose it for added anonymity. However, multiple staff members know how to contact me at an email address I do regularly monitor, and they are capable of contacting me. If I am contacted at my usual (non-account) email, I'll reply as I'm able and discuss helping. As with many situations, the problem isn't the entire community, but that some of the loudest members are also the most toxic.
However, I agree with your assessment that life is too short. There are situations where finding an alternative isn't an answer. But there are many pizzerias. Why continue visiting one with declining quality when there are other alternatives? Or maybe I'd be better finding a place that servers Mexican food but has a great beer selection. I think you get the idea.
I'll reply if I'm contacted by the staff. Otherwise, be well, c0lo.
SUCK IT TREBEK [youtube.com]
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday May 02, @08:29PM
Lower? No. Adjusting closer to what's possible under circumstances? Advisable.
Compromises are necessary in social life, even more so in the special case of marriage. In some cases a divorce being way better than the compromises, of course this barrier is lower for the case of S/N community - can't fault any of the parts (so I won't).
All the best to you, DotDalek.
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday May 02, @08:04AM
Completely understand the decision. Thank you for all your efforts to hold back the flood. Best wishes for the future, hope you continue as a site member.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by turgid on Friday May 02, @08:38AM (1 child)
Thanks for all the effort you have put in. It takes a strong stomach and a thick skin apart from anything else. It's a shame you feel you have to stand down. Look after yourself.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday May 02, @11:57AM
> Look after yourself.
Echo that - happy and healthy. Everything else is second order.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by pTamok on Friday May 02, @09:44AM (3 children)
...and from my experience of you, you are one of the best.
Other experiences might differ, of course, but my strong view is that SN is diminished by your departure.
Being a mod/admin is very draining, and I can well understand that you need to step back. I too am getting tired of 'unhelpful, non-community-oriented' behaviour in a volunteer organisation I give time to, so getting to the point of stepping down is something I fully sympathise with.
I hope you find whatever you turn your abilities to in the time now made available to you to be both worthwhile and restorative.
Vale! I in pace.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by quietus on Friday May 02, @11:06AM (1 child)
Many years ago, an older colleague gave me a bit of advice. Compliments and appreciation are really nice and all, he said, but best of all is that they are *free*. If what you do is really appreciated, it should be expressed in money.
It is time we'd pay -- and continue to pay -- people like janrinok, hubie, kolie and the rest of the administrators.
(Score: 1) by pTamok on Friday May 02, @06:57PM
This, I am happy to do, once the difficulty with Stripe is sorted out.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by pTamok on Friday May 02, @08:18PM
...Oh, and one other thing. I was hoping to be able to meet somewhere near to where you are and share some good food and good wine with you. That's looking less likely. You'll just have to eat and drink my share.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Gaaark on Friday May 02, @10:21AM
Yeah, i guess i've missed a lot along the way, but i always had trust in Jan...
WTF.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday May 02, @11:38AM (1 child)
Nobody wants to be the one to have to deal with the bad actors. You did for a long time. Thank you for trying.
Now one of two things happens:
1. One or more people step up to do what Jan did.
2. The trolls win, and Soylent becomes a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
Unfortunately, the pessimist in me thinks that #2 will be what ultimately happens, since now the trolls know how to get decent people to leave.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 4, Informative) by kolie on Monday May 05, @02:29AM
There are some ways I have up my sleave to make #2 less of a possibility with assisted tools to help a limited staff moderate more effectively.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by VLM on Friday May 02, @12:12PM (11 children)
Same type of drama happens in Ham Radio clubs on a fairly regular basis. Its actually a pretty good analogy, most folks just want to talk and hang out, some folks are/have to be in charge for various unavoidable (although sometimes avoidable) reasons, then this kind of stuff inevitably happens.
This is, unfortunately, relevant to the current discussion and brainstorming and blamestorming, because for decades the hams have never figured out a way to "fix" this. I guess the "fix" if there is one at all, has been circulating in new people so nobody runs out of patience before their assigned term ends. Or some variation on "just deal with it this is how it is"
I'm not saying "give up" but I am saying this kind of struggle is a wider ranging longer term hard to fix problem. Not a new invention of online web forums LOL.
Possibly, nobody wants to be editor because its a full time job, but ironically ten people all doing a tenth of the job of an editor might be more sustainable than making one guy do it full time. That "seems" to work in ham radio clubs, but I donno.
Another perspective I'd propose is if the moderation system doesn't work, maybe the problem isn't that we're not whipping the humans hard enough to work around it, the problem is we need to file and fix bugs so the humans don't have to do it. Whats the solution? Well, I donno, but telling the humans to work harder and put up with more, doesn't seem to be working, and we have this programmed system with source code available to fix, so ...
The only "large long term argument groups" that I'm aware of (mostly governmental) use something like Ruperts Rules of Order. And they get pretty unhappy too although they don't collapse (mostly). I'm not immediately aware of any long term political organization that's successfully used either anarchy (like the chans) or thumbs up/down.
Anyway, possibly this will provide some ideas or inspiration for research into how to fix this situation.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by pdfernhout on Friday May 02, @02:44PM (9 children)
https://web.archive.org/web/20050509012242/http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html [archive.org]
"Writing social software is hard. And, as I said, the act of writing social software is more like the work of an economist or a political scientist. And the act of hosting social software, the relationship of someone who hosts it is more like a relationship of landlords to tenants than owners to boxes in a warehouse. The people using your software, even if you own it and pay for it, have rights and will behave as if they have rights. And if you abrogate those rights, you'll hear about it very quickly."
Commented on here:
https://blog.codinghorror.com/a-group-is-its-own-worst-enemy/ [codinghorror.com]
"Dare Obasanjo recently wrote about the failure of Kuro5hin, which was originally designed to address perceived problems with the slashdot model: ... "Besides the malicious users one of the other interesting problems we had on K5 was that the number of people who actually did things like rate comments was very small relative to the number of users on the site. Anytime proposals came up for ways to fix these issues, there would often be someone who disregarded the idea by stating that we were “seeking a technical solution to a social problem.” This interaction between technology and social behavior was the first time I really thought about social software. ...""
=== Some ideas on all that by me and on hopefully improving SoylentNews
Dialogue Mapping is an idea that can help with facilitating productive discussions:
https://cognexus.org/id41.htm [cognexus.org]
"Dialogue Mapping™ is a radically inclusive facilitation process that creates a diagram or 'map' that captures and connects participants' comments as a meeting conversation unfolds. It is especially effective with highly complex or “Wicked” problems that are wrought with both social and technical complexity, as well as a sometimes maddening inability to move forward in a meaningful and cost effective way. Dialogue Mapping™ creates forward progress in situations that have been stuck; it clears the way for robust decisions that last. It is effective because it works with the non-linear way humans really think, communicate, and make decisions. ...
We're all familiar with the role of the facilitator. This is the role of the neutral person who plans and guides a group through a meeting, keeping the group on schedule and on topic, and addressing process issues like one person dominating the conversation or group members getting stuck in a debate. The facilitator uses learned skills and intuition to interact with the group in ways that effectively “facilitate” their accomplishment of their meeting objectives.
Dialogue mapping has the same intention as facilitation: to help the group members hold an effective conversation on a complex topic. By “effective” we mean a conversation that both accomplished the objectives and built higher levels of shared understanding, respect, alignment, and transparency. But dialogue mapping uses two tools that are relatively new to the conference room.
The first is to capture key elements of the conversation in a shared display. This could be whiteboards or flipcharts, but more often these days it's a computer projector. Shared display means that what is projected in the display is being crafted by the group actively. People's comments are somehow reflected in the display. We're not talking about PowerPoint here!! Sometimes referred to as interactive visual modeling, shared display requires that there be someone driving the computer who has the skills and intention of adding value to the group's interaction and creating group memory of the group's thinking and learning.
The second aspect of dialogue mapping that is new and different is the use of a simple conversational grammar called IBIS, Issue Based Information System. IBIS represents the moves in a conversation as Questions, Ideas (possible answers to the Question), and Arguments (pros and cons to the ideas). The power of IBIS is its emphasis on questions. In an IBIS diagram new questions arise to clarify assumptions, challenge arguments, shift the context, and explore the deeper implications of ideas. Dialogue mapping requires that the mapper be so fluent in IBIS that they can translate everyday meeting-speak (e.g. “Why are we talking about this?”, “That's not the issue!”, etc) on the fly into IBIS and write or type it into the shared display for the group to see and validate. The pinnacle of fluency in IBIS is being able hear the hidden questions behind participants' comments. ..."
Me talking on IBIS at a GNU Lightning Talk in 2021:
https://pdfernhout.net/media/libreplanet-2021-lightning-talk-on-dialogue-mapping-with-ibis-presented-by-paul-fernhout.webm [pdfernhout.net]
Compendium has been popular as a Java app in the past for Dialogue Mapping but is currently not maintained: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compendium_(software) [wikipedia.org]
"Compendium templates for critical thinking can be used to create argument maps using the argumentation schemes developed by argumentation theory scholars such as Douglas N. Walton, Chris Reed, and Fabrizio Macagno.[8] Argumentation schemes are pre-defined patterns of reasoning for analysing and constructing arguments; each scheme is accompanied by a list of critical questions that can be used to evaluate whether a particular argument is good or fallacious. By using these argumentation schemes, users of Compendium can examine claims in more detail to uncover their implicit logical substructure and improve the rigor and depth of discussions."
So, I can hope Dialogue Mapping with IBIS could help some with having good social software. But I still have not figured out exactly how it could work in the context of Soylent News -- besides maybe offering an IBIS map related to each discussion, but who makes it? Soylentils? AI? Both? Some clever non-AI algorithm based on post content with a little human tagging assistance? Maybe anyone posting a story has to commit to doing a Dialogue Map of it if the story is posted (or finding someone to make one)?
I also am a fan of the idea of a distributed system where people own their own repositories somehow but they somehow connect (like with WordPress backlinks). For example, a comment on a story (or a comment on someone else's comment) is essentially a post to your own block -- but it is viewable by some form of search and filtering when you look at the post for the original story. If you don't want to read stuff from someone (or maybe also from someone replying to someone), you do the equivalent of adding them to a personal "killfile" like in the old Usenet days. Not sure how to do moderation -- maybe just a form of comments? Probably need some kind of public key infrastructure there to sign stuff perhaps? And then some way that the end user can essentially enforce limiting mod moderation by others locally by what comments by whom there choose to accept and use for prioritizing what they read.
I'm a software developer -- and sort of semi-retired at the moment since being laid off about a year ago. It has taken about a year for me to get past some programmer burnout from the last eight-year stint I had at a SV-based biotech company, and now I am just getting back to doing some programming. I am working on related ideas under the Twirlip moniker ( http://twirlip.net/ [twirlip.net] ). I've been doing stuff with Triples (similar to RDF) since the early 1980s, so I am a bit stuck in that paradigm as essentially a form of adhoc multi-user object database (even though I know PostgreSQL in particular and also SQLite are great systems to work with and real workhorses within their constraints).
Every once in a while I think about what it would be like to take all the Soylent News content (or any other site, like the green site) and put the database into such a system as seed content (not that I have access or permissions to do that). I hesitate to volunteer to get involved with managing this site (including for all the political conflicts and related legal liability, even if I am trying to work around it a bit through creating better communication tools). I also don't want to maintain Perl code (given I have never programmed much in Perl) -- although I could port Perl stuff to JavaScript/TypeScript (which I know best right now, although I also have coded in other languages like Java and Python and more) perhaps if it was relevant to a new platform, though I suspect most of it isn't.
https://github.com/SoylentNews/slashcode [github.com]
In short, I value the community and content here more than the technology base. I think it would be a good think to help this community transition to a new technology platform that was a proof-of-concept for local social media (like, say, New_ Public is working towards: https://newpublic.org/local [newpublic.org] ). But that is fraught with risk of all sorts -- compared to building up a new system and new community, which has its own different risks.
That said, I know some (many?) people here are fans of a website that generates plain HTML without requiring JavaScript. The technology approaches I am pursuing are essentially simple servers with complex JavaScript-based front ends. So I know such an approach would meet a lot of vocal resistance here (and not unjustifiably). I don't know if it would be easy to make a server that still served up basic content along these lines as plain server-side generated HTML. I'm sure it might be possible, just more work.
I've thought of making a similar post years ago when SoylentNews was also in turmoil with governance -- although I was working full-time then. Also, since what I want to explore is essentially an experiment which might fail, I am also reluctant to commit to working with people on such tools other than on such an experimental basis (and being licensed as FOSS of course). Also, people who have posted in the past might object to having their content reused in this way (I don't know the legal status or moral status in that regard of SoylentNews posts going back a decade).
One way forward might be to have APIs for the SoylentNews database that could be used to drive a JavaScript frontend in parallel with the current site. But since the site has struggled technically as-is, add more functionality to the existing codebase might be a logistical and social challenge. And I might expect any effort in that direction I got involved with would rapidly see me sucked into maintaining the current technology infrastructure or wading into current content politics.
Wish I had something that was as drop-in superset for SoylentNews right now for the community to use (which supported Compendium-like features), but still nowhere near that, sigh.
Of course, there are lots of other options. Here are 266 Social Spaces and Products (in a spreadsheet) collected by New_ Public:
https://airtable.com/appgA6QrWMpXmDp9X/shr7JFPTJt1C9j0qA/tblwlRhU0Icd8p5iJ [airtable.com]
(Was sad to see SoylentNews not in that list as it should be.)
That spreadsheet is linked from New_ Public's research section:
https://newpublic.org/research [newpublic.org]
"Research and discovery are at the core of our project and mission. We’re spreading the word and building out a field of organizations, developers, and funders committed to healthy digital public spaces. Find reports, frameworks, and tools we’ve created with our partners, including the Civic Signals, our signature research into the qualities necessary for online spaces to thrive."
"Digital Spaces Directory: As the social media landscape changes and a new wave of digital spaces emerges, this Directory is meant to be a resource for our field — a jumping-off-point for further exploration and research for anyone who’s interested in studying, building, stewarding, or simply using digital social platforms. We hope this will inspire creative exploration, spark new collaborations, and highlight important progress."
"Civic Signals: We spent two years reviewing the literature and talked to over 100 experts from disciplines ranging from social psychology to urban planning about the qualities of flourishing public or semi-public spaces. We followed up again with an update during the height of the coronavirus pandemic in 2020."
Kialo is an example in that list that I have thought about some, as it is a but like Dialogue Mapping with IBIS (although it does not have all the other aspects I am interest in as a broader system):
https://www.kialo.com/about [kialo.com]
"Kialo is an easy to use, yet powerful tool to engage in thoughtful discussion, understand different points of view, and help with collaborative decision-making. With Kialo, you can take on issues big or small, build consensus on a topic, and explore every aspect of a discussion. Kialo allows you to be more thorough and thoughtful about the issues that matter most to you, and the world around you. Our Mission: Making the world more thoughtful."
There is probably no big reason, though, that most Soylentils should want to be guinea pigs for social software experimentation when whey have been enjoying what is already here and working generally well enough for current purposes (even if it has struggles now and then). So probably another reason why what I suggest above is a Bad Idea(TM). :-)
The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by quietus on Friday May 02, @03:41PM (3 children)
How fluent are you with nodejs? I've already gotten part of a soylentnews replacement working about 1.5-2 years ago, where you generate pure HTML+CSS on the server-side via express: no js frontend required and fast, clean, javascript free, pages on the client side.
That said, the more urgent thing now is not technical. What isn't mentioned yet in this discussion is that the vast majority of the subs is written by 2 people: janrinok and hubie. We need more, and regular, submission writers (and commentards).
(Score: 2) by pdfernhout on Friday May 02, @04:00PM (2 children)
Most of my web-related projects over the past decade have used Node.js in some way (NarraFirma, Twirlip7, Twirlip15, other stuff):
https://github.com/pdfernhout [github.com]
A simple example from 2014:
https://github.com/pdfernhout/TanksInYourBrowser [github.com]
"Multi-player tank toy using JavaScript in the browser and node.js with socket.io for the server"
That said, the emphasis of those projects has mainly been using Node.js to define simple APIs (including using Socket.io for near-real-time updates) for complex JavaScript clients (with clients mainly written in Mithril.js).
For another example, this project started about ten years ago runs as either Node.js or a WordPress/PHP plugin using common APIs:
https://narrafirma.com/ [narrafirma.com]
Congrats on your HTML-generating SoylentNews-replacement work. Out of curiosity, is there a public repo somewhere for it?
If I absolutely had to generate a lot of HTML on the server-side, I would find this tempting (to perhaps have common code to potentially render either server-side via Node.js for non-JavaScript users or client-side via the browser for a SPA via a REST API or socket.io/websockets for JavaScript users):
https://github.com/MithrilJS/mithril-node-render [github.com]
"Use mithril views to render server side"
Good point though on what a "News" community needs right now in terms of submissions. It's easy for techies to get lost in (reimplementing) the technology and miss the big picture of what a community truly needs right now.
The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
(Score: 2) by quietus on Saturday May 03, @06:06PM (1 child)
No, I made a conscious decision not to spend more time on it, after kolie showed that he was serious about the continuation of the site, and the handing over process. On the one hand, I was already time-pressed enough; on the other hand I couldn't predict what effect the announcement of an alternative forum would have on the community.
If you want to go that route though, I suggest we'd first gather at least 2 more (willing) nodejs developers with a decent knowledge of CSS/HTML, or else we'll end up in the same straits as the previous Perl crew.
I've skimmed through the links and code you provided -- interesting.
I do not believe in mithril-node-render though, for a number of reasons. Rendering HTML through javascript calls has been tried before, and, in my opinion, suffers from a fundamental flaw: mixing 2 concepts/technologies so tightly makes debugging harder. Better let people who are familiar with HTML and CSS markup create the page designs, in a separate process, as templates; and than use javascript to insert the database elements. Do not mix markup and javascript if you can avoid it, in my opinion.
That said, allow me to repeat: let us first get the submissions and comments rates up, before even thinking about the technology stack. A simple way to start there would be to write a submission, and perhaps even volunteer as editor.
Somebody has to be the first to step up -- and did I mention your links were interesting?
(Score: 2) by pdfernhout on Sunday May 04, @12:09AM
Thanks for looking at the server-side Mithril stuff. And for explaining the (reasonable) rationale on whether to make public your previous work.
On keeping CSS separate from HTML from code, one example commentary:
https://wempe.dev/blog/debunking-tailwind-counterarguments [wempe.dev]
"What benefits do you get by trying to completely separate the styling from the markup? From my perspective, it even is a strength of Tailwind to keep them together! Just imagine you (or somebody else) will remove the card in a few months or create different styling for it. Will you remember to also delete the CSS? Can you delete it?"
"Another benefit of not separating the styles from the markup: You don’t have to come up with names for things. You want to change the card to be displayed as something else? You will probably change the name… It may seem like a minor thing to you, but for me, it is actually one thing less to worry about."
Lots of similar discussion in lots of places about various approaches -- where many people (not all) feel that keeping everything together related to a component (e.g. displayed comment) is better than sprinkling it across multiple files where it can get out-of-sync. I picked Tailwind to find an example because it is popular and atomic/functional/utility-first CSS and I know this argument comes up there a lot. In short, advocates of the unified approach suggest that if you design your code around components, there is little value in separating styling from the component. If you do need to separate some styling stuff (like for themes), you can write functions which you call from your component generation code.
As an extreme example, documentation is arguably a "concern". What would you say if I took all the comments out of some project base and put it in a separate file (with references back to line numbers in the original file)? Would that make much sense? How likely is it that comment file would get updated reliably when code got deleted or added or moved around? The same happens with CSS separated from application code; it gets out of sync with the code as people don't always go and delete unused styles.
To support your point though, it is true that there are designers who mainly know how to work in CSS and HTML and coders who mainly work with JavaScript. So for any specific group of developers, separating CSS and HTML and code can make sense. Depends on the context.
Also, historically, CSS was designed to be often applied to be applied after-the-fact to arbitrary HTML someone else generated. Separation made sense in that context as it was the only possibility. But priorities can be different when one person or group controls both the HTML and the CSS.
Also, I mainly work on Single Page Applications with lots of JavaScript on the client-side and where I also do most of the styling (building typically on Tachyons for my own projects and in the past stuff like Bootstrap for work). I've never used Mithril server-side myself. So, perhaps arguably priorities are different when making just server-side stuff (at the very least, depending on the programmer and their background).
The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
(Score: 3, Informative) by AnonTechie on Friday May 02, @04:28PM (1 child)
According to Google AI,
https://www.zendesk.tw/service/help-center/best-forum-software/ [zendesk.tw]
Albert Einstein - "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
(Score: 4, Interesting) by pdfernhout on Friday May 02, @05:54PM
Indeed, there are many alternatives. Importing existing conversations into them might be challenging, but probably is possible to some degree. Not sure of the details of all of those as regards moderation and such. But in general, the more communities that use a platform, the more likely it will be well maintained and have documentation on installing and upgrading it. And the more likely it will have some measures available to deal with threats to the community (like DOS or massive trolling).
From my point of view, what you point out is another reason why I am looking at creating something very different. Just re-implementing another discussion platform when there are already many good free alternatives is just not that interesting or worthwhile.
So, I am more interested in implementing something that, say, that re-envisions personal and social media crossed with a social semantic desktop and email (even if such an ambitious effort would likely fail give the statistics of new software projects). Or, ideally, even better, I's like to help collaboratively define standard for such systems (with a baseline implementation). I talked about that idea in this 2020 GNU / LibrePlanet Lightning talk:
""Free/Libre Standards for Social Media and other Communications""
https://pdfernhout.net/media/libreplanet-2022-lightning-talk-on-free-libre-communication-standards-by-paul-fernhout.webm [pdfernhout.net]
Communities are self-selecting and self-perpetuating to some degree. Over a decade, Soylent News has shaped itself as a community. Some people come and leave because they don't like what they see, others stay because they do like what they see. That self-selecting process tends to amplify a certain (complex) set of overlapping characteristics among participants. The same is true for mailing lists (where I first realized this idea, and how hard it could be to change the direction of a long-existing group).
And what community, hanging out in, say, a the equivalent of a specific bar ("where everybody knows your name^H^H^H^Hhandle") really wants their space to be filled with a lot of construction dust for a while? Enough construction could greatly damage the community as people choose to be elsewhere for a time. Thus some hesitation on my part even mentioning this possibility. I guess it would not be fair to take advantage of the community as guinea pigs in a moment of its distress.
Fundamentally, I would like to address the issue of the need for moderation given legal issues -- trying to work around that technically by somehow modularizing what people say to essentially their own blog (but interlinked with other's work). I am not sure if that really is feasible in practice though -- especially if you just have one webserver which is a de facto publisher or people's journals and comments versus many webservers each connected to a specific individual responsible for their posts.
That said, Soylent News and the green site and others have managed to survive legal issues despite the central webserver being in a sense publisher (using a disclaimer the posts are owners by the poster) -- but it seems that risk and related stress for key people making the whole system run may still contribute to burnout and/or conflict as with janrinok's resignation. So ultimately migrating to one of those other platforms you list which might be better supported might make sense (if a migration was required or made sense at all).
The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
(Score: 3, Informative) by pTamok on Friday May 02, @08:21PM
Kuro5hin was an interesting place.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Saturday May 03, @09:16AM (1 child)
> I also am a fan of the idea of a distributed system where people own their own repositories somehow but they somehow connect (like with WordPress backlinks).
I do wonder about this sometimes - seeing the downward destination of Reddit and the green site for example, having a system whereby the forum is distributed seems desirable. In my head there is the "SN" blob that owns links between comments and metadata (e.g. a hash of the comment, a time stamp, moderation) and then "User accounts" blob that own journal, comments (the actual text, plus some metadata). User blobs can be hosted on different servers. User blobs can be transferred between hosts.
> simple conversational grammar called IBIS, Issue Based Information System
I think you mean that rather than just having a KD tree of comments, you have some mesh of comments and users can flag comments to different "type" categories? i.e. the "Questions", "Ideas" and "Arguments". Potentially this is a moderated input as well?
> --AI-- Artificial Stupidity
FTFY
(Score: 2) by pdfernhout on Saturday May 03, @04:32PM
Thanks for your reply, including about interpretations of "AI". That's an important concern especially given both AI hallucinations and the way people can misuse tools or create oppressive systems with them (e.g. the AI-powered-robot-managed Terrafoam dystopia in Marshall Brain's Manna sci-fi story).
In essence, yes, on this part: "I think you mean that rather than just having a KD tree of comments, you have some mesh of comments and users can flag comments to different "type" categories? i.e. the "Questions", "Ideas" and "Arguments"."
Although I was also thinking maybe commentators could assign the category when they make their comment. But adding them after the fact makes sense too as people learn the system (or changing the category if it was miscategorized originally).
Good point on moderation of categorization (which I has not thought on specifically): "Potentially this is a moderated input as well?"
In general, while people have worked on tools for collaboratively producing IBIS-like diagrams, I don't know if anyone else has ever implemented collaboratively editing IBIS diagrams in a *moderated* setting. So, new ideas may need to be worked through, as well as for *distributed* collaborative editing (if it is done asynchronously across a network of hosts). And then there is also the question of how AI could help with any of that perhaps.
Some IBIS diagrams examples with abstract diagrams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issue-based_information_system [wikipedia.org]
And a funny example of Dialogue Mapping with the Compendium tool (although a half hour long):
"Dialogue Mapping The Lord Of The Rings with Paul Culmsee & Nick Martin":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-sv5I59Fxw [youtube.com]
The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by kolie on Monday May 05, @02:31AM
Im up to contributing code to a rewrite or a distributed soylent news experiment.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by hubie on Friday May 02, @12:52PM (2 children)
I'm sorry to see you resign for a variety of reasons. It, of course, has an obvious impact on me as you are the other 50% of the active editor team, but I'm not too concerned about that. I will do what I can and I am confident someone will step up, hopefully multiple someones, to join the editor team. I just hope that you are willing and able to onboard them in the thorough and professional manner you did for me.
I am more sorry because I feel you overestimate the magnitude of the loss in community support. Being involved in a volunteer organization is like being a sports referee, you do it for the love of doing it, and everyone has their opinion as to how you have to do your job. It is particularly easy to criticize and complain and even question one's integrity from the stands. Most sports are in dire need of people volunteering to be referees just as this site would love to have more people fill in necessary roles, but until they do, you do the best you can do and carry on. You've done a very thorough and admirable job explaining how things work behind the scenes and what the limitations are on the software we use, so in my opinion the onus is on the complainers to either step up and change things, live with the limitations, or move on. They should, of course, keep complaining about things that can be improved, but if things don't change on their desired timescales, I think they need to decide to either help fix things or move on because this site doesn't meet their requirements.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Friday May 02, @02:18PM
Yes, of course.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by crm114 on Friday May 02, @11:33PM
Jan,
For the first time in my life I used all my mod points, and will likely do so again tomorrow. You have done an enormous amount of work to keep this a friendly and interesting place.
I echo the words of others: You have my trust. I hope you can lurk for a bit, and then join back in the fray. You will be welcomed with open arms and warm hugs. The world has drastically changed in the last 100 days. It might change again in the next 100.
As Military slang puts it: "Janrinok: Stay Frosty." (to be alert and ready for action, without letting fear control one's emotions) You have not let fear control your emotions. But we still need you to be ready for action.
Peace.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by AnonTechie on Friday May 02, @03:27PM
Such a situation should not have arisen. We will miss your insightful comments, wry humour, your patience, and the hard work that you have put in for this community. Heartfelt thanks for all your efforts. Do take care of yourself, and all the very best for your future endeavours.
Albert Einstein - "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
(Score: 3, Insightful) by lonehighway on Friday May 02, @04:13PM
I want to thank janrinok for all of your hard work to keep SN operating through all of the difficulties. I don’t follow all the drama so was blissfully unaware, but I will miss you and I wish you the best. I’m sorry it’s gotten to this point. I don’t know what else to say. It’s a sad day.
(Score: 3, Informative) by mcgrew on Friday May 02, @08:47PM
Well, you have my trust. I hate to see you go, I hope you don't stop reading, submitting stories, and commenting.
I do understand that old men like us don't like unnecessary bullshit. Good luck and good health.
Impeach Donald Palpatine and his sidekick Elon Vader
(Score: 5, Insightful) by sgleysti on Friday May 02, @10:12PM (2 children)
Please reconsider. Your work is essential to keeping this site running. Ignore the haters.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by sgleysti on Friday May 02, @10:30PM (1 child)
Also, the AC you've been contending with in various journals has both some kind of psychological problem and an enviable amount of free time. Responding to such a person isn't worth it...
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 03, @04:27AM
I'm certainly not the AC in question. Thank you for expressing what I've wanted to. Janrinok has such a strong giving dedicated spirit that he's always trying to reason with that AC.
My vote would be to delete the AC's comments- the ones that are obviously antagonistic and argumentative (and obnoxious and noxious and inane and trite and tedious and ...)
My hope is that board members and other top-level people here at SN come to his rescue, intervene, and remove the AC's posts before Jan ever sees them.
(Score: 2, Informative) by holeinone on Friday May 02, @10:15PM
I find myself lost for words.
Sorry to see you resign in this way Jan.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by mrpg on Friday May 02, @10:18PM
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Stay here, silence the trolls and ignore them.
Should we vote?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by dx3bydt3 on Saturday May 03, @12:18AM (1 child)
I appreciate the time and effort janrinok has put in to reviving and sustaining this site and community.
In my opinion his value is far greater than any who would leave based disputes with his administration that I've been aware of.
This is perhaps a more perilous time for the site than the transition of ownership of the site, he was there, keeping everything working for that transition.
I sincerely hope janrinok reconsiders, he has done this community a great service.
Regardless of his decisions, I wish to thank janrinok for all the time and effort he has put in to keeping our community going.
(Score: 5, Informative) by day of the dalek on Saturday May 03, @02:47AM
I get your sentiment for the sake of the site, but I disagree about something. I emailed janrinok last night and encouraged him to not return to the staff this time, and certainly not in his previous capacity.
I've personally interacted with janrinok more than anyone else on this site, and it's not close. He's been beyond generous to me, not to mention how generous he's been with his contributions to this site. The accusations made against him both by trolls and people who ought to know better aren't just wrong, they're offensive.
I recall janrinok talking either on IRC or in old comments about how doctors have urged him to rest more for his own health. I'm certain it takes a lot of time to be an admin and respond to comments and emails as he does. I've no doubt he's always had better things to do than keep trolls at bay. That's the biggest reason I hoped he'd stop replying to and arguing with people who just wanted to goad him for their enjoyment. I hope janrinok is around on the site in some capacity, but I hope he participates on his own terms and not those of trolls.
I've disagreed with janrinok at times, sometimes vehemently so, but he's also the kindest and most generous person I've dealt with on this site. When we disagreed, I knew he always did so in good faith and because he wanted what's best for the site. We didn't always agree on how to achieve that, but I know he always had the best of intentions. He deserves far, far better than what some people have said about him in the comments here and elsewhere.
If janrinok isn't returning as a staff member, that's not good for the site. But I hope it's better for him personally to step away, and that he has more time to look out for his own health and best interests. I'm certain he'd hope for the community to step up and make sure that the site he worked hard to build is able to continue and grow.
Regarding the community stepping up to fill janrinok's duties, I've already addressed my own status in other comments. It will take many people to take over the duties that janrinok performed with dedication, and I sincerely hope that happens.
As I said, janrinok is always welcome to contact me, and I hope he stays in touch. Like I said, he's shown me more kindness and generosity than anyone else on this site, and it's not even close. Live long and prosper.
Dalek out.
SUCK IT TREBEK [youtube.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by dw861 on Saturday May 03, @05:37PM
How very unfortunate. I would be most happy were you to reconsider.
What a great loss for this imperfect community.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Mykl on Sunday May 04, @10:19AM
Sorry to hear that you will be away (for a while at least) Janrinok.
Your dedication to dealing with (what I consider to be) SN's single largest issue has been admirable. My only critique would be feeding that troll with ongoing conversation and justification. I get that it's incredibly hard to let false accusations justly lie unanswered, and I don't pretend that I would've done a better job.
I hope to see you back sometime soon after a bit of space.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 04, @04:48PM (1 child)
How is this *Re*-bumped to the top of the news feed?
You know, when you're desperate for attention and demanding it of others, you might just get it -- and very possibly the attention that you receive won't be the good kind. Probably this has been a string all along, well before the attention of just this post.
I really don't know who Janirok is, I really don't read names on posts or comments (just the content), but I can see that this person is an attention whore. Got the wrong kind?
(Score: 4, Touché) by janrinok on Sunday May 04, @06:13PM
That's OK. I'm stepping down from my posts on the staff after 11 years which is why I am looking for replacements.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Gaaark on Sunday May 04, @04:58PM
Here's hoping your health improves for now and in the future.
I'd help, but it seems that work, my son (severely autistic) and my wife (leukemia) take up all my time (my son doesn't even let me get a proper sleep...I'll just get to sleep and he'll wake me up).
My health is good (currently a flu is running through the family, though) but I'm old and tired.
Hope surgery isn't in your future, but shit is as shit is. :|
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Deep Blue on Sunday May 04, @05:37PM (1 child)
Get well janrinok, taking care of yourself is obviously the priority. You'll come back, if you feel so.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by SpockLogic on Monday May 05, @12:07PM
You must take care of yourself.
You will be missed.
Thank you for all the hard work you have done.
Overreacting is one thing, sticking your head up your ass hoping the problem goes away is another - edIII
(Score: 4, Insightful) by pkrasimirov on Monday May 05, @09:51AM
Take care man! Health comes first of course, you don't need doctors to tell you to know that. I personally wish you the best possible outcome from your current situation, whatever it is, and to feel calm, happy and appreciated (which you are)! Thank you again for all and every thing you did here. If you ever have doubts again, pm me, I will remind you. Take care and if you need something I believe you could also write here, plenty of people in your fan base will be willing to help. Seriously, you did great. Take it from here in your own pace, we will be alright, and if not, it would be our own fault.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by ElizabethGreene on Tuesday May 06, @06:50PM
Thank you for years of tireless (and often thankless) service. You made this a better place.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Taxi Dudinous on Tuesday May 06, @10:09PM
I'm sad to see you go. I hope we do not have to miss you.
Fare thee well Jan!