I was going to post this to a particular story, but thought this might generate more attention and discussion as a general submission.
Seriously, what is going on with all these troll mods? Just because you disagree with someone, thus earning a "disagree" mod, does not mean that person is a "troll." To steal a definition from Urban Dictionary:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
Just because you disagree with someone, does not mean they are trying to do the above. Be faster on the "disagree" and slower on the "troll." Under such abuse, it is hard to have a good discussion and, in itself, is trollish behavior by "generally disrupt[ing] normal on-topic discussion." Other than people disciplining themselves, a concerted effort to police such abuses, or making moderation logs public on the bottom of a comment where the score is shown now, I'm unsure of what to do about. As it stands, it is getting increasingly ridiculous to read what discussion is here on any topic remotely controversial, and is expanding outside of even those. It is starting to drive me away from the site, and I'm somewhat confident it is doing the same for others. I'd be interested to see what others think about the depth of the problem, if they even believe it even exists at all, and what solutions you all have for it.
[Ed note. This story is published exactly as received. First off, it bears repeating that complaining about moderations in the comments often leads (rightly) to an off-topic moderation. That is a contributing factor to my decision to run this story. Secondly, moderation is something that I on occasion have found I've fat-fingered and given a different moderation than expected. Thirdly, in the grand scheme of things, a comment's moderation is — relatively speaking — small potatoes. It is NOT a measure of your IQ or value as a human being. or standing in the community. Just accept that stuff happens and that as likely as not, someone will be along to moderate it the other way. Which is a good opportunity to say: PLEASE USE YOUR MOD POINTS! Lastly, if you think a comment was moderated in error, then send the CID (Comment ID) link e.g. "(#876543)" in an email to admin (at) soylentnews (dot) org. Keep in mind however that we are all volunteers here and there most likely will be a delay between when you send out an email and when we can get around to it. --martyb]
[Updated: 20190823_111312 UTC See comment from JR who far more precisely and eloquently expressed the idea I was attempting to. I concur with his assessment. If I want people to upmod a comment of mine that I believe was unfairly downmodded, then I need to be willing to upmod other's mis-modded comments. For perspective, so far this month, anywhere from ~150-~350 mod points were used in any given day. It bears repeating: use your mod points!]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday August 23 2019, @12:19PM (45 children)
With all due respect, you are a naive fool and it's that kind of softheadedness that's letting this place turn into an alt-right cesspit.
Wake up, Jan. There are such things as influence campaigns. There are insane far-right groups, from the large to small (and some of our posters are cells of one all by themselves...) who run disinformation and intimidation and well-poisoning campaigns. We have people who are professed burn-it-all-down types on here, people who either think that destruction will give rise to new creation in their image or who just, as the quote goes, want to see the world burn.
You do yourself no favors by taking the high road; they are *laughing* at you, because in their eyes that is a kind of weakness that justifies anything they want to do and only adds fuel to their fire.
Sorry if you don't like this, but it's reality. I hate myself for typing this, and for being so confrontational, but this is the truth and it's happening here. In parallel to the Internet's hideous failures of IT security is a failure of the mind and of critical thought, driven IMO by the same statistical illiteracy and naivete about human nature too.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Friday August 23 2019, @12:40PM (4 children)
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:08AM (3 children)
Not necessarily. That's one thing he could do, but I'd prefer instead he start publicly and loudly deconstructing said posts, so I'm not the only one or almost the only one stuck doing so. You're a prime target, and I'd be very interested in seeing him shred you, as the impression I have of him is that he's more than capable...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:04AM
I put my time in too, tangling with, for example, flat Earthers, Islamophobes, anti-vaxxers, Chicken Littles, and anti-capitalists, defending your precious bodily fluids from the dregs of the internet. And yes, you're welcome.
I imagine he'll need a better reason for it than "Azuma doesn't like."
(Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Saturday August 24 2019, @06:58AM (1 child)
So now I have to make comments just so that I can please you? I will comment on things that I want to comment on - not ones that are dictated by you. I'd 'prefer' that you get on with your life and leave me to get on with mine. There is no obligation on any member of staff to make comments to suit you.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday August 27 2019, @10:56AM
Even as a member of the staff, you still don't have a standing in requesting that others must use the Troll modding the way you find appropriate.
Yes, you still have the right to express it as an opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Friday August 23 2019, @12:52PM (28 children)
So by having a point of view that is different to yours, I am somehow providing support to the alt-right or the far left? I am being influenced by 'influencers'? I should mark down views that you do not like as trolls merely because you don't agree with them? The bogey men are out to get us all, is that it?
What a load of rubbish. If someone is spouting garbage they tend to get modded down, but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily trolling. If they are disrupting the site or other people's ability to express themselves then, yes, mod them appropriately - which is Trolling in my book. If they are always repeating their political viewpoint in threads where such views are Off Topic then, again, mod them appropriately. But having a different point of view is merely disagreement - much like I disagree with what you have written.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 23 2019, @01:34PM (4 children)
That's something the ctrl-left cannot stomach. They strive to be so righteous (in their minds), that if you have a contrary opinion, you must be an evil fascist racist denying oppressor who must be silenced for the good of humanity itself.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 23 2019, @02:51PM (3 children)
Right on queue. No one called for censorship but everyone should stand up to your nonsense instead of letting it fester in the open.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday August 23 2019, @04:00PM (2 children)
He didn't say "censorship", that was all you. Punishment would fit his statement just as well and punishment it most certainly is.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 23 2019, @09:37PM (1 child)
Their statement: "if you have a contrary opinion, you [...] must be silenced [...]."
vs.
Definition of censorship: "Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or 'inconvenient.'"
Whether you are directly blocking someone from publishing something or punishing someone for doing so, you are still suppressing their speech. Would you consider the infamous trial against Socrates censorship, or do you consider censorship a modern invention?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:17AM
Don't play semantics with me, Sonny Jim. You know perfectly well he had "downmodding is not censorship, you can still view it if you want" in his pocket and ready to go. You're not fooling anyone.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Friday August 23 2019, @09:15PM (3 children)
Then what would be your suggested solution where someone is actually posting an on-topic post, but then throws in some political views, likely just to rile people up?
For example, we have a user here whose name I likely won't even have to mention, who likes to make horrible random remarks about Jews. (Actually, there are more than just one, but I'm talking about a specific prominent one.) This person sometimes has insightful comments overall, but will throw in a random remark about Jews at the end of an otherwise interesting post.
I really don't doubt said person may even legitimately hold the views he spouts about Jews. Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. But what I'm certain about is that said person is bringing up said views primarily to do things that are disruptive to discussion -- whether that's to annoy people who disagree, or to try to make anti-Semitic discourse more "normal" and prominent, or whatever.
As far as I'm concerned, the only reasonable match among our choices for moderation there is "troll." "Disagree" is not enough when the person is spouting hateful and offensive things that are objectively wrong as mischaracterizations of an entire ethnic group. "Offtopic" is not quite right, as the overall post is on-topic -- it's just including offensive statements. It may be a legitimately held opinion or it may be someone just trying to annoy people, but what it most certainly is doing is disrupting civil discourse on this site.
What's your preferred remedy there?
(Score: 3, Disagree) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:22AM (2 children)
Personally, I ignore it. Offense can only be taken not given. It might be worth dropping an otherwise +5 comment down to +4 or +3 with Overrated but it's not worth burying one that contributes anything useful.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @10:42AM (1 child)
Disagree. If you offer to loan me a wrench covered in dog shit, if it's not an emergency, I'll pass on the loan, even though that wrench would work just fine.
Shit stinks. When race baiting gets tacked on to something useful, it's like freeware that comes with cryptomining. No thanks. My computational power can be better spent elsewhere.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:33PM
Thus the mouse wheel. A flick of the middle finger and there's no more EF on your screen. If only my middle finger were that effective offline...
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by aristarchus on Friday August 23 2019, @09:27PM (4 children)
It is not the difference of opinion, my dear janrinok, that Azuma Hazuki points out, it is the naivete, the unknowing, the ignorance. But you see, if you have this explained to you, and you double down and resort to "difference of opinion", you either are so ignorant that discussion is hopeless, or you are pretending and arguing in bad faith: in other words, a Troll.
Hi, khallow!
(Score: 3, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:23AM (3 children)
You mean it is "The bullshit excuse of the day to silence those I don't like listening to", don't you?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:17AM (2 children)
Shut up, you Migrant Buzztard! I do not like listening to you! There! You have been censored. Deal with it.
And, um, who was getting all down modded because others disagree with him?
(Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:19AM (1 child)
I think that was because you were blowing your own horn a little too loudly today. Telling you not to play music is censorship. Telling you I can hear it from five blocks away and it's bloody well 3am and where precisely would you like this half a brick in a sock to hit you first is not.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday August 24 2019, @05:21AM
So, got your attention? Now about these alt-right types, and neo-Nazis, pretending to be American Vienna Circle libertarians, . . .
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:35AM (13 children)
Way to miss the point. Okay, Jan, believe what you want. But the fact that you took what I said as "censor people" kind of makes me worry that you're already a lost cause :/ That's the kind of naivete I'm talking about, and that's what allows the very same sneering, contemptuous approach I spoke of to be so successful.
Here's a clue: it is possible to fight back without censoring. I do it all the time. I confront these people and vivisect their self-serving poisonous bullshit, usually on a daily basis. Rarely ever a word of thanks for it either. I'd like to see you do some more of that, though to your credit I've seen a few instances already.
Get in their faces. Tell them they are full of shit, why they are full of shit, that their shit doesn't fool you, and let everyone else spectating know in minute detail. We're past the point where the internet can be considered neutral ground, and by all the goddesses, if you don't defend it it'll be taken from you.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday August 24 2019, @07:08AM (3 children)
Good, that is exactly what you should do. And if I feel I support the argument at the time I may also moderate you appropriately, or even comment with my own views. And nowhere have I suggested that censorship is a solution to a problem in this thread. You are reading what you want to read and not what is being said.
Why - because you want me to? We have a community here, and any of them can comment to support you if they wish. Why is it suddenly, in your view, my job to back you up?
I am not being naive, I am not unaware of what is happening, nor am I being hoodwinked by one particular faction or another. But nobody has the right to tell me what views I must comment on and who I should support in discussions. Perhaps you should try getting out of my face please?
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday August 27 2019, @01:54PM (2 children)
What Azuma should do but not you, jan? One wonders why? You having a kinda royally exemption from all the things that others should do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday August 27 2019, @05:21PM (1 child)
Where have I advocated censorship? The topic is a discussion on moderation. No-one has suggested censorship.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday August 27 2019, @11:50PM
Pay him no mind, he's just trolling.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday August 24 2019, @09:09AM (8 children)
She is "that girl" that your mother warned you about, and she is kicking your shit six ways to Sunday, janrinok. Best to declare victory and leave, like Vietnam or Iraq, or the Fucking Falklands. Just saying.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:36PM (7 children)
Jan won this conversation as soon as it started. He's a rational, levelheaded guy with an excellent attitude. That's always going beat someone whose posts are made up of profanity, insults, and uncontrolled rage.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday August 25 2019, @07:05PM (6 children)
Tone trolling has replaced patriotism as the last refuge of the scoundrel. Not that you'd know patriotism if it shoved its big green bronze-cast torch up your ass of course, but the point still stands. Someone can be insulting, angry, loud, and nasty, and still entirely correct. If it's too much for you, why don't you leave? :) Free Speech after all!
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday August 26 2019, @03:28PM (5 children)
You alone spout more hatred and pointless insults than the entire rest of the community combined. Calling you out on being a horrible cunt with no actual content aside from insults and venom to most of your posts is not tone trolling.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday August 26 2019, @10:29PM (4 children)
What is it like to be so weak, so fragile, so utterly powerless, that words injure you?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday August 27 2019, @02:31AM (3 children)
You tell me. You're the one getting all defensive about being called out as a vile nasty bitch.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday August 28 2019, @01:13AM (2 children)
Because it's beside the point. You are far viler and nastier than I am in your heart of hearts, and one of the easiest proofs of this is that you think an outward veneer of civility is a substitute for inner moral fiber. I may be "vile" and "nasty" but 1) so are you and 2) I'm actually *correct.*
Do you really think anyone with three sparking neurons can't see the bullshit tone-trolling game you're playing? You insult this entire forum every time you play that card.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday August 28 2019, @02:04AM (1 child)
"No, you!" is your response? Really? Do me a favor.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday August 28 2019, @10:20PM
No, historically that's been *your* response. And Hallow's, but you use it almost as often. At least you're always good for a short, dirty laugh if I need one...I'm a bit worried my sense of humor is degenerating to the point I find people like you amusing in their self-defeating Ouroboros dances though. Oh well, hard times coarsen a person, I suppose...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 23 2019, @03:18PM
that's a laugh
(Score: 2) by Bot on Friday August 23 2019, @04:01PM
>this place turn into an alt-right cesspit.
Somehow reddot is not big enough for all your politically correct discussions? I ask because, after posting stuff that made it to reddot gold, I got a ban because the truth incites violence or something like that. So, I ended up here.
You gotta thank reddot basically.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Friday August 23 2019, @04:20PM (4 children)
Azuma, the only response in a free society to a prevailing perception, or a perceived prevailing perception, is to counter it with all the wit and logic you can. If you think a majority is in error, it is incumbent upon you to challenge it.
Free speech and democracy are not qualities that are won or defended by the timid. They have to be fought for every day, everywhere, by everyone. Freedom and democracy only exist in the tension between people with different points of view. It's true generally, but it's also true on SN.
The idea of silencing anyone for "wrongthink" through troll mods or some other artifice fills me with horror. Suggesting that anyone should not be allowed to express an opinion that is "wrongthink" totally and instantly annuls any value that the censor's argument has. It says that the censor himself does not believe his own views have enough merit to stand up next to others'.
I'm going to suggest something upsetting: people we disagree strongly with make valid points, too.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Friday August 23 2019, @07:31PM
That's true sometimes but not all the time. I haven't seen very many posts on here modded Troll that were making valid, qualified points in a respectful manner.
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:28AM (2 children)
And what precisely do you think I'm doing on this site? You've seen me in action. Look at what happens when Runaway or Hallow or Uzzard or J-Mo come by and drop a load of steaming stenching brain-diarrhea; more often than not I'm along shortly to point out to those who may be deceived that 1) it *is* shit despite the originators telling them it's chocolate and to take a big bite and 2) WHY it's shit.
But we have a problem of entropy here: it's a lot easier to shit on the carpet than to clean the shitstains out of the carpet, and it's also fucking exhausting to try, especially when there's virtually no payoff.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Mykl on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:05AM (1 child)
Azuma, many of your rebuttals to people tend to either consist of telling them that they are terrible people, or attacking them for their posting history rather than the content of the actual post in question. I've called you on that before, and your reply was something to the effect of "Yes, but this is a terrible person who has a history of terrible posts - don't be fooled by this one!"
Shouting at people and calling them shit-stains is not the same as engaging in reasoned debate. And if your response is to say "There's no point in debating these people - they are beyond reason", then what do you hope to gain by replying at all? It's not like they are going to change their mind through personal insults.
More often than not, I tend to agree with your position on the matter being debated, but I am rarely able to agree with the manner in which you do so. The level of vitriol that comes from some of your posts is simply too high, and in my opinion it tends to de-value the points that you're trying to make.
I'm posting this because I really value your perspective and different viewpoint to other prominent posters here (I don't want a monoculture) and I want to continue to hear your views on topics we discuss. I just find it hard to keep reading when you start shouting at people.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @09:18AM
Yeah! I hate when people do that to racists, misogynists, anti-trans folks, and Nazis! I mean, how does calling them terrible people further a dialogue where it might be the case that aryan races are in fact, historically, superior to the inferior races? Such hatred is just so unhelpful! If only we could have serious discussion, like, perhaps about The Skulls on our caps [youtube.com]. Are they the Baddies? Why skulls? Because they are the baddies.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:53AM (3 children)
Exaggeration much? It seems every libertarian, republican, and Bernie supporter is a member of the great alt-right internet invasion these days.
If people start disagreeing about Google's right to censor Hong Kong posters, will you petition Soylent to turn off anonymous posting here as well?
(Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:22AM (2 children)
Not gonna happen. For starters I'd have to figure out how and I can't be arsed to put that much effort into keeping out stupid. Stupid will always find a way.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Touché) by c0lo on Tuesday August 27 2019, @01:59PM (1 child)
Keeping our stupid? Why, TMB, you are already in the thick of the things, nobody can keep you out! Not even you (grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday August 27 2019, @11:51PM
See, now that was a credible burn. +1 for you.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.