SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
I was going to post this to a particular story, but thought this might generate more attention and discussion as a general submission.
Seriously, what is going on with all these troll mods? Just because you disagree with someone, thus earning a "disagree" mod, does not mean that person is a "troll." To steal a definition from Urban Dictionary:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
Just because you disagree with someone, does not mean they are trying to do the above. Be faster on the "disagree" and slower on the "troll." Under such abuse, it is hard to have a good discussion and, in itself, is trollish behavior by "generally disrupt[ing] normal on-topic discussion." Other than people disciplining themselves, a concerted effort to police such abuses, or making moderation logs public on the bottom of a comment where the score is shown now, I'm unsure of what to do about. As it stands, it is getting increasingly ridiculous to read what discussion is here on any topic remotely controversial, and is expanding outside of even those. It is starting to drive me away from the site, and I'm somewhat confident it is doing the same for others. I'd be interested to see what others think about the depth of the problem, if they even believe it even exists at all, and what solutions you all have for it.
[Ed note. This story is published exactly as received. First off, it bears repeating that complaining about moderations in the comments often leads (rightly) to an off-topic moderation. That is a contributing factor to my decision to run this story. Secondly, moderation is something that I on occasion have found I've fat-fingered and given a different moderation than expected. Thirdly, in the grand scheme of things, a comment's moderation is — relatively speaking — small potatoes. It is NOT a measure of your IQ or value as a human being. or standing in the community. Just accept that stuff happens and that as likely as not, someone will be along to moderate it the other way. Which is a good opportunity to say: PLEASE USE YOUR MOD POINTS! Lastly, if you think a comment was moderated in error, then send the CID (Comment ID) link e.g. "(#876543)" in an email to admin (at) soylentnews (dot) org. Keep in mind however that we are all volunteers here and there most likely will be a delay between when you send out an email and when we can get around to it. --martyb]
[Updated: 20190823_111312 UTC See comment from JR who far more precisely and eloquently expressed the idea I was attempting to. I concur with his assessment. If I want people to upmod a comment of mine that I believe was unfairly downmodded, then I need to be willing to upmod other's mis-modded comments. For perspective, so far this month, anywhere from ~150-~350 mod points were used in any given day. It bears repeating: use your mod points!]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Friday August 23 2019, @09:45AM (29 children)
So exactly how is one SUPPOSED to mod inflammatory babbling?
It is a huge problem on this site. What should be discussion about some specific technical issue gets filled with pages of off topic, trollish, inflammatory blather about "alt-left" "alt-right" or whatever that borderlines on spam. Perhaps that political jargon mean something to a few people, but for most it is meaningless and annoying. If there is an opinion in there, nobody sees it.
Several posts at the top illustrate how they fit in multiple categories, but it seem natural to call the poster a "troll".
Quite frankly, it has gotten to the point where I usually just leave it because I will run out of mod point too quickly modding all of that crap down.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Friday August 23 2019, @10:31AM (8 children)
Parent is already at 5 insightful, so I'll just repeat:
If a post is bringing up the same old trope - either side of a tired debate only tangentially related to the current discussion, particularly when there's nothing new or interesting in the post... is it anything other than trolling for a response "from the other side?"
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by isj on Friday August 23 2019, @11:32AM
If a post is only vaguely related to the topic and doesn't bring anything to the table I mod it off-topic.
I don't recall ever modding a post troll. Perhaps because I stay away from the US-centric political discussions.
I do wish for a "uninsightful" moderation sometimes when a poster clearly didn't even read the summary and just posted a knee-jerk reaction.
(Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Friday August 23 2019, @11:41AM
I would choose Off Topic.
And I agree that repetitive or inflammatory babbling is Trolling. But simply having a different, even extreme in your eyes, point of view is simply that - someone who has a different point of view. Those who live outside the USA see this all the time. Supporters in the US of either party claim that the other is at the opposite end of the political spectrum, whereas to those outside both US parties are to the right of centre although one is significantly more than the other. So if we sometimes express our political point of view we are seen as extremists or communists! Are we really trolling by expressing our viewpoints? I would argue not.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Friday August 23 2019, @01:53PM (5 children)
As someone who was hit just a couple days ago with a Troll mod that was pretty clearly a Disagree mod (others counteracted the downmod before I'd even noticed), and been mod-bombed in the past (and was targeted for a mod-bomb on the green site back in the day as well):
If your response to an on-topic viewpoint backed by science and reason is to immediately downmod it as "Troll", then I'm going to assume that you did so not because you believe what I said was trolling, nor because you have any interest in honest debate, but because you've abandoned debate in favor of an online attempt at argumentum ad baculum. If you find yourself reaching for the mod dropdown because there's a well-reasoned post that disagrees with the things you believe to be self-evidently true, then you might do well to see if you can respond effectively to the point, or consider questioning your self-evident truths. The main reason that is preferable is to reduce the odds you go through life believing in self-evident truths that aren't true.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Friday August 23 2019, @03:09PM (3 children)
When you call up Scott Bakula and get him to argue for you?
Oh. Joking aside, good point. Assuming the poster's references aren't from obscure and suspicious sources. And their refs actually support their viewpoint, not directly contradict them 2 sentences in lol
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 23 2019, @04:02PM
More generally, argumentum ad baculum is about applying intimidation rather than facts or reason to try to win a debate. "You say those things, I'm going to hurt you!" is the basic form.
If the posters' sources are obscure or suspicious, then counter their point with less obscure and less suspicious sources, or demonstrate that their sources are not to be trusted. For instance, if your opponent cited the Daily Stormer, you can either show that the specific story is wrong by demonstrating that their description of events fails to match the video footage of the event shown by MSNBC, CNN, the New York Times, Fox News, and the BBC, or you can argue that the Daily Stormer is a Neo-Nazi propaganda outlet and thus is not to be trusted on its own.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Friday August 23 2019, @04:05PM (1 child)
AKA argumentum ad mentulam.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 23 2019, @04:32PM
Sed mentula mea maior et crassior est.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday August 23 2019, @04:00PM
My "Troll Test" is this:
Does the poster appear, through the content of their writing, to be smelly, fat, and sitting under a bridge just waiting for innocent passers by so the poster can assault them with his boring, redundant, long winded recitation of sticky arguments which mostly serve to impede progress?
Posters' self regard for the amount and quality of scientific or otherwise reference material and research supposedly backing up their opinions, and likewise their self opinion of the reasonableness of their stated positions have little standing.
Maybe we could also add a "-1 do not enjoy this conversation" mod?
I still can't keep myself from occasionally feeding the trolls - if for no other reason than to get a more well rounded picture of their point of view.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday August 23 2019, @04:16PM (17 children)
If you think it's a genuinely held belief by the poster and is on-topic, not at all. There are no Uninsightful or Bloody Stupid moderation choices for a reason. Downmods are supposed to be for things that are not part of a conversation likely to be of interest to anyone, not for things you don't like. I don't find ari's socialist prattling particularly Interesting or Insightful (occasionally Funny though), so I pass it by entirely rather than downmodding it. Azuma's nonsense I often give a bit of -1 to when it's not directed at me because the insults are a textbook example of trying to piss people off rather than have a genuine discussion of any sort, even heated.
tl;dr Upmods = "this is worth discussing", Downmods = "no conversation of perceived value to anyone will come of this"
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:44AM (2 children)
Oh horseshit. You don't like that I'm direct, in your face, and not "playing by the rules" you expect people you pin as "leftists" to play by, e.g., that I don't whine for civility above all and I'm not afraid to dirty my hands with your blood. You hate prey that bites back, or worse, prey that acts like a predator.
ALL my conflicts with you come down to the fact that you are as self-centered as a gyroscope, as dense as neutronium, and would be a civilization-ending disaster should you ever gain any appreciable amount of political power. You say you base your worldview on "liberty," but you then redefine liberty to be "free to make whatever choices one has available," regardless of what those choices may be and no matter how horrible. Any objection, such as "a starving man is not in any practical sense of the word free," is met with whataboutism, Gish Galloping, obstruction, juvenile attempts at mockery, or plain ol' ostrich-posturing.
Do you really think we don't all have your number at this point?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Redundant) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:24AM (1 child)
Exactly. Thanks for the fine example.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @09:37AM
You have been pegged, TMB. Better to accept it than to fight it, as that only ads to the disemblence of your persona.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday August 27 2019, @02:16PM (13 children)
Repeatedly lying again and again, for years at end, doesn't make those posts useful even if the poster believe them.
Give me a '-1 Compulsive Lier" mod and I'll stop using the Troll one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday August 27 2019, @11:53PM (12 children)
Not gonna happen. Incorrect information needs a rebuttal not a moderation. There is a reason we don't have Like/Dislike as mods.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 28 2019, @12:12AM (11 children)
Sorry, mate, if you really believe that you are naive.
I can bury you in one hour under an amount of incorrect information you will need a lifetime to "rebutte" - simply because it's cheap for me to lie and expensive to you to prove that I'm lying (it's called the Gish gallop [wikipedia.org])
And can repeat the process every day - and you say this won't make me a troll? Do you give strong warranties that you'll revert every troll mod if I try?
Fact: "You are abusing your position of power. It's clear you do, even if you do it unconsciously and believe you are doing a good thing"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday August 28 2019, @12:48AM (9 children)
Correct. That you're already a troll would render it irrelevant. Now if you were earnest in all of your postings it likewise would not make you a troll, only incorrect. You know, like you are right now. Trolling requires intent to wind people up, as you very well know.
No, I'm abusing the meaning of the word "troll". And you a little bit for the pure kek of it.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 28 2019, @01:15AM (2 children)
Still an abuse, with consequences made possible only by your position. So, bottom line, you are still abusing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday August 28 2019, @02:06AM (1 child)
The day an admin can't mock a user for saying/doing something bloody stupid is the day every admin across the world retires.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 28 2019, @02:16AM
Meh, for some values of admin.
You'll have to demonstrate your claim that what I said is bloody stupid before mocking me, have you not?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday August 29 2019, @03:01AM (5 children)
I don't read people minds, I can't know if the other person is earnest or actually trolling; even more so on a forum (see Poe's law for example).
As such, I don't have any moral qualms in applying a "Troll" mod after I'm seeing that behavior over years and in spite of arguments demonstrating the falsity.
And no, I'm not troll-modding genuinely expressed opinions - i.e. "I think/believe", "to my mind", etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday August 29 2019, @04:17AM (4 children)
You don't need to read minds, you just need to have interacted with another human being once or twice.
I'd personally rather you were. Factually incorrect but genuinely believed comments do contribute positively to the conversation because they invite correction. Kind of like Keynesian economic theory but it actually works. They should either receive that correction by a comment so that the whole community can benefit from your information or left alone if you're too lazy. Hiding them only allows the stupid to fester.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday August 29 2019, @05:07AM (3 children)
Should I understand you place jmorris outside human race?
'Cause his statements on facts are lies quite often, I'm simply tired to assume he's believing so falsities and obstinately refuse to correct them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday August 29 2019, @10:31AM (2 children)
You're saying you don't have the stamina for rational debate so you try to silence the opposition? Yeah, I figured as much.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday August 29 2019, @10:51AM (1 child)
Well, do you? I didn't find any of your rebuttals to jmorris lies.
So, what is it: you believe him or don't consider truth important or don't have the stamina yourself or ... what?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday August 30 2019, @12:41PM
Plenty of people are generally quicker on the draw for those of his that I deem absurd and I see no need to post a comment along the lines of "What he said!".
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 29 2019, @01:14AM
He really is. "He may talk like an idiot, and act like an idiot, but don't let that fool you, he really is an idiot." Groucho Marx, Duck Soup, 1933. Fascist days, if you know what I mean.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:55AM (1 child)
-1 Flamebait
-1 Flamebait
Minus One. Flamebait
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @07:55PM
OK, OK, so in other words "troll" is overused and other down mods should be considered first. But down is still down.