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posted by martyb on Friday June 25 2021, @12:50PM   Printer-friendly
from the The-Mod-Squad dept.

There has been some discussion about moderation on this site leading to some misconceptions and misstatements. This story is an attempt to set things straight. It lays out the historical underpinnings for moderation, history of its implementation on Slashdot, and its later refinement on SoylentNews.

Before that, though, I am going to take this opportunity to thank fnord666 who is out Alternate Editor-in-Chief. I could not handle the load alone and his efforts have made a huge difference! Further, please join me in thanking him as he reached a new milestone: over 6,500 stories posted to the site! Many a late night or rare free moment has been generously given to the site. Teamwork++!

History:
The code for this site is a fork of code written for Slashdot. In that site's early days, it was apparent that some comments were much more interesting and informative than others. It was just as apparent that some users would just as gleefully troll the community. Moderation was conceived as a way to sift the wheat from the chaff and help users more easily avoid the "lesser" comments and more easily find the "gems".

Further, to encourage posting "good" comments, Karma was introduced. "Good" comments earned Karma; "bad" comments lost Karma. Moderation was a mechanism by which Karma could be allocated.

Slashdot experimented with several ways to moderate comments. First, it was just the staff who could moderate. Soon, there were too many comments to keep up, so a select group of members from the community were invited to moderate comments. Again, that failed to scale up, so those who had been selected were invited to recommend still other users to moderate. And, again, there were scaling issues.

Solution: make Mod Points (modpoints) available to every registered user in good standing and who indicated in their preferences that they were willing to moderate.

Originally, mod points were handed out randomly and expired after something like 6 hours: "Use 'em or lose 'em".

For the most part, that seemed to work. But there were some perceived issues and meta-moderation was implemented and introduced — moderate the moderations. Unfortunately, it experienced many of the same issues that it was supposed to rectify with comments, just one level abstracted. Further, it was unwieldy and when all was said and done, didn't work all that well, anyway.

Early Tweaking:
Such was the state of things when SoylentNews started. Well sort of. The code base we started with was not current and the meta-moderation code was broken. So much so, that meta-moderation was ripped out of the code just so regular moderation could be made to work. With that behind us, we finally we had a working moderation system on our site. Yay!

That worked okay for a while, but we found ourselves with complaints from many users that they wanted to moderate and lacked mod points. Nice problem to have, right? This was combined with many more comments than moderations. It was thought that we needed more mod points made available to the community. So, after unsuccessfully tweaking the mod point allocation algorithm, it was decided to just not expire mod points until day's end. Every user in good standing got 5 mod points each morning (00:10 UTC) and those were available until day's end whereupon any remaining modpoints were reset and a new set of 5 of modpoints were allocated.

That helped! But jerks will be jerks.

Mod Bombs:
We started to run into problems with "mod bombs" where one user "A" would apply all 5 of their mod points to downmod one other user "B". So code was written to allow checking for such moderations. Staff could generate a report and find such activity. It was decided that:

If you used ALL of your modpoints to downmod ONE user, that was a modbomb. IOW, 5 downmods bad; 4 downmods were permitted.

Initially, anyone who "modbombed" was manually given a "timeout". The first time earned a one month suspension of moderation privileges. A second occurrence earned a six month suspension.

Later, because there were still many more comments than moderations, the number of modpoints allocated to each registered user having good Karma was increased from 5 to 10 per day. The modbomb threshold was, however, kept the same: 4 downmods was still okay, 5 (or more) downmods to the same user was "bad".

A complication arose in that there is no easy way for users to keep track of how many downmods they had made on one other user. User "A" may do 3 downmods of user "B" in the morning and 4 down mods of other (unrelated) users. In the afternoon they might perform 2 more downmods of user "B". Purely unintentional transgression. When you only have 5 mod points it was reasonable to assume that a user could mentally track how many times they downmodded a single user in one day. With 10 daily mod points available, that became less reasonable.

So, along with the allocation of 10 modpoints per day (easy) it was intended to have code written that would kick in when processing moderations: when the threshold was exceeded, the excess downmods would be automatically rejected. And that is still the intent.

The upshot of all that is that when checking for modbombs, we no longer give a "timeout" for 5 downmods against a single user in one day. We just revert the excess mods. We do take note of repeated excesses and are fully prepared to issue a "timeout" when warranted. (e.g. 8 downmods in one day, or several days in close proximity targeting the same user. This is not done unilaterally but rather in consultation with other staff for confirmation.)

Sock Bombs:
First, there some who failed to take the hint that, maybe, they should take a look at what they were posting when they received repeated downmods. We are a community, not your personal soapbox. So, they created new ("sock puppet") accounts and proceeded to upmod their own comments, aka a "sockbomb". Staff have ways to note such behavior based on the IPID and SUBNETID that is recorded with every comment and every moderation. We try to give the benefit of the doubt. But, certain patterns do become apparent and are not tolerated. Upmodding your own comment is grounds for an immediate moderation ban.

Second, just as there is a limit on how many downmods can be targeted at one user in a day, so there is a limit on upmods. The same limits apply, each user "A" is limited to 4 upmods of user "B" in a given day, just like for "modbombs". Again with the caveat of no up-mods of your own account..

Summary:
Our experience is that the current system could stand some refinement, automation of transgression detection and mitigation is in plan (but it will be a while), but for the most part, what we have works well in the vast majority of cases. In short, Wheaton's Law still applies: "don't be a dick". Following that seems to work the best for the most. (With apologies to anyone named Richard. =)


Original Submission

 
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  • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday June 25 2021, @04:04PM (9 children)

    by RS3 (6367) on Friday June 25 2021, @04:04PM (#1149142)

    I think that's the purpose of "Underrated", but I don't think I've ever used it.

    If there's any hierarchy, as far as I can tell, "Insighful" is probably the top, then "Informative", then "Interesting". But of course they all have the same point value. Which dovetails into thoughts about a much finer grained mod system, more hierarchy in moderators' power, and generally a more agile development of the mod system...

    Starting Score:    1  point
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   2  
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by mhajicek on Friday June 25 2021, @04:10PM (8 children)

    by mhajicek (51) on Friday June 25 2021, @04:10PM (#1149145)

    I've used "underrated" on posts that appear to have been inappropriately downmoded.

    --
    The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @06:48PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @06:48PM (#1149244)

      That will add to the displayed points, but does not add to karma

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @11:59PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @11:59PM (#1149406)
        Well, that's fucked up. Another example of how moderation is broken.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 26 2021, @07:56PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 26 2021, @07:56PM (#1149729)

          This is a minor issue, moderation is not "broken". It only seems that way to people who want to monopolize and weaponize it. So far it has shown to be very robust against such shit.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 26 2021, @10:22PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 26 2021, @10:22PM (#1149767)
            Robust? Moderation is a huge incentive to create sock puppets. This is acknowledged right in the article we're posting under.

            Rather tham moderate, comment. The comments, unlike moderation, give reasons why you support or disagree with something, or add more information or a different perspective. Moderation pales in comparison. One reason not to create an account - because user moderation is broken and has been since it was first invented.

            Even NCommander recognized this.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 27 2021, @01:12AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 27 2021, @01:12AM (#1149813)

              Yeah, downmodding is usually political chickenshit stuff, but at least it's limited to an extent. I upmod comments I agree with because I have nothing to add to the conversation, my view was already expressed. It's the downmodders that should have to explain themselves. They are so petty

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday June 27 2021, @11:41AM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday June 27 2021, @11:41AM (#1149923) Journal

              Moderation is a huge incentive to create sock puppets.

              Moderation isn't a huge incentive to do anything.

    • (Score: 2) by dx3bydt3 on Friday June 25 2021, @09:54PM

      by dx3bydt3 (82) on Friday June 25 2021, @09:54PM (#1149356)

      I do the same, especially for posts where I disagree with the content. I don't want to imply that I think a comment is insightful/interesting, just that it has been unfairly modded down.

    • (Score: 4, Funny) by VanessaE on Saturday June 26 2021, @10:33AM

      by VanessaE (3396) <vanessa.e.dannenberg@gmail.com> on Saturday June 26 2021, @10:33AM (#1149574) Journal

      Nah, you're totally missing the point of "Underrated": it's purely for helping posts reach (5, Flamebait), (5, Troll), and so on.

      None of this silly "inappropriately downmodded" business. 🙂