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posted by martyb on Friday August 20 2021, @10:00AM   Printer-friendly

Milestone #1:
First off, please join me in congratulating janrinok in posting his 5,400th story! I can attest that it represents a tremendous commitment of time and effort, all freely given to the community. Thanks JR!

Milestone #2:
Secondly, we are a few days away from our team reaching 2.8 billion points towards Folding at Home. Official Team Stats and a more informative summary. As I write this, our team is currently ranked #392 in the world. Please be aware we are up against teams such as AWS, Google, Apple, Facebook, SAP, IBM, Dell, Oracle... you get the idea. Our top contributor is Runaway1956 who has been contributing about 2.5 million points per day. Barring any surprises, he is on track to reach 1 billion points by month's end. Way to go!

Moderation:
Lastly, I need to call the community's attention to some problems with moderations.

For the most part, things have been working out well! Considering the diverse viewpoints — and strong feelings about them — I'd say things are working amazingly well. There are some, however, who are prolific, vocal, strong-willed, and are trying to push their own agenda. They are likely to be unhappy with these changes. Until notified otherwise, feel free to moderate complaints about moderation as "-1 Offtopic" and just move on.

Effective Immediately:
For the benefit of the community who have been acting in good faith all along, staff will commence issuing moderation bans on accounts that have been acting unfairly. Each ban will have been discussed among staff and no unilateral action will be taken. If you receive a ban, it's because a majority of staff are in agreement that unfair moderations have been performed and needed to be dealt with.

Tools:
Staff have been developing tools and procedures for tracking moderation abuse for some time, and we are now reaching the stage where we can take action against offenders. It is necessary for these tools to provide a high degree of confidence to avoid false positives. We now have that confidence.

What's the Point?
Moderation is intended for the community to decrease the visibility of "poor" comments and to improve the visibility of "good" comments. Note the word "comments". The user who posted the comment should have no bearing on your moderation. (If it does, you are doing it wrong.) Express your disagreement either by presenting a counter argument in a new comment, or by using a "-1 Disagree" mod — that's what it's there for. As one staff member noted: "If you find almost everything another user posts objectionable, then moderation is not the solution — simply foe him, and set your preferences for foes to a suitably-low negative value."

Goal:
We have tried to provide the tools for the community to moderate itself. This has worked out well for the most part! Here's a big thank you to those who quietly go along and try to make SoylentNews a better place each day.

Sockpuppet Accounts:
These are hereby forbidden. If staff detects collusion in moderation, that is grounds for an immediate ban on moderation. Acct #1 and acct #2 both moderating acct #3 in lockstep? Ban. Acct #1 upmoding acct #2 and acct #2 upmodding acct #1 to boost karma? Ban.

The guidelines had previously stated that more than 4 downmods per day were forbidden, excess would be reversed. We have seen cases where user "A" has downmodded user "B" exactly 4 times per day for many days in a row. This demonstrates intentional action of one user against another user. Because such actions do have negative consequences on the visibility of user "B"'s posts and journals, they are effectively an act of censorship, and are strongly frowned upon; therefore staff reserves the right to take action up to an including a mod ban, at our sole discretion.

There are more instances; this list is NOT intended to be exhaustive.

Notice:
Think you can get away with something? Just because you have not seen us act so far, does not mean we have not noticed. If you persist, you're doing so at your own risk. Please do not come crying to us or the community when your schemes backfire — you have been warned. As mentioned earlier, complaints about moderation and moderation bans are off-topic and are to be moderated that way.

Summary:
Staff has access to daily reports and ad-hoc queries. We have been holding regular discussions about moderation abuse. We will continue to do so. Cases of perceived abuse are discussed and no action is taken unless there is unassailable evidence about the facts and substantial agreement about the consequences (thus avoiding unilateral action).

For future reference, here are the moderator guidelines at the time of this being written. They are undergoing review right now and will be revised to include the preceding.

This document attempts to explain the moderation system that lies underneath this implementation of Slashcode's vast comment section. It was originally written for Slashcode years ago, so the specifics of this moderation system are outlined here. Keep in mind that as this project grows, some aspects can change to better serve the community and improve the overall experience.

Contents

  1. Purpose
  2. Goals
  3. Who
  4. How
  5. Mod Bombs
  6. Sock Bombs
  7. Spam Mod
  8. Moderation Issues
  9. FAQ

Purpose

As you might have noticed, a site like this can get a lot of comments. Some are downright terrible; others are truly gems, and hundreds of comments can be hard to sift through.

The moderation system is designed to sort the gems and the crap from the steady stream of information that flows through the pipe. And wherever possible, it tries to make the readers of the site take on the responsibility.

The goal is that each reader will be able to read the the threshold they prefer. Select "-1" and you'll see trolls and possible wrongly-modded comments, try "5" and you'll see only the top-rated comments.

Goals

  1. Promote Quality, Discourage Crap.
  2. Make SoylentNews as readable as possible for as many people as possible.
  3. Do not require a huge amount of time from any single moderator.
  4. Do not allow any single moderator a 'reign of terror' -- no 'mod bombs'.

Who

We've set up a few simple rules for determining who is eligible to moderate.

  1. Logged In User If the system can't keep track, it won't work, so you gotta log in. Sorry if you're paranoid, but this system demands a certain level of accountability.
  2. Positive Contributors Slashcode tracks your "Karma" (see the FAQ). If you have non-negative Karma, this means you have posted more good comments than bad, and are eligible to moderate. This weeds out spam accounts.
  3. No Sockpuppet Accounts Accounts newer than 1 month are not eligible to moderate. This should keep sockpuppet accounts from immediately being a problem.

So the end result is a pool of eligible users that represent (hopefully) average, positive SoylentNews contributors.

How

Each day every eligible moderator is given 5 10 mod points to play with. Each comment they moderate deducts a point. When they run out of points, they are done moderating until 00:10 UTC when mod points are regenerated.

Moderation takes place by clicking the drop down list that appears next to comments, and selecting one of the adjectives like 'Flamebait' or 'Informative'. In general, bad words will reduce a comment's score by a single point (a 'down mod'), good words increase a comment's score by a single point (an 'up mod'). All comments are scored on an absolute scale from -1 to 5. Logged in users start at 1 (although this can vary from -1 to 2 based on their overall contribution to discussions) and anonymous users start at 0.

Moderators can participate in the same discussion as both a moderator and a poster. You are only prevented from modding your own posts.

Concentrate more on promoting than on demoting. The real goal here is to find the juicy good stuff and let others read it. Do not promote personal agendas. Do not let your opinions factor in. Try to be impartial about this. Simply disagreeing with a comment is not a valid reason to 'down mod' it. Likewise, agreeing with a comment is not a valid reason to 'up mod' it. The goal here is to share ideas. To sift through the haystack and find golden, shiny needles. And to keep the children who like to spam in check.

Mod Bombs

A 'mod bomb' is simply when a user, 'A', uses all 5 or more of their moderation points to 'down mod' comments posted by a single user, 'B'. Would you want someone who has a vendetta to use all a bunch of their mod points on your comments? It works both ways -- don't use all a bunch of your mod points on a single user. When this is detected, the account performing the moderation ('A') is given a 30-day 'time out' on moderating all moderations making up the mod bomb are reversed and the mod points are not returned. We would like to make the code automatically prevent a mod bomb from occurring, but this is not yet in place. The focus is on the quality of the comments on the site, not on who posts them. Remember that there are other users on the site who have mod points. If you have used all that are permitted, do not fret as someone else will likely come along later.

Sock Bombs

Much like a 'mod bomb', a 'sock bomb' is when a user, 'A', use 4 or more of their moderation points to 'up mod' comments posted by a single user, 'B'. (The name is taken from the idea of a "sockpuppet" account.) Again, our intention is to update the code to automatically prevent this from happening. We realize that this can happen unintentionally when, say, a subject-matter expert provides supporting information in comments to a story. Excess 'up mods' beyond 4 per day are subject to being reversed. A repeated pattern of user 'A' upmodding user 'B' may be subject to further action. In short, please do not try to 'game' the system.

Spam Mod

The spam moderation (spam mod) is to be used only on comments that genuinely qualify as spam. Spam is unsolicited advertisement, undesired and offtopic filth, or possibly illegal in general. Spam can come in many forms, but it differs from a troll comment in that it will have absolutely no substance, is completely undesired, is detrimental to the site, or worse.

The spam mod is special in that is removes 10 Karma points from the user that posted the comment. This mod is meant to combat spam and not to be used to punish commenters (when in doubt, don't use this mod). Our goal is to put a spammer in Karma Hell and for them to not be able to get out of it easily. As we do not want this used against non-spamers, we monitor all spam mods to make sure moderators are not abusing the spam mod. If we find a moderator that unfairly applied the spam mod, we remove the mod giving the poster back the Karma points, and the modder is banned from modding for one month. Further bans to the same modder add increasing amounts of ban time. If you inadvertently applied a spam mod, mail the admin and we will remove the spam mod without banning you. Even though we have updated the interface to physically separate the spam mod from the other mods, unintentional modding may still be an unfortunate occurrence.

Examples

If you are unsure of whether a comment is spam or not, don't use the spam mod. Here are some examples of spam:

  • Proper spam. Anything whose primary purpose is advertisement (unless somehow relevant to the discussion/article).
  • HOSTS/GNAA/etc... type posts. Recurring, useless annoyances we're all familiar with.
  • Posts so offtopic and lacking value to even be a troll that they can't be called anything else. See here, here or here for example.
  • Repeating the same thing over and over. This includes blockquoting entire comments without adding anything substantial to them.

Moderation Issues

If you see moderation abuse (mod bombing or spam mod), please mail the admin any comments (the cid link) showing the abuse. Alternatively, mention it on the main IRC channel. We will investigate and make amends if necessary. This also applies for users who display an atypical pattern of up or down mods against another user. Moderation abuse may result in the loss of ability to moderate for a time, or in some cases, permanently. (If you find almost everything another user posts objectionable, then moderation is not the solution - simply foe them, and set your preferences for foes to a suitably low negative value.

FAQ I just got moderator access, what do I do?

The fact that you are reading this document proves that you are already on the right track.

Why can't I moderate any more?

  • Do you still have any moderator points left?
  • You can't moderate your own posts.

What is a Good Comment? A Bad Comment?

  • Good Comments are insightful. You read them and are better off having read them. They add new information to a discussion. They are clear, hopefully well written, or maybe amusing. These are the gems we're looking for, and they deserve to be promoted. (Score: 2-5)
  • Average Comments might be slightly offtopic, but still might be worth reading. They might be redundant. They might be a 'Me Too' comment. They might say something painfully obvious. They don't detract from the discussion, but they don't necessarily significantly add to it. They are the comments that require the most attention from the moderators, and they also represent the bulk of the comments. (Score: 0-1)
  • Bad Comments are flamebait, incorrect, or have nothing to do with the article. Other examples: Ad Hominem, ridicule for others with different opinion (without backing it up with anything more tangible than strong words), repeats of something said 15 times already (read previous comments before you post), use of unnecessary foul language, some are hard to read or just don't make any sense. Basically they detract from the article they are attached to. (Score: -1)

What is Karma?

Karma is the sum of all moderation activity done to a user. Karma is used to determine eligibility for moderator status and can affect your comments starting score. Every new user starts with a Karma of 0, and as long as your Karma isn't negative you are eligible to become a moderator.

Why Don't I get my points back after I post in a discussion I moderated?

We've decided to allow a moderator to moderate in a discussion, and then comment afterward without undoing their moderation.

How can I improve my Karma?

10 tips for improving your Karma:

Post intelligently:
Interesting, insightful, thought provoking comments are rated higher on a fairly consistent basis.
Post calmly:
Nobody likes a flame war. In fact, more times than not the flamer gets burned much more than their target. "Flamebait" is hit quickly and consistently with "-1" by moderators. As the bumper sticker says... "Don't be a dick."
If you can't be deep, be funny:
If you don't have something to contribute to the discussion, some humor is welcome. Humor is lacking in our lives and will continue to be promoted. Remember though, what rips your sides out may be completely inane to somebody else.
Post early:
If an article has over a certain number of posts on it already, yours is less likely to be moderated. This is less likely both statistically (there are more to choose from) and due to positioning (as a moderator I have to actually find your post way at the end of a long list.)
Post often:
If you only post once a month you can expect your karma to remain low. Also, lively discussion in an open forum is what makes SoylentNews really "Rock the Casbah."
Stay on topic:
Off topic posts are slapped quickly and consistently with "-1" by moderators.
Be original:
Avoid being redundant and just repeating what has already been said. (Did I really just say that?) Yes, being moderated as "redundant" is worth "-1" to your post and your karma. Especially to be avoided are the "what he said" and "me too" posts.
Read it before you post:
Does it say what you really want it to say? Check your own spelling and grammar. Occasionally, a perfectly beneficial post is passed over by moderators because it is completely irrelevant to content feature. This is also a good approach to checking yourself for what you're really saying. Can't tell you the number of times I've stopped myself from saying the opposite of what I meant by checking my own s&g.
Log in as a registered user:
I know, this sounds obvious but, "Anonymous Coward" does not have a karma rating. You can't reap the perceived benefits of your own accidental brilliance if you post anonymously. Have pride in your work and take credit for it.
Read SoylentNews regularly:
You can't possibly contribute to the discussion if you're not in the room. Come to the party and play.

Original Submission

 
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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @03:54PM (75 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @03:54PM (#1168862)

    I suspect I'll get slammed for this, but I want to present a somewhat contrary viewpoint.

    There are two ways to improve the signal to noise ratio. Instead of considering both options, the admins only seem to focus on reducing the noise. Slashdot had a viable, if flawed, approach of giving out fewer mod points, then employing community-based metamoderation to address problems. For awhile, SN has claimed that there really aren't problems with moderation, then post something like this acknowledging there are serious problems. You had a solution, chose not to fix and implement it, pretend there aren't problems, and now you have a mess to clean up.

    The alternative path forward is to increase the signal and grow your community. Reduce the amount of mod points given to users, but attract enough users so there are enough moderators to promote good comments and penalize garbage. Much of the discussion takes place in journals, where people just shout at each other about politics. You don't have a lot of discussion about science and technology, with those articles often getting few comments. SN has become a site for people to argue about politics in the journals while ignoring the stories.

    It seems the response is to put more effort into going after the noise, while the amount of stories that get posted declines. You've had offers to help with editing, but turned them away. I know, because I offered, and requested no privileges. I just offered to help with editing and was turned away.

    Even with respect to moderation, the guidelines are murky. For example, Azuma Hazuki says that she got permission to spam mod comments on the basis of racism [soylentnews.org], but that's not reflected in the moderation guidelines. That was a month ago, so there's been ample time to at least make the guidelines clear.

    Yes, the moderation sucks right now. Yes, sock puppets are rampant. I've called this out, specifically when a low quality post got four insightful mods within 30 minutes of being posted. But this is a self-inflicted problem, by giving everyone 10 mod points per day, then denying a problem exists. When I've called out this problem in the past, staff rudely accused me (with zero evidence, just assuming) of carrying out the moderation abuse. Even when I pointed out that the staff member's statements were incorrect and provided evidence, the staff member couldn't even be bothered to admit a mistake or apologize. Instead of solving the problem, my experience has been that the staff blames people for saying there's a problem, even when those people offer their assistance.

    A better question might be, why should I continue giving my money to SN through subscriptions when the goal clearly isn't to increase the signal? Why should I contribute when stories keep getting cut back while it seems effort is being poured into the moderation system? I'm no longer interested in helping because I've had such bad experiences with staff, mostly one staff member. But I might subscribe again if that money is supporting more content instead of building more tools to track moderation when you already had viable solutions.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:12PM (20 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:12PM (#1168870)

      Azuma Hazuki says that she got permission to spam mod comments on the basis of racism [soylentnews.org], but that's not reflected in the moderation guidelines. That was a month ago, so there's been ample time to at least make the guidelines clear.

      Spam is unsolicited advertisement, undesired and offtopic filth, or possibly illegal in general. Spam can come in many forms, but it differs from a troll comment in that it will have absolutely no substance, is completely undesired, is detrimental to the site, or worse.

      Would you not agree that the above definition about covers that? If not, maybe you'd be considered part of the problem.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:26PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:26PM (#1168885)

        "Racism": the unprovable, all-pervading invisible substance that influences everything and explains the world around us. It can't be measured or proven scientifically. You just have to take it on faith. Everything is justified by just saying the magic word "racism", and none can oppose you.

        One from way back in the day:

        "The laws in this city are clearly racist. All laws are racist. The law of gravity is racist."
        - M. Barry, Mayor of Washington, DC

        • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:40PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:40PM (#1168890)

          "Racism": the unprovable, all-pervading invisible substance that influences everything and explains the world around us. It can't be measured or proven scientifically. You just have to take it on faith.

          Indeed, and this is just the problem with what has become of the word "racism". Its meaning has been so stretched and twisted by some that they believe that anyone saying anything other than their own personal viewpoint is spouting 'racism'. This is doubly so if the one making the accusation of "this is racist" is themselves a member of a group which has historically been the target of racism in the past. Some number of them have so twisted the meaning that they interpret any counter to their statements as a "racist attack on themselves because they are a member of 'group X'".

          So simply saying "spam mod racist comments" leaves a huge loophole for the small group that miss-applies the term 'racism' to anything they personally disagree with. And, sadly, the subset who do miss-apply the meaning of 'racism' are also often the most vocal, so the impression given is that "all members of group X think this way" -- when reality is it is just the subset of very vocal mouthpieces making the whole group look bad.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @05:24PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @05:24PM (#1168915)

          "Racism": the unprovable, all-pervading invisible substance that influences everything and explains the world around us. It can't be measured or proven scientifically. You just have to take it on faith. Everything is justified by just saying the magic word "racism", and none can oppose you.

          One from way back in the day:

          "The laws in this city are clearly racist. All laws are racist. The law of gravity is racist."
          - M. Barry, Mayor of Washington, DC

          If you look at the comment that AH and Bytram were discussing, it's not sitting on some hypothetical fence as to whether it's racist or not. It's blatant, has no place on this site, and the poster deserves any ban that comes from it as a consequence. The staff has the ability to see comments that are modded as spam and can reverse said moderation if they feel it's unjustified.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:26PM (13 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:26PM (#1168886)

        It's ambiguous in part because racist comments from users like Ethanol-fueled were spam modded and the admins reversed those moderations. The justification at the time, I believe, was that the mods were reversed for the purpose of protecting satire. If you've been paying attention, you'd notice that many of the racist comments are constructed so they technically could be considered on-topic. For example, see this blatantly antisemitic comment [soylentnews.org] that has been spam modded. The comments are written so they technically may not run afoul of what's written in the moderation guidelines (not clearly off-topic), but are obviously posted just for the sake of posting racism. Perhaps the comments are sufficiently repetitive to satisfy the official criteria for the spam mod, because similar comments have been posted in quite a few articles.

        If not, maybe you'd be considered part of the problem.

        In my comment, I noted that a frequent response to criticism has been to attack the intentions of the person pointing out the problems.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:41PM (12 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:41PM (#1168891)

          It's ambiguous in part because racist comments from users like Ethanol-fueled were spam modded and the admins reversed those moderations.

          How long ago? As I understand the current rules, such moderations wouldn't be reversed today.

          I'm not sure there's much point in expanding the detail of the written rules because when judging natural language there's always going to be a degree of interpretation and opinion involved. If an attempt was made to define the rules exhaustively, it would just give the trolls a play book to game the system. I wouldn't personally object to the definition of Spam posts being altered to list racism as another example, though.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:30PM (11 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:30PM (#1168955)

            I've suggested this in a number of other places. There's obvious garbage, including but not limited to the overt racism. Trolls know that there aren't that many people moderating. If they post enough garbage, then use sock puppets to mod up their garbage, there aren't enough active users to correct the mess. Making it the community's responsibility to take out the trash is what allows this problem to exist. It's not hard for trolls to overwhelm the system with their garbage, which is exactly what they're doing. It's easy for them to create more accounts and continue when their sock puppets get banned from moderating. The admins could step in and prevent trolls from overwhelming the system, but refuse to do so.

            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday August 20 2021, @10:12PM (10 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @10:12PM (#1169060) Journal

              The admins could step in and prevent trolls from overwhelming the system, but refuse to do so.

              How? By banning ACs? How would you have posted your comment if we didn't allow ACs? We don't know what a comment is going to say before it gets printed on the screen - at exactly the same time you see it. At what stage do you suggest we stop it?

              Or perhaps you mean ban logged in users who get moderated as trolls, but we would have to allow the ACs has they haven't got an account to ban....?

              And which moderation has the highest priority, The initial Troll mod or any of the subsequent up mods? How long do we wait until we think all the relevant moderations have been made?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @11:49PM (9 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @11:49PM (#1169114)

                What I'm suggesting is:

                1) Editors use unlimited mod points on the obvious garbage (e.g., racist rants, other garbage like that), freeing up users to focus on modding up quality posts.

                2) The amount of mod points given out to users is decreased and assigned randomly. Users with negative karma would no longer get mod points. The system would favor those who have made positive contributions.

                3) Post more stories and try your best to attract more knowledgeable people to the site to share their thoughts in the comments. Right now, the comments are either sparse or really bad.

                I don't want you to ban ACs. In my opinion, that's a step in the wrong direction, even if a lot of spammers love to abuse AC posting.

                As noted elsewhere in the thread, when I compare this to Slashdot, I'm talking about classic Slashdot around 2000. I have fond memories of my time on Slashdot back then. Current Slashdot doesn't feel anything like what I remember back then. I came to SN because it felt a lot like classic Slashdot, probably the closest thing to that online. What I'm describing is a lot like Slashdot from that era, because I thought it worked really well.

                I really enjoyed the Slashdot community back then. I interacted with a lot of people on journals, but it seemed like everyone was pretty friendly and got along. Sure, we didn't agree on politics, but things were generally quite civil. I remember talking football with people and picking NFL games each week. The comments frequently had experts posting, making it very informative for everyone else to read. Maybe my ideals are unrealistic, perhaps not in line with the direction you and other staff want to take the site. But that's what I hope for.

                I'm not anti-SN. In fact, I'm quite the opposite, hoping this place becomes great like old school Slashdot. What I've seen appears to be moving away from that, not towards that. As for my time, I'm just frustrated when the response tends to be that I should help. I offered to do exactly that, but TMB rudely refused. Despite that, I want SN to be a great site, which is why I'm still here when I could easily leave.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @02:01AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @02:01AM (#1169144)

                  This post basically echos what I think and my experiences. Double that for driving off actual experts and rejection from staff.

                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday August 21 2021, @05:39AM (7 children)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 21 2021, @05:39AM (#1169173) Journal

                  In the order that you suggested them:

                  1. Editors have the same number of mod points as everyone else. Your suggestion cannot be accomplished without a code change.
                  2. Significant code changes are impossible without a programmer on the team. TMB has gone. How good is your Perl?
                  3. I don't get paid here - nobody does. We are all volunteers. All the guys working behind the scenes as well as those names that you see on a daily basis. Please don't think you can tell us to work harder or for longer hours just to please you. More stories requires more editors. Code changes require programmers. I donate my time freely but only to the extent that I am able to do so. You want more stories? Come and work on the team.

                  This is not slashdot year 2000. This is our own site. The difference on how the community behaves is more to do with the community itself than it is to the colour scheme of the front page. Many people have changed, they are more polarized, they know that they do not risk personal harm by making outlandish comments and insulting those who do not agree with them. Even those who log in are, in fact, anonymous. If they were to behave the same way in real life their nose would be permanently bleeding from the response that they would get from other people, IMO.

                  Many people do not join the site but simply post as AC. You can sign in and still post as AC but that, apparently, is either too difficult or might be viewed as supporting the site. You are all welcome, but at some point the balance will tip and there will be insufficient willingness in the community to help run the site. At which time you will find that the site will no longer exist. Good luck in finding an alternative when that happens.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @07:42AM (2 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @07:42AM (#1169214)

                    Many people do not join the site but simply post as AC. You can sign in and still post as AC but that, apparently, is either too difficult or might be viewed as supporting the site. You are all welcome, but at some point the balance will tip and there will be insufficient willingness in the community to help run the site. At which time you will find that the site will no longer exist. Good luck in finding an alternative when that happens.
                    --

                    There it is, ex-pat Brit former military, doing the GBCW (is that still a thing? ="Good Bye Cruel World!"). And, perhaps he is correct. I have done as much as I was able to support the idea of BuckFeta, but have gotten nothing but downmods from the alt-right, and mod-bans from the admins. Check out the latest (6 months or so) poll. Something needs to change. We are no longer Web 2.0.

                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday August 21 2021, @11:23AM

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 21 2021, @11:23AM (#1169263) Journal

                      check out what, AC? The fact that people haven't got the time to help - but you expect us to be able to do wonders in our free time?

                      The fact that people don't have the skills to contribute - but you expect us to be sysops, devops, admins and editors simultaneously?

                      That some people don't have the interest - yet you still expect us to do everything possible to keep the site going, and more.

                      We know about the problems that members of our community face - we are part of this community and have them too. We have several staff who need medical treatment yet still manage to find the time to contribute when they can. We all have lives away from this site with everything that lives bring - births, deaths, illness, unemployment, trying to feed one's family, taxes, stress, working long hours. Or do you think that we live in a special world where unicorns prance around while we laze about on large fluffy cushions being waited upon by scantily clad slaves whose only purpose is to take care of our every whim? Stop complaining about how hard your lot is and keep contributing. But those abusing the community by using sock-puppets, or moderation abuse, or throwing expletives or racist comments around are likely to drive many of our community away rather than strengthen it. Without the community and its contribution there is no site.

                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday August 21 2021, @11:34AM

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 21 2021, @11:34AM (#1169265) Journal

                      I have done as much as I was able to support the idea of BuckFeta, but have gotten nothing but downmods from the alt-right, and mod-bans from the admins

                      How do you suppose we placed a mod ban on an Anonymous Coward - for that is who this comment purports to be from?

                      You haven't even told us who you are to make your claim of how you have been mistreated, and so undeservedly too. When did you discover that you had a mod ban imposed upon you? Under which username? I might be able to guess, but for everyone else it would be nice so that they can follow what is happening.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @03:42PM (3 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @03:42PM (#1169297)

                    Twice, I offered to volunteer my time to help the site.

                    The first time, I offered to try to improve the moderation code, perhaps to clean up or re-implement metamoderation, and to share the code. I offered to do it using my own time and even my own resources. I was politely turned down by martyb.

                    The second time, I offered to edit stories. I volunteered to clean up submissions to the queue so that they would be in a form that could be posted. I offered to even just resubmit them so that you wouldn't have to trust me with editor access, but the stories could be easily posted by staff. TMB rejected that offer.

                    Why should I help SN now when you've twice turned away my help previously? In fact, the second time I offered, I was greeted with a rather rude response. I recognize that TMB is one person, but it's left me with a very bad impression. Why should I help now and volunteer my time when you (not you personally, but the site) refused my help before?

                    I recognize you probably had no way of knowing I'd twice volunteered and was refused. Nonetheless, I don't take kindly to you questioning why I'm not helping when my help was rejected. Despite this, I'd still like to see SN succeed and I find the abuses and awful comments truly abhorrent. But I don't really feel a desire to help in that manner when I've been turned away twice before.

                    Maybe you're right that the community has changed and there's too much abuse for Slashdot's model from 2000 to work here. I don't know if I agree, but I can respect that position. You're right that everything is very polarized and that there are some very nasty and truly awful comments. Perhaps the problem is that more reasonable members of the community aren't interested because they're driven away by the vitriol.

                    One more thing... I do appreciate your response. My issue isn't with you personally, but issues with other members of the site in the past. Be well.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @05:06PM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @05:06PM (#1169330)

                      Had a very similar experience. I have domain-specific knowledge that would have substantially benefited the team from the early days. I made some proposals on how I might help, and they were sidelined, ignored or refused.

                      Idea shelved.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @02:54AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @02:54AM (#1169491)

                        Perhaps it would be helpful to link to this poll [soylentnews.org] and its responses. Over 20% of the respondents that have the time being "run off" and almost 37% don't have the tech skills. Without the disinterested, unavailable, and those already on the staff, almost 28% were run off and just over half don't have the skills. At that rate, no one is going to help.

                        And FWIW, 28% being chased away is horrendous. No wonder there are so many people echoing that sentiment here.

                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday August 21 2021, @05:33PM

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 21 2021, @05:33PM (#1169335) Journal

                      There is no reason that you should volunteer a third time, none at all. It seems that you were treated badly by TMB, and I can only apologise on the behalf of the team for that. I don't know exactly what you discussed, and I suspect it was just TMB's confrontational persona which we all experienced from time to time but we realised there was no animosity behind it and we stopped worrying. You will have undoubtedly read in numerous threads that others have experienced it too. TMB could be blunt and would always stand his ground in any discussion - it just surprised many people.

                      I can, however, see potential pitfalls with your suggestion - which you would not know about because you haven't seen how the system here 'hangs' together. Rewriting subs without using our terribly archaic editing system would result in you becoming the submitter and therefore getting the credit and karma for each submission. I suspect the community wouldn't like that. Secondly, the system does quite a bit of essential house-keeping (linking sub id to story id to editor id etc etc, keeping records of who is editing what and when so that we do not overwrite each others changes unintentionally, etc) We have tried various workarounds but we haven't found one that does not include being logged on to the system and using what we have. I can assure you that it frustrates us as much as anyone, but that is where we are. If you want to join the editor team, and I understand fully that you may now not want to do so, then we can train you up. Of course, you work from home but you are pretty much locked into the software that we have to use each day.

                      As for writing code using your own resources - well that would require you to have a copy of the database which contains much personal and sensitive data. That doesn't go anywhere outside of our servers and backups. I do not have access to it - nor should I have. I have access to SQL queries and that gets me the information that I need to do my job(s).

                      Of course, if resources were unlimited we each know how it could be improved to make the entire task easier, less time consuming and more pleasant to just do. We are not there, and I do not see that being achieved within the next few years unless there are significant changes. particularly with regards to manning DevOps - which is currently completely unmanned.

                      So, for better or for worse, editing needs to be done on our system - logged in from home of course - but under the security and access rules that are rigidly enforced within the team and the sections within it. As for other roles then you need to speak to someone who is currently working in them to find out what they need (every team needs more people but they each have the problem of the training overhead which takes an experienced operator away from his primary role). Feel free to contact a team directly if you still wish to help us out - but I can understand your current reluctance. Alternatively, contact Martyb who has fingers in most pies and regular contact with almost everybody on the team.

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Saturday August 21 2021, @06:39AM (2 children)

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Saturday August 21 2021, @06:39AM (#1169194) Homepage
        > Azuma Hazuki says that she got permission to spam mod comments on the basis of racism

        Not all the admins agreed with that policy.

        Within half a second of sentence like yours, which aren't actually correct, being bandied about, a well-known idiot was abusing it.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @10:14AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @10:14AM (#1169256)

          Not all the admins agreed with that policy.

          I did. And the majority of Soylentils did. Prove me wrong, you autocratic Brit!

          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday August 22 2021, @05:54AM

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 22 2021, @05:54AM (#1169528) Journal

            And the majority of Soylentils did.

            I must have missed that vote, which surprises me as the last vote we had (2016, I think) as a community took several weeks to organise, run and present the result.

            Perhaps then, there was no vote. Which would imply that you do not know how many Soylentils actually agreed with that policy, just the ones that bothered to comment. You have reached your biased conclusion on a very limited number of comments (on here or on IRC?) and are now asserting that you know how the community would have voted if there had actually been a vote (and based on your desired outcome).

            To quote your own comment: Prove me wrong

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Tork on Friday August 20 2021, @04:18PM (38 children)

      by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @04:18PM (#1168880)

      Slashdot had a viable, if flawed, approach of giving out fewer mod points, then employing community-based metamoderation to address problems.

      1. Metamoderation did not work, that's why they abandoned it.

      2. The noise ratio was NOT low at Slashdot, they purposefully post stories that keep their ad counters spinning. They've cultivated nerd-outrage for profit. Handing out extra mod points meant IP-bans galore on that site.

      Oh and I've seen you guys poke and prod Azuma to try to get a reaction, I think you're just upset that SN's current moderation system is tamping you down on that.

      --
      🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:33PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:33PM (#1168887)

        I think you're just upset that SN's current moderation system is tamping you down on that.

        Thank you for supporting my point that the response to criticism as, all too frequently, to attack the critic rather than address substantive concerns. Good work.

        I have not seen evidence that metamoderation doesn't work. It worked at Slashdot and there's nothing that should inherently make it fail here. The explanation has been that the admins didn't want to fix that part of the code. But they have time to develop new tools.

        Slashdot actually had really good stories back 15-20 years ago, stuff that led to interesting and worthwhile discussions. Yes, they created tools to curtail the abuse. The editors took it upon themselves to step in and mod garbage comments, then gave the community a few mod points (not 10 per day) to mod up quality comments. It worked pretty well. At least the signal was good enough and there were enough excellent comments to justify reading the site.

        Give out a smaller number of mod points at random. Have editors clean up the obvious garbage like APK crapfloods. Then focus on posting good content and creating more signal. There aren't a lot of comments in most of the stories about science and technology. Getting rid of noise won't create a signal if there wasn't a signal to begin with.

        • (Score: 1, Redundant) by Tork on Friday August 20 2021, @04:45PM (4 children)

          by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @04:45PM (#1168893)

          Thank you for supporting my point that the response to criticism as, all too frequently, to attack the critic rather than address substantive concerns. Good work.

          Irony. Heh.

          I have not seen evidence that metamoderation doesn't work. It worked at Slashdot and there's nothing that should inherently make it fail here.

          It most certainly did not. They took metamod away and then they took AC posting away. Sure you wanna stay on this course? Heh.

          --
          🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:58PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:58PM (#1169055)

            I think the confusion here is you are talking about modern slashdotrun by advertisers in Britain while th anon GP is talking about classic skashdot from 2000 to 2007

            • (Score: 2) by Unixnut on Friday August 20 2021, @10:10PM (1 child)

              by Unixnut (5779) on Friday August 20 2021, @10:10PM (#1169059)

              > I think the confusion here is you are talking about modern slashdotrun by advertisers in Britain while th anon GP is talking about classic skashdot from 2000 to 2007

              It does sound like it. I remember the classic Slashdot well, and it was the best place at the time for discussions. I never knew that they removed AC posts and meta-mod, which probably dates my usage of the green site (although for kicks, I tried logging in a couple of years ago, my old account is still active!).

              For what my opinion is worth, I found the meta-moderation and limited (randomly allocated) mod points worked well. It gave the community power to moderate the discussions, but (a) never gave them enough power as individuals to actually suppress other posters in a thread, and (b) those that did do so would be caught out by meta-moderation, and would get fewer chances to moderate in future.

              It was a two stage filter which over time worked nicely. It didn't deal with sockpuppet accounts , but as not every account got mod points every day, even sockpuppet accounts had limited impact (unlike here, where each sockpuppet account you create is automatically an extra 10 mod points a day).
              Saying that, at least when it comes to monitoring for sock puppet accounts, it sounds like Soylent may have a potential solution, so I reserve judgement until I see how that bit works.

              • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @10:22PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @10:22PM (#1169066)

                which probably dates my usage of the green site (although for kicks, I tried logging in a couple of years ago, my old account is still active!).

                You poor bastard!!!!

            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Tork on Friday August 20 2021, @10:46PM

              by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @10:46PM (#1169081)
              I was around Slashdot starting in the late 90's, I was there while it rose and fell. They were doing the sensationalistic crap before they were acquired, that's why you hear terms like "microsoft fanboys" bandied about. Those don't really exist in any meaningful group on that site, instead that's a label for people who did read the article and pointed out that Slashdot's headline/summary was wrong. "B-b-but Microsoft is always wrong and they ONLY the worst things ever!"

              There was never a period on that site where moderation abuse wasn't a huge problem. Instead you basically had to agree with whatever the GroupThink said or you had to be really really really really diplomatic about it or you'd get modded to -1. I actually found out the hard way that enough downmods in a short period of time could get you not just a short ban but also several months of 'probation' where you're limited to a few posts a day. My crime? I tried Linux for the first time and when I detailed some of the trouble I ran into with it I was accused of lying, told I shouldn't even have a job, and I was pestered for several days about it. Oh and if you want to have good karma on that site (especially during the period of 1999-2007) what you did was repeat someone else's successful point. That's what lead to the stupid memes on that site like "hot grits" or "imagine a beowulf cluster of these!" My personal favorite was "This is not news!", where basically anything that had "still ten years away!" in the summary was over-simplified with the punch-line "that's not news!" Example: "new battery technology means double capacity!" "Just get more batteries, THIS IS NOT NEWS!!" Shit like that isn't typically regarded as noise but it very much is.

              This is what I had in mind when I made my original post and I stand by it. I do think SN's approach is significantly better than Slashdot's, but I also think the small size of SN's userbase is a likely explanation for why things are tolerable right now. As for Slashdot's signal-to-noise ratio: Fuck no, it's terrible. I'll give the green site credit for keeping things on-topic but the habit people developed of regurgitating shit they saw someone else get modded up for is both noisy and harmful to the community.

              I haven't seen the 'Group Think' effect here, kudos to the community AND the staff for that. The only time I've noticed SN catering their posts to their audience was when they consolidated a big political topic into one story. Slashdot, on the other hand, is on story number twelve (by my count) on Apple's child-porn scanner.
              --
              🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:36PM (31 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @04:36PM (#1168889)

        My personal solution is to consider comments "over" once Azuma finally catches wind of a story and shows up in the comments. It's the same strategy as not staying at a bar once the only people left there are belligerent drunks. Time to go home.

        • (Score: 2, Troll) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday August 20 2021, @05:28PM (28 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday August 20 2021, @05:28PM (#1168920) Journal

          So you mean I can stop you from smearing your 4chan-feces all over any specific SN thread just by posting in it, anywhere, at any time? AWESOME! Doorknob, ass, etc. See ya!

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @08:14PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @08:14PM (#1169003)

            You're so unaware. What you posted sounds just like the incoherent ramblings of a drunk.

            • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:16PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:16PM (#1169029)

              Get fucked racist shit head. With utmost respect of course!

              • (Score: 1, Redundant) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 20 2021, @11:35PM (1 child)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @11:35PM (#1169112) Journal

                So, "incoherent drunk" is the newest race? Whoda thunk it. I'll bet a lot of them grew up thinking they were Scotsmen or Irish!

                • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @03:51AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @03:51AM (#1169165)

                  Nah, just something to annoy a triggered douche, and most of the people that get really upset at Azuma are the ones that post racist crap. Once we solve police profiling, or at least deal with some of the racism and authoritarianism in our police, then I'll stop doing the same for a stupid internet argument.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:13PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:13PM (#1169026)

            So you mean I can stop you from smearing your 4chan-feces all over any specific SN thread just by posting in it, anywhere, at any time? AWESOME! Doorknob, ass, etc. See ya!

            Case in point....

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:38PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:38PM (#1169046)

              Shitposters shitpost to make user angry, points at angry user as problem, news at 11!

          • (Score: 2, Disagree) by FatPhil on Saturday August 21 2021, @06:46AM (6 children)

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Saturday August 21 2021, @06:46AM (#1169198) Homepage
            >> It's the same strategy as not staying at a bar once the only people left there are belligerent drunks. Time to go home.

            You're slacking, Azuma! The correct response to that is to point out that if the only people left in the bar that you're in are belligerent drunks, then by virtue of the fact that you're in that bar still, you're one of the belligerent drunks, and therefore you are part of the problem.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
            • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @06:54AM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @06:54AM (#1169201)

              No. You leave before that end state is reached. You leave at the first sign, which I take to be when Azuma shows up.

              • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Saturday August 21 2021, @08:13AM (2 children)

                by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Saturday August 21 2021, @08:13AM (#1169222) Homepage
                The logic in my post was perfect. That you failed to understand it shows that yours is imperfect.
                --
                Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @10:31AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @10:31AM (#1169259)

                  Sorry if written English is hard for you to parse.

                  • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Saturday August 21 2021, @05:33PM

                    by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Saturday August 21 2021, @05:33PM (#1169336) Homepage
                    Uncertain if you're too stupid to write what you want, or if you're too stupid to understand what you previously wrote. Or too stupid to understand the flow of time. Quite probably all three.
                    --
                    Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 21 2021, @04:48PM (1 child)

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Saturday August 21 2021, @04:48PM (#1169321) Journal

              Except I'm a teetotaler, LOL. What now, ese?

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @07:32PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @07:32PM (#1169373)

                So am I, LOL!
                Metaphor, what is it?

          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday August 22 2021, @06:06AM (14 children)

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 22 2021, @06:06AM (#1169529) Journal

            Of all the ways you could have worded that retort, you had to use invective and foul language to try to make your point? And all it achieved was to shoot yourself in both feet multiple times. Why do you keep doing this to yourself?

            This is exactly what people are complaining about in your comments. When you are calm you can offer intelligent insights into areas in which you have professional expertise or specific knowledge. But when you are not (which increasingly seems more often nowadays) .... well, we get this sort of drivel. You are so like those you claim to oppose on this site - just looking from the extreme opposite ends of the same spectrum.

            • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday August 22 2021, @05:45PM (13 children)

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday August 22 2021, @05:45PM (#1169641) Journal

              Yeah? You can take your disingenuous tone-trolling and shove it so far up your namby-pamby Chamberlain-adjacent ass all four of your grandparents feel it in Hell. I don't negotiate with terrorists; why the fuck do you?

              Here's a giant fuckin' clue, old man! BEING NICE TO A SOCIOPATH DOESN'T MAKE THEM STOP BEING A SOCIOPATH! Do you think the US would have won World War II if they'd tried *reason* with the Nazis?

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @06:05PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @06:05PM (#1169647)

                Having been told that she is obnoxious, not persuasive, and putting people off her position, she doubles down with a stream of insults and ad hominem irrelevances.

                Azuma's been told by multiple people, including those on her political side, to muffle the rabid snarls down to, at least, junkyard dog surliness. This has happened over the years, but instead she seems to amp it up to wounded wolverine levels. Why? It obviously doesn't serve any purpose that comports with her stated positions.

                Either she's a long-running, trolling agent for the right wing, and knows exactly what she's doing and how to get what she wants, or she's incapable of seeing the effects of her invective, in which case she would benefit from serious, professional help. Increasingly, my bet is on the latter, because she's projecting this sort of HOA-Karen self-righteousness that most people would just recognise as terribly alienating.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:08PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:08PM (#1169704)

                  Oh me oh my y'all seem to be suffering such a case of the vapors why I do declaaarrrr.

              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday August 22 2021, @06:37PM (9 children)

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 22 2021, @06:37PM (#1169657) Journal

                namby-pamby Chamberlain-adjacent ass

                You've never heard me speak but you think you know my accent? Do you know what colour my skin is or where I was born? I could be any colour and descended from any race - you simply do not know.

                I don't negotiate with terrorists; why the fuck do you?

                Neither of us are negotiating with terrorists, unless you are implying that as I am talking to you, I am talking to a terrorist?

                Do you think the US would have won World War II if they'd tried *reason* with the Nazis?

                They didn't - the Allies won the war and the Axis lost. How many American dead were there? Now compare that with the Russian dead. America contributed greatly, even decisively, to the victory, both in human and materiel terms. Only 7 days ago today I was laying a wreath on the monument to the US dead (3) in a local town, along with a couple of Resistance fighters, veterans, many townsfolk and several French dignitaries, to celebrate the liberation of the town in 1944. I acknowledge them with gratitude. I've fought alongside US forces and made many good American friends. But the US still didn't win WW2 on its own.

                • Country/Military Deaths/Total Civilian and Military Deaths
                • Soviet Union 8,800,000-10,700,000 24,000,000
                • United Kingdom 383,600 450,700
                • France 217,600 567,600
                • United States 416,800 418,500

                Now all I am suggesting is that you make more sense and contribute far more when you argue calmly and coherently, and when you lose it you look stupid. And it is the latter than tends to get you downmodded by people that would otherwise probably do nothing. But now you've made your enemies and they can see how easy it is to trigger you, you will forever seen as an easy target for them,

                And when that happens you will be asking why the site admins don't stop the nasty people from picking on you. Just remember that you started it.

                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday August 22 2021, @06:42PM (1 child)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 22 2021, @06:42PM (#1169658) Journal

                  Oh, you said "Chamberlain-adjacent" - that doesn't even make sense.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @08:14PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @08:14PM (#1169673)

                    Blame the thesaurus.

                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday August 22 2021, @07:18PM (6 children)

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday August 22 2021, @07:18PM (#1169665) Journal

                  "Waaah, waaah, YOU STARTED IT!"

                  First of all, no, I didn't. This all began when I decided not to treat those undeserving of respect with respect. Second, what kind of fucking kindergarten bullshit nonsense reply is that?! Grow up! If you don't like me calling it like it is, then change "it," whatever "it" may be. In this case, "it" is your stupid, self-defeating insistence on civility at all costs, no matter what damage that actually allows to happen, because God almighty forbid we *hurt someone's feelings.* Even if that someone is abusing the system or spreading disinformation.

                  In summary: 1) shove that tone trolling even deeper, I don't think your paternal grandpa felt it, 2) grow a pair of the gonads of your choice and do your goddamn job as an admin, and 3) quit bitching about the arrangement of the deckchairs on the Titanic when we're taking on water.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:40PM (5 children)

                    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:40PM (#1169711) Journal

                    This all began when I decided not to treat those undeserving of respect with respect.

                    then change "it," whatever "it" may be.

                    That is precisely the point that I am making. You were one of the loudest demanding that we act to 'clean up the site'. There have been numerous comments and moderations against you for the way you are responding to even the slightest criticism. So for the last time I am asking you to stop. Such behaviour is unwanted by the community. You cannot expect us to enforce standards against moderation abuse yet at the same time let your outbursts of verbal abuse, which are as much of a problem and far more frequent than the Spam that you keep criticising, go unchecked.

                    I have no issue with you disagreeing with any criticism leveled at you. I do have a problem with the way you are treating members of this community.

                    You demanded action - we are acting.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:47PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:47PM (#1169713)

                      If nakedly hostile invective without substantive content could be a cause for a spam mod ... oooh.

                      I mean, could it be? Asking for a friend, here. Hypothetically. Not about anybody in particular.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @06:44PM (3 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @06:44PM (#1169961)

                      Allowing angry rants? Fine.

                      Angry rants with ethnic slurs? Nope.

                      See? Very easy. I don't see Azuma whining about downmods, at least not as seriously as the trolls that cry censorship. As usual only Azuma seems to be a target for tone criticism, hard not to see it as a pattern of misogyny, but her frequent angry rants muddy the data. Usually her harsh language includes an interesting or insightful point. Mod how you see fit, but don't throw a tantrum if more people find her point better than not.

                      • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday August 23 2021, @07:57PM (2 children)

                        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @07:57PM (#1169997) Journal

                        tone criticism

                        If I even knew what that was supposed to mean.... I am a Brit and we seem to use English slightly differently. I'm also probably a lot older than most people on the site and I haven't kept up with how younger people speak nowadays. By all means read the words that I write - but please don't apply a tone in your own mind that is not intended.

                        hard not to see it as a pattern of misogyny,

                        I would use exactly the same phrasing with either sex - that is the way I have been speaking for many, many decades. I have no problem with how she is moderated for content, but she could probably be more convincing, and have fewer detractors, if she spoke more calmly.

                        I am not 'throwing a tantrum'. It is one of the things that we have been criticised for not addressing for quite some time. Many in our community, including Azuma herself, have told us they want to see us take more action against those who spoil the discussions e.g. GNAA, Spam (both conventional and things like goatse). moderation abuse, sock puppets etc. And if you look in the stories where we have had examples of unnecessarily aggressive, threatening, insulting language or personal abuse there are usually comments and moderations made to indicate that many object to it. It isn't limited to just having opposing political views.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @09:04PM (1 child)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @09:04PM (#1170011)

                          Maybe I can help a bit.

                          Tone criticism: what Azuma likes to call tone trolling. You can look it up, but in short the idea is that someone will troll by tut-tutting at someone else for the way that they express themselves, as opposed to the content of their message, thereby distracting from and deflecting from the main point. The irony is that Azuma herself loves to fling accusations of tone trolling at others regardless of sincerity, because god forbid her allies might think that she's doing the cause more harm than good. What she's steadfastly refused to do is actually express how sincere critics, as opposed to hypothetical trolls, should engage with her, which is one of the weirder examples of rhetorical hypocrisy in which she engages.

                          Anyway. There you are. Have fun telling the skunk why it's unpopular at the picnic without referring to olfactory factors.

                          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday August 24 2021, @01:21AM

                            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 24 2021, @01:21AM (#1170097) Journal
                            Thank you. As someone once said: Two nations divided by a common language.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @08:04PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @08:04PM (#1169672)

                That post sounds much better if you read it as Kevin Kline's character in A Fish Called Wanda (1988).

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:13PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:13PM (#1168945)

          Then maybe Azuma should write a script to claim fp in every story. That way you'd stay away and discussion quality might improve. Your goal is to cancel people like Azuma and ari because they disagree with you. That's why people like you have been running sock puppets. The problem is that the people running the site have looked the other way for far too long and made it far too easy for trolls like you to abuse the system.

          Anyone can create numerous accounts with throwaway email addresses, get a bit of karma, and use them for abuse. It's trivial and I'm surprised it's taken so long for it to become this rampant. Give out fewer mod points, randomly giving them to users who have made recent positive contributions. Have the editors use unlimited mod points (and they could easily do this) to clean up the garbage. A lot of things would improve, but it's clear the people running the site aren't really willing to solve the problem.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @08:46PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @08:46PM (#1169678)

            A lot of things would improve, but it's clear the people running the site aren't really willing to solve the problem.

            The mods are in a pickle, they don't like the rancor or the lack of growth. But on the other hand, they have personal motivations, and they obviously agree with the left-leaning drift. So, the place is dropping farther out of the mainstream, which they don't want, but they're encouraging the slide to the left, which they do. They're losing visitors, but it's mostly right-wing "idiots" who are fed up. What to do, what to do?

    • (Score: 4, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Friday August 20 2021, @05:14PM (6 children)

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday August 20 2021, @05:14PM (#1168905) Journal

      Much of the discussion takes place in journals, where people just shout at each other about politics. You don't have a lot of discussion about science and technology, with those articles often getting few comments. SN has become a site for people to argue about politics in the journals while ignoring the stories.

      And that's a problem why? We keep ourselves off the main page and enjoy discussing politics more than flavor of the week tech stories. If you want to discuss those topics maybe post more of them and then, y'know, discuss them?

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:03PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:03PM (#1168942)

        If you read my entire comment, you'd see I'm not complaining that the journals exist or that users can post what they want. I'm criticizing the staff for not posting more quality content to the front page, then turning away offers to help them. Yes, the noise is a big problem. But the admins don't seem interested in adding to the signal.

        Fnord's responses are total cop outs, suggesting that instead of adding more content, they just delete journals, and that editors can't make unlimited moderations. I saw ari's journal get filled with APK spam. All it would take is to make a small modification to the code and editors would have unlimited mod points to clean up spam and racism. But they won't do it.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Friday August 20 2021, @07:51PM (4 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @07:51PM (#1169001) Journal

          I'm criticizing the staff for not posting more quality content to the front page

          As you are posting as AC, can you please direct me to some of your excellent submissions so that I can begin to edit them immediately. Thanks....

          You do realise that YOU are responsible for what goes out on the Main Page, don't you?

          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday August 20 2021, @10:25PM (3 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Friday August 20 2021, @10:25PM (#1169067) Journal

            If I wasn't banned from moderating, this comment by janrinok would get a Touche mod. In fact, it deserves multiple +1 Touche mods!

            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday August 20 2021, @10:37PM (2 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @10:37PM (#1169079) Journal
              That is rare praise indeed from one such as yourself. Thank you. I shall now retire for the night with a smile on my face.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @06:51PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @06:51PM (#1169967)

                So why is aristarchus still mod banned? Since he complains about it so frequently I think he has waived the right to privacy on the topic.

                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday August 23 2021, @07:24PM

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @07:24PM (#1169980) Journal
                  Why don't you ask him? He knows why, but whether he tells you is entirely up to him.
    • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Friday August 20 2021, @05:17PM (1 child)

      by Fnord666 (652) on Friday August 20 2021, @05:17PM (#1168908) Homepage

      The alternative path forward is to increase the signal and grow your community. Reduce the amount of mod points given to users, but attract enough users so there are enough moderators to promote good comments and penalize garbage. Much of the discussion takes place in journals, where people just shout at each other about politics. You don't have a lot of discussion about science and technology, with those articles often getting few comments. SN has become a site for people to argue about politics in the journals while ignoring the stories.

      Maybe the answer is to just remove/disable the journals and get back to the main point of posting and discussing STEM related stories.

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Friday August 20 2021, @05:25PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday August 20 2021, @05:25PM (#1168916) Journal

        Why shouldn't we be allowed to talk about whatever we want to talk about in our journals?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:04PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:04PM (#1168943)

      To some extent I don't mind because bad mods to good posts gives those with half a brain information on which side of a debate is intolerant to dissenting viewpoints. Those that either cheat or abuse the mod system may think that it does them good but it actually does them bad because people aren't dumb and they can tell when a system is being cheated or abused and they will associate the viewpoints perpetrated by cheaters or abusers with the cheating and abusing.

      It's why corrupt governments have to resort to absolute censorship of dissenting viewpoints, it's really the only way to control the narrative.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:17PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:17PM (#1169030)

        To some extent I don't mind because bad mods to good posts gives those with half a brain information on which side of a debate is intolerant to dissenting viewpoints. Those that either cheat or abuse the mod system may think that it does them good but it actually does them bad because people aren't dumb and they can tell when a system is being cheated or abused and they will associate the viewpoints perpetrated by cheaters or abusers with the cheating and abusing.

        So make moderations visible to the public so we can see who the asshats are? I like that idea.

        • (Score: 2) by Tork on Saturday August 21 2021, @08:32AM

          by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 21 2021, @08:32AM (#1169225)

          Bonus points if you can add per-user multipliers to the score. Don’t like my moderating style? Set me as ‘foe’ and my moderating opinion doesn’t matter.

          --
          🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday August 20 2021, @07:44PM

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @07:44PM (#1168996) Journal

      then employing community-based metamoderation to address problems

      https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=44440&page=1&cid=1168990#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @08:39PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @08:39PM (#1169018)

      Yes, the moderation sucks right now. Yes, sock puppets are rampant. I've called this out, specifically when a low quality post got four insightful mods within 30 minutes of being posted.

      No, we are not! That post had it coming!

      Yours,
      Sockpuppets of SoylentNews, United.

    • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 20 2021, @10:17PM

      by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 20 2021, @10:17PM (#1169063)

      The alternative path forward is to increase the signal and grow your community.

      Those two things aren't identical, at all. If you're adding in thousands of people spouting whatever crap they heard on network TV last night, that's not adding signal, that's adding noise.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
  • (Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 20 2021, @04:36PM (4 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @04:36PM (#1168888) Journal

    It's a little amusing that the moderation abuse has always been here - but it's suddenly getting a lot of attention because some very specific individuals complained about their redundant moderations.

    I am, arguably, the highest profile not-progressive member of SN. There's a seeming system to their moderation, and I've born the brunt of it for quite a long while. During certain hours, their sock puppets log in and mod me down, then during the following hours, other users who tend to agree with me log in and correct the excessive down mods. I have no way of knowing if any of those users who agree with me might be part of a sock puppet army. If so, I'm grateful that they are around to counter the other army. Of course, I would prefer to believe that all, or at least most, of my upmods come from individuals who either agree with me, or at least recognize the moderation abuse that I suffer.

    I've mentioned this a couple times on IRC, and the investigation seemed to find nothing. But the socks have always been here.

    Well, more attention to the problem has to be a good thing, right? Maybe we should thank the Redundant Mod Squad?

    Oh yeah - not naming names, but there are two users who routinely make posts, and are immediately modded +1 insightful. Seriously, sometimes, it's within 15 seconds. Just pick a page where they are active, and refresh the page a few times - or a lot of times. Post appears, and BANG! immediately, +1 insightful. The e-ink hasn't even dried on their post, and it's modded up.

    Whatever - I'm grateful for any added scrutiny. The site can only improve if some of the puppets are chased off, or at least made ineligible to moderate.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Friday August 20 2021, @05:19PM (1 child)

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday August 20 2021, @05:19PM (#1168910) Journal

      It's a little amusing that the moderation abuse has always been here - but it's suddenly getting a lot of attention because some very specific individuals complained about their redundant moderations.

      60 days straight of the exact same whiny journal and *CRICKETS*

      Azuma(?) mentions it once and it's OH MY VICTIMS!!!!!!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @05:23PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @05:23PM (#1168914)

      For what it's worth, I'm one who will "underrated" your mods when I think they've been unfairly modded, and I even up-mod your comments, no matter how much I think they're wrong. ;)

      I also never down-mod anything unless it is obvious spam or abusive comments, whether they are trolls or not. However, the blatantly offensive or copy pasta stuff is usually taken care of by the time I see it. What I don't care for are the personal attacks where some person/people follow you or Zumi or whomever and post abusively personal stuff anonymously. Those ones I will mod down.

      I agree with another AC comment above in that I always browse "-1" (always have, even on the green site back in the day) and I see everything whether it is up or down modded.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @05:27PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @05:27PM (#1168919)

      Some posts (of mine) in your journal quickly get a down-vote, then an up, then down... eventually it's 3-up and 3-down, for a net value of zero. But the down-mods get tallied, and the up-mods apparently don't subtract from them. After a few of those, I'm banned.

      I'm reminded of a quote from... nevermind.

  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday August 20 2021, @05:30PM (9 children)

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday August 20 2021, @05:30PM (#1168921) Journal

    n/t :)

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @05:33PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @05:33PM (#1168923)

      So it's official, you are the final arbiter of truth.

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by cmdrklarg on Friday August 20 2021, @05:53PM (1 child)

        by cmdrklarg (5048) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @05:53PM (#1168934)

        I'll take her words with a smaller grain of salt than I will with someone hiding as an AC.

        --
        The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:43PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @06:43PM (#1168959)

          Personally, I leave enough identifiable trails I often wish I hadn't. Some, like me, only post here as AC. Some are fairly unique; it would only take a few dots, and the worst of mine were fortunately lost in the great fire.

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday August 20 2021, @06:00PM (2 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday August 20 2021, @06:00PM (#1168941) Journal

        No, just someone who isn't shy about pointing it out. Your kind hates direct sunlight, that's all.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @10:05PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @10:05PM (#1169057)

          You're right, I'm a delicate little flower.

          Maybe a morning glory. You once called me "little" as a pejorative. I was curious about the point of it. I returned with a multi-Kardashian line, but felt bad about it (but it went away in the fire). Now I realize the point of it all... I get it...

          You have six-inches on me.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @05:50PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @05:50PM (#1169643)
            double entendre | də-bəl-än-ˈtänd(-rə)
      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday August 20 2021, @07:28PM (2 children)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday August 20 2021, @07:28PM (#1168988) Journal

        So it's official, you are the final arbiter of truth.

        Only if you are stupid enough to use mod point totals to determine the truth.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @10:28PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @10:28PM (#1169069)

          Sort of like elections.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:14PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:14PM (#1169706)

            Where in that case the "mod points" were the number of lawsuits brought my trumpco and not the number of successful ones? Seriously, fuck off you massive record breaking losers!

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @08:14PM (10 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @08:14PM (#1169002)

    question concerning modding comment not user, would it be possible to hide the commenters name unless specifically revealed, like a spoiler alert, and then disable moderation once the name has been revealed? I expect this could also be defeated, but it would take extra effort.

    Posting anonymously since I am a long time lurker without an account who seldom posts.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @08:27PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @08:27PM (#1169009)

      I think that would just be heading down the path of building a Rube Goldberg machine.
      The fundamental problem is that you have some very petty, closed minded people on SN (this is a universal problem, though) who get off on playing tinpot dictator. These types frequently serve on HOA boards in meatspace, for example, or on other little local boards. In cyberspace, they get their jollies downmodding others. It's no coincidence that these little dictators are usually very unhappy people. So, as long as you have that population here as SN modders, nothing you do in terms of tinkering with the moderation algorithm will solve the issue, especially when similarly unhappy people can band together to inflict misery on others. They are not live and let live people.

      So, what is the answer? Give up on moderation. Possibly reserve for a few trusted site admins only the right to downmod to oblivion only the most egregious junk such as crapflood posts.

      I am ready to abandon moderation because we have had 20 years to try to make it work on the internet, and it remains a failure. It's a people problem.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:42PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @09:42PM (#1169049)

        So you prefer flawed human volunteers to clean shit up? That just means we'll end up with lots of shitposts that edge up to the "barely tolerable" line of the volunteers. Engagement will probably go down as people wade through piles of shit looking for the good posts and then give up. It is a tough problem.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @10:33PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 20 2021, @10:33PM (#1169077)

          I am the same AC that you replied to: I already "wade through piles of shit" as you say. I browse all comments at -1, and it doesn't bother me. Really, it doesn't. I still think that downmoderation ought to only go on the repetitive, cut-and-paste, crapflood trolls (example: ASCII swastika post).

          As a practical matter, you know what drastically cuts down on the amount of shit posts and abusive moderation? Posting science and technology stories--especially the science stories. But those are few and far between. Take a step back and look at the root cause of this strife.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @02:44AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @02:44AM (#1169154)

        Since I've been on Gab, that site has been on an up vote mode basis and it works well. Nothing is hidden, but in the corner of your eye you can see if a comment was up voted.
        Don't know how they handle spam and dick pix.

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @07:51AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @07:51AM (#1169217)

          Yes! We need to model SN on Gab, so the racist motherfucking conservative traitors can post what they want to the roaring appreciation of crowds overthrowing American democracy! Or, we could just execute those people.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @03:39PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @03:39PM (#1169601)

            Or we could figure out which content-neutral aspects of their systems work, and follow those.

            Of course, if you're going to have positive-only votes, it makes sense to uncap scores so that everything that wiggles some modcult's woggles doesn't immediately get pegged at 5.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @10:39PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @10:39PM (#1169413)

      Better yet would be when you click on the comment #1169002, instead of just a tally, you could see a list of who did the nasty.

      And you could click on who-dun-it, and get a list of where else they did it.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @11:21PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 21 2021, @11:21PM (#1169431)

        Then we can harass the wrongthinkers. Brilliant!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @01:40AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @01:40AM (#1169477)

          That doesn't happen now? You hate 'em for what you imagine they did. At least this would cut down on the friendly fire.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @01:47AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @01:47AM (#1169479)

            And when you can see when someone is being an ass, maybe they will think about being such an... ass. At least you'd know the asses. I'd love to see the blow-by-blow in these 4-up and 4-down posts.

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