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from the See-dick-mod.-See-dick-sock-mod.-See-dick-get-banned.-Don't-be-a-dick dept.
Labor Day:
In observance of Labor Day (a federal holiday in the United States celebrated on the first Monday in September) I am hereby inviting the SoylentNews editorial staff to enjoy a three-day weekend — Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. Stories will be scheduled and released on a weekend-story-spacing schedule. The holiday marks the unofficial end of summer and it often marked by parades, sales, cookouts, and the like.
These volunteers give selflessly of their spare time to try and make sure we keep the stories coming. Please join me in thanking them for their generous sacrifice of spare time and experience to keep those stories coming!
Tor:
(short for The Onion Router) is in the process of rolling out an updated protocol. ThIs update is NOT compatible with prior versions. SoylentNews has had support from the early days of the site (thanks to NCommander, IIRC). As nobody on staff has experience in this area, our support will cease at any time - the TOR site is saying October. It was laudable at the time. Unfortunately, its more recent use seems to have been primarily by spammers. As such, we could lose access to Tor at anytime as our network "neighbors" either upgrade or find themselves no longer "adjacent" to back-level versions like ours is. You can still access this site using TOR with our normal URL.
Sock Mods
We have been methodically identifying and shutting down sockpuppet accounts. These are NOT allowed. Attempts to bypass the will of the community by controlling multiple accounts is forbidden. One user, one account. Do NOT use another account (or accounts) to upmod one-or-more accounts that you control. If you do not like getting downmods, take a look at the comments you post. Sure, occasionally, someone might mis-moderate a comment by accident (heck, *I* have done it!) In our experience, such errors are generally rare and are frequently followed at some point by others, offsetting moderations.
So: "Sock mods" are being tracked. We are methodically investigating cases. Accounts are being disabled, and never in isolation. It takes agreement by at least two admins, and usually more, for any action to be taken.
If you are generally a positive contributor to the site, such impacts to your karma are usually just "line noise" in the grand scheme of things.
Mod bombs:
In a similar vein, if you disagree with someone, do not attempt to silence them by using multiple accounts to mod their comments down.
We have seen cases of both "mod bombs" and "sock mods". We have held back on taking action until we are certain. Any action taken is first confirmed by at least one other staff member. Complaining about moderation is OFF TOPIC and tends to get moderated as such.
Limits
We've previously tried to set concrete limits. "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile." I have personally witnessed cases where one account downmodded another account 4 times in one day. For ten days in a row! That was just enough to avoid getting moderations reversed, but certainly enough to show a concerted effort to moderate the commenter rather than just the comment.
This will no longer be tolerated.
Admins can see who has moderated whom. We talk among ourselves. We discuss cases that come up. It's pretty simple, really: "Don't be a jerk!"
(Score: 0, Troll) by weilawei on Sunday September 05 2021, @12:04PM (30 children)
I see what you're doing, and.. well it's your website. I view the changes with trepidation, because these same sorts of announcements on Slashdot preceding the removal of anonymous posting, pseudoanonymous posting, then more recently, word filters (the word "nazi" was banned, to no avail, to not stopping spam or ASCII art or anything.
Also, SN came out of that whole, "Fuck Beta", thing. Those kinds of events lead to people seeing your website as unusable for discussion. Sock puppets do suck, but the explosion of them at Slashdot was a response to anonymous posting or pseudo anonymous posting being yanked because, "were are the admins and we know better."
Fun fact? My almost 2 decades old account got banned there, without abuse on my part or warning on theirs. Is that what's going to happen here? You admins seems really excited to tell us how admin powerful you are and how you can see everything.
It's not a good look, mate.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 05 2021, @12:23PM (11 children)
What alternative do you suggest to deal with it, or just let it go and learn to live with it?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 05 2021, @12:37PM (10 children)
Don't know that I have the answer, but I won't leave you with just the problems:
One part of the original answer was more moderation options, like Disagree. That does seem to have helped. I was merely noting previously encountered issues and the results they wrought.
One part of the issue here is an information asymmetry between admins laying down the smack and people getting the smack laid down on them. Perhaps make moderations or reactions public if they're already being recorded as tied to users and IPs? Several newer platforms for discourse use this method, and then everyone can see who the jerks are.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Sunday September 05 2021, @12:51PM (8 children)
We cannot compromise everyone's privacy without changing the entire feel of the site - not that we wish to do so. But dealing with moderation abuse it is fairly simple. They have to log in to moderate. They have told us who they are. There is no deduction involved in identifying the accounts responsible.
As one of the jerks in question is responsible for most of the noise on the subject, I don't think that we need to do that in this case. They were all given the opportunity to contact us directly and privately.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 05 2021, @01:00PM (7 children)
You say in one breath that they have to log in to moderate, but the article says they're ysing sock puppets. How do you identify sock puppets?
Also, this, "turn yourself in to us privately!", is some KGB-level stuff. No, this is why the US Constitution provides so many protections for due process in an open court, with the right to see the evidence, confront accusers, pull in experts, etc..
(Score: 2) by martyb on Sunday September 05 2021, @02:26PM (6 children)
Only logged-in users can moderate. We can see the userid of every moderation.
Wit is intellect, dancing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 05 2021, @02:55PM (5 children)
Whoosh. Sock puppets don't have the same UID. Durr..
How do you identify sock puppets?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 05 2021, @04:01PM
I think it has been explained in rather explicit detail. Users A, B, C, D, E, F, and G all log in about the same time every day. All 7 of them mod the same posts down. All 7 of them mod the same posts up. Since there are not 750,000 users all logging in every day, this block of 7 users are quite visible. Week after week, they establish a clear pattern of log on times, week after week they mod enemies down, and mod each other up. Week after week, they establish a clear pattern of either logging out about the same time and/or simply ceasing activity on the site at the same times. And, it goes on for months. And, months. And months. Worse, some or all of those accounts share the same IP address(es).
It's not exactly rocket science. It isn't even computer science. A computer nerd could set up a program to graph and chart the stuff, to verify his suspicions, but it doesn't take a genius to recognize such glaring patterns.
I have to conclude that you are rather dense, or you are phishing for details of admin's methods so you can try to get around admin scrutiny. Dunning-Kruger, much?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by janrinok on Sunday September 05 2021, @04:37PM (1 child)
The compromises were all human errors, and we have seen a whole range of them. Despite their claims, they are not always as bright as they think that they are.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 06 2021, @09:07AM
Oh wise and omnipotent janrinok, what claims were those? I don't think I have seen any.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 06 2021, @04:14PM
> How do you identify sock puppets?
AI.
(Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Monday September 06 2021, @05:44PM
Failures in basic operational security.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 06 2021, @05:40PM
Is there anyone who doesn't know who the jerks are? If not then maybe it's you. Although most of the jerks know who they are and wallow in it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by janrinok on Sunday September 05 2021, @12:34PM (14 children)
There is no intention to remove anonymous posting - on the whole it contributes to the site rather than detracts from it. It is unconnected from moderation abuse, which is the only thing we have tackled - as you know ACs cannot moderate.
Personally, I also tend to turn a bit of a blind eye to journal posts - I am more tolerant of minor transgressions there than I would be for a front page story. That is not to say that we would not act if something in the journals was compromising the site, but usually I don't even look at the journals. It is usually the daily submission, story, page hits and moderation statistics that bring something to our attention.
(Score: 1, Troll) by weilawei on Sunday September 05 2021, @12:39PM (13 children)
You have focused on the trees and missed the forest.
It's things *like that*. It's the mindset that, "I am admin, and I alone can fix this, fear me." C'mon, no need to be all Sauron-like, "we see all that you do!"
Let me expand on this. If the first thing you did after seeing my Disagree mod and reading my previous comment was go look at my mod and comment history, you should take a very hard look at your own expansively aggressive behavior, and the way people (such as yourself) act given the slightest shred of power.
Consider it a friendly early warning to not turn into a monster as you battle perceived monsters.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday September 05 2021, @01:02PM (3 children)
I will heed your advice in the spirit in which it was given, thank you.
I didn't even consider looking at your own, or anyone else's, moderation history, it wouldn't occur to me. In the recent past your moderations have sometimes been identified by the statistics - but for all the right reasons. There has been no reporting on any adverse moderation abuse since the bans were implemented around 21 Aug - there is no reason to do any more searches currently. But, just as we have always done, we will continue to investigate any potential problems that are flagged up to us.
I receive my fair share of moderations both good and bad - that is all part and parcel of having a site such as this. As I cannot counter them myself they might stay just the way they are, or somebody might moderate me again. It is not something that concerns me unless I feel that I ought to review my own comments.
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 05 2021, @05:50PM (2 children)
On the whole, the moderation system here is fairly flawless, better than any other I've seen so far. However! When I am modded unjustly, I will complain. I can easily tell when they moderate me and not my comment, and when the "offense" they take is personal/tribal, and I want it to be known when I see through their bullshit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 06 2021, @04:17PM (1 child)
People who complain about moderation are like comedians who complain to the audience for not laughing. Get off the stage, you're boring.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 06 2021, @09:49PM
Too cool for the room.
(Score: 4, Informative) by martyb on Sunday September 05 2021, @03:32PM (7 children)
I confine my looking at moderation activity to when investigating mod bombs or sock mods. We get daily reports that we can review and investigate.
Having decades of experience testing software, I am all-too-familiar with dealing with bruised ego and hurt feelings. That is why I strive to be patient and tolerant. Slow to jump to conclusions. Persistent and patient.
When I find bugs in my code, or others point it out to me, its... ego bruising. I know the feeling all too well! I strive to extend the same kindness and courtesy to others that I would want others to extend to me.
I step back and look at the big picture? What is best for *all* parties involved? "Speak rashly and you'll make the best speech you'll every regret." I take my position as a member of staff very seriously. I strive to think things through. Consider the implications. Look at the big picture. Don't let feelings drive my thinking. Strive for patience and tolerance. Others have been patient and tolerant with me when I made mistakes. They encouraged me to look back, see what I can learn from the experience, and take that lesson forward.
I've made mistakes. Publicly admitted them here, in stories on the front page. I'm human and it happens. But I have always tried to take these lessons to heart, shared what I learned in the process, and actions taken to set things right.
That's putting words in someone's mouth, or should I say a "strawman".
I have been with the site since the beginning. Perhaps in the early days with Barabas, some might have said something like that, but I have no recollection of it.
More importantly, I do not see if happening, now either. I count myself incredibly fortunate to work with such dedicated and selfless staff. I hope I am living up to the responsibilities I've been. I do not always agree with everyone, but I do strive to listen.
It bears mentioning that since we issued mod bans on a few users (and that was back around August 21) we've seen a decided drop in such behavior. It also bears mentioning that all such activity was discussed by multiple staff before *any* action was taken. We'd like nothing better than to have the community take care of itself -- that's why there IS moderation!
I cannot speak for anyone else, but *I* focus on the *comment* -- not on the *commenter*. If the comment stands on its own, great! That's called having a conversation! And it it does not? I can reply and express my viewpoint. There's tthat conversation thing again! =)
"Friendly early warning" taken. I hope all can see from my posting history that I strive to do so, but I can certainly stand for a gentle reminder. Thanks!
Wit is intellect, dancing.
(Score: 3, Funny) by khallow on Sunday September 05 2021, @10:42PM (1 child)
I saw an admin say that, then he knocked over a skyscraper and breathed nuclear fire on a half dozen Japanese tanks. Admins were frisky that day!
(Score: 2) by martyb on Sunday September 05 2021, @11:52PM
Oh? You means like THIS: When Sysadmins Ruled the Earth [craphound.com]
=)
Actually, my skills are relatively limited. I can restart Apache or slashd. And I can code a query or some templates.
I count on mechanicjay and audioguy for the REAL sysadmin skills!
Wit is intellect, dancing.
(Score: 2) by jasassin on Monday September 06 2021, @10:09AM (3 children)
When my code even compiles I'm happy. When it does what it's supposed to do, even happier. If someone told me about a bug in my code I would feel thankful.
Now onto the real subject (mod bullshit has been discussed to ad-nauseum), what is the deal with this new Tor Protocol? Brand news to me.
Govt conspiracy? Legit upgrades? Need someone in the know to just succinctly drop the bones.
jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
(Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Monday September 06 2021, @12:38PM (2 children)
The TOR site suggests that, for now, the key length in use is sufficiently long to defeat easy decryption, but they do not think that this will remain the case in the future. They are extending the length of the key so that it remains secure for a much longer period
See also:
However, they do say "V2 onion addresses are fundamentally insecure." Read into that what you will.
(Score: 2) by jasassin on Monday September 06 2021, @01:04PM
Thanks! Good stuff!
jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 07 2021, @03:50AM
From their mailing list:
To very quickly summarize why we are deprecating, in one word: Safety. Onion
service v2 uses RSA1024 and 80 bit SHA1 (truncated) addresses [1]. It also
still uses the TAP [2] handshake which has been entirely removed from Tor for
many years now _except_ v2 services. Its simplistic directory system exposes
it to a variety of enumeration and location-prediction attacks that give HSDir
relays too much power to enumerate or even block v2 services. Finally, v2
services are not being developed nor maintained anymore. Only the most severe
security issues are being addressed.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Monday September 06 2021, @01:19PM
Thanks for your efforts!
(Score: 3, Touché) by khallow on Sunday September 05 2021, @05:27PM
Seriously, what's up with the concern trolling about what SN admins could theoretically do? SN is just a discussion forum with a few nice security features. If you're trying to use it to coordinate the resistance to the World Order, then you're doing it wrong.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Sunday September 05 2021, @05:14PM
Here's the deal on bad behaviors on public forums: Like pr0n, in that devising specific rules to describe it is difficult, but everybody knows it when they see it.
And policing it is generally worth doing, because if you don't do it you turn whatever you have into a wretched hive of scum and villainy. Don't believe me? Just pop over to 8chan, where you can easily find forums devoted to such fine activities as coordinating death threat campaigns, doxxing, hatebombing, and other nastiness.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by sgleysti on Sunday September 05 2021, @05:15PM
Proper anonymous posting is still alive and well on SN, very much unlike /.
At least the admins are telling us what they're doing and why. I got the sense that the admins on /. would just do stuff with no explanation.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday September 05 2021, @05:16PM