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posted by janrinok on Wednesday May 18 2022, @05:30AM   Printer-friendly

The submissions queue is running very low. Please support the site and make submissions on the usual topics because, without them, we will have to reduce the number of stories that we can publish each day.

Thank you.

 
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1 (2)
  • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @07:25PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @07:25PM (#1246028)

    won't someone think of the censors?!

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 18 2022, @08:39PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 18 2022, @08:39PM (#1246046) Journal

      I prefer sensors that connect via I2C.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @08:07PM (19 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @08:07PM (#1246036)

    A news-aggregator/discussion site lives or dies on one main attribute: the engagement and quality of the discussion. Otherwise an RSS feed aggregator program would suffice.

    SN could simply duplicate the green's stories (same source URLs but non-plagiarizing freshly written descriptions) and I'd be perfectly happy. Because I come here for the discussion - hopefully more thoughtful and engaging than the unwashed green masses. It should be *better* because you are the ones who wouldn't settle for green banality.

    The problem is that the discussion here is simply bad. It's either a lone shitpost or two because no one can be arsed, or it's total global verbal thermonuclear war (like this post is turning into).

    Now maybe that's what the editors like, want or are just used to. As for me, I'm not intrerested in reading screen after screen of you suck/no you suck, it's all the jews/liberals/bronies fault, you're just a stupid girl, etc. Is the community here better than that or not?

    Us lurkers want to know.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @08:14PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @08:14PM (#1246038)

      Forgot to mention one important thing: HN introduced me to MDC as a troubled, fully human being with ideas occasionally worth consideriing. Rather than just the sad crazy butt of a derisive, long running 'ogg frog' joke on Kuro5in. Thanks SN for that, at least. (RIP MDC)

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @10:17PM (16 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @10:17PM (#1246074)

      The history of the site was generally attempts at discussions derailed by trolls with their racism and blind rightwing hate. To be fair aristarchus and azuma were two liberal users that would go all ad-hom nasty on people but I don't believe they stooped to lying. Facts didn't matter and every discussion would be invaded by trolls to derail and kind of consensus between liberals and conservatives.

      The only way forward is to make AC comments easily removed via spam mod or disabled entirely. Then have some basic rules like the moderation guide outlines and ban repeat offenders. Free speech absolutism fails because there is no way to control malicious posters. Community management is required, and should be highly transparent.

      Staff have already stated that they have no programmer that can work on the site's perl code so no new features will be added, and they seem understaffed just for editorial tasks. Hacker News does it the right way, no AC comments and quite struct rules about shitposting. SN doesn't have to be that strict, but should lay out ground rules to keep discussions at least semi-civil.

      Personally I leaned into the troll/shitposting here because of the propaganda tactics used in almost every discussion. Facts and proper context never matter, just whatever the person's personal belief happens to be. Thus all liberals are commie rats, and all conservatives are Nazi filth. Not a healthy environment for discussion, but that will not change when there are no repercussions for being an asshole, and that is up to staff to police. However they won't even run discussions about it, just messages like this article or begging for donations.

      Find somewhere else, check back here in a year. Even the founder is ashamed of the site and never posts. Also fuck the frequent "you can't post" and "form key" errors. What a joke.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @10:48PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @10:48PM (#1246088)

        > Staff have already stated that they have no programmer that can work on the site's perl code

        A solution already exists -- abandon Perl-based slashcode and migrate to a copy of the excellent Python-based clone running at pipedot.org.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @10:50PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @10:50PM (#1246089)

          s/Python/PHP/ above -- oops

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:16AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:16AM (#1246152)

          There are a number of solutions, but they all require some effort that is greater than nothing and a number of them require some expert knowledge that is (or seems to be, at a minimum) missing here. Sadly, this site is stuck as is without that and I don't see any new blood with the requisite skills and knowledge assuming that burden or even joining the site in the face of all the alternatives.

      • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday May 19 2022, @07:13AM (12 children)

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @07:13AM (#1246177) Journal

        We need better discussions too

        YES - the problem is one of individual behaviour and the staff are being asked to fix the problem by procedural means. We had hoped to attract a more intelligent community and for a while that was the case. The biggest changes began just prior to the 2016 election when conversations became more polarised and bots and sock-puppets appeared in much larger numbers in an effort to influence discussions.

        The only way forward is to make AC comments easily removed via spam mod or disabled entirely. Then have some basic rules like the moderation guide outlines and ban repeat offenders. Free speech absolutism fails because there is no way to control malicious posters. Community management is required, and should be highly transparent.

        We can ban AC posting unless the account is first logged in and then chooses simply to post as AC. It is the fact that ACs are unaccountable for their actions and statements that causes much of the problem. I would have to check but I think that is simply an option that needs to be deselected.

        However, that simply results in the generation of even more dummy accounts which then become essentially throwaway. There are some mitigations than can be employed such as new accounts being unable to post comments for, say, a specific period of time (48 hours / a week?) and a genuine email contact address being required. Automatic checks of the email could result in the account being disabled if the email address bounces or appears not to be monitored. We don't think that many in our community would welcome that suggestion. Nevertheless, some of the code for this exists today and was inherited from SlashCode.

        ban repeat offenders

        All ACs have the same user id - you cannot ban specific ACs unless you ban IP addresses, which could be shared by multiple contacts and completely innocent users. Some IPs are banned globally by external security companies - we have no control over what they ban.

        The downside of course is that we wouldn't have received your suggestion...

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @11:58AM (11 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @11:58AM (#1246223)

          I went back to the main page and perused some of the discussions posted after this one. Sigh.

          My recommendation:
          * Charge $5/verified email to create an account and wait a week to activate posting capability
          * Disallow anonymous posting from users who are not logged in
          * Enforce simple policy of 'Regardless of your political or other affiliation, communicate respectfully and in good faith with the community. Do not engage in speech that a reasonable person would interpret as an ad hominem attack, a threat or a call to violent and/or illegal action. Offenders will be temporarily banned, repeat offenders wil be permanently banned. If you don't like it, go set up and run your own discussion site and see how that works for you.'
          * Set a fixed time to observe the results, and if the site withers as a result, do like one famous US conservative politician:
                      Declare 'Mission Accomplished', then shut down the site and walk away.

          Also, if you can't attract a single software dev -- a primary audience for the site -- to help maintain it, then maybe the site is already dead and just exists only to waste the volunteers time and breed a colony of trolls.

          Speaking of that -- is *anybody* who started SN in 2014 still involved in running it? Or even still here?

          Dice no longer owns the green site and the threat of beta has subsided, so does this site still have a purpose? Why should it even continue when news.ycombinator.com, Lobste.rs and several subreddits already exist and have thriving communities?

          Has this site stayed alive all this time only because, to many of you it's your own private 'r/TheDonalds_ITdept' and the rest of us poor sods didn't get the memo?

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by janrinok on Thursday May 19 2022, @01:42PM (1 child)

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @01:42PM (#1246238) Journal
            I will answer your last question first
            • mechanicjay 7 sysadmin
            • audioguy 24 sysadmin
            • chromas 34 IRC
            • janrinok 52 editor
            • juggs 63 IRC+
            • martyb 72 editor (currently recovering from medical issues)
            • fnord666 652 editor
            • FatPhil 863 editor/IRC
            • hubie 1068 editor

            ...and I have probably just offended some by not looking high enough in the list of active uids! AnonymousCoward has the distinction of owning uid 1 - and every AC shares that uid to this day.

            Anyone with a userid of less than 4000 were all part of the original community (all joined in the first 2 months - the problem was keeping up with the account creations), and many are still commenting regularly nowadays. No offence is intended to anyone who has an uid higher than 4000 and considers themselves to have been part of the 'original community' - I agree, you were! We didn't reach the uid of 5000 until January the following year.

            • (Score: 5, Touché) by martyb on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:39PM

              by martyb (76) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:39PM (#1246311) Journal

              I can confirm JR's above comments -- I joined the site and created my account before we went live ( https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/02/17/0148235 [soylentnews.org] ) "Welcome to the World of Tomorrow... Today!" All the names listed are familiar to me! =)

              I have posted over 11,000 stories ( cf: "Most Active Authors" under: https://soylentnews.org/hof.pl#MAA [soylentnews.org] ).

              The primary reasons I have not posted recently are: (1) exhaustion, (2) my having had at least 3 strokes with vision and typing issues, and (3) I am now also trying to recover from COVID-19.

              I glanced at your suggestions, and I see something missing: How do propose to implement them? Are you volunteering to implement these changes? (I have made several coding changes to the site and tested TMB's changes over the years. I can attest that there's more to it than meets the eye.) OTOH, the code *is* reasonably-well organized.

              So... are you volunteering? What do you propose?

              --
              Wit is intellect, dancing.
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by carguy on Thursday May 19 2022, @02:24PM (2 children)

            by carguy (568) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @02:24PM (#1246251)

            Just to back up janrinok, I'm still here daily. For "reasons", I normally post and contribute stories AC, but logged in.

            • (Score: 4, Informative) by janrinok on Thursday May 19 2022, @02:33PM (1 child)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @02:33PM (#1246257) Journal
              Thanks - it was only when I started looking the the uids that I noticed that there are literally hundreds of our original community still regularly active.
              • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @10:51PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @10:51PM (#1246414)

                Thanks - it was only when I started looking the the uids that I noticed that there are literally hundreds of our original community still regularly active.

                Except aristarchus! Not that guy. Freeze Peaches Forever!

          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday May 19 2022, @02:29PM (5 children)

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @02:29PM (#1246253) Journal

            They are all suggestions worth considering but perhaps the majority would need the agreement of the community as a whole.

            Charging $5 and requiring a verified email would need a significant code change (i.e. cannot be done with current staff resources) and the agreement of the majority of the community. Some will see the verified email as impinging on their privacy. Personally I would be quite content with it and it would certainly solve some major problems but could create a some others.

            Disallowing anonymous posting from users who are not logged in can be done by changing a simple software option at boot up (I believe). It raises the same privacy concerns as the previous suggestion as some would say that we were 'tracking' them by use of their username.

            Your description of a simple policy is EXACTLY what we do. You have the moderation tools, we watch the moderations and if somebody is abusing them they get a temporary ban. This is done privately and it is up to the banned individual whether to publicise the fact. Only one individual has been permanently banned. Sock puppets are also banned and can be disabled very quickly when identified. Moderation abuse is also very easy to identify.

            I personally doubt that we will ever recruit another Perl programmer but we have one who is currently showing some interest. I hope that once he has looked at the code and played with it he will agree to take on the role. The first requirement is to successfully build the system using the existing out-of-date libraries and other key software as we cannot change the code until we can rebuild it again. But lets see what he decides. I don't care if he rewrites it all as long as we can continue with our existing data.

            We would like to see a rewrite of the system using something much more modern and maintainable. But to do that we have to have a team of programmers who can agree on which software packages to base it on and the language to be selected. TMB was looking at Rust before he left the site. This would be a big task requiring skill and experience but promising exactly the same pay as every other member of staff - $0. On a positive note, we add a 10% cost of living increase to the base sum at frequent intervals. After 8 years in the job I now earn $0!

            Dice no longer owns the green site and the threat of beta has subsided, so does this site still have a purpose? Why should it even continue when news.ycombinator.com, Lobste.rs and several subreddits already exist and have thriving communities?

            That is for you to decide. Many of us came from Slashdot and we like the community that we have - even when the children get a bit boisterous at the weekends - but only you can decide if it suits you. If you prefer another community there is no reason why you cannot be in both and, if you prefer the other one, go enjoy yourself.

            Has this site stayed alive all this time only because, to many of you it's your own private 'r/TheDonalds_ITdept' and the rest of us poor sods didn't get the memo?

            Politics is never ever discussed between staff. We don't consider it and I expect that we all have different views. We would be very happy if politics is never discussed on the site again too. We have spent over 2 years removing political stories from the front page, I can see nothing on the front page summaries that has a political spin on it that hasn't been put there by someone who doesn't like one side or the other. We take politics OUT of the submissions. And, just as you have done here, it is your perceived political bias that you are commenting on - not ours.

            We are also members of this community - when we are commenting as private individuals it is usually very obvious that we are doing so. We are just as entitled to express our opinions as anyone else in this community.

            • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @06:42PM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @06:42PM (#1246349)

              " We take politics OUT of the submissions."

              That is mostly a new development and previously there were many alt-right that would make it to the frontpage. For some reason gun politics tended to get through. Also if you truly are doing so then remove the politics tag. Just more damage control and narrative spin, blech. At least you're having the discussion, I guess you needed to hear suggestions from the right sort of person. Why is that I wonder? Does mentioning the alt-right bias of the site trigger your aristarchus emotional flipout? Are other people not allowed to be angry when avused by spam mods because YOU think I'm aristarchus? Check yourself, you are far from noble.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday May 19 2022, @10:24PM (2 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @10:24PM (#1246406) Journal

                and previously there were many alt-right that would make it to the frontpage.

                No, that never happened.

                Seriously, pick a week and look at the stories posted for that week, and calculate the ratio of genuine alt-right stories to all stories. You will find that ratio near or at zero for any week between the creation of the site in early 2014 and now.

                All I can say is that anyone repeating this nonsense has either never looked at the story mix, or is just lying.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @10:53PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @10:53PM (#1246417)

                  Would not trust khallow's judgment on "alt-right". For him, being the partisan hack that he is, alt-right is just normal. He thinks dog whistles are just normal whistles!

                  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Thursday May 19 2022, @11:21PM

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @11:21PM (#1246425) Journal

                    Would not trust khallow's judgment on "alt-right".

                    That's ok. I wouldn't trust your judgment on "alt-right" precisely because you're attacking other people on the basis of their alleged lack of ability to detect/distinguish alt-right stories. When any label of supposed danger, threat, or evil is so vulnerable to interpretation, that demonstrates that it is fundamentally frivolous. You know, like so many other labels out there (liberal, racism, terrorism, etc).

                    So go ahead show us wrong. Here's how: pick a date in the last eight years. And look at the stories for that day. The URL has the form:

                    https://soylentnews.org/index.pl?issue=YYYYMMDD

                    Where YYYY is the year, MM the month (May is 05), and DD the day. For example, May 3, 2014 [soylentnews.org]. Then count those many alt-right stories a week forward or a week behind from that date. When you don't find many - because those alt-right stories won't be there! - then you can come back and apologize for being a dick. Deal?

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @07:43PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @07:43PM (#1246368)

              #1246223 poster here. Thank you for all the replies, it's clear that you are passionate about SN and I salute you for it.

              As with so many other discussion sites, the choices this community and the site management made for SN have given rise to the problems here, and dedication to those choices also make solving the problems nigh-impossible. So I guess untill enough 'lentils change their minds or leave, this site will remain as it is. Which may be good enough for the members who choose to remain and participate.

              A very different site, Metafilter, has similar issues. It has long been a veritable swamp of easily triggered hypersensitives who lash out defensively like mama wolverines at the tiniest percieved slight, and it is currently going through yet another ownership change because the current owner has more-or-less burned out from its community shouting at him all the time. But the site still exists, and will continue -- even with a shrinking membership.

              Netslaves.com discussion site (ca. 2000, anyone remember them?) might still be here today, but the proprietors decided to goose the engagement by hiring a paid ringer to make knowledgeable and provocative posts on their site. When he did what they asked, that started the posting war that led to their decision to shut down (and wipe!) the site.

              It seems nearly every site has its minimum level of community, no matter how tetchy or combative (Stockholm syndrome, anyone? 😊 )

              So never mind about my other suggestions.

              My greatest concern for SN is that you're running a code base you can't maintain and may not even be able to diagnose without heroic-level help. And you are having difficulty recruiting maintainers. Sadly, I can't help with Perl code, but I'd like to suggest that you consider posting this non-binding question as a Meta-section story to the community for discussion:

              "If The SN team committed to planning and executing a migration away from Perl/rehash to PHP-based Pipecode.org, how many of you PHP'ers would volunteer medium-to-long term to finish, maintain and enhance the codebase to our current and future needs? And how many of you others would donate a bit more short-term to spin up the necessary extra VPS instances and infrastructure to facilitate work on the new site?"

              I believe that your main gating factor here is that the current choice is between maintaining the current Perl base vs architecting a whole new codebase from scratch. Nobody wants to do the first, and I doubt anyone wants to commit to the second.

              On the other hand, Pipecode already exists, perhaps not as fully as SN's current code, but the creator is still around and I bet they'd be happy to answer any questions about it. I strongly feel that you'd get a bigger and more enthusiastic response for supporting a PHP codebase than Perl. And consider that perfection (starting from scratch? In Rust? Ack!) is the enemy of the good-enough (PHP).

              This is just my personal opinion, or rather, belief. Do with it what you wish. It's your site after all, I'm just a longtime lurker with one foot already out the door.

              Thank you for listening. No reply needed, just please consider posting the pipedot question to the community.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @02:31AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @02:31AM (#1246470)

      SN could simply duplicate the green's stories (same source URLs but non-plagiarizing freshly written descriptions)

      You're probably stepping on somebody's sore spot there. In fact, I'm sure of it. I have done as you suggest. A time or two, the stories were accepted. And, a time or two, I was reminded that we do not plagiarize the green site - despite the fact I did not plagiarize. In fact, I saw an interesting topic, did an internet search, found multiple sources for the story, and made my own sub based on those sources.

      If you go through with your idea, be sure that nothing you submit resembles whatever that other site posted. It's best if your article on green women came from a different site, with a different author, and different editors than whatever /. may have used.

  • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday May 18 2022, @09:54PM (3 children)

    by acid andy (1683) on Wednesday May 18 2022, @09:54PM (#1246065) Homepage Journal

    When you consider a story, do you have a rough cut-off age above which you tend to reject older stories? For example, if I find a really interesting article that's a few months old but it's not commonly known about and wasn't on this site before, is it likely to be rejected as too out of date? If so, how new should an article be to avoid wasting the ed's and submitter's time?

    --
    If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @10:44PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @10:44PM (#1246086)

      I've always thought articles shouldn't be solely in chronological order, and some should actually be revisited. Sadly improving functionality is a non-starter since no one wants to work with perl and the site managers are clised to such ideas thinking SN is perfect as is.

      • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday May 19 2022, @07:26AM

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @07:26AM (#1246179) Journal

        We do NOT take the submitter or the date/time of the information into consideration when evaluating submissions. We look at the content. Whether the cure for cancer was discovered yesterday or a year ago but we are only just being told, it is still an important submission.

        No single editor deletes a submission - there is usually a consensus of 3 editors who each leave their views (in notes that you cannot see) before a submission is declined. If the submission queue is healthy (30+ submissions remaining) we do remove the older submissions after a specific period of time. This is at least 1 week and has been much longer. All submissions remain in the database.

        However, there are some things that are no longer relevant because they have been overtaken by more recent reporting.

        We are not closed to new ideas. We know very well the site is not perfect. We have not got the resources to make many of the changes that are being suggested.

    • (Score: 2) by hubie on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:30AM

      by hubie (1068) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:30AM (#1246146) Journal

      If there is no inherent timeliness to the story (eg, "Obama favored to win second term!") there's no reason not to submit something like that. If you're worried it might look too old, you can comment on that up front, something to the effect of "Here's a story that came out six months ago, but flew under the radar." If it is a link to a story you could also send the link to the upstart bot and let it send in the submission for you.

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @11:02PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @11:02PM (#1246092)

    Found this. Can't be arsed to submit it, but here's the gist:

    HuffPost
    Alex Jones Screams At Viewers To Buy His Products, Tells Them It's 'Life And Death'

    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/alex-jones-screams-viewers-buy-030814308.html [yahoo.com]

    Maybe the eds can get some idea of how they are making us feel.

    https://www.newsweek.com/alex-jones-infowars-viewers-banned-fight-enemy-products-shop-bankruptcy-1706080 [newsweek.com]

    Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, anonymous comment posting has temporarily been disabled. You can still login to post. However, if bad posting continues from your IP or Subnet that privilege could be revoked as well.

    OK! OK! I'll take the Deluxe SoylentNews CRT Survival Kit, for $500! Please do not ban me further!

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @11:13PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 18 2022, @11:13PM (#1246095)

      Dear lord they're selling CRT survival kits??? My white fragility needs one SO BAD! Do they sell something for the kids? I'm worried those damn kommie neighbors are gonna infect my kids with that CRT vaxx so I'd like to get them some sort of protective measures. Know any horsey paste wholesalers? Maybe some vit D suppositories? I hear that is the fastest way to mega dose da D.

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by maxwell demon on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:42AM (1 child)

        by maxwell demon (1608) on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:42AM (#1246155) Journal

        Dear lord they're selling CRT survival kits???

        Of course. In the days of flat screens, you'll have a hard time finding a new CRT. Thus making sure your CRT survives is critical.

        --
        The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @05:25AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @05:25AM (#1246509)

          Too late, I think they banned that AC. Buggered his IP, and silenced his opinion. Oh, Mores! Oh, Tempura! The Huge Manatees!

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