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posted by janrinok on Wednesday July 13 2022, @06:32AM   Printer-friendly

After experiencing extensive spamming, ad-hominem attacks, and trolling it became necessary to protect the site by preventing all Anonymous Coward (AC) comments by anyone who was not logged in. This was a reluctant measure but it proved to be 99.9% effective. It was however, far from ideal. It partially isolated many of the responsible ACs who contribute regularly to the site and provide a valuable input to many of our discussions. They are still able to use journals for posting as the editors of SoylentNews have no control over the content of journals or the comments made in them.

I sought an alternative solution and provided access to some of the stories on the front page and marked them as AC Friendly. I had hoped by demonstrating to those abusing the site that there was a simple solution that they would perhaps cease, or at least return to previously manageable levels. Unfortunately this was not to be. The abuse restarted almost immediately and has continued in every AC Friendly story that has been published. It has clearly demonstrated that this isn't a case of the abusers defending free speech or any other laudable and justifiable aim but simply an attempt to prevent the majority of the community from holding any form of discussion at all. I am not continuing the AC Friendly stories on the main page with the sole exception of this Meta story.

I next tried to switch the attempts to include our AC community around by providing stories from the front page initially to my own journal, but subsequently to the journal of a new account named 'AC Friendly'. This was rather labour intensive and was not something that I could continue to do in the long term. These efforts have been ignored and do not seem to be of any interest to the AC community. Likewise I will not continue this effort unless there is evidence that it is wanted.

There are many perfectly understandable reasons for wishing to post comments as an Anonymous Coward. This was recognised when the original Slashdot code was written and provision was made for such individuals in the software. It is a straightforward matter to log in to the site and then automatically post as AC from then on. This both protects the site itself and those using it. If your justification is that you do not trust the staff then I must question why you would want to remain on the site.

Free speech is an essential part of our ethos but it is necessary to realise that free speech and anonymity are not necessarily related. We want people to be able to express their views without fear of harassment, abuse, or unfair moderation. Only by doing so can we truly claim to have free speech. It means that even those with whom we strongly disagree have the right to express their opinions. Subsequent attempts to argue against those views should not involve any form of harassment of the individual making them. Any attempt to prevent someone from expressing their views is directly counter to the very concept of 'free speech'.

Likewise, anonymity is something to be valued. Attempts to unmask either named or anonymous accounts is unacceptable to this site's administration and will not be tolerated. Those who publish information that appears credible to us must be deterred from continuing by whatever means are necessary. We cannot verify every claim made regarding the personal information of a community member and we must therefore assume that it is has some basis in truth and is an attempt at doxing. It does not matter where the information stated in the claim originates or whether it has been stated on this site or elsewhere previously. If it has the potential to unmask a community member it will be treated as doxing. The site will do all it can to protect community members. We are also fortunate that in the 8 years we have been operating we have only had one account that felt it was an acceptable thing to do. That account has been closed.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the toxic environment that has developed on the site has cost us numerous valued community members - both staff and regular contributors of submissions and comments. It cannot be allowed to continue. There is also no doubt that there is a straightforward and simple solution, and that is to prevent AC participation without the creation of an account. The software was designed to do this and it is wasted effort trying to find alternatives when it is unnecessary to do so.

There has been quite a bit of discussion over the last week or so. We have had a former community member (who was also once a member of staff) return to the site with his own story. Initially he chose to remain anonymous but subsequently decided to continue his comments under his username. I encourage you all to read the link given and the subsequent comments given in reply. I am very grateful that has taken the effort to explain why he has did what he has done and I welcome him back to our community if he choses to stay. As part of my reply to him I made the following statement:

It is vitally important that everyone is able to express their own point of view without harassment or intimidation or even unfair moderation. We do not all agree with each other. That is the same in any community. But by full, frank and honest discussion we can at least understand each others point of view and possibly identify potential solutions. The freedom of expression is still essential on the site - but it can only exist if we can ensure that it can be conducted in a suitable environment.

I stand by that statement. Since that comment was published I have received other views and experiences of the toxicity of our site from a significant number of individuals, including regular community members and both current and former staff. Quite simply, if we do not change then in all likelihood we will not survive much longer. It is not too late to make the necessary changes but time is running out.

I promised you that no changes would be made to how the site operates without first giving you all the chance to express your own opinions. But you have to decide now which path you want the site to follow. This cannot be a simple vote - as an extreme example we have no way of verifying that AC comments are not the result of a single person, or if some sock-puppets are still active on the site. Everyone has the right to be heard. However, let me point out a few rules:

  • Any attempt to disrupt this Meta by spamming, ad-hominem attacks or trolling abuse will count as someone expressing an opinion that we should insist on accounts for all those wishing to post as AC. If anyone thinks that by abusing the site they will be helping their case they are mistaken. However, such actions will clearly show to the community that those who have been making the most noise about being prevented from expressing themselves are not actually fighting for free speech, but rather they are determined to prevent you from exercising your right to it.
  • It will be pointless to keep repeating the same views as an AC. We cannot separate them. You want to be anonymous, you choose to have the account ID #1, and this, unfortunately, is a direct consequence to that decision.
  • All views will be collated and then a decision will be made based upon them by the staff. This will include the SN Board who may accept that decision, but who have the right to choose the path that the site eventually takes. It may not be the decision that any of us want.

This is an important issue. It cannot be a simple vote but I encourage as many people as possible to express their opinions. It might be the last chance for you to do so. The Meta will stay active for several days to at least mid-week - but if it is abused excessively then it will be taken down and we will be forced to make a decision base on whatever views we already have or can get from elsewhere. I will endeavour to move the Meta in the story queue so that it remains on the front page. Many of our community log on at different times of the day or only on specific days. I would like to give everyone a chance to see the Meta story and to make their views known.

This is your opportunity - please do not waste it.

[Ed's Comment: See bold text - warning 2022-07-10 12:36 UTC]

 
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  • (Score: 4, Funny) by nostyle on Saturday July 09 2022, @03:51PM (3 children)

    by nostyle (11497) on Saturday July 09 2022, @03:51PM (#1259168) Journal

    I'm all for showing
    Posts that spring from true ACs
    When done in Haiku [wikipedia.org].

    If you can't do this
    What you have to say should die
    Like leaves in the fall.

    Come on - show your chops!
    And stop drowning us in text
    Like a summer flood.

    And do not repeat
    your plaints over and over
    like endless winter.

    --

    I won't grow up.
    Not a penny will I pinch.
    I will never grow a mustache,
    Or a fraction of an inch.
    'Cause growing up is awfuller
    Than all the awful things that ever were.
    I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up,

    -Peter Pan

    • (Score: 1) by liar on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:08PM (1 child)

      by liar (17039) on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:08PM (#1259203)

      Aren't Haiku traditionally about nature? Does Human nature qualify ?

      --
      Noli nothis permittere te terere.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @11:52PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @11:52PM (#1259609)

        Yes, but the rules in English are much less defined. Traditionally, these would lead to longer poems that require the proper setup for continuing verses.

    • (Score: 2) by Aurean on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:25PM

      by Aurean (4924) on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:25PM (#1259245)

      A proof-of-work system that provides entertainment as a side product. I like it!

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @03:52PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @03:52PM (#1259169)

    You can't fix a societal problem with a technical solution.
    Harassers and abusers probably aren't going to be put off until either a cop or a lawyer shows up at their door.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Common Joe on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:06PM (2 children)

      by Common Joe (33) <{common.joe.0101} {at} {gmail.com}> on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:06PM (#1259241) Journal

      Is the solution you're proposing to send a cop or lawyer to someone's door?

      • (Score: -1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:09AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:09AM (#1259328)

        Yes. Stalking and harassment are crimes.

        Literal children have had visits from cops for less.

        • (Score: 2) by Common Joe on Sunday July 10 2022, @03:38AM

          by Common Joe (33) <{common.joe.0101} {at} {gmail.com}> on Sunday July 10 2022, @03:38AM (#1259358) Journal

          Yes, children have been visited for far less. But let's forget for a moment that cops are often bullies.

          I'm sure the public DA will be all over this. I mean, we don't have the funds to combat this with a hired lawyer, so it must be a public DA. In which state should we file this? And I'm sure the DA has the time for a case that crosses international borders to chase this person down.

          And after that, the warrant canary will be busted because at least one government (probably more) will be sucking info from our servers. That will go over very well with this crowd.

          I see someone modded you insightful, but I disagree with how insightful that comment was. I'm going to go for the rare down vote and mark that comment as overrated.

  • (Score: 2) by MIRV888 on Saturday July 09 2022, @03:58PM

    by MIRV888 (11376) on Saturday July 09 2022, @03:58PM (#1259174)

    There's lots of interesting topics covered and generally civil debate.
    As far as anonymous posting goes, it's not a big deal to me, but you need to keep the AP option. It's important for people to be able to post frankly even if their opinion is in the minority.
    I don't have a good solution for the trolling via AP. I will say it came about suddenly from my point of view and seems to have been relentless since then.
    Keep fighting the good fight. I'll respect your decision either way.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by turgid on Saturday July 09 2022, @04:07PM

    by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09 2022, @04:07PM (#1259182) Journal

    You volunteers do a great job and this is a good place to keep up with some very specialised technical news (science, computers, software, politics) and to talk to some very knowledgeable people especially in journals where you can ask all sorts of questions and often get good answers.

    I really value being able to read other people's points of view, even (especially) people I disagree with and obviously with different experiences and reasons for those views.

    It's a shame the spam and the racist hate garbage can't be removed or hidden, and sometimes dealing with trolling ACs can seem like swatting flies forever but mostly they can be ignored.

    Soylent News is not a public utility. It's your site, volunteers. You owe us nothing. You owe the AC trolls and spammers nothing. You owe it to yourselves to protect your investment (time and money). Unfortunately, that means banning the persistent AC spammers and trolls.

    As I have said before, if the trolls and spammers want somewhere to go, they are free to chose amongst the millions of other sites in the Internet or start their own. That's freedom. They're not banned from the whole Internet. By their own initiative and industry they can create their own places. I think it's called being enterprising.

    Sometimes I like to post anonymously so I can speak more freely. I know I have a reputation so some things I say are better said without that baggage.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @04:25PM (28 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @04:25PM (#1259185)

    Nothing more, nothing less.
    Anyone can notice how the very same persons who complain about "toxicity", are using every opportunity to spew hate onto anyone who dares disagree with them.

    The thing happening here, is absolutely nothing new. Not the first site takeover by the organized minority of censorship pushers, nor the last.
    Not the first time an oh-so-convenient spammer appearing, either, to be used as a stick to beat the unwilling to-be-converts. Same old, same old.

    By the way, the programmer who could have easily stopped the spam, had been hounded off the site by the very same "anti-toxic", pro-censorship coterie. A purest coincidence, I am sure.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by sigterm on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:16PM (27 children)

      by sigterm (849) on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:16PM (#1259261)

      Note: Parent may contain opinions and statements that some would consider controversial, but it's absolutely NOT a troll. I wish I could mod it up, but the best I can do for now is post a reply.

      I wholeheartedly agree with the parent's point that terms like "toxicity" are subjective to the point of being entirely devoid of meaning, especially in a discussion about moderation of a public forum.

      If someone's derailing the conversation, or swearing, or making threats, or posting libelous statements, then say so and back up that claim with evidence. It's not hard. However, saying that someone should be censored because you consider them guilty of a nebulous activity like "toxicity" is nothing but a power play.

      Also, modding a post as "troll" just because you don't like someone's viewpoint is doing the site a great disservice. And in a thread about destructive trolling, no less!

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Saturday July 09 2022, @11:57PM (25 children)

        by acid andy (1683) on Saturday July 09 2022, @11:57PM (#1259323) Homepage Journal

        Sorry to go offtopic here but I just can't help myself. Would you consider "unethical behavior" a "nebulous activity"? The term "toxicity" isn't devoid of meaning. It's a shorthand label for a class of behaviors that many (probably a majority) of our community consider highly detrimental to that community. You gave a few good examples yourself although if they think I'm going to stop swearing, they're having a fucking laugh. :)

        If someone's derailing the conversation, or swearing, or making threats, or posting libelous statements, then say so and back up that claim with evidence. It's not hard.

        It wouldn't be hard if that were happening just once or twice every few articles. It's not. Basically, life's too short to keep feeding the trolls and most of us have better things to do.

        --
        If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:20AM (24 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:20AM (#1259330)

          How did you manage to survive all the preceding years of your life, without helpful censors everywhere to protect you from oh-so-bad words on a screen?
          What stops you from keeping to apply those same survival practices to the words that show on a screen, today and tomorrow?

          • (Score: 3, Touché) by acid andy on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:46AM

            by acid andy (1683) on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:46AM (#1259334) Homepage Journal

            Just because something is tolerable, doesn't mean it's an enjoyable experience. When participating here becomes more unpleasant than pleasant, people stop bothering to do it. For me, it's still enjoyable, most of the time, but others are reaching their limits.

            --
            If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
          • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:53AM (22 children)

            by acid andy (1683) on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:53AM (#1259338) Homepage Journal

            I just want to add that I don't like censorship. I'd prefer that rather than Spam posts being deleted, they are put behind an extra link with a click to download them. It's not going to happen, though, unless someone steps up to write the code.

            --
            If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
            • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @02:12AM (21 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @02:12AM (#1259349)

              No one is going to waste time writing code which is sure not to be accepted. Spam is an excuse, user tracking is the goal.

              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:31AM (15 children)

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:31AM (#1259413) Journal

                How many times must I repeat this? - "We DO NOT CARE who you are or where you are in the real world". I have got much better things to do with my life. We DO CARE that the community enjoy using this site and can do so with fear of harassment, personal attacks or worse.

                If you do not trust the site administration why are you even entering into a discussion about the site's future and your place in it? Shouldn't you be volunteering to join the team in order to eventually replace them, or leaving us altogether? Alternatively, you are always free to create your own site that you can run with any set of rules that you choose including no rules at all.

                The only way that the site will build the community is to improve everything about their experience on SN. Better stories, better administration, better discussions, better moderating, and removing any of those things that spoil that experience.

                I can give an analogy with regards to purchasing an expensive item. Many of us are happy to enter a shop, browse around, perhaps ask a few questions of somebody who knows more than we might do, select what we want, and then purchase it. It can be a pleasant experience or at least a rewarding one.

                But others are equally happy to queue outside a major store on the eve of Black Friday and then to fight their way to whatever it is that they want to spend their money on, fight off other customers who have done precisely the same thing, and then return home as one of a relatively small group of successful customers. Both might achieve the same end, but one is, to my mind, and far more enjoyable experience than the other.

                While some of you are content to wade through reams of spam, personal abuse or simply off-topic ramblings - many of us are not. Why should the site accept the lowest possible standard of discussion when the majority would rather we aim somewhat higher? From 2014 to 2016 we did this extremely well but then the list of acceptable topics was changed (to include Politics) and I think the majority of editors agree that was our biggest mistake. We have now rectified that error - that has to be a clear and positive link to another topic for a politics story to feature on the front page. You have, and will continue to have, the journals for political stories or anything else that is legal.

                • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:28AM (13 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:28AM (#1259417)

                  We cannot trust you, janrinok. You do not even realize what was your biggest mistake. It wasn't "allowing" politics, it was failure to recognize politics, a common failing amoungst techies. Even now, with this proposal, you misread what is going on. I, for one, vote for ACs to remain as they are. Unless you want to give ACs moderation points. Just a thought.

                  • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday July 10 2022, @10:07AM (11 children)

                    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 10 2022, @10:07AM (#1259424) Journal

                    Interesting IP hash - Previously only ever used by MockingBird, but only 98 times. Now where I have heard that username before? Oh yeah, your anonymity is obviously very important to you.

                    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:39PM (7 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:39PM (#1259566)

                      See? We can't trust you, jan! So who is this Mockingbird that you have so cleverly outed? Someone posting AC after clicking the little box, so they can't be traced? It is very bad form to divulge user information like this, janrinok, a violation of professional IT ethics. But you have repeatedly done so in your quest for the White Ari, who took your leg all those years ago.

                          Perhaps you should admit the truth. If the only way a Soylentil can post is the log in to an account, it is easy peasy to block that account. Not only can they not post under their username, they cannot post at all. This is why you want to move to banning all AC posting. You blocked Mockingbird, I take it. Why? Did not this member of our community have something to say? Like 98 times? You are fooling no one, janrinok. And I join the many other Soylentils that have pointed out that if you do this, you will end SoylentNews.

                      You began this crusade on, what? July 6th? Seems the prophet was correct.

                      • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Monday July 11 2022, @05:46AM (1 child)

                        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @05:46AM (#1259663) Journal

                        It's not a crusade.

                        The action began several weeks earlier than the 6th of July after discussion over many months. Opinions were and are changing on the benefits of full AC posting to the site. Your prophecies remain unfulfilled.

                        If nothing is done then the site will close. There is very little doubt about that. If changes are made then the site may well continue. There is only one sensible option to choose from the two offered, because those ACs who are trashing the site are surely not going to change.

                        We are not preventing freedom of speech, we are not stopping anonymous posting. There will still be some spam and abuse after any changes that the community wish to see are made. We are merely making it more difficult for those who wish to destroy the site to be successful. I do not think that we will have a perfect site but one which is acceptable to the majority.

                        • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:00AM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:00AM (#1260068)

                          You may have noticed, or perhaps not given your mercenary STEM focus, that I have been re-reading Moby Dick in parallel with your "Big" discussion. Ahab is a study of a man possessed. And I suggest that as "captain" of the Pequod SoylentNews, you are equally obsessed. You would rather close this site down, than allow the White Whale to swim freely on the Line, or for aristarchus to ignore your attempted bannation. Well, so be it. You do know how the novel ends, do you janrinok? Literature can be a resource when one is called upon to manage a crew, on the Pacific whaling grounds, or the rude internet.

                          But how fair? Fair for death and doom,- that's fair for Moby Dick. It's a fair wind that's only fair for that accursed fish.- The very tube he pointed at me!- the very one; this one- I hold it here; he would have killed me with the very thing I handle now.- Aye and he would fain kill all his crew. Does he not say he will not strike his spars to any gale? Has he not dashed his heavenly quadrant? and in these same perilous seas, gropes he not his way by mere dead reckoning of the error-abounding log? and in this very Typhoon, did he not swear that he would have no lightning-rods? But shall this crazed old man be tamely suffered to drag a whole ship's company down to doom with him?- Yes, it would make him the wilful murderer of thirty men and more, if this ship come to any deadly harm; and come to deadly harm, my soul swears this ship will, if Ahab have his way.

                          Starbuck, speaking, chapter 123, The Musket

                      • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday July 11 2022, @05:50AM (4 children)

                        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @05:50AM (#1259664) Journal

                        So who is this Mockingbird that you have so cleverly outed?

                        Site usernames are public - they are attached to every comment where they are known. They have their own publicly viewable information, signatures, bios, and journals. The only compromise is that you seem personally hurt by this revelation.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @08:11AM (3 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @08:11AM (#1260081)

                          But no one knew that the AC shared a Tor outpoint with this Mockingbird. Why did you bring it up, janrinok? In fact, why did you look it up in the first place? You seem to be obsessed.

                          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday July 12 2022, @08:44AM (2 children)

                            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 12 2022, @08:44AM (#1260087) Journal

                            I mention it because your security is less than optimum. I assumed that, as an AC, this would be interest to you? When you post a comment you really need to consider what information you are sharing.

                            I don't have to look up hashes - they are displayed on the screen in front of me. They help us to follow conversations when there is no username or user ID displayed. I have available to me a stream of all comments from all stories so a simple 'AC' does not help very much.

                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:29AM (1 child)

                              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:29AM (#1260680)

                              less than a mile ahead- Moby Dick bodily burst into view! For not by any calm and indolent spoutings; not by the peaceable gush of that mystic fountain in his head, did the White Whale now reveal his vicinity; but by the far more wondrous phenomenon of breaching. Rising with his utmost velocity from the furthest depths, the Sperm Whale thus booms his entire bulk into the pure element of air, and piling up a mountain of dazzling foam, shows his place to the distance of seven miles and more. In those moments, the torn, enraged waves he shakes off, seem his mane; in some cases, this breaching is his act of defiance.

                              Moby Dick, Chapter 134 - The Chase - Second Day

                              • (Score: 2) by kazzie on Thursday July 14 2022, @10:07AM

                                by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Thursday July 14 2022, @10:07AM (#1260764)

                                Mockingbird, Moby Dick, what's next on the bookshelf?

                    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:53PM (2 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:53PM (#1259590)

                      Interesting IP hash...

                      Boy is that creepy! Conform, we're here to help you...

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @02:40AM (1 child)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @02:40AM (#1259631)

                        You know what's really creepy? Calling the above post a "Troll."

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @07:09AM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @07:09AM (#1259687)

                          Yep, welcome to SN, such actions get wrapped into the human response to authority figures. How anyone here can find this repeated attempt to unmask users under the guise of informed authority is worrisome, but then again look at the bullshit rampaging all around the planet.

                  • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday July 10 2022, @10:26AM

                    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 10 2022, @10:26AM (#1259427) Journal

                    If we give 10 moderation points to the Anonymous Coward account how far do you think they will go when spread among all of the Anonymous Cowards? You are all the same account - #1. I keep saying this but you do not understand.

                    But if you log in and then post as AC you will get moderation points and you will be able to use them! You are arguing against what you have just asked us to give to you.

                    -

                    The site functioned perfectly well for 2 years without Politics being a topic or a nexus. It was principally the idea of TMB who thought that it would allow discussion of the 2016 election. It was initially intended as a separate part of the site with its own editors. When there were no volunteers to do that job it fell to the existing editors and it was combined into the Topics as a nexus.

                    There are many places where you can discuss politics - including on this site. The problem as I see it is that you do not like what other people want to say, but if you support free speech then they have every right to say it. Your solution is to drive them away.

                • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @09:42PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @09:42PM (#1259926)

                  I:

                  No one is going to waste time writing code which is sure not to be accepted. Spam is an excuse, user tracking is the goal.

                  You:

                  We DO CARE that the community enjoy using this site and can do so with fear of harassment, personal attacks or worse.

                  Why should the site accept the lowest possible standard of discussion when the majority would rather we aim somewhat higher?

                  Thanks for confirmation.

                  All of us, you included, know how easily anything is declared "harassment, personal attacks or worse" when the definition is "whatever someone with an agenda decided to throw a fit about". All of us, you included, know how easily "higher standard of discussion" is twisted into "echo chamber". If you are forced to assist certain users in doing that, then so be it. But no need to pretend and dissemble when doing the deed.

              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Mykl on Monday July 11 2022, @12:59AM (4 children)

                by Mykl (1112) on Monday July 11 2022, @12:59AM (#1259620)

                No one is going to waste time writing code which is sure not to be accepted. Spam is an excuse, user tracking is the goal.

                IMO, this is a bullshit smokescreen being used by those who want to continue the current trend of trolling and spam. I do not believe it's an argument being made in good faith. Indeed, if there were a technical solution available that prevented the ban of non-logged-in ACs, that would arguably _improve_ anonymity by retaining True AC posting.

                None of the suggested technical solutions that I've seen so far include additional tracking. Rather, all of them rely on changes to visibility based on the existing moderation system.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @09:27PM (3 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @09:27PM (#1259921)

                  No one on the staff even suggested of any desire for such a solution. The ban was implemented as a fait accompli, with some useless discussion created afterward to manufacture a post factum excuse. That, and the plainly laughable volume of the spam in question (what, a couple messages in a day? or four or five? lol), taken together, to me signal a lack of good faith.

                  • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Wednesday July 13 2022, @06:44AM (2 children)

                    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 13 2022, @06:44AM (#1260409) Journal

                    101 spams in 16 hours.

                    How many comments in this discussion alone are from or about aristarchus - which is not the topic under discussion?. 10%? 20% more. That means that at the time of writing this there are over 100 unnecessary attempts at disrupting this discussion.

                    How many genuine ACs have provided different alternative solutions to the problem? Ignoring the problem is not a solution if it is driving members of the community away.

                    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:32AM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:32AM (#1260681)

                      It is obvious what you are doing, janrinok.

                      How many comments in this discussion alone are from or about aristarchus - which is not the topic under discussion?. 10%? 20% more.

                      This entire ploy is about stopping aristarchus posting as AC. Disruption? Or just outing the truth? APK is the pretext, aristarchus never spammed at all. But he is evading janrinok's ban of him.

                      • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Thursday July 14 2022, @05:05AM

                        by Mykl (1112) on Thursday July 14 2022, @05:05AM (#1260713)

                        aristarchus never spammed at all

                        Ari consistently and constantly posts near-identical "Free Ari" or "Ban Runaway" posts on every journal discussion and AC-Friendly article. It's the definition of spam. He's doing it right now as we speak.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Sunday July 10 2022, @06:41PM

        If someone's derailing the conversation, or swearing, or making threats, or posting libelous statements, then say so and back up that claim with evidence. It's not hard. However, saying that someone should be censored because you consider them guilty of a nebulous activity like "toxicity" is nothing but a power play.

        Also, modding a post as "troll" just because you don't like someone's viewpoint is doing the site a great disservice. And in a thread about destructive trolling, no less!

        Those are fair points. And it exposes the (IMHO) real issue.

        Which is that in order for the community to survive, it actually needs to be a community.

        Meaning that those who submit, post (whether AC or not) or moderate on the site do so in good faith. That means giving folks the benefit of the doubt and, even if you don't agree or even respect the views of others, recognize that those folks probably believe the same about you.

        That doesn't make them your enemy and it doesn't make them not humans.

        Even those who you might believe are misguided or even "toxic," should be able to express themselves. If you disagree, then present your alternative viewpoint (or just mod them '0, Disagree').

        I got sucked into all manner of useless arguments that reduced the quality of my participation. And when it became clear that I wasn't contributing positively, I left -- not because of the bad behavior of others, but because of my own.

        I believe I can do better, and I will try to do so.

        That said, if you are unhappy with what someone else posts. you have options that don't include Spam/Troll mods. Those (again, IMHO) should be reserved for actual spam/troll posts.

        I think the idea that anyone outside of SN really cares (and that includes government) what gets posted here is moronic, but far be it for me to try to disabuse the paranoid. Especially because occasionally someone is out to get them.

        So if you are really concerned about being persecuted for your thoughts, ideas and beliefs, then posting on SN (and pretty much anywhere else) is a bad idea.

        I'm not (and have no interest in) telling anyone what to do, think or say, but it wouldn't hurt for folks to examine their motives in general, and what, if anything, a particular comment might add (or subtract) from a discussion.

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by sigterm on Saturday July 09 2022, @04:26PM

    by sigterm (849) on Saturday July 09 2022, @04:26PM (#1259186)

    I visit the site at least once a day, and in all honesty I have to say that I haven't noticed the (recent?) AC trolling. As in, at all.

    Perhaps I'm just too used to skipping nonsensical posts, or perhaps one has to browse at the -1 level to see this. In either case, my SoylentNews experience hasn't been even slightly affected by ACs.

    Disallowing ACs seems an extraordinarily heavy-handed approach, when another solution seems blindingly obvious: Why not simply add a user-configurable option to filter AC comments? Perhaps including all replies to such posts? Perhaps with a separate score setting from non-AC posts? Perhaps distinguishing between "true" ACs and anonymous posts by logged-in users?

    That way, anyone inconvenienced by AC trolling/harassment/whatever can just enable the filter, and those who want to engage in pointless bickering with anonymous users wil be free do so in their little playpen. Everybody wins (except those wasting their time, but that's entirely their problem).

    I saw in a post from jarinok that there's currently no Perl programmer on the team, and that this severely limits what the team can do with the site. In that case, I'd suggest that the very first order of business should be to find a competent Perl programmer.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by pkrasimirov on Saturday July 09 2022, @04:50PM (1 child)

    by pkrasimirov (3358) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09 2022, @04:50PM (#1259192)

    First I have to admit I did not read all the above posts and threads in full. I read some and few had insightful views. I admire the people who can express themselves eloquently and with good grammar while contributing to the world of ideas.

    Second big kudos to janrinok and all those who hold the line. I thank you because you do it for me. You do it also for all others but I value it from my point of view and it is a treasure. I have to say I don't believe in communities. For me there are persons and their actions (and inactions). Space won't fit and memory won't serve well enough if I try to list here all the good people who helped me one way or another via this site. Mind you, for free. Free as in beer and free as in speech, free as in a person!

    Lastly I want to give my opinion on the situation. I will try to be short but unfortunately I tend to overcomplicate stuff so be warned, a disclaimer here. So what are we fighting for? Free speech they say. What is this? IMHO it means freedom to voice own opinion without the fear of being forced to silence as a consequence, one way or another. So here stand two points which are somehow always ignored in the discussions.

    One is "own opinion". For me it means if you believe in something and want to voice it, you should be welcome to do so, no matter how wrong, unethical or shameful someone believes it is. If that is the case the person sharing thoughts would be interested in feedback and actively searching it, potentially analysing it and progress their view. This is the primary reason why free speech should exist. The deviation is if someone expresses a view they don't actually have. That is NOT free speech, that is propaganda or psyop. It is a subversive activity to manipulate others, to excert control over their minds and therefore their desires and actions. In my view this is a crime. Some proud minds tend to overlook the graveness of the problem but they fell victim to these smears first.

    Another significant point is "fear of being forced to silence". It really does not matter by whom, how or why. Is there a chance of me being faced with negative perspecives for my attempt to compose a sentence, I might very well spare the effort and move to something else, say watching porn or something pleasurable alike. I mean why bother? Often people voicing some unpopular beliefs have the impression of being misunderstood as a whole, by the society or majority of group, being themselves some outcast elite too high in wizdom to be justfully appreciated by the masses. This self-perception reinforces their behaviour and brings much needed sweet feeling of superiority over others. Add to that potential discomfort of negative feedback due to expressed opinion and their speech is skipped at all. Of course I'm exaggregating here but only to illustrate the point to the extreme. People thresholds vary on when they "give up" speaking to strangers on the Internet but the point stands. Meaning there must be ideally zero fear before speaking. The reason is to deter as fewer people as possible from speaking up their mind. Deviation from "free speech" is when someone is being silenced by a mob or even a single noisy person but that is not being seen as silencing. It matters not if said person has any additional technical measures available for the task, it can only take one disgust of the poster and they are gone. But the default view is that is not a violation of the freedom to speak if it is not done by admin. Some places attempted to enforce this (in "safe space") but the actual effects can be the opposite.

    SoylentNews is far from these high-bar problems. We have a rather pretty trivial one: somebody or two on the Internet abuses the website. Well, I'd say get them banned by technical means. Not technically possible? Well, there are many clever people around here, maybe someone can help it. Instead we soar into philosophical questions of freedom and existence. I say first solve the mundane ones.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @04:12AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @04:12AM (#1260033)

      " This is the primary reason why free speech should exist. The deviation is if someone expresses a view they don't actually have. That is NOT free speech, that is propaganda or psyop."

      Wrong. You sound like someone from a country that has so repressed the artists in that country that citizens like you can't grasp how kick ass an album "Gun's n Roses - Lies" was.

      Part of the LIBERATING beauty of the ability to create art with Free Speech protection is the ability to say /anything/ and provoke any recipient of the art to question "what does the artist really mean here? does the artist really believe that in this way? perhaps in a slightly different way?". Then recipients of the art often discuss those questions amongst themselves, and a small percentage of the time with the artist themself. As a result of this LIBERTY society is better off.

      But here I am stupid enough to reply to a psyop probably generated algorithmically by an AI. Or not.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by quietus on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:03PM

    by quietus (6328) on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:03PM (#1259199) Journal

    I checked the wikipedia entry for Slash [wikipedia.org] [slashcode], the software that drives this site.

    In its description, the following was stated about Soylentnews:

    SoylentNews is a fork of Slashdot using a 2009 fork of the Slashdot engine, it covers political extremists.

    I've removed the part about covering political extremists but, as I am not an official wikipedia editor, it would be best if somebody with the right credentials would keep an eye on this.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by crotherm on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:14PM

    by crotherm (5427) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:14PM (#1259204)

    I am a long time member, fan and reader, but post rarely. I lost my taste for participating in
    extended online discussions long ago in the usenet days for various reasons. :p

    Now on this site you have some users who want to, basically, piss in the pool by forcing their dispute
    on everyone else, not to mention the admins who are doing this for free.

    Running a service like this takes time and work, I know, I have war stories too. :) One of the
    things about this community is that I would guess that there are a lot of "old" folks like me
    here. One would think that we would have gotten past that stage in life when yelling at a
    computer screen seems like a fun thing to do. Or ruining a cool place because, because what?,
    "feelings" or a misunderstood phrase? The users should be thanking the admins, trying to make their
    tasks easier. Users should not be using this fine web site as a medium for their love/hate relationship.

    Sheesh! It really is that simple. It is always the users fault. "Where's my LART at!" :)

    AC is a very important feature, one that is rare and harder to find, especially real anonymity.
    After reading a sample of the offending posts, it is hard to fathom what is going on inside the mind of
    these posters. I just don't see any fun in their endeavor. So unless these people start acting like
    they even understand the word "honor" or "respect", I would say to limit AC posting to logged in
    accounts until another solution or software fix is made available.

    Thanks for all your work!

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:19PM (8 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:19PM (#1259206)

    Problem 1:

    There are abundant trolls, spammers, sockpuppeting cliques and generic dicks.

    Problem 2:

    Freedom of speech requires anonymous and pseudonymous options.

    Problem 3:

    The current codebase does not allow for a coherent response to anonymous trolling or spammers.

    Problem 4:

    The current codebase is a pain to maintain and adapt, to the point of being infeasible.

    In other words, you're trapped on a roof of a house while the water rises. You are at a local maximum, but it's proving untenable.

    The answer, by inspection of the current constraints, can only be to abandon the current local maximum in favour of an identifiable greater maximum. This addresses problems 3 and 4, so that you can formulate a coherent response to problems 1 and 2.

    Let's look at how to do this in a coordinated, coherent fasion:

    You must have a codebase that you can maintain. If you cannot adapt the current one, you must establish a new one. Period. There is no alternative. This implies that you must get together a coder, or team of coders, capable of doing coding fit for the web. However, this also offers you the freedom to select an appropriate language and platform for maintainability, as well as coding standards. In other words, rather than being hobbled by technical decisions of CmdrTaco dating back to when beowulf clusters were new and exciting, you can make a stable, respectable selection with rapid development and a deep developer bench in mind. I recommend Python2.x.

    You also require an appropriate database (in the broad sense) back end that will enable you to back up, restore and otherwise manage a vast range of comments and comment parameters. Comments can actually exist as flat files in a file hierarchy; modern file systems can handle vastly heavier loads. The parameters can be efficiently handled within an RDBS such as MariaDB - again, a tool with massive depth of skilled people in the world. If you don't like that, Postgres will do fine. I might even suggest a sober appraisal of SQLite3, on the grounds that the actual DB traffic really isn't that high compared to an ecommerce site or other serious transaction-handling tool.

    OS-wise I'd recommend something from the BSD family, for reasons of stability and minimal drama. There is no reason to look much further. OpenBSD might even be a good choice.

    With the above in mind, the next question is how to structure the resulting code with the intention of solving, or at least mitigating problems 1 and 2.

    While spammers might be readily identified and called out by common consent, this also allows for the development of cliques, sockpuppets and groupthink. This means that a unified rating system is unsuitable. The implication is that you require a system that allows for, at least, a set of overlapping sets of users forming a rather messy Venn diagram. They can not, and should not be required to speak for each other.

    The implication is that whatever rating, filtration or censorship system you put in place must accommodate multiple different points of view applying to the same discussion. To put it another way, every user (or pseudonymous identity) requires its own rating list, however that's implemented. Whether or not you enable users to use each other's viewpoints, or a sort of aggregate viewpoint, is up to you. It shouldn't be a terribly difficult feature to implement.

    As for implementation on the back end/interface I recomment straightforward CGI with reasonably intelligent input filtering as being both robust and friendly to text browsers. This is a big feature of the current codebase that it would be a shame to abandon. In practice, while javascript sounds all groovy, it tends to introduce many problems that a small developer group doesn't want to have to tackle.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by deimtee on Sunday July 10 2022, @05:12AM (5 children)

      by deimtee (3272) on Sunday July 10 2022, @05:12AM (#1259372) Journal

      In other words, you're trapped on a roof of a house while the water rises. You are at a local maximum, but it's proving untenable.

      The answer, by inspection of the current constraints, can only be to abandon the current local maximum in favour of an identifiable greater maximum. This addresses problems 3 and 4, so that you can formulate a coherent response to problems 1 and 2.

      Nah, there's an easier option. Pull the plug on the spammers and send them down the drain.
      Posting with a pseudonymous account and ticking the AC box is just as effective as being a true AC. If you think anyone with the resources to track you down through that is coming after you, then you have much bigger problems than staying anon on SN.

      --
      If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @04:14PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @04:14PM (#1259497)

        Thus proving that you either ignored or didn't understand the clique problem.

        Go back, read again, try again.

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by janrinok on Sunday July 10 2022, @05:28PM (3 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 10 2022, @05:28PM (#1259516) Journal

          You, on the other hand, seem to be trying to fix an entirely different problem.

          So we just rewrite the code, introduce a totally different moderation system to handle 'cliques', change the DB because for some unstated reason mysql will not do, but mariadb, postgresql or even Sqlite should be fine, and you recommend a BSD because, well just because.

          Give me a few hours and I'll see what our pink unicorns can come up with.

          You tried this yesterday evening on IRC - you got the same reception as I recall.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @06:43PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @06:43PM (#1259548)

            Fine, use the same servers, DB, whatever. Find a perlmonkey of unsurpassed genius and creativity - and yes, the reception was clearly demonstrative of the fact that you can't see what's right in front of your face and has been for ages, and getting worse for all the years that I've been pointing it out - in fact, even since before soylent was stood up. The breakage in the system was obvious from the slashdot days.

            At some point one has to conclude that one has crossed the bar from incomprehension, over the currents of wilful blindness and incompetence into active support of the pathology.

            The IRC logs are an almost poetically clear demonstration of this. You made your bed, don't expect any sympathy from me while you complain about the lumps in it.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @11:09PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @11:09PM (#1259604)

              Standard schitzo waffle where you decry everyone else's inability to see a problem, but yet you can never seem to explain exactly what that problem is.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday July 11 2022, @04:46AM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @04:46AM (#1259654) Journal
                Indeed. The poster probably has posted this fare numerous times. But not even a slight attempt at justifying that argument. That's a lot of work to do nothing.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Sunday July 10 2022, @06:51PM (1 child)

      The current codebase is a pain to maintain and adapt, to the point of being infeasible.

      You seem to have given this a lot of thought. That's great and your suggestions have merit.

      A couple of questions:

      1. Who wil pay for the coder/team of coders you mention?

      2. In lieu of (1), are you offering to write that code? If so, I'll look forward to seeing an article on SN highlighting the software repo where such code exists.

      I don't speak for anyone else, but I wholeheartedly encourage you to act on your suggestions and either pay for such a new codebase and/or write it yourself (with anyone else you can sucker^W convince to help).

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @04:18AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @04:18AM (#1260034)

        "1. Who wil pay for the coder/team of coders you mention?"

        I'm not the mentioner referred to here, but as I mentioned in a comment 'feature bounty', I'm definitely willing to put up at least $10 towards a feature bounty fund (for the time delayed no-login-ac commenting permission feature at least).

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by hopdevil on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:35PM (15 children)

    by hopdevil (3356) on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:35PM (#1259209)

    The simple and probably only solution to this is require authentication for posts, even for ACs. I realize there are supposedly people that have a hard time with this, but there needs to be something to identify users within any system if you want to filter out bad actors. Free speech/freedom to express your views does NOT require anonymity.

    As it stands even ACs aren't exactly "anonymous" to the administrators of this site.. nor should they probably be. The site needs to protect itself, it is folly to not give yourself the tools to do the job.

    Requiring email + (username+password) backing AC posts doesn't really take away much more anonymity.. and to the readers, they won't know the difference.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:39PM (14 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:39PM (#1259211)

      Free speech/freedom to express your views does NOT require anonymity.

      The Russians being jailed now for the views they expressed online in 2014, would strongly disagree.

      • (Score: 2) by turgid on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:51PM

        by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:51PM (#1259214) Journal

        This is a very important point.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @06:51PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @06:51PM (#1259233)

        Even in the "free west", people have lost their jobs for things they tweeted ten years prior.

        Back in the Usenet days, I did a foolish thing. I became a newsgroup FAQ maintainer. (that probably isn't the term they used then, but I'm old now and memory fails me on those kinds of details) You'd think that would be a fairly simple job. Alas, no, for the content of an FAQ was the subject of many a long-running shit storm. Being the maintainer, I was at the center of the storm. Worse, I'd used my primary email address for my posting, and eventually someone called my home wanting to "discuss" the FAQ. Yes, they'd tracked me down. I immediately quit as maintainer, quit the group, changed email and phone numbers, etc. My personal line had been crossed. Looking back I am just glad that unlike today, a person could get out and move on from such things.

        I said that so you'd understand where I'm coming from when I say this: I will never, ever sign up for an account here. I post AC everywhere, or not at all. These days that means pretty much not at all, but I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with no longer posting here. Other than my sparkling wit, I admit I contribute more noise than signal.

        If y'all need to close down AC posting here, because of the asshole troll, so be it. This place will have fewer comments without AC posting, but you don't absolutely need them. Hell, half the users don't read the ACs anyway, so what's the point? This place, however, can not do without the staff. The needs of the staff should take precedence. There aren't enough staff here to babysit this lot of raving loonies even without having to deal with trolls, so if the cost of letting ACs post is too great on the staff, then dump AC.

        Yes, without the input from AC, this site might slowly die. But if you keep AC in a way that lets the trolls in, the site will quickly die instead.

        You're in a Kobayashi Maru. Best of luck.

        • (Score: 2) by hopdevil on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:49PM

          by hopdevil (3356) on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:49PM (#1259272)

          I appreciate your insight, because as an AC member of the community your perspective will help identify what a good solution would be.

          That said, I never suggested closing down AC posting, just requiring some form of auth behind it. There are lots of patterns that could be used, but one of the major problems is who will program it.

      • (Score: 2) by hopdevil on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:52PM (10 children)

        by hopdevil (3356) on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:52PM (#1259273)

        How does requiring some form of authentication to post AC help the Russians jail you?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @09:25PM (9 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @09:25PM (#1259280)

          Easily; the personally identifiable information in the account which is linked to the logged-in imitation-AC posts.
          And if you really think jailing dissenters is exclusive to the Russians, you are far too naive to survive what is coming. Deep economy crashes do spark witch hunts, if only for the mundane reason of divvying up the witches' worldly goods.

          • (Score: 2) by hopdevil on Saturday July 09 2022, @11:12PM (7 children)

            by hopdevil (3356) on Saturday July 09 2022, @11:12PM (#1259303)

            What personally identifiable information is available to anyone other than the admins of the site? The Russians or whoever don't have that information.
            Are you suggesting there could be a subpoena for it? There are ways to deal with that.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @11:42PM (6 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @11:42PM (#1259313)

              What personally identifiable information is available to anyone other than the admins of the site?

              All of it. EVERY site that stores personally identifiable information worth stealing, IS having it stolen in a short order.

              Are you suggesting there could be a subpoena for it? There are ways to deal with that.

              Those ways, even when available, do cost money that the site does not have, and that the admins would not spend to protect a "deplorable" even if they had it.
              Given the "progressive" agenda being pushed here, I even foresee them proactively reporting such, for some wrongthink. All this "oh horrible spammer" drama should have some purpose beyond mere griefing, should it not?

              • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @07:33AM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @07:33AM (#1259398)

                At least here in the US conservatives are the ones pushing fascism and thoughtcrime style politics, but for some strange reason their gullible supporters have swallowed the lies that all the bad is from liberals. What a joke you people are.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:37AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:37AM (#1259419)

                  Meanwhile, Trump and Runsaway are carrying water for the Russians, and probably passing on information, as well.

                • (Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @10:53AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @10:53AM (#1259431)

                  How do you like your Bidenflation? Eat it while it's fresh, there will be second, third, and tenth helpings aplenty.

              • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday July 10 2022, @07:38AM (2 children)

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday July 10 2022, @07:38AM (#1259401) Journal

                Sounds like projection to me, Bubba Jay. This is a very obvious "this is what I would do if I were in power" post, underlain by the common "conservative" assumption that everyone else thinks like, and is just as morally bankrupt as, you yourself!

                --
                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @10:51AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @10:51AM (#1259430)

                  Everything "sounds like projection" to you. Having never mentally grown out of kindergartner stage is what makes people like you into lefties.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by NotSanguine on Sunday July 10 2022, @06:59PM

            Easily; the personally identifiable information in the account which is linked to the logged-in imitation-AC posts.
            And if you really think jailing dissenters is exclusive to the Russians, you are far too naive to survive what is coming. Deep economy crashes do spark witch hunts, if only for the mundane reason of divvying up the witches' worldly goods.

            This being (primarily) a science/tech site, perhaps a technical solution to your concerns would be appropriate. (sorry, this isn't a car analogy) In fact, several comments have already addressed this:

            1. Create a throwaway email address (Protonmail, spamdecoy, etc.), presumably through TOR and/or a VPN;
            2. Register an account using that throwaway email address, and confirm the address (again via TOR and/or a VPN);
            3. Connect to SN via TOR and/or a VPN;

            Now, no one can track you even if you're logged in.

            Estimated time (in actual work) to effect a solution like that, 10-15 minutes (perhaps less).

            Please note that I'm not telling you (or anyone else) what to do. Rather, I'm addressing the specific concern you mentioned with a potential solution.

            Make of that what you will.

            --
            No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by maggotbrain on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:51PM

    by maggotbrain (6063) on Saturday July 09 2022, @05:51PM (#1259215)

    I have like visiting this tiny little internet cul-de-sac.There have been some interesting articles and conversations that I don't find elsewhere. Unfortunately this all-consuming AC topic is drowning that out. Makes me almost nostalgic for a long-lost pre-eternal September.

    Sorry to see the staff/volunteers have to deal with such vitriol and hassle and childish internet pouting from those angry former(?) users.

    FWIW, my $0.02 would be to only allow posting as an AC with a registered(if throwaway) e-mail. I'd like to see the community get back to being a community and not the troll-fighting brigade it's been recently.

    Whatever your decision, thank you for all of your hard work keeping this place running.

  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @06:39PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @06:39PM (#1259225)

    These efforts have been ignored and do not seem to be of any interest to the AC community. Likewise I will not continue this effort unless there is evidence that it is wanted.

    As I mostly check SN via RSS, this effort was completely missed by me. I see that it is also not in the recent journals sidebar, presumably due to lack of karma. Had it been more visible, or had I been following these post more closely, I would have tried to use it.

    Thanks for trying, sincerely. AC posting, for me, is all about lowering the "action potential". Having to click through logins (or worse, captchas) before I can post is often enough to dissuade me from posting, and I have multiples of devices that I might be on at any given time, all of which are persistently on private browsing or full clear on exit. I get the feeling this already a forgone decision, so thanks to everyone for providing me a second internet "home". Fuck beta.

    --Previously known as Sulla's AC Friend

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @06:40PM (18 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @06:40PM (#1259226)

    Dear Jan,

    On the off-chance that your inquiry here is honest, here is my honest and unencrypted reply:

    1) "This is why we can't have nice things" - I keep hearing this and so you should conclude that truly anonymous posting is, in fact, a nice thing, and if SN loses it, it will be a grievous loss.

    2) I don't care about apk or aristarchus postings. Your obsessing over them seems to be an over-reaction. The thing that does drive me away from this site is the obscene political slander, and the vindictive moderations I get when some people "can't handle the truth".

    3) Social interaction cannot succeed without spiritual maturity which involves love, forgiveness, overlooking of faults, selflessness and dedication to a unifying ideal. A Christian would call this "loving one another the way Jesus has loved us". A Moslem would call this "submitting ourselves to God". A Bahai would call this "possessing a pure, kindly and radiant heart". Whenever the administrators and the contributers to this site violate these principles, toxicity ensues. This is the root of the problem. Of course, reasonable people might reasonably disagree with my diagnosis. I'm pretty sure they are wrong.

    4) In short: banning true AC posting will kill SN, but the world will not stop turning. It will only be a bleaker world.

    -nostyle

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:04PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:04PM (#1259239)

      https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524 [historynewsnetwork.org]

      Are you quite old? Moslem is a shitty spelling to use.

      "The thing that does drive me away from this site is the obscene political slander, and the vindictive moderations I get when some people "can't handle the truth"."

      Do you consider my correction "obscene political slander" or are you mature enough to update your worldview and work towards a more pure, kindly and radiant heart?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:49PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:49PM (#1259252)

        I find nothing obscene, political or slanderous in your pointing out how the spelling of a word has morphed over decades. You do present the aspect of a fault-finder, however. If this should lead to fewer disputes amongst men, I will not object.

        Yes, I am old and near dead. And I peruse the Qur'an daily, among many other scriptures.

        Who will forgive an old man his mistakes and foibles? I am told that God loveth those who forgive.

        -nostyle

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:43PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:43PM (#1259269)

          Thank you, if only more users could stomach a little criticism. It is rarely fun, but after a few times most people realize it isn't a big deal and doesn't make them look weak. The opposite really!

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:57PM (10 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:57PM (#1259274)

      I'm betting the site received a No Such Letter from a No Such Agency, and the owners are trying to appear to be big men, and thereby failing to be a big men by taking a stand for the freezer peaches.

      I'd agree people who vindictively mod definitely lack spirituality and compassion. It's such a petty thing to do.

      I've noticed with the Yah-way cults that they define submitting to Yah-way, as submitting to the high priest of Yah-way who always seems to want to lock women in menstrual huts and stone homosexual, gender non-conforming people, and of course sex workers to death.

      I have a proposal, should the admins choose to accept it. Anybody should be able to publish something we could call a moderation stream. Or a moderation overlay. Other users can subscribe to 0, 1, or many moderation streams. This would of course eliminate anonymous moderation. This would solve the problem of retaliation modding and mod bomb defense squads, because there would be literally no point to these things. I would simply unsubscribe from a moderation stream with nothing but flotsam and jetsam.

      Finally, Aristarchus must be given his account back. #FreeAristarchus

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @09:20PM (7 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @09:20PM (#1259277)

        While we’re speculating, I’m guessing JR and some others with admin bits are aiming to “privatize” the site for their profit.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @10:40PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @10:40PM (#1259296)

          They can't compete with Gab and Truth Social. Even the Fediverse has better marketing than this place will ever have. I don't think they can profit. If there's no such NSL, it'll just be a moose lodge for a few hard right drinking buddies.

        • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:21AM (5 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:21AM (#1259415) Journal

          Nope! It hadn't even crossed my mind. I am only one administrator - I am not on the Board which is legally in charge but they kindly let us get on with it. I have no access to the site's finances. Our accountant - who we have to employ by law - handles some of those aspects along with a member of the Board. All we do is show on the front page how the subscriptions that we receive are mounting up - or not! We do not directly handle them. They go from paypal or somesuch direct to our bank account - and I don't even know where that is. I haven't got direct write access to the database - only read access. I have to use the same GUI as every other editor to access stories, comments, journals etc. I haven't a clue how to communicate directly with the servers at Linode, nor have I the necessary permissions to do so. I don't know what half the packages that we are running on our servers actually do.

          So by all means continue your unsubstantiated speculations. I can (and do!) laugh them off - but you are determined to undermine the site to achieve some perverse aim so I do not expect you to change what you are doing.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:57AM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:57AM (#1259422)

            There's nothing wrong with being a moose lodge. Just stop pretending soystain is something else.

            • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @06:37PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @06:37PM (#1259545)

              omg lol

              -1, I cant heer u lalalalalala

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:51PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:51PM (#1259570)

              There's nothing wrong with being a moose lodge. Just stop pretending soystain is something else.

              Well, as long as it is not a seriously paranoid moose lodge. Nothing more dangerous than a moose with a persecution complex.

              So by all means continue your unsubstantiated speculations. I can (and do!) laugh them off - but you are determined to undermine the site to achieve some perverse aim so I do not expect you to change what you are doing.

              janrinok not seeking to privatize, monetize, and cash-out-itize. Some AC, on the other hand, is determined to achieve perverse aims. Sounds like that Battle of the Century! Is there nothing that can be done, to grant us Peace in our Time?

              Who is this masked AC? Enquiring Minds want to know!

              aristarchus

              • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday July 11 2022, @12:19AM (1 child)

                by acid andy (1683) on Monday July 11 2022, @12:19AM (#1259614) Homepage Journal

                So when are you gonna get back to the philosophy then?

                --
                If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @01:24AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @01:24AM (#1259992)

                  Most of the philosophy was in journal entries, "X for Soylentils". Being all perma-banned, and whatnot, can no longer post to my journal, or post at all. But there are some interesting topics around recently, like the ethics of disagreement, and how to censor people on the internets.

                  aristarchus

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @11:39PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @11:39PM (#1259310)

        Maybe Elon Musk could offer to buy the site. That would put it out of its misery.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:46AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @12:46AM (#1259335)

          Musk would never be keen to buy a site with 99% fake accounts.

    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:37AM (3 children)

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:37AM (#1259414) Journal

      There will still be anonymous posting.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:14PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @08:14PM (#1259563)

        To be clear here, by "true AC posting", I meant "non-logged-in AC posting". From the point of view of privacy, post-fixing an AC identity to the post of a logged-in user is sure to fail (or be traceable) when servers are compromised or seized. Or maybe I am just paranoid.

        -nostyle

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:33PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @09:33PM (#1259581)

          ...when servers are compromised or seized

          Doesn't even take that much. One of last-weeks iterations of this eternal train wreck said that — ahem — "well, you trust the teller at the bank, so you should trust... blah-blah-blah." No, we don't. The banks don't trust the tellers; the tellers don't trust the banks. Find somebody without an agenda, and then we can talk about how secure your ID is, here.

          Forty-Seven years, huh?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @11:48PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @11:48PM (#1259608)

            Give me a ping, Vasili. One ping only, please

            -Captain Ramius, The Hunt for Red October

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Aurean on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:18PM

    by Aurean (4924) on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:18PM (#1259243)

    This is a solid move against forces working to destroy the site/community for whatever their reasons are.

    The observations listed indicate that there are people who are operating in bad faith - fuck 'em.

    Malice is not to be tolerated.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by crm114 on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:59PM

    by crm114 (8238) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 09 2022, @07:59PM (#1259253)

    I decided to reply to the original post, but if you look through the replies, I would like to start with a post from anubi:

    “But it's not just here. I see infrastructure destruction taking place everywhere. Seems like a Biblical thing ( actually, I think it is, for I seem to lack any insight to explain what I see going on in the world today, especially politics. )
    We have a very unique thing here.”

    Here is your Bible quote:
    You cite KJV; let’s use that: Daniel 2. Specifically Daniel 2:33 - “His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.” (TL;DR, it talks about world powers from Nebuchanezzars’s day to our time.) Something has happened to society in general. Like trying to mix iron and clay.

    I see janrinok as the clay: “Hey, can we all get along, just give a little?” The (unnamed trolls) as iron. After many conversations about this, one person summed it up like this: “you have free speech… as long as it agrees with mine.” Something /has/ changed. We used to be able to agree to disagree. That is gone.

    Back to the subject: posting as AC.

    I’m in USA, so I will use an USA example. Life in the real world:

    Joe wants to protest X. Joe leaves his PII at home (driver’s license, credit cards, etc.) Protest. He does something that is a felony. He drives home. There are cameras that caught his face, they have video of him getting into his car, and they trace the license plate of the car to his home. They have a face and an address. Joe is going to get prosecuted.

    My point is if we switch to we only allow logged in users to post, it is no different from real life. Joe wants to be anonymous? Post as AC. And be nice. But know that in this community, you commit a felony, you can be tracked down and prosecuted… just like any other (real life) community.

    Not posting as AC, because I appreciate what you admins are doing, and LOVE the transparency.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:11PM (4 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:11PM (#1259259)

    If I can't post AC I won't bother posting at all, not that I post often anyway. Sucks that this world is full of assholes intent on ruining existence for everyone. Goodbye Soylent. Been slowly going downhill here since MDC left us.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @10:32PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @10:32PM (#1259294)
      You'll still be able to post AC, you'll just have to login in to your account before you so it. If that's too much trouble for you then I don't know what to tell you.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @12:30AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @12:30AM (#1259617)

        You'll still be able to post AC, you'll just have to login in to your account before you so it. If that's too much trouble for you then I don't know what to tell you.

        And the "spammers" won't create throwaway accounts? You can keep your doctor!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @01:58AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @01:58AM (#1260005)

          And the "spammers" won't create throwaway accounts?

          There's no such thing as absolute security. Raise the cost of an attack and you'll diminish its impact.
          there's no Nirvana, stop dealing in absolutes, your life will be easier and happier.

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @01:34AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2022, @01:34AM (#1259344)

      Same. No idea why not just ban the schizo attackers and add a proof of work for AC posting like a few sites do. Bans would get some innocent ACs too, but it's better to sacrifice a few than all. Also since the attackers are insane maybe making ACs write something like "I swear hosts files suck" before posting could make them go ruin someplace else.

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:34PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:34PM (#1259266)

    Just do it already. Alter the comments table UID column NOT NULL.

    All attempts to negotiate are insufficient. We are the AC. We do not forgive. We do not forget. We are legion. #WeAreAristarchus

    What remains interesting is the show the big man has to put on before doing the thing he wants to do.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:47PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @08:47PM (#1259270)

      Whatever spammer.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @10:58PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09 2022, @10:58PM (#1259301)

        The negotiation is pointless. If you accept AC comments, and if it's not APK, it'll be something else. I call it the "internet background radiation."

        This site was founded on the basis that AC posting was worth seeing the internet background radiation. It was founded on the basis that no accounts would ever be banned, not even Ethanol_Fueled, who was famously banned from the green site.

        Don't get me wrong. It's their site and they can do what they wish with it.

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