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posted by janrinok on Wednesday July 13 2022, @06:32AM   Printer-friendly

After experiencing extensive spamming, ad-hominem attacks, and trolling it became necessary to protect the site by preventing all Anonymous Coward (AC) comments by anyone who was not logged in. This was a reluctant measure but it proved to be 99.9% effective. It was however, far from ideal. It partially isolated many of the responsible ACs who contribute regularly to the site and provide a valuable input to many of our discussions. They are still able to use journals for posting as the editors of SoylentNews have no control over the content of journals or the comments made in them.

I sought an alternative solution and provided access to some of the stories on the front page and marked them as AC Friendly. I had hoped by demonstrating to those abusing the site that there was a simple solution that they would perhaps cease, or at least return to previously manageable levels. Unfortunately this was not to be. The abuse restarted almost immediately and has continued in every AC Friendly story that has been published. It has clearly demonstrated that this isn't a case of the abusers defending free speech or any other laudable and justifiable aim but simply an attempt to prevent the majority of the community from holding any form of discussion at all. I am not continuing the AC Friendly stories on the main page with the sole exception of this Meta story.

I next tried to switch the attempts to include our AC community around by providing stories from the front page initially to my own journal, but subsequently to the journal of a new account named 'AC Friendly'. This was rather labour intensive and was not something that I could continue to do in the long term. These efforts have been ignored and do not seem to be of any interest to the AC community. Likewise I will not continue this effort unless there is evidence that it is wanted.

There are many perfectly understandable reasons for wishing to post comments as an Anonymous Coward. This was recognised when the original Slashdot code was written and provision was made for such individuals in the software. It is a straightforward matter to log in to the site and then automatically post as AC from then on. This both protects the site itself and those using it. If your justification is that you do not trust the staff then I must question why you would want to remain on the site.

Free speech is an essential part of our ethos but it is necessary to realise that free speech and anonymity are not necessarily related. We want people to be able to express their views without fear of harassment, abuse, or unfair moderation. Only by doing so can we truly claim to have free speech. It means that even those with whom we strongly disagree have the right to express their opinions. Subsequent attempts to argue against those views should not involve any form of harassment of the individual making them. Any attempt to prevent someone from expressing their views is directly counter to the very concept of 'free speech'.

Likewise, anonymity is something to be valued. Attempts to unmask either named or anonymous accounts is unacceptable to this site's administration and will not be tolerated. Those who publish information that appears credible to us must be deterred from continuing by whatever means are necessary. We cannot verify every claim made regarding the personal information of a community member and we must therefore assume that it is has some basis in truth and is an attempt at doxing. It does not matter where the information stated in the claim originates or whether it has been stated on this site or elsewhere previously. If it has the potential to unmask a community member it will be treated as doxing. The site will do all it can to protect community members. We are also fortunate that in the 8 years we have been operating we have only had one account that felt it was an acceptable thing to do. That account has been closed.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the toxic environment that has developed on the site has cost us numerous valued community members - both staff and regular contributors of submissions and comments. It cannot be allowed to continue. There is also no doubt that there is a straightforward and simple solution, and that is to prevent AC participation without the creation of an account. The software was designed to do this and it is wasted effort trying to find alternatives when it is unnecessary to do so.

There has been quite a bit of discussion over the last week or so. We have had a former community member (who was also once a member of staff) return to the site with his own story. Initially he chose to remain anonymous but subsequently decided to continue his comments under his username. I encourage you all to read the link given and the subsequent comments given in reply. I am very grateful that has taken the effort to explain why he has did what he has done and I welcome him back to our community if he choses to stay. As part of my reply to him I made the following statement:

It is vitally important that everyone is able to express their own point of view without harassment or intimidation or even unfair moderation. We do not all agree with each other. That is the same in any community. But by full, frank and honest discussion we can at least understand each others point of view and possibly identify potential solutions. The freedom of expression is still essential on the site - but it can only exist if we can ensure that it can be conducted in a suitable environment.

I stand by that statement. Since that comment was published I have received other views and experiences of the toxicity of our site from a significant number of individuals, including regular community members and both current and former staff. Quite simply, if we do not change then in all likelihood we will not survive much longer. It is not too late to make the necessary changes but time is running out.

I promised you that no changes would be made to how the site operates without first giving you all the chance to express your own opinions. But you have to decide now which path you want the site to follow. This cannot be a simple vote - as an extreme example we have no way of verifying that AC comments are not the result of a single person, or if some sock-puppets are still active on the site. Everyone has the right to be heard. However, let me point out a few rules:

  • Any attempt to disrupt this Meta by spamming, ad-hominem attacks or trolling abuse will count as someone expressing an opinion that we should insist on accounts for all those wishing to post as AC. If anyone thinks that by abusing the site they will be helping their case they are mistaken. However, such actions will clearly show to the community that those who have been making the most noise about being prevented from expressing themselves are not actually fighting for free speech, but rather they are determined to prevent you from exercising your right to it.
  • It will be pointless to keep repeating the same views as an AC. We cannot separate them. You want to be anonymous, you choose to have the account ID #1, and this, unfortunately, is a direct consequence to that decision.
  • All views will be collated and then a decision will be made based upon them by the staff. This will include the SN Board who may accept that decision, but who have the right to choose the path that the site eventually takes. It may not be the decision that any of us want.

This is an important issue. It cannot be a simple vote but I encourage as many people as possible to express their opinions. It might be the last chance for you to do so. The Meta will stay active for several days to at least mid-week - but if it is abused excessively then it will be taken down and we will be forced to make a decision base on whatever views we already have or can get from elsewhere. I will endeavour to move the Meta in the story queue so that it remains on the front page. Many of our community log on at different times of the day or only on specific days. I would like to give everyone a chance to see the Meta story and to make their views known.

This is your opportunity - please do not waste it.

[Ed's Comment: See bold text - warning 2022-07-10 12:36 UTC]

 
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  • (Score: 2) by Snospar on Monday July 11 2022, @07:44AM

    by Snospar (5366) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @07:44AM (#1259694)

    As it looks like the only available option to deal with these issues then I have no problem with forcing people to login if they want to comment - with the ability to post as AC at that point. I usually comment logged in anyway but sometimes use the AC checkbox. As stated already, creating a throw away e-mail and a login is not too onerous a task if people want to stay as anonymous as possible.

    Hopefully this will fix the problem and drive the troublemakers away. Also hope we don't lose too many other AC's in the process.

    --
    Huge thanks to all the Soylent volunteers without whom this community (and this post) would not be possible.
  • (Score: 2) by stretch611 on Monday July 11 2022, @08:36AM (10 children)

    by stretch611 (6199) on Monday July 11 2022, @08:36AM (#1259699)

    After reading a lot of comments in this article, it appears to me as if there are far more people who are willing to allow AC posts by logged in users only.

    Of course, I could be wrong, especially due to my selection bias that I have because that is my opinion as well.

    If you truly want to see actual results and numbers, run the question of AC posting as a poll.

    But, IMHO, unless I am reading the comments wrong, I believe that you already have the answer that many people are willing to go along with Janrinok.

    And while there are a few people complaining about how they will never post again... I would rather lose a few now instead of losing everyone once they get fed up later. (I'd prefer not to lose any more, but that does not seem like a viable option at this point.)

    --
    Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday July 11 2022, @08:56AM (9 children)

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @08:56AM (#1259704) Journal

      Thanks for your thoughts.

      We did consider a poll but, as on at least on previous occasion, it is far too easy to game that method. And I also wanted to have the problems and views explained by both sides which a poll would not encourage. We also considered a traditional vote but the last time we did that it took incredible amounts of both time and effort. We have not got the resources to do that again. Today, like most other days, I am one of perhaps 2 administrators who will appear somewhere on here or IRC. Others have real lives, jobs and families and cannot spend hours or even days at a time trying to manage a website that some want to be unmanageable. They contribute when they can which is all we have ever asked of our volunteers.

      It is possible to understand and sympathise with the numerous diverse views being offered by the AC community. However, there are far few commenting that one might imagine at first glance and it is possible to correlate their views into a much smaller list by omitting duplication and removing those comments which are nothing to do with what we should do to resolve the problem.

      What is also required, as I said somewhere yesterday, are better stories, better administration, better participation, more staff, more determination to restore the site to what we had a few years back, and a better sense of community. I will endeavour to play whatever role I can but it not a problem than can be resolved by a single person and a slight change of rules. It is a problem that will require the whole community - unfortunately, perhaps, without the participation of the responsible ACs who have made a genuine and valued effort to support the site.

      • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @09:03AM (8 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @09:03AM (#1259705)

        So you are just going to do whatever you want, janrinok? Maybe you should introduce more whitespace, in the new Beta SoylentNews. It is De jevu all over again.

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by janrinok on Monday July 11 2022, @09:21AM (1 child)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @09:21AM (#1259710) Journal
          The entire reason for this discussion is to do what the community want. You seem to disagree with that concept.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @09:38AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @09:38AM (#1259711)

            Didn't you once say that whatever ship Ahab sails in, that ship should pay something extra on its insurance policy, just as though it were loaded with powder barrels aft and boxes of lucifers forward? Stop, now; didn't you say so?"

            Have ye seen the White Whale?

            Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, anonymous comment posting has temporarily been disabled. You can still login to post. However, if bad posting continues from your IP or Subnet that privilege could be revoked as well. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner or login and improve your posting. If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, please email admin@soylentnews.org with your MD5'd IPID and SubnetID, which are "05a5b1d2385380aae506d155b1183a3d" and "c923158445233f1244b2d0f869f4513f".

        • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday July 11 2022, @09:49AM (5 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @09:49AM (#1259715) Journal
          Deja Vu. The 'all over again' is redundant.
          • (Score: 3, Informative) by dalek on Monday July 11 2022, @10:03AM (2 children)

            by dalek (15489) on Monday July 11 2022, @10:03AM (#1259717)

            In fairness, this one is a famous quote from Yogi Berra [wikipedia.org], one of the greatest catchers in the history of baseball, and a fellow St. Louisan.

            Yogi Berra might have offered some advice for you about the future direction of this site: when you come to a fork in the road, take it.

            --
            THIS ACCOUNT IS PERMANENTLY CLOSED
            • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:47AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:47AM (#1260048)

              Janrinok is a Brit, no humor, no idea who Yogi Berra was. These are people who are bothered by Polish plumbers, after all!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @06:17AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @06:17AM (#1260055)

            That's why nobody goes here anymore. It's too...

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:02AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:02AM (#1260070)

              I am AC, but your post makes me yearn for mod points. Well played, Sir!

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Opportunist on Monday July 11 2022, @09:04AM (25 children)

    by Opportunist (5545) on Monday July 11 2022, @09:04AM (#1259707)

    Most people will be familiar with the paradox of tolerance [wikipedia.org]. What it means is that if you're tolerant of intolerance, intolerance will eventually prevail.

    The same is true for free speech. As we can already see on other online media, from Twitter to Reddit to YouTube and beyond, state actors are in an information war. Anyone who hasn't been offline the past 5 or even 10 years will have noticed that we are being bombarded with more than just questionable material, with dubious veracity or outright lies.

    Now, SN isn't Reddit. First, I'd dare say that the average reader here has an IQ above room temperature, unlike Reddit, and the site also isn't big enough for state actors to waste a lot of resources on it. That doesn by no means mean that we're "safe" from misinformation campaigns.

    The noble idea that truth will prevail in a truely free and open discussion because falsehoods will be called out and shamed is nice, but as has been demonstrated before, an illusion. You cannot counter agitation and populism with facts. People prefer to believe what they want to hear than anything they don't, no matter how much you can back up the latter with proof of veracity.

    Reddit and Twitter serve as a warning for what happens when you're a high profile webpage and don't bother moderating it, or rely on self moderation. With the difference that these pages are actually SO large that pure inertia keeps them going at this point. On either site, anyone who would have wanted to contribute to a meaningful discussion or provide interesting content has long left, with the occasional latecomer trying to actually provide something worthwhile. What's left is agitators, people cultivating their image, advertisers and trolls.

    Now, SN isn't that big to rival those two giants. We will probably, hopefully, be spared by the political agitators (aside from the occasional layman shill for one or the other POTUS candidate). Still, I come here for the interesting, meaningful exchange of ideas and positions. I want to engage in a debate with people who have a similar or even superior level of information on a topic. That's why I'm here. If all I get is trolls and agitators, there isn't much of a reason for me to come back here.

    And I dare assume that I'm not the only one.

    If you allow this to happen, all you have in the long run is yet another board that only exists for trolls and agitators. Because everyone else leaves.

    • (Score: 2, Disagree) by khallow on Monday July 11 2022, @01:20PM (24 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @01:20PM (#1259763) Journal

      Most people will be familiar with the paradox of tolerance. What it means is that if you're tolerant of intolerance, intolerance will eventually prevail.

      I'm familiar with it, but it's nonsense [soylentnews.org]. Tolerate the speech not the multiple breakings of the rules.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @08:15PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @08:15PM (#1259899)

        Ah yes, tolerate the speech except for the speech you don't like. What a perfect comment highlighting the cognitive distortion that seems so prevalent amongst conservative thinkers. Probably all the rightwing media whipping conservatives from side to side on multiple issues to the point where they can maintain diametrically opposing thoughts.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday July 12 2022, @03:39AM (2 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 12 2022, @03:39AM (#1260024) Journal

          Ah yes, tolerate the speech except for the speech you don't like. What a perfect comment highlighting the cognitive distortion that seems so prevalent amongst conservative thinkers.

          Where has that ever been relevant? I'm not conservative and I've never opposed speech I don't like.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:44PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:44PM (#1260264)

            You are conservative, maybe not Republican. That you cannot fathom the irony behind "100% free speech except when they break the rules we arbitrarily decided on" is pretty funny. The site rules cover "filth" so already there is a large subjective loophole that could be abused, so again your "tolerate the speech" is so out of touch. Also, if peoole should tilerate the speech then you should be ideologically against downmods, ya know, by definition of your own words.

            Good luck parsing the loguc.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday July 12 2022, @11:47PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 12 2022, @11:47PM (#1260336) Journal

              You are conservative, maybe not Republican.

              Again, that is false.

              That you cannot fathom the irony behind "100% free speech except when they break the rules we arbitrarily decided on" is pretty funny.

              I see you don't give any support for your alleged claims.

              The site rules cover "filth" so already there is a large subjective loophole that could be abused, so again your "tolerate the speech" is so out of touch.

              That is irrelevant. I believe we've established that this site can't function with APK-level misbehavior. I reluctantly accept that.

              Also, if peoole should tilerate the speech then you should be ideologically against downmods, ya know, by definition of your own words.

              I disagree. The only time I ever complained about downmods was when aristarchus modbombed my posts a year ago.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday July 12 2022, @02:12AM (9 children)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 12 2022, @02:12AM (#1260010) Journal

        It's not all roses, you know? bullshit asymmetry [wikipedia.org] is a thing.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday July 12 2022, @03:37AM (8 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 12 2022, @03:37AM (#1260023) Journal
          Well, my take is that the paradox of tolerance is part of that bullshit asymmetry.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:59AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:59AM (#1260051)

            My paradox is that I can just barely tolerate khallow. The boy is so, excitable! He just an excitable boy. [youtube.com]

          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday July 13 2022, @05:02AM (6 children)

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday July 13 2022, @05:02AM (#1260392) Journal

            Your take is bullshit, though.

            Look, it's elementary logic: A thing cannot be A and not-A at the same time. Tolerating intolerance is self-contradictory. You may as well ask for a married bachelor, a square circle, etc. Furthermore, in the realm of the real world (as opposed to formal logic), it's also self-destructive. You libertarians have a child's understanding of the word "freedom" and what it actually means.

            --
            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 13 2022, @11:51AM (5 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 13 2022, @11:51AM (#1260458) Journal
              The obvious rebuttal is that it's not the same party tolerating and intolerating at the same time. The contradiction/cognitive dissonance comes in when you are intolerating the intolerance. Then you are performing the very activity that you claimed to eschew.

              You libertarians have a child's understanding of the word "freedom" and what it actually means.

              And you have yet to show that freedom is even remotely under threat from the practice.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @07:24PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @07:24PM (#1260582)

                There's a tell, with khallow. Whenever he says "obvious rebuttal" he has been triggered.

              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday July 14 2022, @03:58AM (2 children)

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday July 14 2022, @03:58AM (#1260703) Journal

                There is no cognitive dissonance, any more than there is a contradiction in the GPL leading to more and freer software than the BSD license despite having more restrictions up front.

                Again: child's. Understanding. You "libertarians" are whiny crybabies in adult bodies. Shut up and let the actual grownups get on with business. Yes, I am intolerant of your stupidity, because in the long run, societies that don't run on similar stupidity fare better. Die mad :)

                --
                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 14 2022, @11:37AM (1 child)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday July 14 2022, @11:37AM (#1260777) Journal

                  There is no cognitive dissonance, any more than there is a contradiction in the GPL leading to more and freer software than the BSD license despite having more restrictions up front.

                  That's a non sequitur. I already pointed out the cognitive dissonance you refuse to acknowledge or perhaps even to understand.

                  Again: child's. Understanding. You "libertarians" are whiny crybabies in adult bodies. Shut up and let the actual grownups get on with business. Yes, I am intolerant of your stupidity, because in the long run, societies that don't run on similar stupidity fare better. Die mad :)

                  In other words, here's a great example of the bigotry and intolerance you bring to the table. One of many problems with your argument is that you aren't the actual grownup either. Someone else does that.

                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday July 15 2022, @09:09AM

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday July 15 2022, @09:09AM (#1261023) Journal

                    I'm intolerance of intolerance, and I never, you may notice, claimed to be especially tolerant myself. Eat shit, die, go to Hell, and when you get to Hell, eat flaming shit :)

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Wednesday July 13 2022, @12:48PM (9 children)

        by Opportunist (5545) on Wednesday July 13 2022, @12:48PM (#1260482)

        You may want to elaborate on why it is. Preferably with something a bit more substantial than a random post on a random board.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 13 2022, @10:42PM (8 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 13 2022, @10:42PM (#1260646) Journal

          You may want to elaborate on why it is. Preferably with something a bit more substantial than a random post on a random board.

          Like what? The New York Times? As to the alleged randomness, neither the post or board were random. Rather than go on about something this ridiculous, how about I just quote it this time so that it is this non-random post on this non-random board?

          Once again, truth is an absolute defense against such accusations. For example, when Popper writes (taken from the quote a few posts above in the thread)

          for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

          He no longer speaks of intolerant speech, but instead assault with fists and pistols. Assault and incitement to assault or other felonies are already crimes and society has already figured out adequate punishments for those crimes. We don't need intolerating the intolerance nonsense.

          A key way this fails hard is that it fails to recognize that people fall into intolerance ideologies because there's something wrong - with their lives and society. Ostracizing them completely doesn't fix what's wrong.

          So what do you think? Would assaulting you with fists or pistols be legitimate discourse? When the scenarios are this ludicrous, the conclusions necessarily are as well.

          • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Thursday July 14 2022, @12:34PM (7 children)

            by Opportunist (5545) on Thursday July 14 2022, @12:34PM (#1260784)

            But that is exactly the effect. You tolerate it when people preach hate and intolerance against others, it will eventually lead to violence.

            Julius Streicher [wikipedia.org] argued in his trial at Nuernberg that he never caused any harm to any Jews because he never actively hurt a single one. And this is true. He never murdered a single Jew. All he did, week after week, was to tell everyone who wanted to hear it in his newspaper Der Stürmer [wikipedia.org] that Germany could never be free as long as there is a single Jew alive, and what inhumane atrocities the Jews bring to everyone whose path they cross.

            I guess he should not have been strung up after the war?

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 14 2022, @12:41PM (6 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday July 14 2022, @12:41PM (#1260787) Journal

              You tolerate it when people preach hate and intolerance against others, it will eventually lead to violence.

              Then they go to jail. I'm comfortable with the process.

              Julius Streicher [wikipedia.org] argued in his trial at Nuernberg that he never caused any harm to any Jews because he never actively hurt a single one. And this is true. He never murdered a single Jew. All he did, week after week, was to tell everyone who wanted to hear it in his newspaper Der Stürmer [wikipedia.org] that Germany could never be free as long as there is a single Jew alive, and what inhumane atrocities the Jews bring to everyone whose path they cross.

              And he is right. What he did shouldn't have been a war crime.

              I guess he should not have been strung up after the war?

              Indeed.

              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Opportunist on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:38PM (5 children)

                by Opportunist (5545) on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:38PM (#1260801)

                So him being a considerable part of the incitement and indoctrination to the biggest atrocity in the history of mankind does not matter, because only those that actually kill matter.

                Do you seriously not understand how this is a crucial part of why this could actually happen? Do you really think the Holocaust would have been possible without?

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday July 15 2022, @02:29AM (4 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 15 2022, @02:29AM (#1260968) Journal

                  So him being a considerable part of the incitement and indoctrination to the biggest atrocity in the history of mankind does not matter, because only those that actually kill matter.

                  Indeed. You got it right.

                  Do you seriously not understand how this is a crucial part of why this could actually happen? Do you really think the Holocaust would have been possible without?

                  That is irrelevant - because he didn't actually commit the Holocaust. Should we jail all the people who helped build Nazi-era railcars or lay track as well? Their efforts were crucial as well.

                  • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Friday July 15 2022, @09:45AM (3 children)

                    by Opportunist (5545) on Friday July 15 2022, @09:45AM (#1261032)

                    So someone ordering a murder should go free while only the one pulling the trigger goes to jail?

                    Asking for a friend...

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 16 2022, @12:01AM (2 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 16 2022, @12:01AM (#1261185) Journal

                      So someone ordering a murder

                      Now show how that is relevant.

                      • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Saturday July 16 2022, @09:25AM (1 child)

                        by Opportunist (5545) on Saturday July 16 2022, @09:25AM (#1261260)

                        What you're saying here is that someone enticing people to commit mass genocide is free of guilt, as long as he himself does not kill anyone. That's pretty much what Streicher did. We, as a society, agreed, though, that enticing a single person to commit a single murder already constitutes the same crime as pulling the trigger yourself.

                        Do you understand now?

                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 16 2022, @11:05AM

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 16 2022, @11:05AM (#1261268) Journal

                          What you're saying here is that someone enticing people to commit mass genocide is free of guilt, as long as he himself does not kill anyone.

                          The thing is that should be legal. "Enticing" is not incitement [wikipedia.org], nor coordinating, nor actual commission. It's some crazy idiot speaking. If you look at the actual charges, Streicher went well beyond the speech of enticement such as ordering the destruction of a large synagogue and probably participating directly [wikipedia.org] in various other crimes against Jews.

                          In August 1938, Streicher ordered that the Grand Synagogue of Nuremberg be destroyed as part of his contribution to Kristallnacht. Streicher later claimed that his decision was based on his disapproval of its architectural design, which in his opinion "disfigured the beautiful German townscape."

                          Streicher was an extreme vilely and odious character. And he did indeed commit various crimes once he achieved some real power. But enticement to genocide is way too vague to turn into a criminal charge especially were it to get into the hands of an adventurous prosecutor. Am I enticing you to genocide by not fully supporting your argument about Streicher? Or by having the wrong opinion on a number of other issues of the day here?

                          TL;DR: I don't think enticement to commit genocide is or should be a real crime in the first place. It's way too disengaged from the actual crime. And second, it's too vague as a crime, depending more on how far a prosecutor is willing to go than the actual deed.

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @10:07AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @10:07AM (#1259718)

    If you continue to allow AC posting, the remaining staff will burn out and the site will collapse.

    If you continue to BLOCK AC posting, you DEFEAT the purpose of the site.

    If I ran SN, I would see the following options available to me.
    * The Rusty Foster approach -- Put an upper bound on how much I care about running the site and just let it go until I run out of donations/money to waste on it
    OR
    * Take Walter Peck's advice: "SHUT IT DOWN!"
    OR
    * Swallow my pride and admit the current model doesn't work
    * Take up a collection to HIRE A PROGRAMMER for the codebase. Perhaps an honorarium would encourage volunteers.
    * Change the code to support the following:
    ** Lock out all non-management accounts; current managment is the new member base.
    ** Re-admit members solely based on invitation from an existing member - for the sake of anonymity, requests and invitations couild be handled entirely within SN accounts with no email needed
    ** Ban the member PLUS the *member who invited them* when a member shits the site.
    OR
    * Swallow my pride and admit the current model doesn't work
    * Give up on Slashcode/Rehash, which is a major facilitator of the problem
    * Migrate to a modern/maintainable codebase

    Of course the option SN management will take is
    * Argue, because Soylentils do not argue for reasons, you simply argue.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @10:12AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @10:12AM (#1259720)

      ... left one item out of option 3: if a member is banned, everybody they invited is locked out until invited back in by another member.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Monday July 11 2022, @11:02AM (1 child)

    by PiMuNu (3823) on Monday July 11 2022, @11:02AM (#1259724)

    Where is RealDonaldTrump in this discussion? He always has some wisdom to share...

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @11:27PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @11:27PM (#1259965)

      In prison for raping his daughter.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by fritsd on Monday July 11 2022, @11:40AM (2 children)

    by fritsd (4586) on Monday July 11 2022, @11:40AM (#1259730) Journal

    Hey,

    I've switched to "lurking" on this site about since Trump was elected president of the USA, but I still visit occasionally.

    No idea on how to help you about your predicament. I can program in Perl, but I doubt I'm proficient enough to help.

    I just logged in for the first time since 4 years or so to wish good luck to all maintainers and commenters on Soylent News that want to keep it as a forum for discussion.
    Your efforts to keep it functioning are appreciated also by people who never comment anymore (at least 1).

    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday July 11 2022, @12:19PM

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @12:19PM (#1259739) Journal
      It's always nice to see old names reappear!
    • (Score: 2) by coolgopher on Monday July 11 2022, @02:01PM

      by coolgopher (1157) on Monday July 11 2022, @02:01PM (#1259780)

      If you have the time to invest in getting across the code base, I think a lot can be achieved by good ol' "monkey see, monkey do". When I had a look, the code looked surprisingly readable.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by ilsa on Monday July 11 2022, @12:51PM (1 child)

    by ilsa (6082) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @12:51PM (#1259750)

    Based on my own experience on this forum as well as slashdot and others, I've always felt that allowing AC posts causes more harm than good. IMO part of the problem is the ease in which an AC can post. There's not even a captcha. Nothing stopping a-holes with poor impulse control to spew whatever nonsense they want, or even write a little script to post a bunch of stuff.

    But since modifying the code is going to be a challenge (good gravy it's written in _PERL_??? *shudder*), then the only reasonable option is to disable the functionality and block ACs from posting. As others have mentioned, there's nothing stopping you from creating a throwaway account and posting AC that way. It's _still_ not much of a roadblock but it will hopefully provide enough of a barrier for many who just want to muckrake.

    The only question I have is whether logged in users who post AC are still AC, or if they can still be tracked on the backend? If a logged in user repeatedly posts distasteful material as AC, any moderation/complaints should still be tracked to the main account so it can be dealt with accordingly.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Monday July 11 2022, @04:00PM

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @04:00PM (#1259810) Journal

      They are still registered users, they receive moderation points and they can use them under their username. They can, however, opt to post as AC all the time or for specific comments. The site has to be able to track comments, moderations etc. We state that clearly at the bottom of most pages. We usually track them by username and user id but, of course, that doesn't work for ACs who are all account #1.

      So we create a hash for each connection - being one way, I do never get to see the true IP or subnet but we do use a one-way hash of each of them to provide a unique reference at least at that moment in time. If they change their routing, perhaps by VPN, TOR or just switching off a connection, the hashes also change. They can be related to their account because not everyone wants to always post as AC - many want the benefits that having an account gives them (moderation points, journals, etc).

      Some are concerned that we are 'tracking' them as though we are up to something nefarious and underhand. We are not. We would prefer to use a username or user id as it is much more efficient. It might once have been easy to build a rainbow table to decode the hashes - since IPv6 came on to the scene that is simply impossible. Internally, our network is all IPv6 and has been since 2016. TOR is also IPv6 capable, as are many European VPNs but certainly not all.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @01:46PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @01:46PM (#1259775)

    Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to create a community of people that doesn't require some sort of enforcement of decorum. The internet is a particularly bad place to foster community without enforcement. My preference is to be able to participate in things without an account because I have too many accounts already. Way too many. My suggestion is that if accounts are required because of the spamming and abuse being delivered by allowing no account posting then you should just go ahead and make accounts required and try to grow and improve the community under those conditions.

    Even though that would leave me out and I wouldn't be posting or participating, I understand the decision and would support it from afar.

    While I would love to solve the problem of spam and abuse through some other means than enforcing accounts, I just haven't been able to imagine such a thing. In the real world you would just uninvite people to your space. And knowing that is a possibility in the real world, people usually try to maintain some sense of decorum. The internet is like inviting everyone to your space at the same time as removing all accountability. It lends itself to disaster.

    Regardless of what you decide I wish you the best of luck.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday July 11 2022, @11:00PM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 11 2022, @11:00PM (#1259958) Journal
      Rather if conflict gets to the point where it's called conflict, then there's likely non-diplomatic action like use of force going on.
  • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Monday July 11 2022, @02:37PM (8 children)

    by bzipitidoo (4388) on Monday July 11 2022, @02:37PM (#1259788) Journal

    Why do we even need the ability to post as AC? For those who want to contribute anonymously, make a throwaway account, and post a few times under that. A minor bonus to that way is never again having to say "same AC here" when making a reply. Yes, that route is a little more work, little more inconvenient. As I said in the previous article, I look upon suggestions of that sort as much like taming the destructive powers of text editing by limiting the functionality of ctrl-a sorts of stuff, in which it's too easy to lose everything you wrote by pressing ctrl-a when you meant to use shift to type 'A'.

    Handles have been customary since at least the beginnings of CB radio, and most of us use them. When you're discussing such things as where the speed traps are, handles help avoid trouble from fascist inclined police who are all upset that you're hurting their racket, and aren't above harassing you if only they were sure who you are, and worst of all, think it's righteous of them to do so. I really don't see that no account AC posting does anything to materially enhance anonymity as compared to a burner account.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by acid andy on Monday July 11 2022, @03:55PM (7 children)

      by acid andy (1683) on Monday July 11 2022, @03:55PM (#1259807) Homepage Journal

      For those who want to contribute anonymously, make a throwaway account, and post a few times under that.

      About that, janrinok has confirmed bots, spammers and socks are constantly making new accounts. This makes me wonder, is there a point in the near future when the number of accounts will start to slow down or hinder the software? Or would it chug along just fine with ten million dormant accounts?

      If it caused problems, that would open a whole new can of worms; you could make some queries to find a list of accounts that weren't really used, but then who is going to spend the time looking over several thousand of them to make sure they really were spammers and not legitimate Soylentils, before deleting them? I can see why when sites grow up they start having unpleasant policies like deleting inactive accounts...

      --
      If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
      • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Monday July 11 2022, @05:01PM (6 children)

        by bzipitidoo (4388) on Monday July 11 2022, @05:01PM (#1259828) Journal

        Aren't there still captchas that can stymie the bots?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @12:50AM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @12:50AM (#1259982)

          Not without selling your soul to one of the big companies. Even then you can just do challenge presentation to a real user.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:40PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:40PM (#1260218)

            Sellout? You know, forget Elon Musk, this place is ripe for a good ol' fashioned Embrace and Extend by Bill Gates.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @12:18PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @12:18PM (#1260469)

              Because that worked so well for the green site

          • (Score: 2) by Hyper on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:21PM (2 children)

            by Hyper (1525) on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:21PM (#1260490) Journal

            Meanwhile, in 2022, we now have several different technological wonders called "search engines" for which when presented with keywords can find sites relevant to your query and perhaps help resolving a matter causing you grief.

            Let's give this a try! For SCIENCE!

            We'll choose on of the less mainstream but still good while protecting (or claiming to) your privacy: DuckDuckGo

            First, we shall put in a query: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffsb&q=free+catcha+&ia=web [duckduckgo.com]

            Next, we will open one of the links that looks useful from the url, title and description:
            https://fixthephoto.com/best-free-captcha-sources.html [fixthephoto.com]

            Oh my <insert deity of your choosing here>

            Top 9 Free CAPTCHA Sources

                    Captchas.net - The best free CAPTCHA source
                    Friendly Captcha - The user-friendly CAPTCHA alternative
                    Securimage - PHP script for generating complex images and codes
                    hCaptcha - Privacy protection, machine-learning features and rewards for websites
                    JCAPTCHA - Java framework for CAPTCHA detection and integration
                    Buster - An extension for main browsers
                    Death by Captcha - High-precision CAPTCHA solver and bypass service
                    SVG-captcha - MIT license
                    Anti-Captcha - The cheapest CAPTCHA solver service

            Wow. Just wow. That is just on one page. Imagine what other options could be out there!

            There could be more. We must look!

            https://tympanus.net/codrops/2009/09/22/21-free-captcha-sources/ [tympanus.net]

            ohh.. 21 free captcha options. 21. Count it. 21.

            Of course, KittenAuth is also an option. Just putting it out there.

            Search engines, aren't they great?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @10:37PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @10:37PM (#1260644)

              Search engines are a great way to see who to sell your soul to. Now you allow those random websites to track users across sites and sell that tracking info. And a number of those sites are downright trivial to beat. Speaking of which, those Top 9 sources you posted, apparently without reading them, include a number of those bypass services. So to repeat myself, there are not captchas that can stymie the bots without selling your soul to the tracking companies and you can always bypass them by presenting the challenge to a real person anyway.

              • (Score: 4, Funny) by kazzie on Thursday July 14 2022, @10:18AM

                by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Thursday July 14 2022, @10:18AM (#1260767)

                Clearly the optimum solution is to create our own captcha based on SN comments, asking the user to identify whether a given post was made by Aristarchus or not. </sarcasm>

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by pendorbound on Monday July 11 2022, @05:13PM (6 children)

    by pendorbound (2688) on Monday July 11 2022, @05:13PM (#1259831) Homepage

    So much of culture right now desperately needs more people of good conscious telling the trolls, "We don't do that here," and dismissing them, excluding them from the discussion to the greatest degree possible, and moving on with productive discussion.

    The value of AC contributors is more than overshadowed by trolls abusing the feature. It's time to require an account and allow the "Post anonymously" checkbox to be sufficient.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @11:10PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @11:10PM (#1259962)

      I think a big problem (hardly new) is narratives like that that oversimplify things. Trolling is a broad spectrum. Trolls have benefited society greatly. I'm hard pressed to imagine that the net bad effects of trolls outweighs the net good effects.

      But the masses like their simplified journalistic narratives. Trolls are bad, lets applaud those politicians for a news cycle or two that 'did something about the trolling problem'.

      Same goes for drug users. Fuck the War on Complexity.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @11:48PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @11:48PM (#1259970)

        and ditto for hate speech. When I see narratives that don't distinguish amongst the wide diversity of speech that is 'hateful' and/or 'trolling', I chalk it up as a red flag (no offense to our chinese government overlords).

        To be able to speak freely about that which you hate is as much a foundation of the value of Free Speech as the ability to speak freely about that which you love. The intellectual brutes that pigeonhole all 'hate speech' and 'trolling' into the same not-worthy-of-legal-protection-as-Free-Speech buckets... well, I'll self censor the end of that sentence but I'll bet you understand me clearly enough.

        Fuck, next thing you know they'll be locking all the profiteering taxi industry folks up for 'human trafficking'. What a sad fracking set of mainstream language we see in popular use...

        • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:53AM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:53AM (#1260050)

          Fuck, next thing you know they'll be locking all the profiteering taxi industry folks up for 'human trafficking'. What a sad fracking set of mainstream language we see in popular use...

          You realize, of course, that some of those gig drivers are aiding and abetting illegal abortions, crossing state lines to more civilized states that no longer recognize slavery and stuff. Damn Uber traffic! And trafficers! I just wish, that ACs could post on SN. That is all I want. I don't want a pickle, I just wanna AC post on SoylentNews.

          • (Score: 2, Informative) by janrinok on Tuesday July 12 2022, @06:21AM (2 children)

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 12 2022, @06:21AM (#1260056) Journal

            I just wish, that ACs could post on SN. That is all I want. I don't want a pickle, I just wanna AC post on SoylentNews.

            ACs can now, and will continue to be able in the future, to post. Nobody has suggested that AC posting should be banned. It simply requires an account. People have already explained how to do so several times during this discussion. It requires a single selection in the account's preferences section.

            Many comments are being made, both here and in other discussions on this site, by ACs who are using an account.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:06AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:06AM (#1260071)

              So it is already decided? All our discussion here is meaningless? I suspected as much. I knew what jan wanted, and why he wanted it. So why the big display? Just Fuck BuckFeta, if that is what you want to do.

              • (Score: 3, Touché) by janrinok on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:44AM

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:44AM (#1260076) Journal

                I have repeatedly stated that NO DECISION has been made. If you have a workable solution that resolves the problem outlined in the first sentence of TFS then let's hear it.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @05:14PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @05:14PM (#1259832)

    Admin #1: Hmm, seems there's a lot of spam lately.
    Admin #2: Oh yeah? I didn't notice, I browse at +2.
    Admin #1: Hmm, I don't think I should have to browse at +2. Better if we kill AC posting.

    Goodbye and good luck, SN.

    • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @04:28AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @04:28AM (#1260037)

      mod parent insightful. Entirely too plausible unfortunately. (I made other comments about people who claim to want free speech then complain when they choose to waste their time choosing to listen to too much of it)

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by nostyle on Monday July 11 2022, @09:13PM (17 children)

    by nostyle (11497) on Monday July 11 2022, @09:13PM (#1259915) Journal

    This is the world we live in.

    Sometimes the vicissitudes of fortune drive us mad - for we are blessed with brains that enable us to dissociate from reality - and thereby survive truly horrible circumstances.

    We go mad. We are shunned. We become homeless. We move our tents downtown. We despair. We want. We break rules. We craft graffiti.

    People tell us to leave them alone. People run us off. People drive us to live under freeway overpasses.

    They say "Stand to one side, son." They say, "Get a life." They say, "Get a job." They say, "You cannot enter here. You cannot post here."

    In the end, none of them knows what we have done and seen and the heroic efforts it has taken to persevere in this world in the face of rejection and disrespect and disability and adversity.

    Nostyle lived in a fantasy world for five years, where every other being in the world was an adversary to be defeated and humiliated. In that sense, he was the same as apk. Maybe that is why he now hurts so much to see the ravings of apk spammed here. Been there, done that. The hopeful thing is that he emerged on the far side of it - damaged but still functional - and able to contribute something useful to the world.

    Nostyle used to think there was something to be won by publishing his thinking to the public. He had hopes of saving the world from itself. In that sense, he was the same as aristarchus. Maybe that is why he now hurts when he sees the desperate measures ari takes to voice his unique perspectives. Been there, done that. The hopeful thing is that he finally one day realized that God loves it when the world goes sideways - so that there can be heroes, villains, devils and angels, and so that the contents of hearts can be proven.

    SN has been a great place where there was room for these derangements amongst the musings of the educated and experienced participants.

    --
    "Sing a song for the wrong and the wicked and the strong and the sick, as thick as thieves..." -James Taylor, Let It All Fall Down

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @10:15PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @10:15PM (#1259933)

      <small voice=Bullwinkle>Yeah I'm one of them watch-a-bins, mah-self. Can't get enough o' these farewell tours.</small>

      See, it's like me, I can probably find the time to rebuild the air conditioner compressor on my old car, and it looks like an easy enough job, to me. But, you see, it needs some specular grommet milling, and I don't have the requisite 220 voltage in my garage. Now, I could do the 220v wiring first, but the garage roof is starting to leak, and the monsoon season is coming soon. But rest assured, I've fully analyzed the issues involved, and it's not that complicated.

      Now about fixing your little script kiddie code, here... sorry I write in Assembly, and this is all beneath me. I could rewrite it for you in Assembly Language, but the monsoon, you know.

      And I must have the same Area Code + Zip Code + Favorite Movie hash as someone you hate, so I keep getting banned for a single post. Unless it really is me, which is entirely understandable, since the fight is just about gone from me, and I'd just as soon not throw more perfectly good words down this hole. Those elephants are getting restless about the start of the monsoon season.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @10:43PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @10:43PM (#1259948)

        No, I retract that. Everybody talks about the weather. This place is a has-been, of course, but when it came out that somebody in control here can correlate allegedly anonymous posts with the poster, anyone who signed-up here with an identifiable email address is as much of a sitting duck as a Supreme Court Justice. Just how many last straws are there, anyway?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @12:29PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @12:29PM (#1260472)

          This place is a has-been

          Then by all means leave. Go read the green site, news.com or something. The onion maybe? No need to comment here. Thanks for stopping by. CYA.

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @05:39PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @05:39PM (#1260547)

          If you understood how the security services monitor the internet you would realise that it doesn't matter whether the soylent editors can trace you or not. If the bad guys get in power we're all toast. It's lucky Trump got kicked out for starters.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @11:00PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2022, @11:00PM (#1259959)

        And today's Farside [thefarside.com] has a 1981 cartoon reprint about a Yellow Brick Road Race. I'd "read" that, and then think about the word "selfless."

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:33AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:33AM (#1260075)

          Holey Shites! A Moby Dick/Ahab cartoon? Apropos, my dear AC, on target. I rue the day you can no longer post here.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @10:03PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @10:03PM (#1260314)

            I'm not feeling so good about it all, m'self.

            Way down that Farside page, a "PREVIOUS DAY" link will show, it would seem likely though not to be bet heavily upon... the previous day. The Yellow Brick Road Race may still be there. No telling what'll be there tomorrow, since I can't find the "NEXT DAY" link. It'll probably have space ships and cows, though.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14 2022, @05:35PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14 2022, @05:35PM (#1260861)

          On Friday, Farside [thefarside.com] explains creationism. (It's a string theory.)

          See ya on the other side!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @06:29AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @06:29AM (#1260057)

        I'm kind of getting to enjoy all of these "Farewell AC" tours.

        Then again, at least they aren't blaming "gun violence" for them shooting themselves in the foot.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:09AM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:09AM (#1260072)

      I love nostyle! The man has no style! But he is wise beyond measure. I can see why janrinok would want to ban him.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @04:40PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @04:40PM (#1260187)

        (nostyle has a ghostwriter. I'll bet you think Johnny Carson wrote all of his stuff, too. You know, Ed McMahon didn't just drink Budweiser.)

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:56PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:56PM (#1260269)

        AFAICT janrinok has done me no harm. Rather I am indebted to him for helping to keep this site operating well enough for us to post here. Kudos jan!

        -nostyle

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @09:39PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @09:39PM (#1260309)

          Please forgive nostyle, he's a little bit conciliatory. Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

          For the record, do recall that the only bad thing I said was that janrinok probably looks like Berton Churchill.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @12:45AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @12:45AM (#1260341)

            As if you didn't know which room number Mr Barnard was using here. [detcele-er eki]

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:14AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:14AM (#1260352)

              ...oops. I should have encoded that as [Taylor, Hudson, Dean]

    • (Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:11PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:11PM (#1260489)

      I don't know what to make of the whole aristarchus story. We just have to listen to other people's take on certain events and apply our own judgement. For good reasons, we will never be party to all of the facts. If you post random hateful garbage on the internet you can expect to be challenged. I hope you'd be challenged. Free speech only works if the counter-arguments get aired. Ari challenged some pretty persistent posters of backward and abhorrent views. This attracted mod bombing and sock puppets may have been involved. Then who knows what. Doxxing is a pretty nasty thing to do. The aristarchus account may be permanently banned but I hope he returns in another guise and maybe does things a little differently.

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by kazzie on Thursday July 14 2022, @10:21AM

        by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Thursday July 14 2022, @10:21AM (#1260768)

        I remember some nice discussions with the Aristarchus of old.

        But then again, I also remember pilots inviting kids to the cockpit during long flights. Not everything can come back from the past.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by meustrus on Monday July 11 2022, @11:06PM

    by meustrus (4961) on Monday July 11 2022, @11:06PM (#1259960)

    I honestly stopped coming here because it felt like the comment section started to have more AC trolls than real people. I’m glad to see something is being done. I might stick around. I trust my political opponents will still be here regardless :)

    --
    If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Curlsman on Monday July 11 2022, @11:35PM (3 children)

    by Curlsman (7337) on Monday July 11 2022, @11:35PM (#1259967)

    When the British were trying to quiet the American Revolution printing (eventually) stuff like Thomas Paine's Common Sense, they tried to control printing with the Stamp Act, where paper had to have an English royal stamp. But that's not what is happening here.
    Today, you can set up your own OS and web server to publish anything you want, though your ISP might shut you down (though I don't think it should, if they're actually a common carrier...). But that is not what is happening here.

    What is happening here is when anyone posts here, they are using this site as a printing press to publish something for free.
    What is happening is SoylentNews is the web server (publisher), not owned by the posters (but we should donate to keep it that way...), choosing to not allow completely anonymous publishing (requiring an account even to post AC), and that is the publishers choice.

    This is not about free speech, it is about free publishing.
    If you don't like it, publish your words yourself.

    And yes, I am staying.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @02:23AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @02:23AM (#1260013)

      Except that nobody learned how to oil this printing press.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by kazzie on Tuesday July 12 2022, @06:50AM

        by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 12 2022, @06:50AM (#1260065)

        On the contrary: it can be oiled and kept going, but there's nobody up to re-engineering it.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:36AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:36AM (#1260358)

      "This is not about free speech"

      It's about making speech on a forum that did not have Free Speech less free.

      But lots of people are commenting here in part because the topic does brush up against the question of "Is the internet a tool of Free Speech?". Lots of politicians and big money making profiteers over the last 3 decades seem to have gotten a lot of milage hyping the internet as having something to do with free speech. The size of this discussion is in large part a bursting of that bubble of bogosity IMHO.

      I appreciate that your comment acknowledged some of the core issues that I've been wishing would get much more attention in the mainstream media. It seems like a fundamental core issue that power resides in the owner of the server. I actually see no reason every person on the internet shouldn't be able to own their own server if they so choose. The forces that oppose me could use this whole thread and the 'but for the lack of a perl programmer' to discredit the value of owning one's own server. I believe if the government got the common carrier angle that you surfaced correctly, the quality of the server software that the masses could run would rapidly become a legit threat to gmail's billions of dollars of profit. Thus not so surprising Google^HAlphabet isn't helping the situation, and I suspect actively hurting it. Relatedly in my mind, I just saw a funny article about the FTC and gmail and the level of control gmail users have over the spam system that they use. More dancing around the aforementioned decadeslong misleading about the internet having anything to do with free speech (in the absence of the right kind of common carrier / net neutrality legal protections for people who own servers they wish to be connected to and usable by the internet). And also in the nexus of how I think this core issue is so important, a current wapost headline about twitter going easy on trump wrt their policies because they relished the power he brought to the platforrm. Platforms are political power. Free Speech on the internet matters. Soylent News Aint It. But it does seem to be a legit competitor to Slashdot, which also Aint It.

      -modwotac

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by fleg on Tuesday July 12 2022, @03:13AM

    by fleg (128) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 12 2022, @03:13AM (#1260021)

    greetings janrinok,

    i'm not real sure what you're asking but for the record you and the rest of the team have always seemed to me to do an excellent job and i'm ok with you turning off AC except for registered users.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @03:39AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @03:39AM (#1260025)

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @02:28PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @02:28PM (#1260501)

      Go choke on it skin bucket.

      *flips you off*

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by acid andy on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:11PM (7 children)

    by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:11PM (#1260195) Homepage Journal

    This story is already at the top of the Hall of Fame [soylentnews.org] for the most ever comments, 638 as I write this, and likely has more to come. Although I'd prefer that the circumstances were different, it's amazing to see so many Soylentils popping up, many of whom hadn't posted in years. It shows the true size of our community. Imagine the discussions we could have if a good few start to participate more regularly.

    It seems janrinok's stumbled across whatever that thing is that Farcebook does to keep people "engaged" with their content!

    --
    If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:52PM (6 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @05:52PM (#1260228)

      On the other hand, when this thread drops, some of us folks'll be outa here like a shot.

      • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:19PM (3 children)

        by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:19PM (#1260254) Homepage Journal

        Outta here voluntarily or because you're not going to make an account and likely won't be able to post anymore?

        --
        If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:25PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @07:25PM (#1260256)

          Yes. But the main thing is that aristarchus will no longer be able to post AC, since he has no account, and has been perma-banned on false accusations.

        • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @09:27PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2022, @09:27PM (#1260301)

          Outta here voluntarily or because...

          You've won your Pyrrhic victory. Now you ask prices?

          [* AC Friendly *]

          Couldn't come up with a less ironic synonym?

          I've voiced opinions in this thread; no summary needed. Reminiscing about your previous farewell tours, like that big poll that was eventually shut down (unlike today's eterna-poll), and how nobody here ever listened, anyway. janrinok already said you guys maintain dossiers on all those who've done you wrong, so I'll say I'm a macho, 6'4" cattle rancher in Wyoming, of Norwegian and Inuit heritage, voting a straight Whig Party ticket, and living on coffee and beans. Lots of beans. Raw.

          You know, I tried to post this, and you guys had banned this IP. I haven't posted anywhere but in this thread. since it was born.

          • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday July 12 2022, @09:34PM

            by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday July 12 2022, @09:34PM (#1260306) Homepage Journal

            I haven't won anything. I like the non-logged in AC feature and would be sad to see it go. Some people post horrible crap on here that makes reading the comments an unpleasant experience sometimes, but I'm sure that will continue to happen whether we have ACs or not. Some of the worst stuff has been posted by logged in and named users in the past.

            --
            If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:15AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @01:15AM (#1260353)

        Goodbye. Thank you for being part of the community. Come back if you want. I hope SN will be here for you and others in the future who want to read interesting news articles and talk about them.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Opportunist on Wednesday July 13 2022, @09:54AM

        by Opportunist (5545) on Wednesday July 13 2022, @09:54AM (#1260445)

        That's true. And no matter the decision, it will mean the departure of some people. Either those that consider making an anonymous account with some mail provider is too much of a hassle to go through, or those that are pissed off enough with the spam and drivel of ACs that they turn back around and leave (again).

        The only thing the admins here can decide which group they would rather miss.

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