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posted by NCommander on Monday December 05 2022, @08:37AM   Printer-friendly
Hey folks,

Well, it's been a bit of time since the last time I posted, and well, I had to think a fair bit on the comments I received. It's become very clear that while I'm still willing to at least help in technical matters, the effort to reforge SN is much higher than I expected. In addition, given the, shall we say, lukewarm response I got to my posts and journal entries, well, I'm clearly not the right person for the job.

I think at this point, it's time to figure out who is going to lead SN going forward. After my de facto stepping down in 2020, the site has, for want of a better word, been a bit listless. At the moment, no one on staff really has the cycles to take that position on. A few people have expressed interest in the position, and I've talked with Matt, who is co-owner of the site about this. By and large, whoever fills the seat will have to figure out what, if anything, needs to change in regards to moderation policy, content, and more.

If you're interested in potentially fulfilling the role, drop me an email at michael -at- casadevall.pro, with the subject of "SN Project Leader", and include the following:

  • Who you are
  • What you want to do with the site
  • How you intend to do it
  • Why do you want to get involved

I'll leave this call for candidates open until December 14th, at which point Matt and I will go through, and figure out our short list, I'll talk to editors, and solicit more comments from the community. I'm hoping to announce a successor in early January, and formalize the transition sometime in February, which will be the site's 9th anniversary.

 
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  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05 2022, @07:18PM (11 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05 2022, @07:18PM (#1281303)

    >Everyone should fear the very idea of a MinTru.

    I agree with this, but disagree that Reddit goes trolling through their entire system looking for "Non-truths" to censor. Stuff that hits the front page? Sure. Stuff that's getting millions of views an hour? No doubt. Stuff in a mostly private sub-reddit which might reach 1000 eyeballs in the first 30 days after posting? A) it's doubtful they even have a bot capable of such things, sure... the bot can give them a list of posts to look at, but just searching for COVID vaccine blood clot isn't going to tell you whether this is a "Pro-truth" or "Anti-truth" posting. So, B) given their limited bandwidth for evaluating posts, it seems that they do what I would do in their shoes: hit the ones that are having the maximum impact. And, C) they are semi-sensitive to anti-censorship sentiments, but like here, there comes a time when some kind of censorship really is the answer.

    Also consider: D) there are (supposedly proven) bad actors out there pushing divisive and harmful messaging onto social media platforms of all kinds, and while I respect the right to free speech, I don't respect bots with an agenda contrary to what is widely held sentiment. In other words: I have no problem at all with kicking the anti-semites out of the Synagogue.

    I strongly agree that the religion of settled science is out of control, grasping at the weakest of evidence and labeling it "Settled Science" when it matches their opinions / agendas.

    I would caution: the weakest snake oil can be dressed up with JAMA, PLOS and all manner of articles published by "big names" from Harvard School of Medicine, The Cleveland Clinic, University of Oxford, etc. etc. etc. providing dozens of articles spanning a decade or more of research all reaching the same conclusion. And, if you don't do your own research, you may not find the hundreds of counterpoint articles refuting the carefully procured impressive package of research.

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05 2022, @11:18PM (10 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2022, @11:18PM (#1281340) Journal

    You've made an excellent argument here for identifying, and eliminating the bots. Whether the platform be Reddit, Twitter, or some small place like SoylentNews, bots should always be unwelcome.

    But, you seem to be arguing that because Reddit's censorship only affects the big guys with millions of followers, that makes censorship acceptable. You and I can fly under the radar, so to speak. Sorry, I don't accept that. They may not restrict what I can say, but they will restrict what I can see, hear, and read.

    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05 2022, @11:31PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05 2022, @11:31PM (#1281344)

      I understand the principal, but the practice is what I base my day to day decisions on.

      I sincerely despise AT&T for a laundry list of reasons, but I don't go choosing my ISP based on whether or not they use AT&T trunk lines...

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    • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Tuesday December 06 2022, @01:48AM (8 children)

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06 2022, @01:48AM (#1281350) Journal

      As you insist on continuing this discussion here, let me give you a few things to think about.

      1. A few months ago someone posted a link to child pornography in a comment. I deleted it. I didn't discuss it with everyone - just one other person - and it was deleted. It was possibly an attempt to land the site in serious trouble so that we would probably be forced to close down. Are you arguing that we should have debated the matter further, or not even deleted it at all? How long does US law permit us to display that link while we discuss whether or not a deletion is justified? What if we say we will not delete it because some of the community disagree in principle with deleting data. How do you think that would go down in court?

      2. We covered a story in the last few days of an 11 year old who ran a BBS. If he was doing something similar today and he wished to join this site we would probably welcome him with open arms. A few months ago we suffered from various attacks by 'apk' which resulted in 24 spam posts posted in a few hours and 16 of them in one story. You can probably all remember the content. Would you want your 11 year old son or daughter being exposed to that? I know some adults that decided to leave the site because of that sort of behaviour. The spam was also deleted.

      Several comments recently point out that the site has a reputation as a right-wing site. We are not. But several of our community hold fairly strong political views. The community might decide that such discussions should not be permitted because they put the site in a bad light. On the other hand they may fight for the opposite viewpoint. That discussion, if held here, will simply disrupt another Meta that is intended to get people thinking of a new leadership with a revitalised and maintainable software base. We are not trying to solve every issue now.

      We DO need to have a discussion on the policy regarding how we handle such things but not here, not now. Until we have a reliable way of deleting data that we are obliged by law to do, we cannot yet discuss any policy meaningfully. Currently there are parts of the site that the admins cannot edit or control. So any policy needs to take this into account yet the software is not yet even written. We do not know what will be possible or impossible to achieve. This story is about the leadership going forward. Whoever that person is will have to hold that discussion, construct and publish a policy which takes into account the views of the community, and then carry that forward.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday December 06 2022, @03:42AM (5 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06 2022, @03:42AM (#1281362) Journal

        1. Illegal crap is deleted, doesn't need any fanfare. Illegal is illegal, and if in doubt, you should err on the side of safety.

        2. Spam may or may not be legal so you don't have that safety net to rely on when deciding whether to delete it. You do have the PG-13 rating to use. Almost no one would object to the deletion of that goatse spam. You would get nearly universal approval. If that objective is stated clearly, I would say go for it. Other spam is - - - debatable. The mod system has been and/or is being discussed. If the members could spam mod a post to negative leventy-leven, no one would ever see the spam, unless they actually went looking for it.

        Virtually all other censorship is, and always will be wrong.

        And, the reason I brought up censorship is, it was mentioned in the other meta post by Ncommander. The man stated pretty clearly that he wanted to introduce censorship to the site, above and beyond what the law demands, and above and beyond any PG-13 or R ratings might require.

        It is appropriate, when recruiting a sysadmin, to find out his/her views on the subject of censorship.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Tuesday December 06 2022, @08:09AM (4 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06 2022, @08:09AM (#1281371) Journal

          it was mentioned in the other meta post by Ncommander

          Which is where your comments should have been directed. They would have been at home here https://soylentnews.org/meta/article.pl?sid=22/11/20/0342250 [soylentnews.org] or https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=22/11/12/1229226 [soylentnews.org] where the matter was first raised, and the justification for it explained.

          It is the community's views on censorship that are important - the leadership and administration of this site have always tried to serve the community. It is not done for self aggrandisement. Actually it is a pretty thankless task which will always fail to please somebody. We give everybody as much freedom as is allowed in the journals, but even that might have been against the site's own interests.

          If the community decide that journals containing extreme political views from either side of the spectrum should not be permitted then that is what the administration should be attempting to achieve. Politics was not a topic for the first year or two of the site. There is NO inherent right of freedom of speech on the internet. We can choose to host whatever is decided is suitable. Ask Google. Twitter, Facebook or any of a multitude of other web sites that are around today. The First Amendment limits the US Government's powers and nothing else.

          • (Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday December 06 2022, @01:33PM (3 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06 2022, @01:33PM (#1281388) Journal

            As so often happens, my original post above has served as a lightning rod. Modded down, modded up, back down, and up. The community is voting . . .

            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday December 06 2022, @02:57PM

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06 2022, @02:57PM (#1281396) Journal

              Except this isn't the discussion that will count. That discussion is still to come.

            • (Score: 3, Funny) by kazzie on Tuesday December 06 2022, @07:34PM

              by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06 2022, @07:34PM (#1281426)

              Clearly we need to put your post inside a magnetic field: at this rate it could generate enough energy to power the SN servers!

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by pTamok on Tuesday December 06 2022, @09:34PM

              by pTamok (3042) on Tuesday December 06 2022, @09:34PM (#1281443)

              It's not a meaningful vote, as it is so easy to game. The disclaimer on the polls applies.

              This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane.

              It is an indication of how strongly some people feel about the topic, but (strong) feelings and rationality make strange bedfellows. Being 'liked' by people and feeling good about your opinions doesn't necessarily make them error-free.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by RS3 on Tuesday December 06 2022, @05:40AM (1 child)

        by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday December 06 2022, @05:40AM (#1281367)

        I see and agree this discussion's main topic is about tech issues and who and how to move forward. NCommander did mention that part of the person's role will involve content, moderation, etc., so this is somewhat on topic.

        I wasn't aware there was so much bad stuff being posted here. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with that. I've had to deal with such things a few times and it's sad that there's such depravity in our world at all. I, and we, can not thank you enough for all you do that we know about, and as much or more for all you do that we don't know about. I know, all too well, about thankless jobs.

        Not defending anyone, and certainly don't mean to get in the middle here, but I think (obviously?) it's about where to draw the line of what needs to be removed.

        I'm a pretty independent open-minded person (I hope and aspire anyway). I don't mind someone here mentioning some medical nonsense. Sorry, as much as I truly like, respect, and am enriched by everyone here, I'm not going to run out and take a medicine because someone here wrote about it.

        In general with information from here and everywhere, I put the stuff in the crock-pot between my ears and see what it becomes eventually.

        That goes for politicians too!! They do a lot of talking anyway. Many of them like attention a bit too much. I'm not going to try a medicine because a politician said to.

        But I will follow my doctor's and other solid medical advice. Especially the better safe than sorry kind. Well, I might take something a doctor tells me to. Maybe.

        My point is, and I would strongly suggest this as a subtext to everything here, take things with a grain of salt. Whatever it is. Don't risk life, health, finances, relationships, time, effort, or anything, just because someone here wrote it.

        In fact, don't even take my advice! :-/