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posted by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @10:48AM   Printer-friendly
from the drupal-gored dept.

Drupal founder Dries Buytaert expelled Larry "Crell" Garfield from the Drupal community (archive) for his involvement in the BDSM community. Garfield claims this was done at the demand of Drupal Security team member Klaus "klausi" Purer and unknown others secretly pressuring Drupal leadership to have him removed for his private sex life.

takyon: From Larry's response:

I am involved in two such communities, specifically the BDSM community and the Gorean (Gor) community. The former is by far the larger of the two and more varied, although I spend more of my time and activity in the Gorean community. It's a small community, and sadly much of what is found online about it is utter crap, just as most in the BDSM community find the "50 Shades" representation of BDSM to be harmfully misleading. The Gorean subculture is inspired by a science-fiction book series written from the 1960s onward to today, and predicated on a strong sense of personal honor, integrity, and community. It also practices consensual Master/slave relationships, and has a strong gender bias toward male-Dom/female-sub relationships, but that is not the cornerstone of Gorean culture. There are other groups that are biased the other way, or have no gender bias. There are even groups in Chicago (where I live) that have regular "fem-dom" parties. To each their own.

It's the same Gor that was adapted into two films, one of which appeared on an episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000.


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by coolgopher on Monday March 27 2017, @11:04AM (27 children)

    by coolgopher (1157) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @11:04AM (#484569)

    This is seriously #notcool by Dries Buytaert (buy-tart? does he engage sex-workers? the community evidently needs to know about such "deviances"!)

    Seriously, live and let live, people! What people do outside their coding is their own damn business.

    • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @11:14AM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @11:14AM (#484571)

      That said, have you ever Norman's books? They're terrible. The guy should have been fired for having dreadful taste, if anything.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @04:22PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @04:22PM (#484673)

        That said, have you ever Norman's books?

        Have I... what exactly?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @04:50PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @04:50PM (#484700)

          You know, have you ever, have you ever, he says knowingly? Does your wife go? Say no more! Say no more!

          • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday March 27 2017, @11:38PM

            by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @11:38PM (#484940) Homepage Journal

            Merely a flesh wound!

            more....more! God, yes... hurt me! Cut off my legs now.... Yes...YES...YESS!!!!

            --
            --- That's not flying: that's... falling... with more luck than I have. ---
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @06:53PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @06:53PM (#484776)

          That said, have you ever Norman's books?

          Have I... what exactly?

          C'mon, admit it! You probably have. It's nothing to be ashamed of, really. Most people have done it at least once.

        • (Score: 2) by bart9h on Tuesday March 28 2017, @01:21PM (1 child)

          by bart9h (767) on Tuesday March 28 2017, @01:21PM (#485127)

          I think he accidentally a word.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @01:53PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @01:53PM (#485143)

            I think are right

      • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:31AM

        by jmorris (4844) Subscriber Badge <jmorrisNO@SPAMbeau.org> on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:31AM (#484955)

        Actually the first six? are pretty standard mid grade pulp fantasy fare and then they suddenly become something.... else.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @02:16PM (4 children)

      by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @02:16PM (#484613) Journal

      I don't think enough attention has been paid to the Klaus guy. Looking at his web stuff, you can see what looks like evidence of "virtue signalling". First time I've used that loaded term IIRC. His Twitter also went silent on the 22nd (as has Dries post-blog [twitter.com]).

      https://klau.si/ [klau.si]
      https://twitter.com/_klausi_?lang=en [twitter.com]

      Some of the comments on Larry's blog allude to more about Klaus but I can only care so much about #DrupalGate. I did suggest forking Drupal with a name like Kajira [gor.net] (lol).

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Wootery on Monday March 27 2017, @04:43PM (2 children)

        by Wootery (2341) on Monday March 27 2017, @04:43PM (#484688)
        • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Monday March 27 2017, @04:55PM (1 child)

          by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Monday March 27 2017, @04:55PM (#484703) Journal

          Nice find!

          Klausi's gonna get laid tonight! That's a good boy, Klausi, a good, obedient boy!

          • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 27 2017, @05:30PM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @05:30PM (#484723) Journal

            My reaction, as well. Klausi is obviously a pussy whippped douche.

            --
            #Hillarygropedme
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @07:26PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @07:26PM (#484810)

        Backdrop is the fork of Drupal, maybe this bullshit along with the Drupal 8 fiasco will give Backdrop a nice bump in it's userbase.

    • (Score: 2, Disagree) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 27 2017, @05:32PM (13 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday March 27 2017, @05:32PM (#484724)

      Live and let live - agreed.

      Private matters should not affect employability - agreed.

      However, this public posting would seem to be a willing "outing" of his sex life - making it no longer private.

      I didn't ask, but he told anyway... that would seem to be soild grounds for dismissal.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @06:58PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @06:58PM (#484782)

        I didn't ask, but he told anyway... that would seem to be soild grounds for dismissal.

        How so? Does his sex life off the clock affect his coding while on the job? Can you give us any examples?

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @07:17PM (4 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @07:17PM (#484803) Journal

          How so? Does his sex life off the clock affect his coding while on the job? Can you give us any examples?

          The obvious thing is when his sex life off the clock brings problems on the clock. There are a variety of ways that can happen such as porn surfing on the clock, sexual discrimination, off the clock criminal charges that harm the reputation of the organization.

          But what's interesting here is that no such problems have been mentioned. For example:

          The Gorean philosophy promoted by Larry is based on the principle that women are evolutionarily predisposed to serve men and that the natural order is for men to dominate and lead.

          According to Garfield, it's just a great way to be kinky in your relationships and he emphasizes consensual master/slave relationships.

          The Gorean subculture is inspired by a science-fiction book series written from the 1960s onward to today, and predicated on a strong sense of personal honor, integrity, and community. It also practices consensual Master/slave relationships, and has a strong gender bias toward male-Dom/female-sub relationships, but that is not the cornerstone of Gorean culture. There are other groups that are biased the other way, or have no gender bias. There are even groups in Chicago (where I live) that have regular "fem-dom" parties. To each their own.

          So according to Garfield, he isn't promoting the "Gorean philosophy". In his own words, he's having fun.

          Maybe there were legitimate problems which have no been brought out in the open, but I don't see the case made for exiling Garfield.

          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Monday March 27 2017, @08:01PM (3 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @08:01PM (#484837) Journal

            And guess what we call

            consensual master/slave relationships.

            ?? Slavery! There are some things to which even mentally competent adults cannot consent. We might even say that if they do, they are not mentally competent? Now of course, if it is only pretend slavery, but where is the fun in that?

            --
            #freearistarchus!!!
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @08:54PM (2 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @08:54PM (#484867) Journal

              ?? Slavery! There are some things to which even mentally competent adults cannot consent.

              The obvious rebuttal is that the "slave" party can leave the relationship any time they want (since the relationship is consensual). That makes it not slavery for those keeping track.

              • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Monday March 27 2017, @09:13PM (1 child)

                by aristarchus (2645) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @09:13PM (#484880) Journal

                khallow!!! Did I give you permission to comment in this thread? No? Hold out your hands! Where did I leave that riding crop? No, I will not listen to your latest appeal to the pedant's dictionary! You need to be punished, on your obvious rebutt.al. Leave? There is no "leave". Now, hold out your hands, knuckles up. NOW!!

                --
                #freearistarchus!!!
                • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:15AM

                  by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:15AM (#484944) Homepage Journal

                  Do you have a newsletter?

                  --
                  --- That's not flying: that's... falling... with more luck than I have. ---
      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by bradley13 on Monday March 27 2017, @07:02PM

        by bradley13 (3053) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @07:02PM (#484786) Homepage Journal

        He "told" because he was fired for his sexual preferences, and told to keep the reason quiet. "Telling" the real reason he was fired, rather than quietly disappearing, is his only possible defense. WTF else was he supposed to do.

        BTW, it took a lot of guts to out himself.

        --
        Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @07:06PM (5 children)

        by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @07:06PM (#484789) Journal

        However, this public posting would seem to be a willing "outing" of his sex life - making it no longer private.

        I didn't ask, but he told anyway... that would seem to be soild grounds for dismissal.

        If you are talking about the garfieldtech.com link in the summary, he had already been exiled before he "outed" himself, and had already been outed internally (leaked info from a private site).

        I do not suffer threats and bullying lightly. I immediately referred the matter back to the CWG, who tried to set up a mediation that consisted of a single conversation with each of Klaus and I and concluded once again that I had in no way violated the Code of Conduct.

        Apparently, during this time, Klaus continued to "monitor" my posting on the private forum and share further excerpts from there with the CWG, at least, in a continued effort to get them to kickban me. (See previous statement about their Terms of Service.)

        Then on 24 February I got a phone call from Drupal project lead Dries Buytaert. Apparently Klaus was insisting that I be removed from DrupalCon (where I have been a track chair for many years, and was selected as a speaker) before speakers were announced the following Monday (the 27th). It seems Dries and Drupal Association Executive Director Megan Sanicki had been informed of the situation weeks earlier, but neither had reached out to me once about it. Now, in my first contact with Dries, he asked me "to step down from Drupal", including as a Drupal advocate for the PHP community, "in the best interest of the project".

        [...] We talked further, but Dries wouldn't budge on me leaving, including making it clear that it wasn't an option, but an instruction. The conversation ended with Dries saying "think about it, let's talk again, maybe soon", and indicating that he needed "time to process".

        [...] The next communication I received from the Association was an email from Megan on Monday 27 February, informing me that I'd been summarily dismissed from my position as track chair and as a speaker at DrupalCon, "per [my] conversation with Dries".

        I do not know if "per my conversation with Dries" means I'm unwelcome in Drupal because of my sex life, I'm unwelcome in Drupal because Dries was afraid Klaus would go public and embarrass the project otherwise, or something else. I have been given no further information than that and still have not been.

        I never expected to be subject to prejudice and discrimination in Drupal, least of all from Drupal's leadership. I therefore referred the matter to the Board of Directors, as I didn't think they would approve of discrimination within the community. The Board's only available time to meet was while I was presenting at a conference and thus was unable to attend, instead submitting my case in writing, at length, detailing the same information as I've presented here and then some. They sent me no questions in advance of the meeting. I know nothing of the Board's internal deliberations. I only know that their response came back "The board has voted to affirm Megan’s decision to revoke the session for DrupalCon Baltimore and end the track chair term."

        (emphasis mine)

        His post was on March 22nd, Buytaert's anemic response was the next day. But he was done for before March 22nd. Sure, he outed the gory details of his sexual relationship preferences... which were actually pretty tame and should not lead to dismissal at all.

        Get how you're wrong, eh?

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 27 2017, @07:33PM (4 children)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday March 27 2017, @07:33PM (#484818)

          I get that I'm an outside observer, getting slanted dribs and drabs of an incomplete version of the whole story.

          I did garner a bit about wearing leather to work. I perceived a willingness, even eagerness to discuss the whole thing in the writing that I read. It could be that he was absolutely silent and 100% discrete about it at work and this only came out after a third party brought it into the workplace (which, in itself, could still be his fault in some circumstances), or it could be that he bent anyone and everyone's ear about it at every opportunity - I'm sure it was somewhere in-between.

          Where on that spectrum his actual behavior fell vs. the expectations of the workplace culture would determine how just/un-just this firing was. Do something like this at an indie-startup operating in the San Francisco tenderloin district - I think you'd have to take this pretty far for it to be a justified firing. Do something like this at a conservative accounting firm in the Midwest, the slightest hint of "kinky" might be adequate grounds for dismissal.

          I also do not intimately know the internal culture at Drupal, which has a big bearing on how outraged one should or shouldn't be at this... and, in the end, we're talking about what's "fair," and grown adults with any experience in the real world should know by now: there is no such thing as "fair" in life.

          • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @08:16PM (3 children)

            by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @08:16PM (#484849) Journal

            I did garner a bit about wearing leather to work.

            I wasn't sure what @bradley13 mentioned existed, but I found it. Here is the kinky BDSM wear [ohthehugemanatee.org] in question (found on Google images at various angles [ytimg.com]). If you look closely, you can probably see nipple clamps.

            He has also worn a fedora [museumsandtheweb.com], a symbol of extreme hatred towards women and the concept of God.

            Aside from the leather signalling, he had a geeky obscure goodbye that apparently nobody connected to Gor for years.

            there is no such thing as "fair" in life.

            Larry might have been hurt by this, but it looks like Drupal will hurt more by losing at least one major contributor and driving people off (you can see some of them in the comments on both articles). Balance wins in the end. At least Larry has exited the toxic environment of Drupal.

            --
            [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
            • (Score: 3, Funny) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 27 2017, @08:45PM (1 child)

              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday March 27 2017, @08:45PM (#484860)

              Having said there is no such thing as "fair," let me follow up with: there is such a thing as "karma." Karma doesn't work reliably, or always visibly, or fairly, but it does tend to move people from where they are, closer to where they probably deserve to be. As you said, exiting Drupal is probably more blessing than curse, even if it isn't what he wanted.

              What I wonder is: why, in the age of "employment at will" clauses, did Drupal give any reason for dismissal? The top two explanations I can think of are: A) they're seeking attention from the ensuing outrage, and B) they're idiots. Note, these are not mutually exclusive options.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @09:04PM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @09:04PM (#484871) Journal

                What I wonder is: why, in the age of "employment at will" clauses, did Drupal give any reason for dismissal? The top two explanations I can think of are: A) they're seeking attention from the ensuing outrage, and B) they're idiots. Note, these are not mutually exclusive options.

                Because externally imposed rules aren't the only constraints. For example, consider the case of Stalin's reign over the USSR. He was sufficiently in control that he could have offed people without explanation. But by going through show-trials and similar theater, his regime gave ideological cover to its supporters and increased the level of control over society. Mikhail wasn't a hapless chump who got executed by random lot to scare the rest of us. He was a counterrevolutionary with sympathies to various western bad guys. With that trivial amount of spin, everything is made right for the true believer.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @08:57PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @08:57PM (#484869) Journal
              Don't forget the black slacks! One can almost hear the whip cracking!
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by KiloByte on Monday March 27 2017, @12:04PM (11 children)

    by KiloByte (375) on Monday March 27 2017, @12:04PM (#484577)

    The first paragraph is a gem:

    The Drupal community is committed to welcome and accept all people. That includes a commitment to not discriminate against anyone based on their heritage or culture, their sexual orientation, their gender identity, and more.

    I guess he must have copy&pasted these platitudes, as had he typed them by hand, he'd have a chance to notice how well they apply to this very action.

    Unrelated: "Drupal Security [mitre.org]" team? This sounds kind of like "Congressional Ethics Committee".

    --
    Ceterum censeo systemd esse delendam.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by FatPhil on Monday March 27 2017, @12:17PM (9 children)

      by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Monday March 27 2017, @12:17PM (#484579) Homepage
      Nuhuh. His BDSM is straight, so not protected by any of the above. It probably involves shackling females, and therefore is the embodiment of evil to feminazis.
      --
      I was worried about my command. I was the scientist of the Holy Ghost.
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by choose another one on Monday March 27 2017, @01:22PM (8 children)

        by choose another one (515) on Monday March 27 2017, @01:22PM (#484594)

        Nah, it's worse than that, it involves _consensual_ domination of females which is not just evil it is impossibly evil since no female could possibly consent to be dominated by a male, or *shudder* enjoy it. The victims therefore cannot possibly be both female and consenting, because all females are the same and are also unanimously opposed to being stereotyped.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @03:07PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @03:07PM (#484633)

          Bingo! The correct answer!

          You win an internet!

          I would have awarded you two internets, but you didn't use the trigger word "rape." Obviously, this BDSM group is engaged in human trafficking and sex slavery. Because no womyn-born-womyn would ever voluntarily be a part of it. Because reasons.

          • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday March 27 2017, @04:49PM (1 child)

            by bob_super (1357) on Monday March 27 2017, @04:49PM (#484698)

            Next thing you know, Buytaert will be asking about pizza place basements...

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @04:57PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @04:57PM (#484705)

              But loli haet pizza. :(

        • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday March 27 2017, @08:37PM (4 children)

          by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Monday March 27 2017, @08:37PM (#484853) Homepage
          Oh, christ, consensual? I've read that all consensual activity between a man and a woman is rape!
          --
          I was worried about my command. I was the scientist of the Holy Ghost.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @08:56PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @08:56PM (#484868)

            Oh shit, u went there.

            I think the search term you want is probably "all PIV is rape" (exact phrase), with PIV meaning "penis in vagina". Warning, you may be triggered by the opinions you find.

            • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Monday March 27 2017, @10:00PM

              by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Monday March 27 2017, @10:00PM (#484903) Journal

              See also Dianic Wicca [wikipedia.org] for the metaphysical.

            • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @10:21PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @10:21PM (#484913)

              must be lesbians, or the guys causing that to be true must be shit in bed.

              I usually have the OPPOSITE problem of women getting angry about TOO MUCH foreplay and 'put that thing inside me already!'

              There are quite a few who center their sexual activity around the penis and only need foreplay to help get things flowing beforehand. (Some don't even need that!)

              On the other hand there are quite a few who need to learn to speak clearly about their sexual preferences so the issues don't come up in the middle, since not all guys keep sufficient blood flow to their brains in the middle.

              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 30 2017, @05:02PM

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 30 2017, @05:02PM (#486590)

                Hey. Your friendly (?) neighborhood femme lesbian here. No, the people saying that mostly are straight. Do you know why? Because the vast majority of women are straight. And there's not even that many of the "all heterosexual intercourse is rape!" crowd out there; a comparison I make a lot, because it's true, is that they are to feminism what the Westboro Baptist Church is to American Protestantism. They're loud, opinionated, dogmatic, and wrong in most or all the details.

                Just ignore those idiots. Every large movement is going to have extreme outliers.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @05:50PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @05:50PM (#484739)

      They have "not discriminate against anyone based on their heritage or culture, their sexual orientation, their gender identity" but there are heritages and cultures that discriminate against all of the above. They therefore must simultaneously support and oppose. Muslims get the quantum treatment? Maybe you aren't supposed to ask that question, because it breaks the superposition of acceptance and rejection.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bradley13 on Monday March 27 2017, @12:13PM (9 children)

    by bradley13 (3053) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @12:13PM (#484578) Homepage Journal

    So...Drupal is an SJW-converged community, complete with a code of conduct, where "inclusiveness" is more important than competence. Great.

    Reading the linked articles, and the forum discussion: Crell was put up in front of the committee that enforces the code of conduct, and they determined that there was no problem. But his sexual predilections were still politically incorrect, so he was told to leave anyway. As they say, SJWs always double down.

    SJW communities are all about inclusion, but only if your beliefs align with theirs.

    --
    Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @05:01PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @05:01PM (#484707)

      While your beliefs align. You'll be ostracised rather quickly when the PC stream shifts and starts standing for positions you can't support.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @07:20PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @07:20PM (#484806) Journal

        You'll be ostracised rather quickly when the PC stream shifts and starts standing for positions you can't support.

        That never happens. We've always been at war with Eastasia.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by jmorris on Monday March 27 2017, @05:18PM (6 children)

      by jmorris (4844) Subscriber Badge <jmorrisNO@SPAMbeau.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @05:18PM (#484716)

      The takeaway is demonstration of the impossibility of SJW convergence. As soon as SJWs take over an organization it ceases to be dedicated to the original goal. As soon as the sort of people who talk about CoCs as a good idea appear you must fight them, drive them out if you can. You can allow them to continue contributing code if they accept they will -never- gain influence over project governance but they will almost always disappear in a huff. And if they win, use the power of the Source and fork. Don't bother waiting for the incident like this that makes their goals clear, assume it is coming and go ahead and start looking for server space, setting up a mailing list and coming up with a new name for the forked project.

      The only CoC a project needs is a simple one that says anyone proposing a more complex CoC is instantly banned from the project.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @08:32PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @08:32PM (#484851)

        [coded message follows] SJW Special Task Force, jmorris division, status report: Convergence of subject near complete. Has been successfully diverted. Reduced to repeating "SJW", "CoC" and other acronyms. Soon jmorris will be successfully forked. [end coded message]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @09:30PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @09:30PM (#484893)

        Wow, overgeneralize much? "A pedestrian got hit with a car, which PROVES that cars are not safe. We have to ban them all!"

        Do you have any studies or metrics on how Codes of Conduct typically impact projects?

        I'll also add that context matters a lot, as does the Code of Conduct being proposed. For example, if there was a code which said "no swearing (specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words) [wikipedia.org] in publicly view-able venues, no doxing, no ad-hominum attacks," I imagine most people wouldn't have a problem.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by jmorris on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:24AM (1 child)

          by jmorris (4844) Subscriber Badge <jmorrisNO@SPAMbeau.org> on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:24AM (#484950)

          In theory yes, in practice not so much. So far, pretty much 100% of proposals for a CoC have been SJW entry attempts, usually successful. And it normally isn't just the CoC that is the problem, it is the attitude that comes in with "those" people. Look at the systemd fight in Debian. What could that possibly have to do with a CoC you might ask? Everything. What happened, a cabal from on high mandated the change, declared there would be zero accommodation or tolerance for the dissenters. In other words it was top down authoritarian and zero tolerance. That is exactly the same mindset that SJWs brought in with their CoC and "Women in Debian" initiatives. In other words, Debian is now SJW converged and no longer cares about the original purpose of the project; it pursues social justice as a primary goal and the new leadership lord around their authority in ways openly harmful to the long term survival of the project. That is the impossibility of SJW convergence illustrated.

          Read the Devuan mailing lists. While systemd was the immediate cause of the fork, restoring the focus on freedom, the user and an open community drive their work more than simply eliminating systemd, In point of fact, were it not the case that the packages and patches enabling systemd tend to exclude the possibility of competing systems in the same repo and the lack of manpower to fix all of those problems, it is clear they would like to actually include systemd as part of their goal of promoting user freedom. They don't say it openly but if they did include systemd there would no longer really be a reason for Debian to exist other than inertia and I suspect they realize that possibility exists and would like to see that happen. See XFree86 for how that process works, they weren't SJWs but became authoritarian, so they lost the mandate of the users and vanished.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:10PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:10PM (#485251)

            The problem is that you're a bit crazy and starting to see conspiracies everywhere. Has it happened and will it happen again? Sure. But that is like me saying every judeo-christian follower is a pedophile because so many catholic priests have turned out to be.

            Stupid.

      • (Score: 2) by melikamp on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:22AM (1 child)

        by melikamp (1886) on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:22AM (#484949) Journal
        Hmm it looks like in this case the CoC was ineffective. The Drupal leadership appears to have taken a dump on their own CoC by allowing a witch-hunt, and then purging a member based on his sexual preference & professed philosophy, even though there are dire difficulties with claiming the latter in this case. By the same token, they should in fact be banning all practicing Jews, Christians, and Muslims, since these sects, almost without exception, profess that women are inferior to and are subject to men. This is unlike Garfield, who appears to respect women's rights in the real world, and moreover has no problem distinguishing between the real world and fiction, unlike the religious types mentioned above. As Garfield himself noted, he was fully cleared with respect to CoC, so the real reason he was booted must be the money. It seems likely to me, the board kicked him out in violation of their own CoC, out of fear that his conduct is hated enough to drive away monetary contributions.
        • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:28AM

          by jmorris (4844) Subscriber Badge <jmorrisNO@SPAMbeau.org> on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:28AM (#484953)

          That is the 2d view. A CoC means the SJWs are in charge and thus the actual text is about as important to their decision making as the Constitution is to a Progressive Justice on the Supreme Court. It is all about Social Justice, i.e. the Politically Correct rules. Exactly as we witnessed.

  • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday March 27 2017, @12:46PM (17 children)

    by hendrikboom (1125) on Monday March 27 2017, @12:46PM (#484584) Homepage

    The Gorean community may well practice consensual BDSM, but John Norman's Gor books depict overt, endemic domination by males, and it's not consensual in the slightest.

    -- hendrik

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bradley13 on Monday March 27 2017, @01:06PM (10 children)

      by bradley13 (3053) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @01:06PM (#484588) Homepage Journal

      hendrikboom writes: "John Norman's Gor books depict overt, endemic domination by males, and it's not consensual in the slightest."

      So what? They're fantasy novels. In mystery novels, people get murdered left and right, and nobody gets upset. So why does it matter what happens in Gor? The Gorian society that Crell belongs to is all about consensual fantasies - they don't drag women in off the streets. If that's the game they want to play, that's their business.

      Apparently (reading the linked articles) Crell took this as far as wearing lots of leather in his daily life. The Goth and Emo types also dress a bit strangely. It's still their business.

      Read the first link, by Dries, where he tries to explain why he kicked Crell out of the community:

      - ...holds views that are in opposition with the values of the Drupal project How, exactly, can your personal fantasy life can be in opposition to a project's values.

      - I [Dries] fundamentally believe that all people are created equally Implying that Crell believes otherwise? Proof? Again, the responsible committee found no problems.

      - when a highly-visible community member's private views become public ... Ultimately, I can't get past the fundamental misalignment of values Whose problem is that? Maybe Dries should leave the project?

      - we work hard to ensure that Drupal has a culture of diversity and inclusion. ... It's my opinion that any association with Larry's belief system is inconsistent with our project's goals WTF

      How can anyone take these people seriously?

      --
      Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @02:06PM (1 child)

        by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @02:06PM (#484609) Journal

        They're fantasy novels. In mystery novels, people get murdered left and right, and nobody gets upset.

        Somebody compared it to Clue and going out and killing Colonel Mustard or something. Probably a deleted comment on the Buytaert blog, not sure.

        Crell took this as far as wearing lots of leather in his daily life.

        I didn't see this part at all. Did I skim over it? Larry's blog just mentions "Leather community", not literally wearing leather to Drupal events.

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 2) by bradley13 on Monday March 27 2017, @02:24PM

          by bradley13 (3053) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @02:24PM (#484617) Homepage Journal

          I don't recall where I saw it - might have been a comment. It was something along the lines of "he was always wearing a leather vest, but no one thought anything of it".

          --
          Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Monday March 27 2017, @03:05PM (4 children)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday March 27 2017, @03:05PM (#484631)

        In mystery novels, people get murdered left and right, and nobody gets upset.

        Didn't anyone ever watch "Murder, She Wrote" and wonder how some small town in Maine doesn't have federal investigators crawling all over it for having, by far, the highest homicide rate in the world?

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by Oakenshield on Monday March 27 2017, @08:03PM

          by Oakenshield (4900) on Monday March 27 2017, @08:03PM (#484839)

          Didn't anyone ever watch "Murder, She Wrote" and wonder how some small town in Maine doesn't have federal investigators crawling all over it for having, by far, the highest homicide rate in the world?

          No. Stephen King lives nearby so they figured it was aliens or giant spiders or something.

        • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday March 27 2017, @08:39PM

          by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Monday March 27 2017, @08:39PM (#484856) Homepage
          Midsomer's smaller
          --
          I was worried about my command. I was the scientist of the Holy Ghost.
        • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:26AM (1 child)

          by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:26AM (#484952) Homepage Journal

          With ONE woman connecting them all!

          Yeah, she solved them: BECAUSE SHE DID THEM, AND FRAMED OTHERS!

          Such a sweet old lady.

          --
          --- That's not flying: that's... falling... with more luck than I have. ---
      • (Score: 2) by curunir_wolf on Monday March 27 2017, @04:46PM

        by curunir_wolf (4772) on Monday March 27 2017, @04:46PM (#484693)
        Well, they ARE serious. They seem incredibly either myopic or disinterested in their own hypocrisy. But they are serious.
        --
        I am a crackpot
      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 27 2017, @05:35PM (1 child)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday March 27 2017, @05:35PM (#484727)

        To me when "private views become public" - they're not private anymore.

        If someone else "outed" him, that's one thing, but if he's going to the office dressed in stereotyped clothes and telling anyone who asks what it's about - that's not private behavior.

    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday March 27 2017, @04:33PM (2 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @04:33PM (#484682)

      but John Norman's Gor books depict overt, endemic domination by males, and it's not consensual in the slightest.

      I try to remember how many female characters Tolkien's LotR has. One? Maybe two? And both of the elves race?
      Aren't orcs always demonized in the novel? I mean, look no female orc; and so many orcs and all of them bad? - this can't be!

      Must be a fantasy novel and a shitty one, right?

      • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Monday March 27 2017, @05:19PM (1 child)

        by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Monday March 27 2017, @05:19PM (#484717) Journal

        Off the top of my head:

        - Arwen, elf, the girl with the golden hair, evening star
        - Galadriel, elf, the morning star
        - Éowyn, human, a tomboy who wants to ride with the Rohirrim (also killed the Witch-King of Angmar, yay for fictitious strong women!)
        - Shelob, great spider in Mordor (does a giant spider count?)
        - Goldberry (only mentioned maybe?), Tom Bombadil's wife
        - (ok, had to look her up) Rose Cotton, Samwise Gamgee's wife after the Scourging of the Shire

        Orcs (or at least the Fighting Uruk-Hai) are grown so only have a male gender. Presumably there are orcs out there that reproduce sexually? Maybe if I ever get around to reading The Silmarillion…. I'm also not counting all kinds of Hobbits if you peruse the Shire family trees.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Monday March 27 2017, @06:00PM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @06:00PM (#484747)

          Three, indeed. I'd count only compatible characters who contribute to the plot. Shelob sex is inconsequential to the story, Goldberry and Rose Cotton do not influence the story line.

          > I'm also not counting all kinds of Hobbits if you peruse the Shire family trees
          Until you get to the Silmarillion, a list of hobbits [wikipedia.org] with many female names.

          > Orcs (or at least the Fighting Uruk-Hai) are grown so only have a male gender.
          Mmmm... some orcs have fathers - Bolg is the son of Azog [wikipedia.org]

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @08:45PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @08:45PM (#484861)

      Wait, you mean "Gorean" is not "based on VP Al Gore"? Oh, my, I may have committed a terrible faux pas!

      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:34AM (1 child)

        by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:34AM (#484957) Homepage Journal

        So i'm not the only one running around naked yelling: "I invented the internet and it is causing global warming" while i stuff genetically modified fish pie into my mouth and hold my Nobel prize for doing nothing, like Obama.

        THANK CHRIST!

        --
        --- That's not flying: that's... falling... with more luck than I have. ---
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @01:06AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @01:06AM (#484976)

          That was "faux pas", not "Faux News".

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by sorokin on Monday March 27 2017, @01:18PM (8 children)

    by sorokin (187) on Monday March 27 2017, @01:18PM (#484593)

    This is what I don't understand in western culture.

    In my opinion employees/colleagues should be judged based on their technical skills and merits. Their personal life shouldn't matter as far as it doesn't affect their work.

    For some reason in western culture people think it is O.K. to fire people based on their sexual preferences.

    • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @02:02PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @02:02PM (#484606)

      I might have a hard time working with you if you support cutting up little boys' penises in order to please the creator of the universe.

      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @02:20PM (2 children)

        by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @02:20PM (#484615) Journal

        The real question is: are Mormons welcome at Drupal? They have some interesting attitudes towards women... "Gorean" attitudes?

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @02:25PM

          by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @02:25PM (#484618) Journal

          Side note: there appears to be 3.3 million Muslims [wikipedia.org] in the U.S., and maybe 6.5+ million Mormons [wikipedia.org] in the U.S. (with more Mormons living outside the U.S. than in).

          --
          [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 2) by melikamp on Monday March 27 2017, @10:47PM

          by melikamp (1886) on Monday March 27 2017, @10:47PM (#484922) Journal
          Hehehe, they shouldn't be, right? Almost every major Jewish/Christian/Muslim denomination explicitly teaches that women are inferior to men in some ways, usually with respect to reproduction, leadership, and the freedom to decide what to do with their own bodies. I am not sure about the other two, but most Christians are actually required, as a matter of faith, to profess their values, eliminating the need for locating specific incidents. It would (and now likely will) require a lot of trumpery and mental gymnastics to explain why Christians are welcome to be Drupal developers, while Goreans are not.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Monday March 27 2017, @03:28PM

      by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @03:28PM (#484649)

      This is what I don't understand in western culture.

      Presumably you're from outside it. That's cool.

      Something outsiders don't understand is in west we have a super strong tradition of exoteric fake meaning vs esoteric real meaning. From an exoteric perspective the Drupal project is about writing buggy security exploit filled web frontend code. From an esoteric perspective its a social club for a specific political/religious group.

      Also in the west there's this fair play thing where if you're open to the general public or for the general public, like, I donno, the public library, you're assumed to be very fair and non-discriminatory, but if you're a private group like a church or political party its assumed you're discriminatory and thats seen as OK.

      Lots of noise gets generated in the west by people fighting over the two categorizations above. Its just our weird way.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @05:13PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @05:13PM (#484711)

      I think it's a combination of open source projects wanting to be inclusive, and the fools-gold attraction anything computer related now has, that has attracted the political types and the train of SJWs, virtue signalers and "women coders". Politicize processes, install a "code of conduct", perhaps push out the project's founders in the end.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @07:27PM (1 child)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @07:27PM (#484812) Journal

      This is what I don't understand in western culture.

      In my opinion employees/colleagues should be judged based on their technical skills and merits. Their personal life shouldn't matter as far as it doesn't affect their work.

      For some reason in western culture people think it is O.K. to fire people based on their sexual preferences.

      What's with "western culture"? It's a near universal thing. Current western culture is unusual in establishing the opposite viewpoint, namely, that it isn't ok to fire people based on their sexual preferences.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:15PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:15PM (#485258)

        Sadly we seem to have no rules to govern voluntary organizations. I guess we can look forward to EULAs and other such disclaimers even when trying to join the local book club.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @01:51PM (61 children)

    by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @01:51PM (#484602) Journal

    https://www.garfieldtech.com/comment/2542#comment-2542 [garfieldtech.com]

    This comment summed it up pretty well imo:

    None of the above is anyone's business but yours (and those you're in adult consensual relationships with). Let's all repeat that for the folks in the cheap seats: WHAT TWO OR MORE CONSENTING ADULTS DO IN PRIVACY IS NOBODY'S BUSINESS BUT THEIRS.

    To suggest otherwise at any time is anti-freedom and anti-woman. Yes, it's anti-woman to try to sanction you, a man, for being involved in a relationship predicated on CONSENSUAL dominance over women. Because that word, Consent, is incredibly important. It means that each person in that kind of relationship is getting something out of it that they want. For an outsider to insist otherwise, to insist that women in such relationships lack the agency to decide how they practice their own sexuality. That's anti-woman.

    I've known you for many years, and your feminist cred is not remotely in question in my book. You've never brought your kink into any professional circle where we've overlapped, and you've shown only respect for your female peers, championed them in several avenues. But again, my opinion of you DOESN'T MATTER EITHER.

    If there were evidence of you treating women poorly without their consent, this would be another conversation. If there were evidence of you making unwanted advances (or advances of any kind) in professional situations, be they kink-oriented or vanilla, this might be another conversation. But there isn't. All we have is a whisper campaign about your private life, and as a queer person I find that deeply, inexcusably offensive. I've seen this kind of thing before. I grew up with this kind of thing. But those who inject themselves into other people's sex lives and cast judgement are never on the right side of history.

    You do you.

    Emphasis altered slightly because we have no underline.

    --
    [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday March 27 2017, @02:15PM (10 children)

      Pretty much tells you everything you need to know about the difference between 3rd Gen Feminists and 2nd Gen Feminists. 2nd Gen-ers were about equality and liberty regardless of gender. 3rd Gen-ers are opposed to both regardless of gender.

      --
      We've got #BieberFever [soylentnews.org]!
      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 27 2017, @05:42PM (6 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @05:42PM (#484730)

        Yeah, you're not alone in observing that large chunks of the so-called 3rd wave are somewhere between farcical and outright traitorous. The anti-trafficking stuff I do runs into this bizarre and obvious fifth column that's inserted into the "sex-positive" contingent of the third wave that has this utter obsession with legalizing prostitution or--as anyone who has observed it, let alone lived it, will call it--*commercialized rape.* Dig a little deeper into the networks of the most vocal of this type and you start seeing squicky connections.

        I've been called, get this, "whore-phobic" for wanting the Nordic Model (or to be more precise, a sensical, reasoned version of it that doesn't accidentally enable pimps). And accused of being afraid that someone "more sexually adventurous" would "steal my man." There are at least 3 wrong assumptions in there, by the way.

        So what's a girl to do?! I'm already on a lot of peoples' shitlists for being insufficiently extreme about certain things. Maybe we need a "fourth wave?"

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @07:44PM (4 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @07:44PM (#484820) Journal
          I don't have a problem with most of your post. But here:

          I've been called, get this, "whore-phobic" for wanting the Nordic Model (or to be more precise, a sensical, reasoned version of it that doesn't accidentally enable pimps).

          You can't get rid of pimps. If you look elsewhere in the entertainment industry, there are all sorts of supervisor/support personnel such as managers, producers, book agents, editors, etc who perform the same roles that pimps do in the prostitution industry. The huge difference is that those other industries are legal and hence subject to a variety of regulations that usually prevent the sort of dysfunctional relationships that pimps are infamous for.

          My view is that having and enforcing normal workplace rules will eliminate virtually all of the problems that pimps are known for.

          • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Monday March 27 2017, @10:21PM (3 children)

            by MostCynical (2589) on Monday March 27 2017, @10:21PM (#484914)

            Insightful and reasonable.
            Unfortunately, there seems to be a weird dichotomy for "small government" types - where regulation exists, and seems to work, it is wanted. Where it doesn't yet exist, or isn't working (and in both cases, someone is being explioted, or someone is 'missing out'), they complain about they don't want the regulation.

            I don't think you can keep everyone happy. Trying to keep *most* people safe and free of exploitation is noble, but also likely to fail, especially if the sorts of people at Drupal keep acting like this.

            --
            (Score: tau, Irrational)
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @10:55PM (2 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @10:55PM (#484928) Journal

              Unfortunately, there seems to be a weird dichotomy for "small government" types - where regulation exists, and seems to work, it is wanted. Where it doesn't yet exist, or isn't working (and in both cases, someone is being explioted, or someone is 'missing out'), they complain about they don't want the regulation.

              What's weird about it? You seem to be saying where regulation is proven to work, then "small government" types are for it. And where it's not proven to work, then they aren't. Doesn't seem weird to me, but I'm probably not getting your point.

              I don't think you can keep everyone happy. Trying to keep *most* people safe and free of exploitation is noble, but also likely to fail, especially if the sorts of people at Drupal keep acting like this.

              Drupal is its own reward. When the organization is more concerned about weird crap like this than delivering useful code, it's well on its way to becoming irrelevant. It's not that hard to come up with replacement organizations to replace Drupal. Nor is it that hard to leave Drupal, especially if there's a boot print on your tail bone.

              • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:19AM (1 child)

                by MostCynical (2589) on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:19AM (#484945)

                Either the free market is free, so companies can hire and fire at will, or regulation is needed.
                "You can't fire (or not hire) based on skin colour, repigion, etc etc"
                "You can't hire ( " ) based on sexual preferences"
                ..
                Where does it stop?
                For a true "small governement" proponent, step one: free to hire, fire, descriminate, exploit, at will. Free means employees can go elsewhere, right?
                Companies can also collude, pollute, avoid tax (tax is theft, after all)
                Some regulation? Just a little bit pregnant?

                More on topic, Drupal deserves to shrivel up and blow away.

                --
                (Score: tau, Irrational)
                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:40AM

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:40AM (#484960) Journal
                  Ok, not really seeing the point of the post. "Small government" means some government. So they already grant the need for regulation and taxes which deals with most of your concerns. And the Drupal situation indicates that low barrier to entry (a thing helped by the small government approach) is a counter to irrational discrimination in hiring and public association.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:29AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:29AM (#485062)

          Not only the difference between 2nd generation and 3rd generation of feminists is not real, the only reason this difference is talked about is because of political success of 2nd gen in terming any opposition into "misogyny" and "wants to put women back into the kitchen/1960" or some other similar adhominem. Furthermore the constant propaganda convinces us that feminism is an ideological movement and not a purely political one. "Do you believe in equality? Then you are a feminist and you are just too stupid to not know that." Of course the reality is not that. Feminism has, and it is implied from its name as such, a political movement which wants to put women in more powerful position. It doesn't care who foots the bill as long as it is not women. Functionally it has always portrayed the dominant workforce as an enemy. It is cis-white-het-male in europe, it is islam in middle east, it is hindu in India, it is buddhists in buddhism. Wait one generation and you will find the 4th generation talking about how great 3rd generation of feminists were who were fighting the devil incarnate aka Trump while 4th generation of feminists only want to have more power in already equal society. Why? Because in this equality debate, there is no voice of men. Well, maybe election of Trump stops this nonsense, but lets see.

          See, historically manhood was defined by the ability to follow the system (i.e. honor), to protect and provide women. Hence by design the system attracted more men. But now, when we are opulence is way-of-life and government and machinery takes care of most basic needs, licking pussy has become the new standard of manhood. It is only recent that lack of sex has become an insult. When that happens, you can expect corruption to be institutionalized. What is surprising is that while the geeks/nerds were the first people to suffer this - they were the ones being ostracized for 'not being cool' by the girls and their jocks - but because they ended up making a lot of money and hence made the geeky things ultimately look cool, the newer generation of script kiddies are the bullies and not the bullied.

          A simple metaphor is look at it as a power game between the queen and the king where queen wants the diamond and the throne in the name of female peasantry, then demonizes slutty behavior [thoughtcatalog.com] to keep those rights with only the "worthy women". King on the other hand, who controls the wealth, is under no moral obligation to pretend that he is worried about the male peasantry. At the end, it is the male peasantry that pays the price for this whole show, literally by paying more tax and then removing themselves from the gene pool (army/suicide).

          Posting anonymous so avoid abuse.

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday March 27 2017, @09:11PM

        by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Monday March 27 2017, @09:11PM (#484878) Homepage
        Erm, this is 4th generation now, isn't it? Or is it even 5th? The first two were before my birth, and I remember several.
        --
        I was worried about my command. I was the scientist of the Holy Ghost.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Gaaark on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:42AM (1 child)

        by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:42AM (#484962) Homepage Journal

        What i've noticed is that it used to be about 'strong women' and equality and (you know the songs, sing along with me) "I am woman hear me roar" and "R.E.S.P.E.C.T.".

        Now all i hear is women allowing themselves to be called 'Bitches', and hearing "He my babbie daddy" (isn't that the stupidest phrase someone could say, besides "Who are you wearing?", heard at celebrity fuck-tard things).

        Women used to want respect. Now they are fine with being 'bitches' and unmarried baby portals?

        Damn. Aretha Franklin: are you still ALIVE?

        --
        --- That's not flying: that's... falling... with more luck than I have. ---
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 28 2017, @01:42AM

          Sort of. You're comparing feminists to women though. Given the changes to feminism over the past couple decades, most people (even most women) utterly refuse to associate themselves with the movement anymore.

          Today's feminists are not for equality because that negates their every push for special treatment. They're also not for strong women because strong women flat refuse to shut up and do what they're told.

          See Christina Hoff Summers vs. Anita Sarkeesian if you need further detail.

          --
          We've got #BieberFever [soylentnews.org]!
    • (Score: 1) by pTamok on Monday March 27 2017, @03:10PM (4 children)

      by pTamok (3042) on Monday March 27 2017, @03:10PM (#484634)

      Emphasis altered slightly because we have no underline.

      Who is this 'w̲e̲', kemosabe? ;-)

      *Yes, I cheated with Unicode.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @03:13PM (3 children)

        by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @03:13PM (#484639) Journal

        𝕿𝖍𝖆𝖙'𝖘 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖐 𝖚𝖓𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖑𝖎𝖓𝖊, 𝖞𝖔. 💩

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Monday March 27 2017, @03:48PM (2 children)

          by mhajicek (51) on Monday March 27 2017, @03:48PM (#484657)

          Oh look, rectangles.

          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday March 27 2017, @09:22PM (1 child)

            by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Monday March 27 2017, @09:22PM (#484888) Homepage
            Oh, look, the unicode consortium has confused different fonts for different characters. (The prior post was simply a sentence in gothic[*] script.) However, they've also confused crappy ( http://fatphil.org/1/poo.html - don't bother going there, it's probably just a big rectangle) clip-art libraries for different characters too. It really is time we stopped giving these people any credibility at all. Your standard is bad, and you should feel bad. (Note that the "gun" clipart does not specify a direction, which means that you might send "Sigh... [cop] [shoots] [black man] again!" on you device, but what your recipient gets to read is "Sigh... [cop] [shot by] [black man] again!" (you can blame Apple clipart designers for "thinking different" on that one).)

            [* as humans understand "gothic", not how typographers understand "gothic", which is the exact opposite]
            --
            I was worried about my command. I was the scientist of the Holy Ghost.
    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by kurenai.tsubasa on Monday March 27 2017, @03:37PM (44 children)

      by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Monday March 27 2017, @03:37PM (#484651) Journal

      *snort* Bwahahaha!

      Let's count how many times this attempts to divide by zero. Just like dividing by zero, the question of what the answer would be is itself meaningless. So, I can't use the word “unpossible” below, because that would imply both sarcasm and that it is actually possible.

      I've known you for many years, and your feminist cred is not remotely in question in my book.

      Impossible for somebody assigned the male gender caste. “Feminist cred” is always under question for assigned males. In fact, “feminist cred” is the act of sexually submitting to womyn-born-womyn. Therefore, this is a direct violation of “feminist cred.” It will not be forgiven. The only way for other assigned males to defend their “feminist cred” is to ruthlessly attack this person until their womyn-born-womyn sexual dominators are satisfied.

      you've shown only respect for your female peers

      Irrelevant. The acts he was engaged in directly challenge and subvert womyn-born-womyn domination.

      championed them in several avenues

      Irrelevant. This is not a virtue for assigned males; this is an expectation of their submission to womyn-born-womyn domination.

      But again, my opinion of you DOESN'T MATTER EITHER.

      Oh hey! Correct! Because you, ma'am, are a traitor to your own gender. You should feel lucky you haven't been busted down a caste or two for writing this.

      If there were evidence of you treating women poorly without their consent, this would be another conversation.

      Further proof of this woman's traitorous intentions. His act of subversion of womyn-born-womyn sexual dominance is itself evidence of treating women poorly.

      If there were evidence of you making unwanted advances (or advances of any kind) in professional situations, be they kink-oriented or vanilla, this might be another conversation.

      Wrong. When an assigned male subverts womyn-born-womyn supremacy in one part of life, he subverts it in all parts of life. Therefore, his membership in this club is itself, by definition is proof of unwanted advances in professional situations.

      Just like the acts of rape I am guilty of, these are acts that involve no specific womyn-born-womyn, but are acts against all womyn-born-womyn. They are crimes that require no specific action on the part of the assigned male criminal. There will be punishment for this crime against the individual for virtual rape (kind of like virtual particles in quantum physics—doesn't actually exist except as a way to explain other phenomena; maybe if Unruh waves catch on we can start calling it Unruh rape instead), and against all assigned males collectively and severally for failure to recognize this act of rape in their legal system.

      But those who inject themselves into other people's sex lives and cast judgement are never on the right side of history.

      That's it! Somebody bust this traitor down to the male gender caste; inject HIM with testosterone so HE is marked for the rest of HIS life as an assigned male. Womyn-born-womyn have every right by the word of the Goddess Diane to control the bodies and sex lives of inferior castes.

      lol… so stupid, so predictable

      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @04:07PM (4 children)

        by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @04:07PM (#484666) Journal

        To be clear, you don't actually disagree with what the comment says, and are just taking this opportunity to snark at your oppressors, right?

        Like "liberal", "conservative", "libertarian", or "fascist", "feminism" has about as much definition as a screeching noise. The worst thing you can say about it is that it seemingly encompasses less than "humanism" or "egalitarianism", which is basically the same can of worms as the (Black|All) Lives Matter semantic debate.

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Monday March 27 2017, @06:04PM (3 children)

          by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Monday March 27 2017, @06:04PM (#484749) Journal

          To be clear, you don't actually disagree with what the comment says

          Correct. I imagine that makes me complicit in human trafficking and sex slavery, but since I'm already a metaphysical rapist with a woman suit, meh.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @07:09PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @07:09PM (#484792)

            Whether or not you care, the phrase "woman suit" sounds very creepy.

            • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @07:14PM

              by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday March 27 2017, @07:14PM (#484798) Journal

              What do you expect from the secret leader of the Reptilians?

              --
              [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
            • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Monday March 27 2017, @11:07PM

              by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Monday March 27 2017, @11:07PM (#484932) Journal

              That's the intended effect. It's how feminists view the result of female HRT on the male body, though I was inspired by The Silence of the Lambs for the specific phrasing. Lizard people are also known to wear woman suits (as takyon noted) as well as killer robots from the future.

              All of these are threatening because an impostor takes advantage of appearing to be something else than what it really is. The impostor has ulterior motives and is using deception to obtain its goals.

              Killer robots from the future may appear to be attractive young women (Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles), thus hijacking the instinct many men have of letting their guard down around attractive young women. Lizard people appear to be no different from humans in V as well as Icke's theories and similarly cause people to let their guard down for nefarious ends. According to feminists, trans women undergo HRT as a process of becoming, not unlike the Low Men [wikia.com] in Sai King's fiction, in order to invade womyn-born-womyn only spaces as covert agents of the patriarchy.

              I use it because I'm not asking anybody for acceptance, certainly not any feminist!

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 27 2017, @05:43PM (38 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @05:43PM (#484732)

        Shit like this is why people think of transwomen as hysterical drama queens, Kurenai. Congratulations, you're setting your whole group back 5 years every time you post, not to mention alienating the vast majority of feminists, who are *not* TERFs. Get over yourself.

        • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Monday March 27 2017, @05:59PM (14 children)

          by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Monday March 27 2017, @05:59PM (#484745) Journal

          Nope, not gonna shut up lol. You folks already have bathroom laws on the books. What's going to be the group punishment when abortion is banned? I imagine you can't post about that in a forum that's open to other castes besides yours.

          I might accept that there's possibly some way of promotion from the male gender caste to some quasi-female gender caste that the docile, passive, and submissive trans woman might, with womyn-born-womyn sponsorship, qualify for. I have no interest in being docile, passive, or submissive, however.

          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 27 2017, @06:15PM (13 children)

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @06:15PM (#484757)

            And I'm not asking you to. I'm telling you back the hell off and realize most of us feminists are *on your side.* The TERFs and the selfish rich white haters are the classic small but loud group, like Westboro is compared to Christianity in general. If you want to keep (most of) us on your side, you damn well better stop saying half the human race is evil simply for being born female.

            Do you understand that you are becoming a transgender parody of the d00dbr0 cohort, the coding frat-boys?

            • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Monday March 27 2017, @06:46PM (12 children)

              by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Monday March 27 2017, @06:46PM (#484772) Journal

              Who was ever on my side? On the side of docile, submissive trans women, I'm sure! lol.

              Half the human race isn't evil for being born one way or another. They're more like poisonous mushrooms, er, skittles, er M&Ms! But we've been over that before, and that's exactly the opinion feminists act on explicitly [slate.com], even incorporating it in abusive acts directed at children. Either there's time travel involved here, or the sentiment expressed in that 2014 Slate article is much older.

              So, let me guess. Half the human race are giftpilze, which is why I'm supposed to do the Schrödinger's Rapist Dance or whatever before I dare speak to you, but at the same time, the other half of the human race can't possibly be giftpilze?

              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 27 2017, @06:58PM

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @06:58PM (#484784)

                That isn't even close to what I said, and either you know it and are being a troll, or you're too hysterical to reason with. I'm really not sure which at this point.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 27 2017, @07:03PM (10 children)

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @07:03PM (#484787)

                Christ, you didn't even understand what the fucking article you linked said!

                Let me simplify it: it is true that not all men, indeed very few men, are actually rapists, misogynist murderers, etc. The worst most of them do comes more from ignorance and privilege than actual ill intent. What #yesallwomen means is that this is still widespread enough that virtually all women have or will, at some point, experience at the very least threats.

                Men have threatened to "rape me straight," Kurenai. My sister *was* raped, when she was only 14. You know about the anti-trafficking work I do, and I would not wish some of the nightmares it's generated on my worst enemies. At the same time, most of the men in my life have been nothing but good to me; my brother is an excellent human being, for example, who does charity work and teaches music in central China.

                Do you get it now? It's true that #notallmen, indeed #notevenclosetoallmen, are like this, but #yesallwomen have been affected. Part of it is because the actual virulent men have a very wide reach; rapists tend to be serial for example.

                • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Monday March 27 2017, @07:31PM (1 child)

                  by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Monday March 27 2017, @07:31PM (#484817) Journal

                  Do you get it now?

                  No, I still don't get it, Azuma. Find the individuals who did those things. Why doesn't feminism focus on bringing those individuals to justice instead of overlooking their actions and focusing on collective retribution?

                  How do you think holding all assigned males, as a matter of policy in certain places, accountable for those things is going to help, assuming that you wish for a world where those things didn't happen?

                  What gives womyn-born-womyn the right to demand that my body be cut up at birth?¹

                  What gives womyn-born-womyn the right to get between my doctor and me?

                  What gives womyn-born-womyn the right to coerce me into sexual acts? Even if the womyn-born-womyn is personally not the one backing up that coercion with violence, even if the violent end of the bargain is in the hands of another assigned male, the womyn-born-womyn is still complicit with the person who will implement the violence, because she is the person demanding the sexual act.

                  The actions of your rape-threatener and your sister's actual rapist give you no rights over me, no matter how you gender me.

                  I don't think I will ever get it.

                  ¹ Note: I've spotted an AC going around today spamming on this subject. That's not me.

                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:58AM

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:58AM (#484973)

                    You're tilting at a straw feminist if you're trying to say I think like that. I find the collective guilt idea reprehensible, and don't personally apply it. There's a post below that may help explain my thinking a bit. But, I don't want any rights over you that aren't already there (and reciprocal) under plain, simple humanism.

                    To be clear, anyone using "butbut MUH FEMINISM" to justify some sort of violence done to you or your body or your sexual self is not only evil, they're hypocritical as hell on top of it, because the entire *point* of intersectionality in feminism is that a hell of a lot of problems women have are in part problems along other axes of discrimination such as race, class, geographic location, and yes, gender identity/expression. There is a multiplier effect too; a woman who is also black and living in a Muslim country is going to have more problems, both related to her being female and not, than a white, agnostic/secular woman in the Northeast. Those awful fucking TERFs who harmed you in Michigan are a prime example, and they ought to damn well *know better!*

                    I believe I have enough evidence that trans people such as yourself are not simply deluded or making it up; there was a study on brain scans showing MtF brains looked somewhere between the two sexes (statistically speaking; brains are a mosaic and there's no stereotypical male or female brain) and FtM brains looked rather male. This is real. You are valid. And this is another axis in the intersectionality bundle; gender nonconformers are hideously abused, partly because it ticks about half a dozen "violent disgust" boxes in the minds of RWNJs and their massive, overactive amygdalas.

                    In short, I'm *on your bloody side,* but like all other humans, I don't like being mischaracterized. If you think it's unfair for the TERFs and the venomous radicals to say all men are evil by nature, don't then turn around and do the opposite.

                • (Score: 2) by Spamalope on Monday March 27 2017, @08:07PM (6 children)

                  by Spamalope (5233) on Monday March 27 2017, @08:07PM (#484843) Homepage

                  virtually all women have or will, at some point, experience at the very least threats.

                  The same thing can be said about men who've been victims of the 'justice' of removing due process for men. Why is only one gender empowered?

                  Fixing the injustice by one group of people with new injustices against another group is no solution. It's no surprise that the second group will resent attempts to silence them. The two groups sharing a gender isn't an excuse, unless they're claiming gender based group membership as a pass.

                  I've been reprimanded, lost a raise and was reassigned for turning down a date.

                  I overheard three women planning the specifics of false harassment claims to make against a male co-worker because they wanted him replaced with someone 'hotter' (their words) (he was in his 50s, based on the conversation they wanted someone 'dateable' (also their words -shrug-)). They did so a few months later. I went to HR, and was threatened with termination if I ever spoke of it or was involved in any dispute with those three - and the harassment claims were backed up by HR after an 'investigation'.

                  Later those three threatened me with harassment charges unless I framed a co-worker. The specific threat would have been a felony, so the risk to me was termination and jail. I already knew the HR director would back them up.

                  I've been threatened with harassment charges unless I agreed to a tryst with a co-worker. The genders would have to be revered for the word 'rape' to be thrown around though, wouldn't it?

                  My peers have similar experiences.

                  How about we stop empowering assholes? Adding gender blinders is not an improvement!

                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:45AM (5 children)

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:45AM (#484964)

                    This one's for Kurenai as well as you, and I hope it's a bit of an eye-opener: feminism tends to label its collective demons "the patriarchy," but the word "kyriarchy" would be closer to the truth. And why is this? *Because the "patriarchy* chews up and spits out most of our boys and men too.*

                    THIS is what's gotten me kicked out of a fair number of feminist circles, though honestly, if they're not going to be sane and self-aware enough to admit that, I don't *want* to be part of those circles.

                    Do you notice who it is who's starting wars? Men. Who mostly dies in those wars? Soldier-wise, men. Who is it that's made nearly all the laws in this country, including the utterly shitty ones that discriminate based on race and money? Men. Who is it who suffers most of the ill effects of these laws? Men, especially poor men and black men?

                    What is the difference between the ones starting wars and the soldiers dying in them? The ones making the evil laws and the ones suffering for it? Money and power. NOT gonads or chromosomes. To me, feminism is one particularly important branch of humanism, and it's not one I let get in the way of that basic humanism. And it sucks complete ass that so many self-described feminists do, and no matter how much I tell them they're making things worse for all of us, *they don't listen.*

                    What happened to you was unequivocally *wrong,* absolutely wrong, and the women who did this to you have made this entire stupid damn battle of the sexes that much worse for that much longer because of it. If acknowledging this makes me a "bad feminist," then so be it.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:42AM (4 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:42AM (#485039)

                      *Because the "patriarchy* chews up and spits out most of our boys and men too.*

                      And feminism helps so much! Yeah right. Understand that men are nothing if they do not contribute to society in a meaningful way, that is and always will be the way of man.

                      Do you notice who it is who's starting wars? Men.

                      Hahaha, please, you think women are incapable of starting one? War is merely an extension to enforce policy.

                      Who mostly dies in those wars? Soldier-wise, men.

                      Yes, look at all the women signing up to die in a bloody trench somewhere. Look at all the women who want to die in a burning tank when an AP round penetrates the firing chamber. Look at all the women lining up to board the boat to a cold death at sea.
                      Look at the women given a choice not to die horribly by the patriarchy.

                      Who is it that's made nearly all the laws in this country, including the utterly shitty ones that discriminate based on race and money? Men

                      There were no female legislators, ever since the written history of man.

                      Who is it who suffers most of the ill effects of these laws? Men, especially poor men and black men?

                      It's as if women are more insulated from this terrible fate by simply marrying upwards!

                      What is the difference between the ones starting wars and the soldiers dying in them? The ones making the evil laws and the ones suffering for it? Money and power.

                      Sounds like someone who only has a cursory study of history. Understand this, Might makes Right, if you don't, someone else will.

                      To me, feminism is one particularly important branch of humanism, and it's not one I let get in the way of that basic humanism.

                      You feminists are all the same, only vying for more power for yourselves. Doesn't matter 1st wave to 4th wave, its all a power grab with weaponized empathy, always has been and always will be.

                      What happened to you was unequivocally *wrong,* absolutely wrong, and the women who did this to you have made this entire stupid damn battle of the sexes that much worse for that much longer because of it. If acknowledging this makes me a "bad feminist," then so be it.

                      Yes, yes you are bad. Please purge all of it. Men and women are not equal and never will be, men would be women too if they could be pregnant and give birth.

                      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:52AM (3 children)

                        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:52AM (#485061)

                        O~kay, uh, whoever you are? Chill. Seriously. I got a few Midol left over. Same offer I usually make Uzzard there, except he seems to prefer to medicate his cramps with shitty beer and...hell, I don't know, screwing his cousin or whatever they do where he's from.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:39AM (2 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:39AM (#485064)

                          Done feeling smug? Now, address the statements.

                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:25PM (1 child)

                            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:25PM (#485266)

                            I'll respond for her point by point:

                                    *Because the "patriarchy* chews up and spits out most of our boys and men too.*

                            And feminism helps so much! Yeah right. Understand that men are nothing if they do not contribute to society in a meaningful way, that is and always will be the way of man.
                            YOU'RE DUMB AND DON'T LISTEN / HAVE READING COMPREHENSION

                                    Do you notice who it is who's starting wars? Men.

                            Hahaha, please, you think women are incapable of starting one? War is merely an extension to enforce policy.
                            YOU'RE DUMB AND DON'T READ HISTORY

                                    Who mostly dies in those wars? Soldier-wise, men.

                            Yes, look at all the women signing up to die in a bloody trench somewhere. Look at all the women who want to die in a burning tank when an AP round penetrates the firing chamber. Look at all the women lining up to board the boat to a cold death at sea.
                            Look at the women given a choice not to die horribly by the patriarchy.
                            EXACTLY THE POINT DUMB DUMB, MEN ARE PRIMARILY THE FIRST VICTIMS OF WAR. THEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN LEFT ON THEIR OWN.

                                    Who is it that's made nearly all the laws in this country, including the utterly shitty ones that discriminate based on race and money? Men

                            There were no female legislators, ever since the written history of man.
                            DUMB DUMB NEEDS TO STUDY STATISTICS BETTER

                                    Who is it who suffers most of the ill effects of these laws? Men, especially poor men and black men?

                            It's as if women are more insulated from this terrible fate by simply marrying upwards
                            POINT STILL STANDS, MEN SUFFER TOO DUMMY

                                    What is the difference between the ones starting wars and the soldiers dying in them? The ones making the evil laws and the ones suffering for it? Money and power.

                            Sounds like someone who only has a cursory study of history. Understand this, Might makes Right, if you don't, someone else will.
                            YOU'RE STILL BEING AN ABSOLUTE DUMMY HARHAR

                                    To me, feminism is one particularly important branch of humanism, and it's not one I let get in the way of that basic humanism.

                            You feminists are all the same, only vying for more power for yourselves. Doesn't matter 1st wave to 4th wave, its all a power grab with weaponized empathy, always has been and always will be.
                            YOU'RE A DUMMY AND NOW AN IDIOT! WEAPONIZED EMPATHY? RETURN YOUR BRAIN, IS DEFECTIVE

                                    What happened to you was unequivocally *wrong,* absolutely wrong, and the women who did this to you have made this entire stupid damn battle of the sexes that much worse for that much longer because of it. If acknowledging this makes me a "bad feminist," then so be it.

                            Yes, yes you are bad. Please purge all of it. Men and women are not equal and never will be, men would be women too if they could be pregnant and give birth.
                            SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE HAS SOME SERIOUS IDENTITY ISSUES... MIGHT WANNA LOOK INTO THAT BEFORE YOUR DUMMY BRAINS DOES YOU IN

                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @01:04AM

                              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @01:04AM (#485592)

                              So you don't have anything to refute with, bye Felicia.

                • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:58AM

                  by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:58AM (#484974) Homepage Journal

                  Not my fight, but i had to mod you insightful for the not all men thing.
                  Unfortunately, some men

                  --
                  --- That's not flying: that's... falling... with more luck than I have. ---
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 28 2017, @01:47AM (22 children)

          That's liberty for you, yo. He can be a drama queen if he wants to and it's nobody's damn business to be telling him he can't or shouldn't because it isn't in line with their narrative.

          --
          We've got #BieberFever [soylentnews.org]!
          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:10AM (21 children)

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:10AM (#485032)

            Compared to you she's a fucking Rhodes Scholar, Uzzard. You specifically chose to reply to this to use the wrong pronoun just to be a cock, too. Aren't there some cheap beers waiting to be swilled and some firearms to be irresponsibly discharged after the swilling of same? Piss off.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 28 2017, @10:24AM (20 children)

              No, sweety, your gender is not something you can change. You can play dress-up all you like, because Merica, but that's all it is. I shall not play the pronoun game for anyone's amusement.

              --
              We've got #BieberFever [soylentnews.org]!
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:30PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:30PM (#485273)

                The Mighty Scuzzard fails biology, news at 11.

                I shall not play the pronoun game for anyone's amusement

                Well we can all see that you play it for your own amusement so fuck off you hypocritical turd monkey.

              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:34PM (17 children)

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:34PM (#485281)

                No, sweetie, your chromosomal sex and to a lesser extent your phenotype are things you can't change. Gender identity is a different thing. It's an epiphenomenon; it supervenes on your genes, your hormonal environment in utero, possibly epigenetic and environmental factors, and the society around you. In some societies I'd be considered "third gender" or "two-spirited" or whatever rather than "cis-female" because of the cultural lens I'd be viewed through seeing me as, essentially, "woman with many of a man's desires."

                Statistically speaking, gender identity corresponds to karyotype corresponds to gross morphology, i.e., someone with a 46,XX genotype will usually look noticeably female and conform to a large degree to society's idea of what it is to be a woman. But as in any distribution, there are outliers.

                Trans people have some sort of birth defect, something that manifests as gender nonconformity in the presence of all the factors listed above. Based on my experiences with them, they don't seem to be making it up, or insane; I've got a friend from an old job, Aaron, who was born Paige. He describes going through a woman's puberty as an absolute nightmare, like being the centerpoint of an especially gory, psychologically-scarring horror movie. I have to take his word for it, as it's outside my experience, but he's much happier and calmer on T after hysterectomy. Nice beard coming in too.

                So just because you don't or won't understand something doesn't mean it's not real. It just means you're an asshole, and deliberately so since anyone with a triple-digit IQ could understand the above explanation.

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:30PM (16 children)

                  I know you really, really want to define it that way so it fits your narrative but I reject your attempts to do so. Gender is a synonym for sex and has been since the word was created. Take your SJW word redefining bullshit and peddle it to someone who'll buy it.

                  --
                  We've got #BieberFever [soylentnews.org]!
                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:25PM (11 children)

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:25PM (#485372)

                    This isn't a new concept to me, jackoff. Do you think the idea of two-spirit or Hijra was invented in the 21st century or something? Stuff like this is older than Jesus. God, you're too dumb to even know you're dumb. Stage 4 Dunningkrugeritis is a hell of a disease...

                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday March 29 2017, @09:26AM (10 children)

                      And yet, you still do not get to redefine words to suit yourself.

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                      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 30 2017, @01:26AM (9 children)

                        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 30 2017, @01:26AM (#486286)

                        Those aren't my words or my concepts. Would it kill you for once in your miserable, selfish, wasted little life to do a little research of your own? You're fucking wrong; admit it, learn from your mistakes, and stop being wrong.

                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 30 2017, @02:36AM (8 children)

                          You do not get to redefine words to suit yourself.

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                          We've got #BieberFever [soylentnews.org]!
                          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 30 2017, @03:50PM (7 children)

                            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 30 2017, @03:50PM (#486534)

                            Are you aphasic or just deliberately refusing to read for comprehension?

                            These. Are. Not. My. Words.

                            The idea of gender-variant individuals goes back to fucking Sumeria, Uzzard. The ancient, *really* ancient, Near East. And these are just the written examples we have; it's almost a certainty that actual gender-nonconformers have existed throughout all of humanity's biological history. Here's just one of *many* examples: http://www.ancient.eu/article/941/ [ancient.eu]

                            Read my first post closer: gender identity supervenes on a number of properties both closer to the "bare metal" (like the hormonal environment you experienced in utero) and further away, such as society's expectations for what "person with wide hips and breasts" or "person with a penis" should act like. It's not purely internal and it's not traceable to one single physical characteristic.

                            Greedy reductionism is an unreliable heuristic for nondeterministic systems. You should know this. Either update your firmware or stop talking about things you aren't competent to.

                            • (Score: 1, Redundant) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 30 2017, @04:08PM (6 children)

                              You made the assertion. I refuted it with a dictionary. Live with it.

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                              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 30 2017, @04:49PM (5 children)

                                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 30 2017, @04:49PM (#486586)

                                Because we never ever update our knowledge, right? That's why your dictionary was written in oracle bone script on a turtle shell with a lump of charcoal, of course. ...dumbass.

                                These are not "my" assertions. 5,000 years of history (and around 150 of actual medical and psychological research) are looming over you from a great height, telling you you are wrong. And here you are, sitting there with your fingers in your ears running in circles chanting "lalalala i can't hear you fake news narrative hurr hurr."

                                Give it up already. You were wrong to begin with; you're also showing yourself to be perverse and willfully ignorant, elevating your own fear responses to the status of God.

                                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 30 2017, @05:54PM (4 children)

                                  We never, ever let SJWs redefine words to suit themselves. No. Use it that way all you like but I'll call you on it every time you try that bullshit on me.

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                                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 30 2017, @06:02PM (3 children)

                                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 30 2017, @06:02PM (#486653)

                                    You, er, haven't been reading a single fucking thing I've written, have you? Make like an Abit mobo and quit posting; you're done here.

                                    • (Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 30 2017, @06:14PM (2 children)

                                      Just like a SJW. Get spanked and declare victory. Sad, really.

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                                      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 30 2017, @06:23PM

                                        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 30 2017, @06:23PM (#486667)

                                        You're delusional, and everyone reading this thread can see it. Literally your entire post history for this subthread is "nuh uh" and "fuck you SJW" and "Hurr hurr this here dictionary sez..."

                                        Whereas I've pointed you to primary sources (yes, the blog post cites an academic paper) that show you are not only wrong, but have been wrong since before Judaism existed.

                                        And your response to this? Ironically, and darkly hilariously, it is *precisely what you just accused me of in your last post.*

                                        I'm actually interested, in the way one is interested in venomous animals or lethal diseases, in what could possibly make you so wrongheaded. Oh, I know you can't be saved, and that's fine, but out of curiosity I'd like to figure out what makes you tick.

                                      • (Score: 2) by melikamp on Thursday March 30 2017, @09:07PM

                                        by melikamp (1886) on Thursday March 30 2017, @09:07PM (#486748) Journal

                                        Hahahahahaha, OMG, what fun this thread is.

                                        Hey, Mr. Dictionary, what the hell is "SJW", anyway? You are obviously using it as a pejorative. Which part of it do you actually find deplorable? Is being "social" deplorable? Is "justice? Is "warrior"? Are you saying people are awful because they fight for justice? Because they fight for issues which affect the entire society? Or because they dare to think about justice in the context of the entire society? What about a Donny-boy supporter who is actively fighting on the side of ICE against illegal immigrants? What about unlicensed mercs with attack dogs who drew blood in Dakota? Are they fighting for what they see as "social justice" (the pipeline was declared legal, while immigrant workers in question are not), or are they bigoted terrorists fighting for their own personal well-being at the expense of minorities? Since you don't call them SJWs, you must mean the latter, right?

                  • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday March 29 2017, @04:23AM (3 children)

                    by aristarchus (2645) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 29 2017, @04:23AM (#485674) Journal

                    your SJW word redefining bullshit

                    Funny, do you mean something like redefining Social Justice as a bad thing? That kind of redefining bullshit? (Though, to be fair, I fail to see the relevance of male Tauroid excrement to the issue at hand. Redefinition run amook? )

                    --
                    #freearistarchus!!!
                    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Justin Case on Wednesday March 29 2017, @12:49PM (2 children)

                      by Justin Case (4239) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 29 2017, @12:49PM (#485845)

                      redefining Social Justice as a bad thing

                      Not sure which side you're taking here but "social justice" is a bad thing; no redefinition needed.

                      Oh sure it is a lovely fantasy, but as implemented in the real world it requires Actual Injustice. Government can't give to one except by taking from another. "Social justice" activists (deliberately avoiding the SJW label here) ignore the taking half of the equation so they can praise themselves for their good aspirations and shrug off responsibility for the harm.

                      --
                      When the government can crack your encryption, criminals can crack your encryption and drain your bank account.
                      • (Score: 2) by melikamp on Thursday March 30 2017, @09:27PM (1 child)

                        by melikamp (1886) on Thursday March 30 2017, @09:27PM (#486755) Journal

                        Social justice is the fair and just relation between the individual and society.

                        Oh that's bad now? You don't like that? You like it when individuals are free to abuse and dominate society (see any despot, starting with Adolf and Iosif), while the society is free to abuse and dominate individuals (see any despotic regime, starting with those of Adolf and Iosif). That's a valid point of view, and a fairly popular one too, but I hope you realize it puts your political philosophy right next to that of National Socialists.

                        • (Score: 2) by Justin Case on Thursday March 30 2017, @11:07PM

                          by Justin Case (4239) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 30 2017, @11:07PM (#486802)

                          There is no "society"; that is a groupthink imaginary term.

                          There are only individuals.

                          The lofty goals of "social justice" are (never really) achieved by taking from one individual to give to another. Taking what belongs to one, by force, is unjust. The "social justice" people conveniently sweep their violent unjust foundation under the rug hoping nobody will notice.

                          abuse and dominate individuals

                          Yep, that's what "social justice" advocates do to their victims. Don't know where you got that I was in favor of that domination however.

                          --
                          When the government can crack your encryption, criminals can crack your encryption and drain your bank account.
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