President Donald Trump disclosed highly classified information to Russia's foreign minister about a planned Islamic State operation, two U.S. officials said on Monday, plunging the White House into another controversy just months into Trump's short tenure in office.
The intelligence, shared at a meeting last week with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak, was supplied by a U.S. ally in the fight against the militant group, both officials with knowledge of the situation said.
The White House declared the allegations, first reported by the Washington Post, incorrect.
[...] One of the officials said the intelligence discussed by Trump in his meeting with Lavrov was classified "Top Secret" and held in a secure "compartment" to which only a handful of intelligence officials have access.
After Trump's disclosure of the information, which one of the officials described as spontaneous, officials immediately called the CIA and the National Security Agency, both of which have agreements with a number of allied intelligence services around the world, and informed them what had happened.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-idUSKCN18B2MX
Also at The Washington Post and The New York Times.
[Update.] According to Ars Technica, President Trump then proceeded to Tweet information about this meeting:
Statements from President Trump on Twitter and from White House National Security Advisor Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster did not directly contradict details initially reported by the Washington Post late on Monday. McMaster said that no sources or methods were exposed in the conversation. However, the unnamed officials cited in the Post report were concerned that Trump's citing of the exact location "in the Islamic State’s territory where the US intelligence partner detected the threat" could expose the source. Tuesday morning, Trump tweeted:
As President I wanted to share with Russia (at an openly scheduled W.H. meeting) which I have the absolute right to do, facts pertaining....
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 16, 2017
...to terrorism and airline flight safety. Humanitarian reasons, plus I want Russia to greatly step up their fight against ISIS & terrorism.
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 16, 2017
Trump also lashed out at the intelligence community for leaking about his actions:
I have been asking Director Comey & others, from the beginning of my administration, to find the LEAKERS in the intelligence community.....
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 16, 2017
Related Stories
In an interview on "Fox News Sunday," [U.S. Homeland Security Secretary John] Kelly said the United States planned to "raise the bar" on airline security, including tightening screening of carry-on items.
"That's the thing that they are obsessed with, the terrorists, the idea of knocking down an airplane in flight, particularly if it's a U.S. carrier, particularly if it's full of U.S. people."
In March, the government imposed restrictions on large electronic devices in aircraft cabins on flights from 10 airports, including the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and Turkey.
Kelly said the move would be part of a broader airline security effort to combat what he called "a real sophisticated threat." He said no decision had been made as to the timing of any ban.
"We are still following the intelligence," he said, "and are in the process of defining this, but we're going to raise the bar generally speaking for aviation much higher than it is now."
Airlines are concerned that a broad ban on laptops may erode customer demand. But none wants an incident aboard one of its airplanes.
Fox News has a transcript of the interview (archived copy).
Previous stories:
President Trump Revealed Classified Information to Russia; and Tweets it to the World [Updated]
"Sources" Fear Terrorists will get Past Airport Security with Laptop Bombs
US Bans Tablets and Laptops on Flights From Eight Muslim-Majority Countries
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:26AM (30 children)
From TFA we find out what this classified information was:
So it is classified that the president is "briefed on great intel every day". I assume there must be a classification above top secret for the real stuff then? A top secret classification has apparently become meaningless.
(Score: 2, Troll) by kaszz on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:36AM (28 children)
You got the hint right here:
about a planned Islamic State operation
The question then becomes if it's about something USA planned to do towards IS, or if it's something that IS planned to do. Secondly did it expose some event or source. Loosing information on a event is a one time. Loosing a source is way worse.
(Score: 5, Informative) by zocalo on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:36PM (10 children)
Losing *a* source is bad enough, but the potential here is for entire *countries* to consider whether it might be a good idea to start being more careful about what information they share with the US, particularly if it might put their sources and methods at risk, and that applies whether there is any truth to the story or not. The most likely result is that the US will now have an even less complete picture of what's going on on the ground, which in turn makes it more likely that someone will be able to pull off something that might otherwise have been prevented.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by AnonTechie on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:58PM
Israel Said to Be Source of Secret Intelligence Trump Gave to Russians:
The classified intelligence that President Trump disclosed in a meeting last week with Russian officials at the White House was provided by Israel, according to a current and a former American official familiar with how the United States obtained the information. The revelation adds a potential diplomatic complication to an episode that has renewed questions about how the White House handles sensitive intelligence.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/world/middleeast/israel-trump-classified-intelligence-russia.html [nytimes.com]
Albert Einstein - "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:43PM (2 children)
Losing *a* source is bad enough, but the potential here is for entire *countries* to consider whether it might be a good idea to start being more careful about what information they share with the US,
Its not just Israel that might shutdown sharing. Its every single ally because they have no reason to think it won't happen to them too.
Meanwhile, back in Moscow, Putin can't stop doing his Mister Burns imitation, rubbing his hands and saying "Exxxcellent."
(Score: 3, Informative) by zocalo on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:17PM (1 child)
As for Moscow and Putin; yeah, I'll bet they're loving this. If there's even the slightest clue in their transcript that could lead someone to deduce something about the source of the intel and they disclose it publically... The US needs to get on top of this ASAP, because depending on what was actually said (or not) Trump may have inadvertantly provided Moscow not just with the means to drive a wedge between the intelligence communities of the US and its allies, but to do so over Syria; an area where the US and Moscow have major differences of opinion. What's not for them to like?
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by davester666 on Friday May 19 2017, @07:41AM
Given how Trump is reported to demand information, namely, it must be boiled down to a single page of bullet points, how can you give him enough information to even remotely do his job in any sort of reasonable way?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:32PM (3 children)
Fuck Israel. They should be next on the nuking block.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:44PM (2 children)
Do we have the right nuke granularity, thought?
You need to decide if you want to nuke the 20% of Israeli Palestinians, the 80% of Israeli Jews, both, or the 50-50 including the Occupied Territories and colonies.
Would you rather nuke Greater Israel or just Green-line Israel? How about Gaza and the Golan Heights?
Nothing's ever easy down there. We need better Apartheid and formal Bantustans, so we can carpet-bomb more efficiently.
(Score: 1) by butthurt on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:19PM
The West Bank and Gaza have sturdy walls to separate them from Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_barrier [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier [wikipedia.org]
Ciskei had a mere fence.
https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,976551,00.html [time.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @07:02PM
Run a few simulations using NUKEMAP [nuclearsecrecy.com].
I detonated [nuclearsecrecy.com] an Ivy Mike (10.4 Mt) airburst above Tel Aviv. 1,520,940 dead and 1,227,590 injured. Unfortunately had some 3rd degree burns out in the West Bank, but we've got smaller nukes than an "Ivy Mike" we could use for more precise targeting like say lobbing a W80 (150 kt) over there.
(Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:05PM (1 child)
Yes, Israel may get mad at us and stop accepting billions of dollars in defense money and equipment.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:27PM
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 3, Disagree) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:59PM (14 children)
Loose information and loose sources are almost as bad as loose women.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:15PM (3 children)
Loose information and loose sources are almost as bad as loose women.
Is this the kind of loose women [youtube.com] you're talking about?
(Score: 4, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:28PM (2 children)
No, not really. But every time I see "loose" used when "lose" ought to be, I want to reflexively yell, "So practice tying better knots!"
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:51PM (1 child)
Pro-tip: When making a spelling flame, quote the damn spelling error so people can realize you are just being a spelling nazi and not waste their time trying to divine meaning from your pedantry,
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Thursday May 18 2017, @03:41PM
Pro-tip: When making a spelling flame, quote the damn spelling error so people can realize you are just being a spelling nazi and not waste their time trying to divine meaning from your pedantry,
Pro-tip: When complaining about pedantry, complain about the *correct* issue (in this case, usage rather than spelling).
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:23PM (9 children)
WTF are you saying here? Are you saying that Israel is the villain here, not the victim?
Or are you just a waste of oxygen?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:41PM
What if Israeli Secret Intelligence Service [veteranstoday.com] are both the villain and deserved victim?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:46PM (5 children)
> Or are you just a waste of oxygen?
If you read his posts it becomes clear P666 just as idiotic as any pepe.
The guy did vote for trump after all.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:54PM (2 children)
Ditto. His story about being a Clinton staffer in the 90s is great. He's just shilling.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:41PM (1 child)
Clinton Foundation employee, in the 00's. I've been inside Bill's super-secret love nest on the roof of the Clinton Presidential library in Little Rock. True story.
You're just jealous.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:13PM
So first you were a employee on clinton's campaign and now an employee of the clinton foundation.
The story keeps getting better and better!
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:39PM (1 child)
That's true. Every word. I think. Do you mean "pepe," as in "Mexican?" Or do you mean, "pepe," as in, "Hello, my peeps!"?
Anyway, I am stupid. Dumb as a post. I should be smart, like you, and post AC. Then nobody will know my secret shame, that I am truly, truly stupid.
That is a fact. I did. Smart people voted for Hillary. Surpassing people voted for Stein. That neither of those candidates won proves for all time that their voters are smart, and everyone else is dumb, dumb, dumb. And, while we're at it, pantsuits are cool. They're very cool. Everyone who doesn't wear them is terribly unfashionable, and uncool. And a misogynist. QED.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:15PM
> That's true. Every word. I think. Do you mean "pepe," as in "Mexican?" Or do you mean, "pepe," as in, "Hello, my peeps!"?
https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=pepe&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gbv=1 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:30PM (1 child)
? None of the above. I was pulling an oblique grammar nazi by pointing out "loose" should have been "lose" in the Parent.
Sorry.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:56PM
where's the -1 whoosh moderation?
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 18 2017, @08:58AM (1 child)
Incredible that pointing out information inside the article and clarify what permutations that are possible is being "Troll". The article is or was very sparse on details. And the only piece of real information is easier to discuss when it's pointed out specifically such that the actual circumstances may be evaluated properly.
One can get the feeling some people are actually trolls themselves for trying to derail factual information on current events.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 18 2017, @11:52AM
Partisan uses selective citation of facts to imply misleading conclusions and is surprised its misleading implications are considered misleading.
News at 11!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:33PM
Top Secret Graphic Novels?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:35AM (3 children)
Considering that when it comes to Trump, everything we hear - from either side - is bullshit...
Let me guess - the classified information about an ISIS attack that Trump told Russia was something like "these are the planned flight paths we would prefer you not to fire any missiles at".
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:53AM (2 children)
This whole story needs a big [Citation needed].
(Score: 4, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:27PM (1 child)
This whole story needs a big [Citation needed].
"As President I wanted to share with Russia (at an openly scheduled W.H. meeting) which I have the absolute right to do, facts pertaining....
...to terrorism and airline flight safety. Humanitarian reasons, plus I want Russia to greatly step up their fight against ISIS & terrorism."
Donald J Trump
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:08PM
So were these facts discovered by the intelligence service of another country and shared with the US with the understanding that they wouldn't be shared? Trump isn't speaking to that.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by garrulus on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:47AM (9 children)
nt.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by garrulus on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:49AM
http://voxday.blogspot.nl/2017/05/curiouser-and-curiouser.html [blogspot.nl]
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:35PM (5 children)
Fuck you.
Seriously.
Assange was a huge richard for starting that conspiracy theory - which he was shamed into retract.
And then Fox news was an entire bag of richards when they made up everything.
But Tuesday afternoon, Wheeler told CNN he had no evidence to suggest Rich had contacted Wikileaks before his death.
Wheeler instead said he only learned about the possible existence of such evidence through the reporter he spoke to for the FoxNews.com story. He explained that the comments he made to WTTG-TV were intended to simply preview Fox News' Tuesday story. The WTTG-TV news director did not respond to multiple requests for comment.
"I only got that [information] from the reporter at Fox News," Wheeler told CNN.
Earlier Tuesday, Brad Bauman, a spokesman for the Rich family, released a statement in which he said the family had "seen no evidence" to suggest Seth Rich had been in contact with Wikileaks.
Bauman told CNN the outlets that had run with the story "have shown over and over again that they are willing to lie and manipulate the facts" to further "their own political end."
"I think it's important for everyone at Fox News to be careful with this information and how this story breaks because using the legacy of a murder victim in such an overtly political way is morally reprehensible," he said.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/16/media/seth-rich-family-response-claims-of-wikileaks-contact/index.html [cnn.com]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:39PM (4 children)
Right now Soylentnews has a story submission claiming that the "family" has denied things. Here is what wikileaks has to say about the "family" representative, and it is damning:
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763852003093217280?lang=en [twitter.com]
The actual family has not denied anything. (Know any soylentnews editors? We don't need to parrot the DNC's emergency PR spin.)
Everything looks really suspicious: shot in the back, nothing taken but declared a robbery, was talking but then dies in the hospital (a 5% chance for similar injuries who arrive with a heartbeat), FBI grabs his laptop within hours (not normal for a shooting on the street), the DC police are told to stand down from the investigation, in the past 9 years Seth is the only person killed within 1500 feet of that spot, he had enemies (having leaked DNC email to wikileaks), and... here is a particularly relevant email from Podesta, Hillary's campaign manager:
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/792875315920048128 [twitter.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:20PM (2 children)
> Here is what wikileaks has to say about the "family" representative, and it is damning:
> The actual family has not denied anything.
Check the date. Wikileaks made that claim almost a year ago. He's still speaking for the family.
Your conspiracy freak shit is tiring as fuck.
But thanks for giving me one more reason to distrust wikileaks.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:54PM (1 child)
The guy is paid to do emergency crisis public relations for the democrats.
Maybe the family still likes democrats, maybe they fear for their lives, maybe they are getting paid... whatever. Isn't it odd that he is involved?
It's as if the democrats really do have something shady to cover up, and are willing to pay money to do so.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:41PM
> Maybe the family still likes democrats, maybe they fear for their lives, maybe they are getting paid... whatever. Isn't it odd that he is involved?
No it is not odd at all. Seth Rich worked for the DNC. A murder is not a common event. It is reasonable that the DNC would take it seriously and wikileak's attempt to spin it into a conspiracy made a horroble situation into a crisis for the family because of all the assholes LIKE YOU who came out of the woodwork in response. The last thing the family needs is to get pizzagated.
Stop being a fucking tool.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 18 2017, @03:50AM
> The actual family has not denied anything
SETH RICH'S BROTHER HAS DENIED EVERYTHING
Aaron Rich, Mr. Rich’s brother, said in an email Wednesday that Mr. Wheeler had “discredited himself as an objective investigator” and had lost the confidence of the family. He said that the politicization of his brother’s death had been “painful” and “debilitating.”
“Why everyone feels the need to use his death for their own motives is beyond us,” he wrote. “We simply want to find his killers and grieve. Instead, we are stuck having to constantly fight against non-facts, baseless allegations, and general stupidity to defend my brother’s name and legacy.”
He continued, “This only prevents us from moving forward in our grieving and distracts from answering the only question that matters — Who murdered my brother and my parents’ son, Seth?”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/us/seth-rich-dnc-wikileaks.html [nytimes.com]
> FBI grabs his laptop within hours
THE FBI DID NOT TAKE HIS LAPTOP AND WAS NEVER INVOLVED
Speaking with Newsweek on Wednesday, Braud Bauman, the family’s representative, says he also has knowledge that the FBI is not investigating Rich’s murder. “We have said all along that the fundamental facts that underline yesterday’s story were false, including the FBI’s investigation, which does not exist, and their role in ever having, seeing or otherwise possessing computer equipment or other equipment that belonged to Seth Rich, either in a personal or professional capacity,”
http://www.newsweek.com/seth-rich-dnc-staffer-wikileaks-leaked-emails-fbi-610383 [newsweek.com]
> the DC police are told to stand down from the investigation,
THE DC POLICE WERE NOT TOLD TO STAND DOWN AND ARE STILL INVESTIGATING
an investigation by Washington’s Metropolitan Police Department remains active, according to the department. “We continue to work with the family to bring closure to this case, as we do with all homicide investigations,” a police spokesperson said in a statement.
http://www.newsweek.com/seth-rich-dnc-staffer-wikileaks-leaked-emails-fbi-610383 [newsweek.com]
> having leaked DNC email to wikileaks
HE DID NOT LEAK ANYTHING TO WIKILEAKS
WikiLeaks backed off the claim, saying his statement "should not be taken to imply that Seth Rich was a source for WikiLeaks," nor that his death was connected to the leaked emails.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexcampbell/seth-rich-family-refutes-report [buzzfeed.com]
> here is a particularly relevant email from Podesta, Hillary's campaign manager:
THAT EMAIL SAYS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT SETH RICH
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:00PM (1 child)
Your fallacy is: tu quoque [yourlogicalfallacyis.com].
One bad act does not excuse another bad act. Evidence that Hillary Clinton is a lying and possibly murderous scumbag does not in any way demonstrate that Donald Trump is not a lying and possibly murderous scumbag, and vice versa. For the simple reason, of course, that they could both be lying and possibly murderous scumbags.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 18 2017, @05:14AM
You know, its not really a tu quoque to say "this is a distraction from the real story."
Its just plain old conspiracy theoryism.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by garrulus on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:51AM (22 children)
He basically has immunity and can single handedly declassify info on the fly.
But it's irrelevant since he never leaked anything according to witnesses.
(Score: 5, Touché) by c0lo on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:04PM (2 children)
So little trust in your President!
When it comes to disclosing confidential info to the Russians, who should you trust: the witnesses (who said he didn't) or the President himself (who admitted on Twitter he did)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:26PM (1 child)
on Twitter
The stuff he says on twitter is smoke he's blowing up the media's ass. Same deal with the press briefings. He's taking them on a wild ride and they are too dumb and docile to care or realize.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Demose on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:54PM
He tried to blackmail a witness on twitter as well. Is being charged with witness tampering just another part of his masterful plan for 238d Super-Mega-Jenga? It's unfortunate then that he's playing politics instead, the strategies don't really translate all that well.
(Score: 3, Troll) by VLM on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:55PM (8 children)
Close to the real story.
First of all we spy on each other so what we know, the Chinese and Russians probably know because they're spying. I suspect nobody learned anything.
The second truth is I've been involved in joint military things (nothing exciting) but I can assure you if some visiting Central American soldier wants to know when we break for lunch, it never went up to his prez, to our prez and back down again. We just did it, just kinda talked it over. I am willing to guess this isn't the first time in the last two decades that someone in the USA talked to someone in Russia about ISIS, LOL.
The above implies the real story isn't that we told the Russians something about ISIS, its that in public, every heavily manipulated lefty journalist is screaming at the top of their lungs that at the highest levels the USA and Russia are working together against ISIS, which is an interesting signal to send to ISIS and Israel. Obviously Israel is freaking out about that and they don't like it, but F them, America first, Israel second (or even later?).
Remember that Trump controls the lefty press post-election almost as well as Hillary and the DNC controlled the press before the election. When Trump wants to send a public message to ISIS and Israel, he doesn't issue a press release that gets ignored like an old fashioned neo-cuck republican from the old days, Trump uses his mind control powers to get ten thousand insane legacy media journalists to absolutely scream and bellow whatever message he wants to send. Its kinda like using a cannon to swat a mosquito but whatever.
Oh you didn't get the memo about the new TPS report headers? Let me get ten thousand angry left wing journalists to scream at the top of their lungs for days about the TPS report header changes, just so you'll notice, ha know.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:06PM (3 children)
I'm not quite following you. USA and Russia working together sends a strong signal to ISIS, but why Israel? Israel doesn't like Assad, but they don't like ISIS either. An Islamic State on their border is as bad or worse than an Assad-controlled Syria.
Unless you're implying Trump is using it to gain leverage over Israel in peace talks with the Palestinians?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:46PM (2 children)
A destabilized Syria is a Syria not interested in re-enacting the events of '67 or '73. Or however unlikely it was before destabilization, the less likely after, in addition to more time.
Of course a destabilized enough state leads to terror attacks in Europe and USA so what benefits Israel does not benefit the west in that sense.
Also historically "everyone" in the freaking middle east has played the cold war game of playing the Americans off against the Russians for decades, so shaking hands and working together on ISIS is super-destabilizing.
Its interesting to think Saudi Arabia is pretty close to falling due to the end of oil production, and after that happens other than politics there is no longer a strategic US interest in the middle east. It'll be Iran as a regional power and its Shia buddies in Syria vs the rest of the middle east plus or minus Russia. Then if it does turn out to be Russia vs Iran, our strategic ally for whatever interference we're still involved in, will be Iran and that'll be strange bedfellows. Won't that be interesting to watch unfold.
This is why the neocons are pounding for attacking Syria and preferably Iran, because either we beat them today and Israel rules them and tell us what to do as we oppose Russia, or we ally with Iran and Syria against Russia and Israel can pound sand until they send us some oil. Essentially we have to have a war with Syria and Iran like yesterday if possible or else the middlemen are about to get squeezed out of the picture, and since they totally control the media and banking industries this will be messy.
Then there's the bigger picture puzzle of we have a worldwide naval dominance trading empire (Today we're kinda like England in about 1914) and we had to oppose the land-locked empire on the other side of the planet because "they formenting communist rebellion" but US vs Russia is really an Athens vs Sparta thing. But they gave up on communism decades ago and the only commies left are now in charge of USA media and academia in general. So we're pretty close to washing our hands of the whole thing and "have fun with your land empire on the other side of the planet". Once the oil's gone, once China does its impression of their own great depression, the middle east and the other side of the planet is only as important as something like the Crimea so "eh".
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:03PM (1 child)
OK, so bad for Israel in the sense that they could lose control of their all-important client state, the US? Maybe. But didn't they already blow all their chits on the Saddam takedown? I don't think they can drag America into Iran at this point, as much as it seems they have been successful in preventing the take-down the much more deserving Kim Jong-Un. That guy is testing nuclear weapons and ICBMs both.
Academia is the last redoubt of the red diaper babies, but it's strange to hear the media called commies. They're all owned by giant media conglomerates, and surely they have no interest in collectivization.
I wonder that, too. Will empires still be needed when we all produce our energy locally and decide we all have enough plastic crap from China to last us several lifetimes?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by cubancigar11 on Thursday May 18 2017, @08:56AM
The media houses are owned by conglomerates, and the conglomerates only look at their Excel sheet. Academia drives the indoctrination and many of the young, gullible and not-very-intelligent kind of people end up doing journalism.
Power is not a necessity for most people, it is a goal in itself. Never underestimate the lengths of politics a person is willing to do, to gather more power.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:32PM
It would be gratifying to see that substantiated. But I'm not hopeful. I kept waiting for proof of the 10-dimensional chess fellow progressives kept promising Obama was playing, the rope-a-dope he was putting the Republicans through, and it turned out he was yet another Deep State toady; the real rope-a-dope had been run on America. Again.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:33PM (1 child)
So, exactly what message does accidentally telling the Russians state secrets send?
(Score: 1, Troll) by VLM on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:34PM
Only accidental in a journalist fake news sense.
Historically everyone in the middle east has been playing the Russians and USA off against each other for generations. Now at the very highest levels in the most public way imaginable, admittedly completely symbolically, we're working together. That's new and pretty interesting.
You have to realize that it was only a generation ago we were making Rambo movies about actual CIA activities of arming Afghanis to attack the Russian invaders. Thats one of those movies that was like "eh" for its first decades of existence and got really trippy after the turn of the century. I'm told by boomers that likewise I'll never understand Dr Strangelove movie because I was too young when the cold war "officially" ended. There was a time when that weird Rambo movie was just late night filler on independent syndication TV channels, I donno late 80s or so.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:07PM
The above implies the real story isn't that we told the Russians something about ISIS, its that in public, every heavily manipulated lefty journalist is screaming at the top of their lungs that at the highest levels the USA and Russia are working together against ISIS
Nice straw man you put up there to attack.
You don't know what information that President Trump told, and I don't either. It could be something as banal as "ISIS wants to attack the US." If this is the case, it very much would be the case of the media making a mountain out of a molehill.
On the other hand, it could be something like, "ISIS is planning on bombing Flight UA1234 on May 16 at 2:25PM using an Lenovo Laptop" which only 3 people know about... 1 of whom was an informer to the UK/Israel/France/Argentina/wherever, and whose life will suddenly become very uncomfortable. Even worse, everybody will see how that person disappeared and think twice about approaching foreign intelligence services when the next plot of "bomb the Vatican and kill hundreds of innocents" would otherwise have caused them to have second thoughts.
There is a reason why intelligence professionals are very careful about what they disclose and how. For a President to cavalierly disclose classified information is irresponsible in the extreme. What happens in schools is equally true here: those who can't keep a secret quickly find out that their classmates stop telling them secrets.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:57PM (1 child)
But it's irrelevant since he never leaked anything according to witnesses.
Are you kidding?
The head of the National Security Council, General McMaster, who was in the room when it happened, literally said:
"The president wasn’t even aware of where this information came from. He wasn’t briefed on the source."
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/333611-mcmaster-trumps-conversations-with-russians-wholly-appropriate [thehill.com]
That is a straight-up admission that the information was classified.
Yeah, he's the president so he can arbitrarily declassifiy anything he wants.
That doesn't make it legitimate. He still has an oath of office to up hold and being a blabbermouth fails the part about "faithfully executing the Office of President of the United States"
(Score: 2) by deadstick on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:11AM
Yeah, he's the president so he can arbitrarily declassifiy anything he wants.
That doesn't make it legitimate. He still has an oath of office to up hold and being a blabbermouth fails the part about "faithfully executing the Office of President of the United States"
This. He has that authority because he's presumed to know what the hell he's doing. You could replace "declassifying information" with "pardoning the Unabomber" without changing the meaning.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:37PM (1 child)
Use of the Spam mod here is not correct.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:15PM
Handled.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:46PM (5 children)
Trump can leak whatever he wants. What could possibly go wrong?
Trump can even pardon himself, his family, friends, etc. Donald Trump claimed [snopes.com] he could "stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody" and not "lose any voters."
BANG !!! Oops. Pardon me. I pardon myself.
BANG BANG !!! Oh, pardon myself again!
BANG !! Oh my, pardon me.
I wonder if that would be any worse than Nixon or Trump impeding an investigation by firing the person in charge of the investigation. And pretending the investigation does not exist three times. (the magical number of times to charm it into being so) Or asking the director of the FBI to make another investigation go away so it doesn't splash back on the administration.
It would be so much simpler to have a dear leader with absolute power. That would make all this inconvenient controversy just go away. Everyone would worship the dear leader. These late night comedy shows would be silenced. As God intended.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by NewNic on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:45PM (1 child)
The one person Trump cannot pardon is himself.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:08PM
It may be illegal for Trump to pardon himself.
But he can pardon himself for pardoning himself.
Or try this: suppose the exception handler could re-throw an exception -- but from the context of being within the block that it catches exceptions from. This could work as a looping construct if recursion were to become a problem.
Trump isn't trying to obstruct justice. He's just trying to put a stop to it. And who can blame him.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday May 17 2017, @07:26PM (2 children)
> It would be so much simpler to have a dear leader with absolute power.
"As long as he is MY guy! With absolute power, he could finally protect my freedoms and my agenda against those evil other guys!"
- Both halves of the US
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:10PM
The polar extremes are probably the enemy of us all.
We all basically want a lot of the same things.
We shouldn't have too much regulation, but nor should we have too little. I want a corporation to be able to make money and jobs, but I don't want them legally able to sneak into my house in the night and harvest my organs because "we can't regulate corporate behavior". That thinking got use Enron. Worldcom.
We must have taxes in order to have government services we all want. But how much should we reasonably tax, and where should government end?
But then we get into thorny issues like states trying to put creation into the science curriculum. Or whether someone who is going to get an abortion no matter what, should be able to get one that is safe and legal. Or whether gay people should be discriminated against. We're probably not going to get all people to come to some reasonable agreement, sadly.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:09AM
You're reminding me of Tom and Ray Magliozzi who would speak of the third half of the show. [google.com]
In the last election, the numbers were very interesting. [heavy.com]
Eligible to vote - 231,556,622
Didn’t Vote - 96,421,324 (41.6 percent)
So, "None of the above" outdrew everybody on the ballot.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:13PM (25 children)
> find the LEAKERS in the intelligence community...
According to my model of how the world works, the intelligence community does not really obey to the politician in charge, it is a tool within the world order that pushes the same world order agenda. It is obvious some low ranking operative behaves like he is supposed to do, for its country, and leaks. Some others think about their pension, and leak.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:47PM (24 children)
According to my model of how the world works, the intelligence community does not really obey to the politician in charge,
After the Church commission the intelligence agencies were significantly reigned in. Not 100% but way, way more than they were before.
But if Turmp is going to blab their secrets to Russia then they are going to start protecting themselves by filtering what information they share because they no longer have confidence in him. And that is going to mean reduced oversight because oversight requires visibility into their operations.
Rebuilding that trust, even with an entirely new administration, is going to be difficult. Because, it isn't just Turmp that will have demonstrated a lack of trustworthiness but all of his republican sycophants in congress that enabled and protected him. Also, institutional inertia - procedures and processes will have been lost from institutional memory.
So, ironically, Turmp's total ineptitude and ass-hattery may kick off an era of reduced intelligence oversight.
Yeah, Turmp's deep state conspiracy theories may come true as a result of his actions.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:11PM (6 children)
Another way to do it is hang the NSA for violating the Constitution by building the scariest Police State in history, and the CIA for torturing people and committing other such war crimes. Then you hire a new crew of mathematicians, ex-military, etc and train them assiduously: "YOU DO NOT FUCKING SPY ON AMERICANS. REPEAT: YOU DO NOT FUCKING SPY ON AMERICANS. YOU DO NOT TORTURE. YOU DO NOT COMMIT WAR CRIMES. IF YOU DO, REGARD WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PREDECESSORS DANGLING FROM THE TREES OUTSIDE THE WINDOWS OF THIS TRAINING ROOM."
Apologies for the caps, but it's that strong a subject.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:16PM (2 children)
> by building the scariest Police State in history,
you have no clue what you are talking about
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:23PM (1 child)
So clue us in, oh cognoscentus. Tell us how it really is.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:55PM
A short list of secret police far, far, far worse than the NSA. Which killed and brutalized tens of thousands with literally no public accountability.
Stasi
OCRB
Bureau for the Repression of Communist Activities
Milice de Volontaires de la Sécurité Nationale
SAVAK
Romanian Securitate
Santebal
Oprichniki
Cheka
NKVD
Gestapo
-----
Your teenage hysteria is the kind of thing that paves the way for things to get worse not better.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:40PM (2 children)
Then you get the first dyke president who instructs them to spy on Americans and they do because it would be homophobic to tell a dyke "no."
"Bath house Barry" Soetoro learned this the easy way.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:53PM
I'm not worried that Americans will get a hard on for torture and spying again. Going batshit every couple decades is how you roll.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @07:30PM
"Then you get the first dyke president"
What do you have against the Dutch?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:52PM (16 children)
That is an interesting point of view - someone modded you correctly.
But, I have questions about Obama doing similar stuff. For like 50 years, Cuba was Public Enemy Number One, and Castro was the Great Communist Satan. Obama almost unilaterally decided that Castro is a Pretty Good Guy, and Cuba had to be welcomed into the Brotherhood of Man.
How many asked how the intel community would react to that?
Yes, your POV is interesting, but, you're giving Trump to much credit, and Obama not enough. Not to mention Hillary's antics with classified information . . .
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:39PM (9 children)
Not to mention Hillary's antics with classified information . . .
You're right, it is funny how misshandling classified information is only bad when a Dem does it. Antics indeed.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:15PM (8 children)
You obviously missed the subtle differences between a mere secretary, and a Commander in Chief. You missed another subtlety, as well. The bit about protocols - Trump obviously holds the authority, but did he observe protocols? But, when you're a partisan, shooting from the hip, you can't be expected to notice subtleties, can you?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:02PM (6 children)
Trump receives TS-SCI information in a SCIF during a classified briefing from the national security council and blurts it out to top russians in person during a fit of braggadocio.
Clinton is sent unmarked TS-SCI information from a program she is not read on to in email, over the internet, from a civilian who holds no clearance himself and forwards it to other people in the department of state who have a working interest in the information.
The differences sure are subtle.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:18PM (3 children)
Need the ROFLcopter for this one! You partisans sure have helluva imaginations. Anonymous fucks on the interwebs don't email classified shit to secretaries of state.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:22PM (2 children)
> Anonymous fucks on the interwebs don't email classified shit to secretaries of state.
I never said he was anonymous.
It was Sidney Blumenthal. [breitbart.com]
> You partisans sure have helluva imaginations
I'm sure it comforts you to believe your ignorance is actually knowledge.
Nonetheless you are totally fucking ignorant of what you are talking about.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:39PM (1 child)
Actually, it was Hillary who was totally fucking ignorant - but if it makes you feel better, you can have the last word in this joke of a conversation.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:46PM
> Actually, it was Hillary who was totally fucking ignorant
Nope. Its you.
> you can have the last word in this joke of a conversation.
You are the one who started the idiotic joke, its only fitting that I'm the one to end it.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:46PM (1 child)
IIRC, the information *was* marked as confidential...but the marking wasn't blatant. When I saw a report (On SoylentNews: how accurate?) at the time my thought is that *I* would have thought it meant copyright.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:34PM
> IIRC, the information *was* marked as confidential...but the marking wasn't blatant.
That was a separate incident.
A line item was marked (C) (for classified) in error because it had been declassified. A couple of marking slipped through. It happens because people are fallible and if you do enough documents you will eventually miss a couple of markings.
It was her call sheet and call sheets are kept classified in case the SecState decides not to make the call, the fact that she cancelled a call might be embarrassing for the cancelled callee. But once the call is made its declassified as a matter of routine because the fact that the call happened is a matter of public record.
You can verify that the documents in question are declassified because the Dept of State released them in response to a FOIA. The government never publishes classified documents and being leaked does not cause them to be declassified.
https://foia.state.gov/searchapp/DOCUMENTS/HRCEmail_Jan29thWeb/O-2015-08637HCE10/DOC_0C05796118/C05796118.pdf [state.gov]
https://foia.state.gov/searchapp/DOCUMENTS/HRCEmail_NovWeb/267/DOC_0C05791537/C05791537.pdf [state.gov]
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:35PM
You obviously missed the subtle differences between a mere secretary, and a Commander in Chief.
Did I? Because you seem to have had a problem when Obama allegedly did it. [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:11PM (5 children)
Obama almost unilaterally decided that Castro is a Pretty Good Guy, and Cuba had to be welcomed into the Brotherhood of Man.
How many asked how the intel community would react to that?
WTF?
How is that even at all related?
The data they provide is intended to help the president make policy decisions.
Normalizing relations with Cuba does not weaken the abilty of the "intel community" to do its job.
Its a policy decision that was in part informed by the output of the intelligence agencies.
That is literally the way it is supposed to work.
Seriously derpaway, what goes on in your head that you thought that as a meaningful thing to say?
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:32PM (4 children)
"That is literally the way it is supposed to work."
And, uhhhhhhh - where does Congress fit into this picture? Seriously - let me get this straight. Intel is part of the executive branch, right? So, executive advises executive, and executive decides, and legislative has nothing to say in the matter, right? And, judicial? Oh, fuck judicial, this is a unilateral executive decision, no one gets any input except for Obama.
But, when Trump does something remotely similar, IMPEACH!!
Again - you are partisan, and your judgement is seriously clouded.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:44PM (3 children)
> And, uhhhhhhh - where does Congress fit into this picture?
WTF dude?
The issue is whether compromising the intelligence agencies' ability to do their job is a good idea.
You've tried to derail this into some bizarro rant about Obama and Cuba and you think I'm the partisan with bad judgment?
Its as if you've been told you are a delusional partisan so many times you've decided its just a meaningless insult so now you say it whenever you want to insult people you disagree with.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:50PM (2 children)
I think compromising the intelligence agencies' ability to do their jobs is a great idea. Another poster suggested that Trump doing to the spooks what they've done to him (ie. leaks) might piss off US "allies." Honestly, I got a little excited when I read this. I thought "if the relationship were to sour between US spooks and their foreign accomplices, what will become of their whole NATO protection racket?" I'm not confident that Trump is clever enough to come up with this plan. But if he were, I'd say "Bravo, Mr. President."
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:10PM (1 child)
> I think compromising the intelligence agencies' ability to do their jobs is a great idea.
Clearly you have zero idea as to the job of the intelligence agencies.
Without them the president and congress will be in the dark and unable to make informed foreign policy decisions.
That kind of shit is how wars get started.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 18 2017, @05:47AM
They are in the dark about just about everything else they do.
What makes this so special?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:15PM
let's keep secrets among each other, you never know we might accidentally hurt ISIS.
Is the war with eastasia or eurasia nao?
(Score: 5, Informative) by NotSanguine on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:16PM (35 children)
That's not the issue here, IMHO.
The issue is whether or not he compromised any sources and/or methods [definedterm.com] by giving the intel to the Russians.
The risk is, of course, made worse because now *everyone* knows the basics of what was revealed to the Russians.
This could very well reveal how ISIS communications are being monitored, or even get people killed.
All in all, this is a cluster fuck for just about everyone (well, except the Russians and ISIS).
Good job, Cheeto Jesus! You're making us all so proud of you! Sigh.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:22PM (34 children)
I would once have agreed with you. When George W. Bush and Dick Cheney outed CIA officer Valerie Wilson to punish her husband, who was contradicting the narrative they were pushing to justify invading Iraq, namely that Saddam Hussein was trying to build nuclear weapons, I said that it was treasonous behavior and that they should be punished accordingly. But apparently I was the only one who thought that, because nobody else gave a fuck and were perfectly happy to invade a country we had already bottled up with sanctions, and which had nothing to do with 9/11.
So now I know that I'm the one who is wrong. Rule of law and the Constitution and treaties and rules and such do not matter. The President can do whatever he wants, anytime he wants, to whomever he wants, without repercussions. He can, say, order drones to assassinate American citizens from the air. He can give his three letter agencies a free pass to violate any part of the American Constitution or international law they like. He can fabricate and lie all he likes and nothing. will. ever. happen.
Next to that, sharing "classified" information with a foreign power is small potatoes. We're not supposed to get outraged about all the stuff that happened before, that I listed, but we're supposed to now scream bloody murder over this? Because?
Maybe it's because a portion of the audience are Millenials who have only come to political consciousness in the last 6 months, and who think that all significant history began at that moment, but this is merely the latest episode in a long trend.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by NotSanguine on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:39PM (25 children)
You know Phoenix, you get more and more cynical every day.
It's kind of sad to watch.
I know a lot of people who were, have been and still are up in arms and screaming bloody murder about the abuses/excesses of the US Military/Intelligence/Political combine.
As I recall, *millions* protested in advance of the invasion of Iraq in 2003. I happened to be out of the country during the largest protests (15 February, 2003) [wikipedia.org], and I saw many *thousands* marching in Amsterdam.
There were hundreds of thousands back home in New York [wikipedia.org] too. Where were you?
So if you've given up, fine. But don't paint all of us with your broad brush, just because you're frustrated.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:38PM (9 children)
I don't think Phoenix666 is any more cynical than I am. If he has given up, he's not the only one.
I don't believe our system can be fixed. Just watching and waiting for it to implode. I believe not only will the Trump administration spiral out of control, but the whole system will. Nobody with the means to fix it is going to step up and do so because party and pointing fingers is more important. And that applies equally to whichever party is in power.
How many times now have the people voted for a complete change of government? Bush senior to Clinton. Then Clinton to Bush. Then Bush to Obama. Then Obama to Trump. Have the core problems of corruption and the great wealth divide been fixed? Nope. At some point the people are going to realize that voting does nothing to change things. Heck, some congress people now openly disregard their constituents and are unwilling to hear from them. That sends a message loud and clear.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by jelizondo on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:29PM (1 child)
Horatius at the Bridge [bartleby.com] (fragment)
Thomas Babington, Lord Macaulay (1800–1859)
For Romans in Rome’s quarrel
Spared neither land nor gold,
Nor son nor wife, nor limb nor life,
In the brave days of old.
Then none was for a party—
Then all were for the state;
Then the great man helped the poor,
And the poor man loved the great;
Then lands were fairly portioned!
Then spoils were fairly sold:
The Romans were like brothers
In the brave days of old.
Now Roman is to Roman
More hateful than a foe,
And the tribunes beard the high,
And the fathers grind the low.
As we wax hot in faction,
In battle we wax cold;
Wherefore men fight not as they fought
In the brave days of old.
So like the old Roman Empire, the U.S. of A. starts to decline... waxing hot in faction and all for the party, not for the state.
SAD
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:00PM
> So like the old Roman Empire, the U.S. of A. starts to decline... waxing hot in faction and all for the party, not for the state.
It was nice when we had the soviets to keep us focused.
A bunch of reactionary militants who don't even own a single fighter jet just isn't cutting it.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:18PM (6 children)
How many times now have the people voted for a complete change of government? Bush senior to Clinton. Then Clinton to Bush. Then Bush to Obama. Then Obama to Trump.
Say whaaaa? Change? Where? They see-sawed between two factions of a single party. Real change would require dropping the reelection rate below 70%. And it will also require removal of the dem/rep monolith that is monopolizing the narrative so successfully.
All people have to do is be conscious when they vote. This automatic *one or the other* will just keep dragging us down.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:54PM (1 child)
Have you looked at either the Libertarian Party or the Greens? This last election convinced me that they were both as bad, or worse, then the Democrats, if not in quite the same way. I dislike the Republicans more because they don't give two shits about what happens to most people, where the Democrats at least make a half-hearted attempt to make things better, even if that's not their main interest. And a few Democrats actually seem to spend most of their time working for the public good...not the powerful ones, but some. (I haven't really followed Bernie Sanders. He might be OK, but he also doesn't have real hold of the levers of power.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:26PM
> Have you looked at either the Libertarian Party or the Greens?
The libertarians have a nazi problem. [twitter.com]
I gave Ron Paul a pass when he published those newsletters that had a couple of racist columns [washingtonpost.com] in them because he wasn't the author and they probably had a shoe-string budget which makes it easy for things slip by. But not any more. Combine that with the party being a tool of the Koch's [blogspot.com] and no thank you.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:54PM (3 children)
You correctly identify the problem, as I pointed it out. The people voted for change, because they believed it could happen. You and I point out that no change has happened. What you conclude should be obvious that we have a two headed monster that dominates the narrative and keeps the people divided. And divide is getting more bitter. At some point maybe even violent. I had suggested that maybe people might wake up and recognize their vote seems to change nothing.
It is a nice fantasy of people being conscious when they vote. Just thinking about statistics, in any large group of many millions of people, half will be below average intelligence. Also, there are plenty of people who are ignorant and proud of it. People are not going to think outside the box. The box was constructed for them to feel safe voting for one or the other.
Don't try to think outside the box, for that is impossible. Only try to realize the truth. There is no box.
So I don't know. Will people eventually figure out how to change things? One big problem is Lesterville. (Google for: lawrence lessig lesterville ted talk) So how do you fix that? Can it be fixed? I think not, sadly.
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(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:40PM (1 child)
Correction: The box was constructed [by] them to feel safe voting for one or the other.
So how do you fix that? Can it be fixed?
Start by recognizing that the woulds are self inflicted. But that won't happen either. The human path is evolutionary, not revolutionary. All the old natural instinctive forces still dominate. All our fancy tech and 'philosophy' do not belie our most basic animal motivations, on the contrary, it is all done to fortify and rationalize them.
Solution? Try not to think about it :-)
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:43PM
woulds?
Let me come in again
wounds...
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:07PM
Well, are you talking median or mean? 'Cause if it's the latter, it could be a few really stupid people skewing the results. In my home state, we call them, "North Dakotans." (I kid! I kid!)
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:54PM (12 children)
Hanging around this site is part of the problem. Too many persistent voices pushing garbage narratives, it can be easy to feel like the country has lost hope but in reality the negative voices here are just a vocal minority. We do have a problem with 10-30% of the US population being "true believers" who bend over backwards for their ideologies, but it is entirely possible to strap them into the backseat and let them yell their heads off. Meanwhile the adults can steer the car safely back home.
Now, what it will take to get real changes back on track? I don't know, but probably massive civil unrest and millions of people marching like back in the days of the Civil Rights movement. Right now is the perfect time to take the Ghandi approach, as thousands of innocents get abused and locked up the spotlight will shine on the heart of America and the blind conservatives will finally get a good look. Most will pull back in horror as they realize what is actually going on, and they will finally see their KKK peers for what they are. I do hope for a time of healing, for US citizens to be brought out of the miasma of propaganda and fear to see what their country has truly become.
PS: Liberals already know about their crazy extremist counterparts, but conservatives still seem quite blind to the KKK shenanigans. If they won't be dragged into the 21st century then they'll have to watch their children and families get dragged into various horrors until they open their eyes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:21PM (6 children)
Now, what it will take to get real changes back on track?
After the year from hell, it takes a while to rebuild basic infrastructure, but things do get better.
By 2033 or so, there is a semblance of living in civilization again. Things are different. Instead of "Googling" for information, there are librarians who will consult the global information network and get you the information you're seeking in the most objective way possible. I realize that the word "librarian" doesn't mean quite the same thing it means here before N-day, but we felt that there was an essential function with real economic value we wanted people to provide in a civilization. The word seemed fitting. I suppose "programmer" or "network administrator" might be closer to what they do from your perspective.
There is no Facebook, either. Instead people are more interested in getting to know their neighbors and community and accepting their neighbors for who they are instead of using trivialities such as somebody's religion or the gender of the person they're married to or what medicine they need when they get sick as a partisan wedge. Everybody had to pull together during the year from hell, and we greatly value the skills that a person acquires over a lifetime of experience above all else.
It is clear to everyone who survived that the mistakes that led to N-day must never be repeated.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:35PM (2 children)
"N-Day" stands for...?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:44PM (1 child)
The day every major city was reduced to irritated rubble. That morning some 3 billion people died over the span of a few hours. Summer never came that year.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:12PM
Two AC's answered for the price of one.
It's classified, unless Trump leaks it.
Nuclear Winter is Trump's solution to Global Warming. Oh, wait. I just leaked the answer to the previous question. Nevermind.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:16PM (2 children)
Yes, this has been foretold by many. Heinlein called it, "The Year They Killed All the Lawyers." Fight Club imagined people pounding corn on freeway overpasses. I think of it as the day we all finally had had enough, piled into our pickups, and descended on DC and Wall Street with axe handles to 'redecorate.'
It will be tough at first to get by without Amazon Prime, but I think we can do it.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:58PM
> Yes, this has been foretold by many.
And for millenia people have been 'foretelling' the end of the world.
Those prophets were just as big asshats as you are.
I mean, JFC you cited a sci-fi short story and a movie.
WORKS OF ENTERTAINMENT.
How deluded do you have to be to think that shit is even remotely like reality?
I remember reading that Rupert Murdoch hated Fight Club because he thought it was nihlistic [theatlantic.com] but he published it anyway because money.
At the time I thought he was an idiot because nobody could be so stupid to mistake a movie for real life.
But pepes like you have convinced me he was right, it is nihilistic and you trumptardians have embraced that nihilism instead of recognizing it as escapsim.
You think you can destroy a society and the survivors will build something better from the ashes?
When has that EVER worked in real life? Never. At best it takes dedicated and enlightened outside help to make things work out (like Germany after WWII).
If you get your wish the USA goes the way of Rome, not Germany.
What will happen is that the elite will be get 100x more powerful and the rest of us will be fucked 100x worse than we are now.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 18 2017, @01:48AM
It could be even easier than that.
I have already noted in this (meta)thread that over 41 percent of the electorate didn't bother to cast a vote last time around.
Doing the arithmetic, that left less than 30 percent each for the Big 2.
If that 41 percent (plus the folks who were voting defensively) could be presented with a platform/candidate that was pro-worker, pro-consumer, pro-family, pro-community, then their apathy might be turned around, giving a plurality--if not a majority--to that platform/candidate.
These days, Bernie is often called "The most popular politician in the USA".
Jill's platform mirrored Bernie's in most significant ways.
...and after the (embarrassing) performance of the Blues at their convention, Jill offered Bernie the top spot on the Green ticket.
...but, hey, look who I'm talking to: a guy who thought that the dude with ZERO EXPERIENCE and a giant personality disorder was the one who might be an improvement.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:30PM (2 children)
10-30%? Try 60+%. Either party running a turd in a hotdog bun would get thirty percent as was absolutely proven this election cycle. No, there is no coming back from this.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:06PM (1 child)
Buy ammo? Gold? Christ, I remember getting this end-of-world messaging on Fox news for about 8 years. Dude, anyone who was not already persuaded to be fully in gold by now is just not buying.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:01PM
Ammo, canned goods, rice, beans, gold, a hardcopy porn stash, tons and tons of fishing lures. You know, the necessities.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:25PM (1 child)
You seem to be an optimistic voice. Status quo going well for you, then? Do tell us what makes you an adult, and everyone else children. Are you a Wall Street banker whose bonus for running spreadsheets whose macros somebody else programmed for you was better than ever this Christmas? Perhaps you're a JTRIG staffer who's really responding to the wellness check-ins Ft. Mead has been running since that whole Snowden thing. Maybe you went to Brown, landed your first job working at a food bank, and just, like, really totally love everyone right naw and just know that everything would be alright, if, like, everybody stopped being so cynical and, like, just loved each other and helped each other, and stuff.
What this site has is really smart people who come from every part of the political and philosophical spectrum. Even the rather weird ones. I love that you can't say a goddamned thing about a goddamned thing without people eviscerating you. Keeps you on your toes.
I will grant you that we could do with more comity, but baby steps, baby steps.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 18 2017, @08:41AM
Most of the users here I would consider intelligent adults, with a few who are intelligent but suffer from massive disorders of varying sorts. There are a few children as well who can't deal with actual evidence, let hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance run wild, and don't have the capability to recognize it. The real children of the US are the ones who blindly parrot back talk show points, or go to festivals and ask if you have fiiiilterred water or just taaaap? I'll settle for whatever water doesn't make me shit my pants for days thank you!
I try to be optimistic, it's the only thing keeping me from blowing out my brains. I am smart, but I don't claim to have all the answers by any means. I do appreciate the knowledge even some of the worst users occasionally share, even EF can have something legit to add, but I liken such as them to be the teenagers in the very back just lashing out with their teen angst. They are the people in the process of waking up, they know things are very very wrong but they haven't really found their own path through the bullshit.
Phoenix666 you seem to be the adult who hasn't had a personal day in six years. Go run a bath, or set up a hammock, get a nice bottle of wine and enjoy the evening / morning / day. Whatever slides the jenga piece back into place. Me? I'll try to do better and stop responding to stuff, one day I'll be able to read some bullshit and just shutdown the computer realizing there are better things to do than waste time on digital babysitting.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @07:58PM (1 child)
Then you need to zoom in, because I was on 3rd Ave between 46th and 47th for most of it. Couldn't get close to the UN because the cops boxed out all the intersections with riot gear and horses. And it was far more than hundreds of thousands of people. It was millions. 3 million people fill Grant Park during Taste of Chicago, and the NYC protests against the invasion of Iraq were like that on every avenue starting on Avenue of Americas, going east to the UN. People as far as the eye could see, and that was from the vantage of the top of a rise.
Sorry about that, but my cynicism is bounded by a system that is totally, fatally broken. I think I'm not alone in that, judging from the last election and general state of angst in the world. It's a subject that comes up frequently around here, so I can't help myself.
We're witnessing a sea change in history. Systems of control that have retarded human genius for 150 years+ have been outpaced by technological progress, and are losing their grip. But they're not going without a fight. Eventually revolution will depose them (whatever form that takes), but right now it sucks.
For what it's worth, (and really, who cares?) I have a very happy life otherwise. I have a beautiful wife and beautiful children. I have enough to eat (from 100+ cultures!). I have health insurance and broadband. I live in a wonderful, family-friendly, progressive neighborhood in the capital of the world (yes, I know many will dispute that). I get to interact with amazing people on a daily basis. In them I see a bright future, and I really want for them all to realize their full potential because that would make for an amazing world.
So I haven't given up on them, but I have given up on the Republicans, Democrats, DC, Wall Street, CNN, Fox, MBAs, the Whitehouse, Congress, the Judiciary, on Cable, and on shopping our way to happiness. I mean no offense to you personally if you still believe any of those named parties care about you and want the best for you.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:46PM
Couldn't get close to the UN because the cops boxed out all the intersections with riot gear and horses
As I mentioned, I was in Amsterdam that day. Amsterdam is, of course a much, much smaller city, but there were thousands *marching through the streets*. The Dutch police were on hand, but didn't interfere with anyone.
Later that day, I saw footage of the New York protest with the barricades and the cops with riot gear and was ashamed of my home.
Land of the free and home of the brave, indeed.
I won't get into the whole manufactured left vs. right thing except to give the following analogy:
You're walking through an underground tunnel with sewer pipes above your head. In the D world, the pipes are cracked and oozing and dripping raw sewage on your head. In the R world, the pipes are completely broken open and drowning you in that same raw sewage.
Not a very appealing set of choices. There are a lot of reasons for this, but the main ones are legalized bribery (lobbying) and privately funded elections.
Remove the money from the political system and you've addressed at least 40% of the problem.
Alternative voting systems, lowering the bar for candidacies, and modified term limits (e.g., if a representative or senator, having been elected twice gets less than 75% of the vote in subsequent elections, they may not stand for that office again) might help too.
There are a lot of really smart people out there who actually want a functioning system that will prioritize the ideals of "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity." I hear that some other folks thought that those were good ideas too.
I don't pretend to have all (many? some?) the answers (okay I do pretend that I know them, but I don't :) ), however, it's pretty clear (at least to me) that throwing up our hands in disgust or tearing it all down will likely make things much, much worse.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by meustrus on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:10PM
The reasons that our government can do what it does is because we the people authorize it to do so. That's what politics is: representing and/or manipulating public sentiment to support you and your actions. Trump "won" an election by doing exactly that, and "his" party in Congress only supports him because it helps them politically.
So if you want this "long trend" to end, the people need to change our sentiments. We need to expect better of our politicians, because as long as we don't we won't get better. We need more "Millenials who have only come to political consciousness in the last 6 months" because those are the people that will expect something better for lack of knowing what to expect.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:14PM (6 children)
I am pretty sure I have already corrected you once for this one so you are just a goddamned liar at this point for still repeating it.
When George W. Bush and Dick Cheney outed CIA officer Valerie Wilson to punish her husband
Richard Armitage, a lifer in the swamp working for Sec State Powell at the time is the one who 'outted' Plame and her husband's seditious activity to Robert Novak. Plame was no longer covert, she was a desk jockey. Armitage told the Special Prosecutor he was the one who did the deed, which was not a crime. But the persecutions continued because a Special Prosecutor knows their actual mandate isn't to discover the truth and write a report, his job was to indict somebody as close to the President as possible, Bush, Cheney or Rove were his targets. Failing that he settled for Cheney's top minion and tossed his life on zero pretext. You did know that Libby has been entirely exonerated and even got his law license back. Now where does he get his life back, his reputation? Rove's marriage was ruined in the whole affair.
Armitage tipped Novak because Plame and her husband were working with other Democrat apparatchiks to undermine Bush's foreign policy. The whole CIA still needs to be fumigated over the events of that time.
Absolutely nothing I wrote above is a fact still in dispute. But you scum continue to repeat the lie.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:01PM (1 child)
> Richard Armitage, a lifer in the swamp working for Sec State Powell at the time is the one who 'outted' Plame
He was chief of staff to vice president cheney. His nickname was "Dick Cheney's Dick Cheney" [nbcnews.com]
The rest of your "correction" is similarly accurate.
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday May 17 2017, @07:41PM
What a f*cking moron. Do you even Google? "Scooter" Libby was Chief of Staff for Cheney, he was railroaded into serving a prison term and later entirely exonerated and restored to the bar. Richard Armitage was the leaker and worked for Secretary of State Powell. Armitage told the Special Prosecutor in the first week of the investigation because he knew he had committed no crime. None of these facts are in dispute, even the Special Prosecutor's official final report admits this is the reality.
But the lesson learned from the sad affair is NO MORE SPECIAL PROSECUTORS. EVER. No Democrat need worry about one because the swamp protects its own and now any Republican who allows one is a moron who deserves what will happen.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:12PM (3 children)
And now for your second act, you'll prove how Hitler was framed? I know you're itching to smack down us goddamned liars for that, too.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:59PM (2 children)
You truly are impervious to facts and reality aren't ya. Every single fact I asserted is fully documented in every major news source you can find, even the enemy ones like the NYT and WaPo, and you simply ignore all of that and continue on with your alternate reality. Literally nobody seriously argues the position that Libby outted Plame outside the Kos and DU fever swamps. I think this is the point where I link to How to Know You Won A Political Debate On The Internet [dilbert.com] and move on because you are ticking most of the boxes now.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 18 2017, @09:02AM (1 child)
You piqued my curiosity with the statement that people are ignoring easily verified facts. After googling around a lot the clearest info seems to be from Wikipedia:
Libby's voting rights were restored in 2013 by Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell. Three years later, on November 3, 2016, the District of Columbia Court of Appeals granted Libby's petition for reinstatement to the D.C. Bar.
His prison sentence was commuted, and Bush considered a full pardon but that didn't seem to happen. The only story here is that it pays to have friends in high places. I've wasted enough time on this to judge it 90% bullshit from you, but if you add any links I will read them and give my thoughts. Basically it must be something beyond an alt-right news site making bold emotionally charged claims. If you can't provide the "fully documented in every major news source" stories then your dilbert link is jumping the gun.
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Thursday May 18 2017, @10:40PM
Really? Your GoogleFu is so poor you couldn't find the Wikipedia page [wikipedia.org]? For a Wikipedia page about a politicized topic it is actually pretty complete for a change. Guess competition improves everything? It answers all of your questions and confirms that without a doubt the original charge of Phoenix666 being a "goddamned liar" is legit. But if you prefer a more #FakeNews source, CNN [cnn.com] has you covered too.