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posted by Fnord666 on Thursday October 12, @07:23AM   Printer-friendly
from the oink-I-say dept.

Newsweek has this article on America's skewed definition of terrorism:

What is terrorism? According to the FBI, animal activists who stole two piglets from a farm were terrorists. As of now, Stephen Paddock, who killed 58 people at a country music concert in Las Vegas two weeks ago, has not been labeled a terrorist by the federal security organization.

In a viral story posted on The Intercept, journalist Glenn Greenwald details an account of federal agents investigating animal activists and scouring farm-animal sanctuaries to find two missing piglets that allegedly had been stolen from a farm. The FBI devoted such resources to finding these two piglets because their alleged theft and the capturing of undercover videos of the farm's conditions count as terrorism.

Why is the piglet theft classified as terrorism, but not the Las Vegas shooting? The distinction is rooted in the definition of the term. In spite of the emotions the word "terrorist" might elicit, the definition is not "mass killer" or "Muslim extremist" or "very bad person." The legal definition of terrorism is "the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property in order to coerce or intimidate a government or the civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives."


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by looorg on Thursday October 12, @07:47AM (16 children)

    by looorg (578) on Thursday October 12, @07:47AM (#581023)

    Greenwald is making himself stupider then he is. But it's because the (militant) "animal rights" people have been doing this for decades, stealing two piglets is part of on ongoing organized campaign and isn't some one time event as the LV-shooter incident. Same as all those other eco-terrorist that go around burning shit to the ground to "save mother nature" or whatever their excuse is.

    In some sense the definition of terrorism have become popularized. Now almost everything criminal can also be considered terrorism, at least by some people. After all most crime fulfill at least half the definition by using violence as a tool to in some way shape or form influence people or entities. They also probably have an agenda they are trying to advance. It's like the terrorism slippery slope.

    Was Charles Whitman a terrorist? For those that can't remember him he was the man that climbed the University of Texas tower and started sniping off people for about an hour and a half, he killed only a fraction of what Paddock managed but that is besides the point. It circumstances wasn't identical. But still he managed to kill something like 10-11 people from his vantage point back in 1966. Can't recall him being labeled as a terrorist either. We can probably have a whole list of lone gunmen here that doesn't get the terrorist label.

     

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Thursday October 12, @09:18AM (5 children)

      by sjames (2882) on Thursday October 12, @09:18AM (#581043) Journal

      Taking two piglets already left for dead (no commercial value) isn't terrorism either. Taking video isn't violence. Gaining employment under false pretenses and then taking video isn't violence. Thus, not terrorism.

      The LV shooter is also not a terrorist. Plenty of violence but no discernable agenda and no attempt to cause political change.

      Note that even if healthy, a piglet goes for $35 retail. Can you imagine someone stealing $70 worth of stuff from you and the FBI going on a multi-state hunt for your property? Can you imagine more than a very bored cop very reluctantly filling out a report to be filed and forgotten? Treating it as a felony and a terrorist act is itself an act of state terrorism.

      • (Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @01:57PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @01:57PM (#581125)

        It's obvious that all they heard was "these terrorists have kidnapped two pigs". Automatic reaction on the part of the cops when they thought two of their own were missing.

        • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @04:30PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @04:30PM (#581203)

          This is funny not informative... sometimes I really worry about the mental state of fellow lentils.

          • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday October 12, @07:54PM

            by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday October 12, @07:54PM (#581315)

            This is why I have been advocating for an "insightfunny" mod forever now. Sometimes a post is both and needs to be recognized as such. In fact, all things insightfunny should be highlighted because humor when used to further truth, makes the truth go much farther and deeper.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @05:17PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @05:17PM (#581226)

          children of cops, or just freshly minted officers just off being called 'cadet'? :)

      • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday October 12, @05:28PM

        by bob_super (1357) on Thursday October 12, @05:28PM (#581230)

        In the old days, son, they woulda hung you from a tall tree for stealing cattle.
        Threatening Farm business, especially Big Farm Business, ain't no laughing matter around these parts, boy...

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @10:23AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @10:23AM (#581066)

      FWIW I don't consider the mass shooting a terrorist act either unless there was some message or demand.

      But it's because the (militant) "animal rights" people have been doing this for decades, stealing two piglets is part of on ongoing organized campaign a

      If those people stealing a pig were doing terrorist acts before stealing a pig then they're a terrorist whether they stole a pig or not. e.g. knowingly joining a terrorist group makes you a terrorist even if you haven't done anything yet (e.g. signing up with ISIS).

      If the terrorist robbed the farmer of his pigs then yes it's a terrorist act - since there's violence or threat of violence and it was part of the terrorist campaign. But if a terrorist secretly steals a pig without threats or violence, it should be considered stealing a pig not a terrorist act.

      I don't think that all crimes committed as part of terrorist campaign should automatically be considered terrorist acts. The crimes should still be considered crimes and potentially add to their sentence if they get caught. But to consider all such crimes as terrorist acts seems a dangerous and a slippery slope.

      Anti-terrorism laws tend to be rather powerful, so let's not make it easier for those in power to use them or expand their coverage and scope.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @04:13AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @04:13AM (#581544)

        That word means that violence was used or threatened.
        That didn't happen.
        I challenge you to produce evidence that violence against humans has -ever- been used by the animal liberation folks.

        TFS was a tiny part of the article.
        (I read TFA before it was submitted here.)
        The really good stuff was omitted from TFS.

        There was no one around attending the animals.
        It appeared that had been true for some time.

        The piglets couldn't be sold as pets because they were in such poor condition.
        It is unlikely they would have made it to market as meat because of their poor health: either they would have died or an inspector would have rejected the diseased animals.

        ...and there were other piglets nearly who had died and their corpses were rotting.

        If these critters had been dogs, this would have been called a puppy mill. [google.com]
        (Don't support this business model. Don't buy animals from pet stores.)

        Next time, RTFA.

        terrorist

        Use of that word also requires violence or the threat of violence.
        You are way off the mark.
        Again, I'm willing to see your evidence to the contrary WRT this lot.

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Thursday October 12, @12:05PM (5 children)

      by LoRdTAW (3755) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @12:05PM (#581092) Journal

      But it's because the (militant) "animal rights" people have been doing this for decades, stealing two piglets is part of on ongoing organized campaign and isn't some one time event as the LV-shooter incident.

      This is the key point. It's a somewhat organized campaign waged for decades. The Vegas shooter didn't have any motivation beyond some sort of psychosis. The key word here is organized.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @01:02PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @01:02PM (#581114)

        But just being organized doesn't make it terrorism. The Mafia definitely is organized crime, which even includes killing people, but I've never heard anyone claim they are terrorists.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by LoRdTAW on Thursday October 12, @01:11PM (3 children)

          by LoRdTAW (3755) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @01:11PM (#581116) Journal

          The difference is the mafia commits crimes to enrich itself. It has no agenda to push. The so called eco-terrorists commit their crimes to push an agenda.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @08:22PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @08:22PM (#581326)

            Mafia has an agenda: to make money. So if the acts are in pursuit of money, it is not terrorism. If the acts are to prevent someone from pursuing money, it is a candidate for terrorism(?)

            The terrorists label is over-abused, and mainly by those that want more power and limit civil liberties.

          • (Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Thursday October 12, @09:19PM (1 child)

            by Joe Desertrat (2454) on Thursday October 12, @09:19PM (#581351)

            The difference is the mafia commits crimes to enrich itself. It has no agenda to push. The so called eco-terrorists commit their crimes to push an agenda.

            Caring for something besides stuffing money in your pocket regardless of who or what gets hurt or destroyed is a terrorist act if it prevents someone from stuffing money in their pocket? The "eco-terrorists" are so labeled because they oppose the self-enriching agenda of profit driven, environmental consequence ignoring, law in their pocket big industries, not because they harm things on a vast scale.

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Friday October 13, @12:46AM

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 13, @12:46AM (#581462)

              because they oppose the self-enriching agenda of profit driven

              Which, in a culture that puts money ahead of anything else, is an attack that goes against the very core of the society.

              It won;t happen in cultures for which money is just another mean for a purpose.
              Look at the Scandinavian societies and you'll see them happy to pay high taxes because they get something they value more than the money they spend.

              (yeah, sure, that's heresy! No, more than that, it's BLASPHEMY! How could anything else than money be more important. That's socialism or even communism, the incarnation of all evil...
              TMB and some others are righteously entitled to shoot-from-there-hip to anyone who thinks otherwise, no extra thinking needed, knee-jerk reaction is so much easier).

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by urza9814 on Thursday October 12, @06:40PM (1 child)

      by urza9814 (3954) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @06:40PM (#581272) Journal

      Greenwald is making himself stupider then he is. But it's because the (militant) "animal rights" people have been doing this for decades, stealing two piglets is part of on ongoing organized campaign and isn't some one time event as the LV-shooter incident. Same as all those other eco-terrorist that go around burning shit to the ground to "save mother nature" or whatever their excuse is.

      The entire part about the LV shooter comes from Newsweek, not Greewald. Greenwald's article doesn't mention it at all, it's mostly about factory farming practices.

      In some sense the definition of terrorism have become popularized. Now almost everything criminal can also be considered terrorism, at least by some people. After all most crime fulfill at least half the definition by using violence as a tool to in some way shape or form influence people or entities. They also probably have an agenda they are trying to advance. It's like the terrorism slippery slope.

      Yeah, I think that's kinda the point of the article. Sure, "Terrorism" has a strict legal definition. But that definition often doesn't match the popularized definition used by the general public. So when Congress declares that they're giving $x billion to fight terrorism, people support it because they think that money is being spent hunting down ISIS cells and mass shooters. They don't expect it to be spent on recovering abandoned farm animals, even if that *might* technically better fit the definition. The article isn't about what gets classified as "terrorism"; it's about where the big anti-terrorism funding is really going vs where people *think* it's going.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @04:30AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @04:30AM (#581554)

        I saw an article the other day where a sex worker said that Stephen Paddock would take her to a casino, lose a bunch of money, and pay her to have violent sex. [google.com]
        The dude had a loose screw, not an agenda.

        The Texas Tower sniper was mentioned upthread.
        Charles Whitman had a brain tumor. [google.com]
        Again: Not ideological; just nuts.

        (Thanks for shutting down all the mental health facilities, Ronnie Raygun--and thanks for the push-start, Jimmy Carter.)

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

  • (Score: 2) by Entropy on Thursday October 12, @08:09AM (7 children)

    by Entropy (4228) on Thursday October 12, @08:09AM (#581030)

    They historically don't really claim credit for things they didn't do. Also there seems to be a lot of evidence for at least one more shooter, but neither of those things fit the preferred narrative. So yeah, it's probably a terrorist act.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @08:50AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @08:50AM (#581036)

      if there was a second shooter, and they were from ISIS, they would have made as much information as possible as public as possible.
      for instance they would have filmed themselves shooting, and then posted that on the internet.
      because they want the publicity.
      even if the second person wanted to remain alive to do other stuff, it would have been trivial for such a video to be made public.
      so your conspiracy theory fails early on.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday October 12, @02:14PM (3 children)

      by Thexalon (636) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @02:14PM (#581134) Homepage

      They historically don't really claim credit for things they didn't do.

      Yes they do. All the time. Basically, if somebody attacks Westerners and either has no obvious motive or seems vaguely involved in Islamic radicalism, they claim it as theirs. That's because they want Islamic radicals to think they're the people they want to be fighting for, not those other lamers in Hezbollah or something.

      One reason they do this is that they're in a desperate position militarily right now. As in, they're completely surrounded and losing ground rapidly on both sides of the Iraq/Syria border. They're lashing out with terrorism as best they can to try and distract people from that fact.

      --
      If you act on pie in the sky, you're likely to get pie in the face.
      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @05:17PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @05:17PM (#581224)

        Out of more than 50 cases that ISIS claimed, ISIS was wrong only 3 times. There are also numerous cases that ISIS chose not to claim.

        So, based on that track record, it's over 94% sure to be ISIS.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @06:53PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @06:53PM (#581285)

          citation please. otherwise, bull shit.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @04:37AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @04:37AM (#581560)

        I liked how, when they had the Orlando shooter on the phone, he claimed affiliation with Al-Qaeda AND Hamas (2 groups that HATE EACH OTHER'S GUTS).

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday October 12, @08:03PM (1 child)

      by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday October 12, @08:03PM (#581318)

      No there isn't. There is a lot of evidence that people who are unfamiliar with objects flying faster than sound, produce a noise all of their own along their entire flight path. In the context of a bullet, this known as sonic crack (or supersonic crack) and is a noise totally separate from the bang from the rifle (or the echoes of either). In every video I've seen, I hear a sonic crack near the person recording (which means the bullet was near enough for them to hear the sonic crack for that portion of its flight) followed by the rifle's report -- as would be expected because the bullet is flying faster than sound - you'll hear the sonic boom first and then the sound of the bang because sound lags behind the bullet. While this sounds like two different things from different directions, it is all related to a single event - the distance bang and the nearby sonic crack are one event stretched out in time.

      This video demonstrates the effect rather well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Fu_4iDOLQ [youtube.com]

      • (Score: 2) by Entropy on Thursday October 12, @10:47PM

        by Entropy (4228) on Thursday October 12, @10:47PM (#581404)

        There are windows shot out that are unlikely from the single vantage point. Sound from gunfire can be misinterpreted by folks unfamiliar with it for sure.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by KiloByte on Thursday October 12, @08:13AM (4 children)

    by KiloByte (375) on Thursday October 12, @08:13AM (#581031)

    Terrorism is bad, but not everything that's bad is terrorism.

    There'a a very good explanation of what is and what is not terrorism [lawcomic.net] in comic form, drawn in spare time by a big-name lawyer.

    --
    Ceterum censeo systemd esse delendam.
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by unauthorized on Thursday October 12, @02:34PM (3 children)

      by unauthorized (3776) on Thursday October 12, @02:34PM (#581144)

      Terrorism is bad

      The US founders were terrorists.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @08:24PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @08:24PM (#581327)

        One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @05:25AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @05:25AM (#581583)

          The democratically-elected Sandinistas had Nicaragua on the mend after years of military dictatorships.
          There was lots of healthcare. education, proper nutrition, housing, and, in general, they didn't treat Jose Average like a peasant.

          The Sandinistas were a Bolivarian/anti-imperialist lot.
          They didn't kow-tow to USA.gov's hegemony as previous governments there had.
          So, of course, they had to be eradicated by USA.gov.

          Ronnie Raygun aligned himself with The Contras (breaking a bunch of USA laws in the process).
          The Contras continued their campaign of murder, terror, torture, rape, burning down entire villages, etc.

          Some of them received training in methods of sadistic violence at The School of the Americas at Fort Benning, Georgia, USA.

          Ronnie called them "freedom fighters", valiant people delivering the people of Nicaragua to a freedom without a humane existence and a caring government, obviously.

          Hurrah, U-S-A, U-S-A, U-S-A.
          That noble, democracy-loving nation.

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @09:44PM

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @09:44PM (#581366) Journal

        Also the founders of Israel. See the King David Hotel bombing [wikipedia.org].

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @08:45AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @08:45AM (#581035)

    I agree with not labeling the nutcase a terrorist.

    Here are examples of terrorist stuff:
    --- Northern Ireland bombings. "let us go free or we kill people, here's the proof that we mean it".
    --- WTC 2001: "get out of the middle East or we kill people, here's the proof that we mean it".

    For the Las Vegas shooter, there has been absolutely no message, no request that we know of.
    As far as we know, he did not intend to terrorize people into giving him something he wanted, therefore he is not a terrorist.
    He just wanted to kill people.
    It's true that people were/are terrorized, but his intention was not to use terror in order to obtain something well-defined.

    If you want to change the legal definition of "terrorist", you need to follow a more elaborate legal process, it's not enough to say "I was scared so please call the person scaring me a terrorist".

    As far as the piglet people are concerned, it may be true that they are not terrorists in the sense that kamikaze bombers are terrorists.
    But the comparison with the Las Vegas shooter is not at all relevant.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 12, @09:36AM (13 children)

    That's the funny thing about words, they have specific meanings. While meanings may change with time, they don't change just because you want to call X a Y.

    --
    Save Ferris!
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @09:43AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @09:43AM (#581055)

      When I use a word, it always means just what I choose it to mean.

      Sincerely,
      Humpty Dumpty.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @04:44AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @04:44AM (#581563)

        You're going to fail the course.

        Sincerely,
        Your English teacher

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @10:34AM (10 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @10:34AM (#581071)

      Sure they do. Women and female no longer mean a person without testicles. Human females can produce sperm and don't have eggs. Words used to have set and common definitions, but that's so old fashion. Modern words don't matter. Remember in today's world, bones heal but insults last a lifetime. No more "sticks and stones" horseshit.

      All that is taught to today's youngest generations. I'm going to be making a lot of "in my time" insults when I grow old.

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 12, @10:44AM

        Avoid the Christmas rush; become a cranky bastard while you're still young so that by the time you're old you're the best there ever was at it.

        --
        Save Ferris!
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @01:04PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @01:04PM (#581115)

        Women and female no longer mean a person without testicles.

        No longer? Castrates have never been considered women or female.

      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday October 12, @06:06PM (2 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday October 12, @06:06PM (#581251)

        Question: did you hit on a drag queen and get an unpleasant surprise or something? You seem really bitter about the whole LGBTQ+ crowd. Most people don't care.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @06:50PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @06:50PM (#581283)

          (Not same AC)

          Question: did someone who is really bitter about the whole LGBTQ+ crowd challenge your worldview with an opposing opinion or something? You seem really bitter about people who are bitter about the LGBTQ+ crowd. Most people don't care.

          ...Or maybe it's possible that neither your pocket of the world nor anyone else's represents "most people" and that nobody can accurately say what "most people" care about. Maybe the LGBTQMNOP+++ crowd is not something you can just handwave as being noncontroversial to "most people."

          But please, mod me down and tell me how stupid I am. Score some major *social justice* points and enlighten a (in your mind) worthless, backwards deplorable who is far less equal and diverse than you. Show me some good ol' modern progressive peace'n'love'n'acceptance.

          • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @07:02PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @07:02PM (#581290)

            You seem really bitter about people who are bitter about the LGBTQ+ crowd. Most people don't care.

            But at least you, you hot and slinky AC, care, don't you! Why are you so bitter about thinking that some people are bitter about how bitter the anti-LGBTQ+ crowd are? Let's stay away from crowds. Let's just keep it between ourselves, AC to AC. Here, let me massage your shoulders, you seem tense. Is that better?

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @10:04AM (18 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @10:04AM (#581061)

    FBI spends an substantial amount of money (of your money) to search for two piglets, yet fails to protect you from mass-shooting.
    And you argue about the semantics, like it's a normal as-expected situation.
    You americans are batshit crazy

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 12, @10:30AM (17 children)

      You seem to be under a misapprehension. A police officer's job is not to protect you from anything; it is to arrest people who have already broken the law. For protection you'd need every third or fourth person in the nation wearing a badge. Unless, have you figured out how to call 911 fifteen minutes before you're mugged so the police have time to get there?

      --
      Save Ferris!
      • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @12:03PM (13 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @12:03PM (#581090)

        A police officer's job is not to protect you from anything;

        Yeap, just forget about "To Protect and to Serve" ('cause this is just the obscure LAPD, never shown in any movies to create expectations) or "To Protect with Courage, To Serve with Compassion" ('cause this is just the Minneapolis PD, they only go shooting Australian blondes in night gowns after they cal 911) or "We Serve and Protect" (that's just the Chicago PD, unable to protect anything of value, 'cause nothing of value still remained in Chicago).

        The Las Vegas PD is just probably tasked of singing Kumbaya when making "Partners With the Community", it's not reasonable to expect more than that from them. Do they at least have a good voice?

        And FBI? They can spend heaps of your money searching for two piglets across 5 states, 'cause they'll be doing it with "Fidelity, Bravery, Integrity"; nothing more is expected from them. Yeeeaaahh, maaayyybeee they can sorta get some hints from NSA for some parallel constructions; but rest assured that parallel construction will still be conducted with "Fidelity, Bravery, Integrity". Oh, just forget about their use of Stingray cells, those are toys, just some innocent fun.

        No, a person that buys tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of rifles and bullets in advance of his killing spree is, well, nothing out of the ordinary; even when he bring 23 fire arms and a truckload of ammo in his hotel apartment, it's an innocent gesture of a person that is sooo attached to his gun collection. No, this is his constitutional right, gun control is only allowed in totally dignified contexts, like when boarding a plane with your shoes in your hand; a hotel must make all its guests feel welcome at the entrance, then everyone for himself in regards with his protection - one can't expect a hotel to have a gun safe and ask the guests to check in their guns there while inside the hotel, that's not good for business.

        You americans are batshit crazy. And you are batshit crazy for such a long time you think this is normal.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 12, @12:10PM (9 children)

          Those slogans are PR. Police can't realistically protect shit out of their direct eyesight and they never have been able to. Any thoughts to the contrary are about as realistic as expecting a unicorn to come poop glitter on the bad guys and turn them into friendly leprechauns.

          --
          Save Ferris!
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @12:28PM (7 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @12:28PM (#581101)

            Yeah, right. So you just pay them to chase pigs for the benefit of your agricultural overlords' public image, 'cause they have proven and effective skills in PR.

            And you consider this is a normal situation, not worth of being even remotely annoyed about.
            It's the mundane reality for as long as you remember, therefore is absolutely sane!!

            • (Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 12, @12:39PM (6 children)

              English isn't your native language I take it.

              --
              Save Ferris!
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @12:52PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @12:52PM (#581110)

                The point of FBI chasing non-violent "terrorists" on money from your pocket just to defend the bottom line of agribusiness barons is surely soooo much less important than my command over English language, isn't it? That point so insignificant it doesn't worth addressing.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @04:31PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @04:31PM (#581204)

                  Ignore the mighty buzzbrain. Hes the resident troll on staff.

              • (Score: 1) by oldmac31310 on Thursday October 12, @02:55PM (1 child)

                by oldmac31310 (4521) on Thursday October 12, @02:55PM (#581154)

                You are an asshole.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @07:32PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @07:32PM (#581305)

                  'What does a sphincter say?" Wayne

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @07:41PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @07:41PM (#581309)

                ಇಂಗ್ಲಿಷ್ ನನ್ನ ಸ್ಥಳೀಯ ಭಾಷೆ ಅಲ್ಲ

              • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @09:49PM

                by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @09:49PM (#581371) Journal

                I gotta be honest, his command of English far exceeds your command of his native language. Exceeds your command of your native language too, actually.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 4, Touché) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @12:59PM

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @12:59PM (#581112) Journal

            So you concede the misapprehension is the result of intentional propaganda, but you still blame the public at large for getting the wrong idea.

            Let me quote here what a certain Soylentil wrote down thread:

            "Nope. Words have meanings and this one hasn't changed. You may use it incorrectly but that's all it is, you using it incorrectly."

            Which of course means that in this case the word "protect" doesn't mean what the public thinks it means, or what common usage would indicate, but rather your facile judgement that it instead means, "you'd be a fool to believe 'protect' when said by the police means what you think it means."

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @01:17PM (1 child)

          by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @01:17PM (#581119) Journal

          You americans are batshit crazy. And you are batshit crazy for such a long time you think this is normal.

          Let's leave aside how batshit crazy other people in the world, too, are for the moment.

          For a person who observes so much about America, it's surprising you are missing how exasperated Americans are with the state of affairs. People like Donald Trump don't get elected because things are stable and people are generally content with the status quo. That one thing right there ought to be enough to prove my case. But if not, here are a couple more examples from the past week alone: the shattering of the NFL and Hollywood as American institutions. The NFL is riven now, and Hollywood and its allies in mass media are being knocked on their collective butt by the Weinstein saga and the decades-long coverup.

          All of it are sure signs of a society in an existential crisis. The Information Age has torn away the tissue of lies that pacified and befuddled the public these past 70 years (arguably longer), such that they accepted those facile lies instead of facing up to the reality they have known in their hearts: that the game is rigged and American democracy is a sham.

          All of these things you're talking about, the Vegas shooting, etc, are people writhing with that truth. There isn't much left for them to repose their trust in, and when those last things go the game will be up.

          I hope where you are is far away and that place will afford you shelter when this super volcano of political eruptions occurs, but I doubt it.

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @02:08PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @02:08PM (#581128)

            For a person who observes so much about America, it's surprising you are missing how exasperated Americans are with the state of affairs.

            Exasperation. That's a state of mind bordering insanity, right? Like after trying everything that rationally should have worked, but failed again and again. So what one can do except trying the irrational?
            No, I haven't discounted the exasperation, I just didn't have time and graphical space to write the analysis of causes for your craziness.

            Causes which in fact are simple in principle (discarding the morbidly obese devil still able to hide comfortable into the details).
            You are being played one against the other, like a whole nation of gladiators fighting in a continent large arena, for the amusement and wealth of a handful few. Since you are so equally matched - almost deliberately so - the amusement and profits will continue to flow for quite a while. Or so they hope.
            You even have cheerleaders, to keep the festive atmosphere, the ones like CNN/CBS vs Breitbart/Fox.

            What can you do? I have a hunch that stopping the infighting for a while and looking around would be a good first step.
            While you can do this on your own.

            I hope where you are is far away and that place will afford you shelter when this super volcano of political eruptions occurs, but I doubt it.

            The only way Trump or any other in his position can wipe out the division line between the two gladiator teams would be to put America under an external threat so great that you will forget the differences and focus on the commonality. Any other way will take longer than the 8 years.
            Of course, anything achievable on a shorter terms means a global conflict - find a common enemy strong enough to be a menace, weak enough to lower the risk of getting out of hand.

            I'm afraid I don't have another livable planet I can jump on until the things settle down.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by captain_nifty on Thursday October 12, @09:59PM

          by captain_nifty (4252) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @09:59PM (#581378)

          Let me help you with this:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia [wikipedia.org]

          Summary: the police have no specific legal duty to protect the public, according to the U.S. Supreme Court

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @12:52PM (1 child)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @12:52PM (#581109) Journal

        "Serve and Protect" is the police motto. It's a misapprehension they intentionally create.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Thursday October 12, @05:01PM

          by cmdrklarg (5048) on Thursday October 12, @05:01PM (#581215)

          It becomes appropriate when adding a single word to the end: themselves.

          --
          THE SOFTWARE, IT NO WORKY!
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @01:15PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @01:15PM (#581118)

        No, it is their job to protect you. The reason criminals are arrested is to protect others. Both directly (because those criminals arrested otherwise might do further crimes) and indirectly (by deterring others from doing crimes as well).

        It is of course true that they cannot offer total protection. But it is indeed common that policemen are put on places where it is quite likely that a crime will occur. And if a police officer watches someone attempting a crime, he is not supposed to wait until the crime happened and then arrest that person, but rather he is supposed to take action to prevent that crime.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @11:47AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @11:47AM (#581084)

    https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/boss-hog-the-dark-side-of-americas-top-pork-producer-20061214 [rollingstone.com] (2006 but probably still quite valid)

    I guess terrorist is a positive label then.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @11:57AM (19 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @11:57AM (#581088) Journal

    The FBI is being too cute with their use of the dictionary definition of "terrorist" to explain why these folks are, and the Vegas shooter isn't. They know damn well that "terrorist" has long since lost that neat connotation. Thanks to tens of thousands of hours of loose usage in broadcast TV and countless reams of articles the term has become a scary shock term on par with "Nazi." It's now invective hurled at a target to elicit fear, anger, and hatred from the public. Nobody uses the term like the FBI is claiming it is used anymore, except for maybe a handful of political scientists writing articles for Foreign Affairs.

    And the final irony is, the FBI meets the terms of "terrorism" under its own definition, because it employs targeted violence in service of a political agenda in bringing its weight to bear against these animal rights activists. FBI agents using that violence in service of a political agenda are therefore "terrorists."

    Are we gonna let those terrorists win?

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 12, @12:12PM (6 children)

      Nope. Words have meanings and this one hasn't changed. You may use it incorrectly but that's all it is, you using it incorrectly.

      --
      Save Ferris!
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @12:39PM (4 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @12:39PM (#581104) Journal

        Its usage has in fact changed. See Merriam Webster's definition of "nazi" [merriam-webster.com] for an example of the dynamic at work:

        Definition of Nazi
        1 :a member of a German fascist party controlling Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler
        2 often not capitalized
        a :one who espouses the beliefs and policies of the German Nazis :fascist
        b :one who is likened to a German Nazi :a harshly domineering, dictatorial, or intolerant person

                a grammar nazi

        1. and 2a. were the original, formal definitions of the term. 2b. came about because of everyone running around throwing the term loosely at anyone they didn't like.

        Merriam Webster's formal documentation hasn't caught up with common usage of the term "terrorist" yet, but the FBI knows good and well that's how everyone uses it now and what effect it will produce on the public. The classification also produces a stronger legal bargaining position if they catch the animal rights activists; they can get them to take a plea instead of taking it to trial.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 3, Funny) by aristarchus on Thursday October 12, @07:08PM (3 children)

          by aristarchus (2645) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @07:08PM (#581295) Journal

          Oh, great! Soon SoylentNews is going to be infested with Grammar Terrorists! Posters will live in fear of spelling and grammar mistakes! They will be afraid that some middle school teacher will take their piglets! But at least they will be gluten-free. The one thing I could never stomach about Grammar Nazis was all the gluten. They would post, in their snide and arrogant way, "Gluten Tag!" all the time. Nazis.

          --
          came from aris5tarcfhus..; wee probably shouldn't run it
          • (Score: 3, Funny) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @09:33PM

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @09:33PM (#581357) Journal

            "Soon SoylentNews is going to be infested with Grammar Terrorists! Posters will live in fear of spelling and grammar mistakes"

            That future is already here. @wonkey_monkey. :-)

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday October 13, @02:13AM

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 13, @02:13AM (#581508)

            They would post, in their snide and arrogant way, "Gluten Tag!" all the time. Nazis.

            Shouldn't that be in modern Twitter orthography? Like #gluten!

            When do you think you are, you insensitive clod, in antiquity times?
            Who the hell has the time nowadays to type - much less to think about - some extra 4 characters?
            Not to mention the 140/280 limit. What? You reckon anyone cares about books anymore? Today, you don't tweet, you don't exist.

            (grin)

          • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Friday October 13, @02:17AM

            by AthanasiusKircher (5291) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 13, @02:17AM (#581513) Journal

            But at least they will be gluten-free. The one thing I could never stomach about Grammar Nazis was all the gluten. They would post, in their snide and arrogant way, "Gluten Tag!" all the time. Nazis.

            Gosh, this made me snort. And I had to log in just to thank you for that nonsense. Don't ever change, Aristarchus.

      • (Score: 2) by pe1rxq on Thursday October 12, @08:46PM

        by pe1rxq (844) on Thursday October 12, @08:46PM (#581339) Homepage

        And that is why calling you a Nazi asshole is a perfectly valid thing to do. No matter how many times you vote for Trump.

        --
        Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Thursday October 12, @12:20PM (9 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @12:20PM (#581098)

      Are we gonna let those terrorists win?

      To quote TMB, "you seem to be under a misapprehension.".
      Are you harbouring the delusion you haven't had lost since quite a long time back? Like since you let them throw the PATRIOT dust in your eyes, more that 15 years ago.

      (are you able to say what the PATRIOT acronyms stands for, without using the Internet? Otherwise, what the hell has patriotism to do with/against terrorism? What better indication you need that this was just the "be against loss of freedom is just unpatriotic" dust in your eyes?)

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @12:48PM (4 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @12:48PM (#581107) Journal

        ?

        I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you placing me on the side of FBI apologists, and that's a bad thing, or that I'm a critic and that's a bad thing? Or is it a blanket condemnation of America and the direction it's take over the last 18 years?

        I don't recall off the top of my head what the PATRIOT acronym stands for. I knew once. Now it's in a dusty drawer labeled "Orwellian doublespeak" next to "Homeland Security."

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday October 12, @01:01PM (1 child)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @01:01PM (#581113)

          Are you placing me on the side of FBI apologists, and that's a bad thing, or that I'm a critic and that's a bad thing?

          No, I'm not, apologies if this is a meaning that can be derived from my post, it's not what I intended.

          I'm saying that's too late to think that "Are we gonna let those terrorists win?" makes sense, because you lost this battle long time ago. So, rather this one:

          Or is it a blanket condemnation of America and the direction it's take over the last 18 years?

          is closer to (but not an exact match of) what I meant.

          Perhaps asking "Are we going to let them keep what they won?" is a better form for your question?

          • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @01:30PM

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @01:30PM (#581121) Journal

            You're always gonna be playing a game of catch up when you're so deeply betrayed by an insider you entrusted with such an important role. We trusted the FBI, NSA, CIA, Congress, the Whitehouse, the police, etc with so much money and power to perform the duties the People required them to do, and they used it to work directly against the Constitution we swore them in to uphold. Thus they are vile, perjured wretches.

            The Rule of Law and public scorn have shown little effect in bringing them to heel, so eventually it's going to take revolution. If they don't receive the ultimate penalty for their betrayal of their oaths, and for violating the freedom and the rights of the People, then the Constitution and its precepts have no meaning and no teeth. When that happens is anyone's guess.

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday October 12, @01:11PM (1 child)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @01:11PM (#581117)

          (I can see why the '?'. No, I used "you/your" as the plural. Apologies once again)

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday October 12, @10:53PM

        by FatPhil (863) <{pc-soylent} {at} {asdf.fi}> on Thursday October 12, @10:53PM (#581411) Homepage
        Pedantically, it's the USA PATRIOT Act whose acronym you're after.
        --
        I was worried about my command. I was the scientist of the Holy Ghost.
      • (Score: 2) by Pino P on Friday October 13, @01:30AM (2 children)

        by Pino P (4721) on Friday October 13, @01:30AM (#581487) Journal

        Without looking it up:
        Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools something something Terrorism

        Looked it up:
        Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism

        Do I win 70% of a cookie?

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday October 13, @01:57AM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 13, @01:57AM (#581494)

          Do I win 70% of a cookie?

          But of course! Welcome to the Darkside, son, have as many as you want!! ;)

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @05:49AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @05:49AM (#581592)

          Of the 10 cookies that were originally on the plate, DHS has grabbed 9 and is now pointing at the nearly-empty plate and attempting to convince you that a terrorist is trying to take your cookie.

          Security theater: the best kind of kabuki theater.

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Thursday October 12, @05:39PM (1 child)

      by DeathMonkey (1380) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @05:39PM (#581234) Journal

      Yes, professionals tend to use words within their domain correctly.

      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 12, @09:36PM

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday October 12, @09:36PM (#581358) Journal

        Meaning the animal rights activists are terrorists and the Vegas shooter is not, or the other way around?

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
  • (Score: 2) by crafoo on Thursday October 12, @01:37PM

    by crafoo (6639) on Thursday October 12, @01:37PM (#581124)

    I think it's purely used this way to select from a class of laws and potential punishments they can bring to bear. The LV shooter is dead so in law enforcement eyes, it doesn't really matter. In the case of the "eco-terrorists" it most certainly matters because it opens up much more broad and intrusive powers they can use in the name of fighting terrorism.

    There is a law on the books in Georgia which is called something like Unlawful Terrorist Intent, but boils down to pretty much "back talking a cop at a DUI stop".

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @02:56PM (4 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @02:56PM (#581155)

    According to the official line, they cannot find a motive for why he did it. From the official recounting, he may have been suffering from a psychosis or was a latent psychopath. That he so meticulously planned things does not mean that he was sane, it could be an obsessive/psychopathic or delusional sort of thing that left his technical skills intact.

    Terrorism is defined by motive, a injurious act, done to scare people into submission for some political motive. Since we have no known motive yet with Las Vegas, that has been officially acknowledged, we cannot with certainty classify it.

    Rescuing the Piglet, I think, classifying that as terrorism goes too far. I do agree, that animals should not be mistreated or abused and I see here someone genuinely concerned about the well being of the animals, and I would say what is happening in the factory farms is actual animal abuse. So its a rescue, out of concern for the animals, from an abusive situation. I know they will argue it was property damage, and therefore since these people advocate for policy changes, that makes it terrorism, but given it was a piglet, a sentient being, and its flagrant animal rigths abuses happening, that changes things, than if it were an inanimate object. I do actually beleive animals have rights not to be abused. I am not saying that they cannot be slaughted for food, but they have to be raised in the most humane ways possible.

    If the goal is to stop the abuse of animals, sometimes PETA doesnt do much of a service by presenting their radical vegetarian ideology (which isnt really doable or practicle, most vegetarians end up nutritionally deficient). Maybe they would get more accomplished if they would settle for strongly enforced humane treatment laws by an independant agency that cannot be influenced by agribusiness.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @06:08PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @06:08PM (#581253)

      I'm not a big Ann Coulter fan, but she may be onto something in this editorial,
          http://www.vdare.com/articles/ann-coulter-las-vegas-massacre-the-story-is-coming-apart?content=lemonade%20stand.%20%C2%A0 [vdare.com]

      tl;dr
      She speculates that Paddock was playing poker slots to launder money. I don't know for sure, but she claims that the best machines return a pretty high percentage over the long term.

      Then she goes a bit off the deep end when guessing where all that cash came from.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @05:57AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @05:57AM (#581595)

        The silly-looking stuff at the end of the URL, starting with the question mark, is not vital to the URL.

        Next time, chop that off and see if the URL is still valid.
        It almost always is.

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday October 12, @08:14PM (1 child)

      Charles Whitman had it.

      He left behind a note requesting an autopsy of his brain.

      --
      My GoFundMe campaign [gofundme.com].
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @06:03AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13, @06:03AM (#581596)

        ...but the reports that I saw about the LV shooter said that he died of a self-inflicted pistol shot to the head.
        Probably not enough of his brain left intact to check for tumors.

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

  • (Score: 1) by darkpixel on Thursday October 12, @03:04PM

    by darkpixel (4281) on Thursday October 12, @03:04PM (#581158)

    Look back far enough in some old english dictionaries and you'll find that the original definition of terrorism was government.

  • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Thursday October 12, @03:12PM (2 children)

    by linkdude64 (5482) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 12, @03:12PM (#581161)

    What I'm REALLY curious about is what makes someone a "Hitler" or, in the case of the current US President (someone who has not been convicted of being responsible for the death of a single person) a, "Literally Worse Than Hitler."

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @05:16PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 12, @05:16PM (#581223)

      I think they're talking about art. Trump is literally worse than Hitler, as in, I would rather stare at Hitler's collected paintings for an hour than watch one of Trump's bullshit reality shows.

      What does being convicted of being responsible for the death of a single person (or a married person for that matter) got to do with art?

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bob_super on Thursday October 12, @05:46PM

      by bob_super (1357) on Thursday October 12, @05:46PM (#581238)

      > the current US President (someone who has not been convicted of being responsible for the death of a single person)

      The operative word is "convicted" (BTW, was Hitler ever literally convicted post-1933?).
      There is no arguing whatsoever that the supreme commander of the US armed forces for the last 9 months is responsible for a lot of deaths around the world. And proud of quite a few of them, too.
      But he isn't likely to get tried and convicted for any of them.

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