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posted by cmn32480 on Monday October 23 2017, @01:54PM   Printer-friendly
from the tactical-advance-away-from-them dept.

The Guardian, The New York Times, Al-Jazeera over the decision of USA and Israel to withdraw from UNESCO over 'anti-Israel bias'

The Guardian

The United States has formally notified the UN's world heritage body Unesco that it is withdrawing its membership of the organisation citing "continuing anti-Israel bias".
The announcement by the Trump administration was followed a few hours later by news that Israel was also planning to quit the financially struggling cultural and educational agency.
...
The body is best known for its world heritage listings of outstanding cultural and natural sites but has often drawn the ire of Israel and the Trump administration for a series of decisions, including the listing of Hebron, a city in the southern part of the occupied Palestinian territories, as a Palestinian world heritage site.
...
Disclosing the US government's decision, the state department said in a statement it would seek to "remain engaged ... as a non-member observer state in order to contribute US views, perspectives and expertise".

The statement added: "This decision was not taken lightly, and reflects US concerns with mounting arrears at Unesco, the need for fundamental reform in the organisation, and continuing anti-Israel bias at Unesco," the US state department said. The withdrawal will take effect on 31 December 2018.

The New York Times

The administration also cited mounting arrears at the organization as a reason for the decision.

"We were in arrears to the tune of $550 million or so, and so the question is, do we want to pay that money?" Heather Nauert, a spokeswoman for the State Department, said Thursday at a news briefing. She added, "With this anti-Israel bias that's long documented on the part of Unesco, that needs to come to an end."
...

Cultural organizations in the United States criticized the decision, saying Unesco played a key role in preserving vital cultural heritage worldwide.

"Although Unesco may be an imperfect organization, it has been an important leader and steadfast partner in this crucial work," said Daniel H. Weiss, the president and chief executive of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.
...
Analysts said that withdrawing from the organization was a significant escalation by the United States in its criticism of United Nations bodies.

"This is another example of the Trump's administration's profound ambivalence and concern about the way the U.N. is structured and behaves," said Aaron David Miller, a former Middle East negotiator and adviser in Republican and Democratic administrations.

In July, Unesco declared the ancient and hotly contested core of Hebron, in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, as a Palestinian World Heritage site in danger, a decision sharply criticized by Israel and its allies. And in 2015, Unesco adopted a resolution that criticized Israel for mishandling heritage sites in Jerusalem and condemned "Israeli aggressions and illegal measures against freedom of worship."

Al-Jazeera

In a statement announcing its withdrawal, Israel called the US administration's decision "courageous and moral", and accused UNESCO of becoming a "theatre of the absurd".

"The prime minister instructed the foreign ministry to prepare Israel's withdrawal from the organisation alongside the United States," Benjamin Netayanu's office said in a statement.
...

Thursday's development demonstrates the US administration's "complete and total bias" towards Israel, says Mustafa Barghouti, secretary-general of the Palestinian National Initiative, a political party comprising mostly secular intellectuals.

"This behaviour is counterproductive and shameful," he told Al Jazeera by phone. "Sooner or later they will see Palestine in every UN agency. Will the US respond to that by withdrawing from the WHO or the World Intellectual Property Organization? They will be hurting only themselves."
...
Russia's foreign ministry said it regreted the decision, adding that the move would disrupt a number of important projects planned by UNESCO.

"We share the concern by many countries that the activity of UNESCO has been too politicised lately," the ministry said in a statement.
...
Barghouti, of the Palestinian National Initiative, said it is "as if Israel is dictating US policy not only in the Middle East but also in international organisations.

"This is going to have a very harmful effect on the idea of the US being a mediator between the Palestinians and the Israelis."


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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 23 2017, @02:17PM (86 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday October 23 2017, @02:17PM (#586332) Journal

    I'm not getting clear signals on what the right-think is here. NY Times, am I supposed to hate this move because Trump ordered it, or am I supposed to applaud it because Israel can do no wrong & how dare UNESCO for recognizing that Palestinians have value as human beings?

    How do the heads at the NY Times not explode from the cognitive dissonance?

    Me, my natural reaction to the move is it's stupid. Not because Trump ordered it, but because calling UNESCO anti-Israel for declaring Hebron a world cultural heritage site is so profoundly bigoted. Israel is the most repugnant apartheid state in the world today and doing anything for those people is anathema.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by KiloByte on Monday October 23 2017, @02:25PM (23 children)

      by KiloByte (375) on Monday October 23 2017, @02:25PM (#586336)

      Israel is the most repugnant apartheid state in the world today

      You mean, granting to muslim citizens far more rights than they have in neighbouring countries? Or not law-murdering people just because they refuse to worship a particular sky fairy — especially if they dare to admit they have stopped, or, even worse, made someone else stop?

      --
      Ceterum censeo systemd esse delendam.
      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @02:39PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @02:39PM (#586341)

        Generally world opinion applies different standards when a country claims to be modern and civilised.

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 23 2017, @02:59PM (5 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday October 23 2017, @02:59PM (#586352) Journal

        Better to serve in Heaven, than reign in Hell, amirite?

        No, what you're saying makes total sense. Far better to be a black person in modern South Africa under apartheid than a full citizen of, say, Namibia, right? What were those ungrateful South African black people so upset about, anyway? Didn't they realize how good they had it?

        You are further correct in pointing out the followers of the sky-fairy in Israel are so much better [skepchick.org] than others.

        Israel is a horrible country with horrible policies. Its people are jerks in person, too. No manners and no consideration for others. The United States should stop all support for them.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 1, Touché) by frojack on Monday October 23 2017, @06:06PM (4 children)

          by frojack (1554) on Monday October 23 2017, @06:06PM (#586462) Journal

          Its people are jerks in person, too. No manners and no consideration for others. /quote?

          Stereotype much?

          I've heard the exact same allegations made in regard to Germans, and Americans. Fine, you hate Jews, just own that and move on.

          --
          No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
          • (Score: 5, Funny) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 23 2017, @07:18PM (3 children)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday October 23 2017, @07:18PM (#586498) Journal

            It looks like you're quoting someone else, but I think you muffed the quote tag so I'll assume you were expressing your thoughts and not quoting someone else...

            "Stereotype much?"

            Yes, it's a figment of my imagination. Except it's been written up by the BBC [bbc.com] and the New York Times [nytimes.com], both notoriously anti-Semitic rags, right?

            I've heard the exact same allegations made in regard to Germans, and Americans. Fine, you hate Jews, just own that and move on.

            So if I say I dislike Belarus, and think they're a horrible country with horrible policies, and whose people are remarkably uncouth and unpleasant to encounter (I don't, but let's say for argument's sake), then to you that automatically means I hate all white people and all Orthodox Christians?

            All Jews are not Israelis. In fact, more Jews live in the USA than Israel. So let's hand-wave away Israeli Arabs for a moment and suppose that I was criticizing only Israeli Jews, which would mean I was criticizing a minority of Jews in the world. Hmm, I criticize a minority of Americans called Republicans and Democrats. Does that mean I hate all Americans?

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:24PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:24PM (#586553)

              Does that mean I hate all Americans?

              No, only the ones that live between Canada and Mexico.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:41AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:41AM (#586695)

                Over 6 million of us voted for a non-Blue or a non-Red last time around. [wikipedia.org]

                ...and 42 percent thought that the candidates were so awful that they didn't bother to cast a ballot, even though they were registered.

                ...and in 1959, USA added 2 states, neither of which is within the boundaries you noted.

                ...and USA has colonial possessions where residents are USAian citizens.

                -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

                • (Score: 2) by FakeBeldin on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:33PM

                  by FakeBeldin (3360) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:33PM (#586818) Journal

                  and 42 percent thought that the candidates were so awful that they didn't bother to cast a ballot, even though they were registered.

                  But thankfully they were all kind enough to fill in the form on why they didn't vote, thus allowing you to make this thoroughly well-founded statement.
                  Amazingly enough these voters were completely unanimous in their reasons to not vote: according to the survey results, it was exclusively and only because the candidates were awful in their opinion. There was not a single voter dissenting.
                  </sarcasm>

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Whoever on Monday October 23 2017, @03:53PM (8 children)

        by Whoever (4524) on Monday October 23 2017, @03:53PM (#586375) Journal

        http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2017/09/whataboutery-whataboutism/ [oxforddictionaries.com]

        Whatever neighboring countries do does not make the political system in Israel good for a modern, advanced nation.

        • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:23PM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:23PM (#586392)

          For long-term survival, Israel needs to remove all Muslims from all of the territory it controls.

          The current political system does not support this. In time, the Muslim population will grow to the point that they control Israel's parliament. Soon afterward, the Jews are back to being genocided, and "modern" gives way to "7th century".

          So the result would not in fact be a modern, advanced nation. That is a failure.

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by FatPhil on Monday October 23 2017, @07:48PM (6 children)

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Monday October 23 2017, @07:48PM (#586520) Homepage
            So the best way to avoid genocide is to commit genocide? You seem to share the same smarts as Trump and Zionists.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:38PM (5 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:38PM (#586558)

              I did write "remove", so there are non-lethal options.

              It's unfair for us to say "genocide is unacceptable" while we reap the benefits of killings past. Take the Wounded Knee for example. The lesson is not "oh we are so terrible" but "every successful civilization is built upon a hill of skulls". This has been going on since prehistoric times, so everybody is descended from brutal killers. It's everybody, literally everybody, so don't feel shame for it.

              History is not kind to those who refuse to slaughter those who are different.

              • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:45PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:45PM (#586564)

                History is not kind to those who refuse to slaughter those who are different.

                Hey! Look! It's Ozy, Ozyman something! History is not kind to those that do slaugher, either. Moron.

                "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
                Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
                Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
                Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
                The lone and level sands stretch far away.'

                Percy Bysshe Shelley

              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by FatPhil on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:02PM (3 children)

                by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:02PM (#586809) Homepage
                > I did write "remove", so there are non-lethal options.

                The onl way to remove people who say "this is my homeland, my family have lived here for as far back as record began, I have every right to remain here is to remove their life.

                You do realise that the arab families in what was former Palestine have typically been resident there longer than the Hbrew families, large proportions of which have taken a big fat wedge off the Israeli government (i.e. the taxpayers, which include the arabs) to move there from Eastern Europe?

                > This has been going on since prehistoric times, [...]

                But only you on this thread are advocating *continuing* it. This puts you in the same boat as the muslims that everyone's shunning nowadays.
                --
                Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:37PM (2 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:37PM (#587049)

                  They can be shipped away. Part of the difficulty is that Arab countries have all agreed to refuse to take them. Some may die while resisting capture. Most would not, either because they surrender or because Israel just grabs them. There are countries with slaves. They might take the Palestinians. North Korea and Mauritania are the obvious. Somalia can't really say no, given the relative lack of government. Israel could just dump the Palestinians in Somalia.

                  It doesn't matter who has been resident longer. Winners get the spoils. Losers can die in a fire.

                  I'm not going to put on airs of moral superiority, and I don't expect the Israelis to do so either. If the Muslims want to slaughter all infidels, which they do, the sane response is to return the favor. Kill, or be killed. Mere removal might suffice. It's an ugly world, and denial of this fact leads to doom.

                  • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday October 25 2017, @11:35AM (1 child)

                    by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Wednesday October 25 2017, @11:35AM (#587327) Homepage
                    > They can be shipped away ...

                    > I'm not going to put on airs of moral superiority

                    Clearly not - you're putting on airs of being an amoral fascist.
                    --
                    Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 26 2017, @04:22AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 26 2017, @04:22AM (#587699)

                      Some people's morality seems to ignore similarity or even prefer the dissimilar. They care about total strangers. Sometimes they care about strangers more than they care about their own family. At the extreme there is PETA, caring more about animals than humans. A more common example is white people saying that they hate white people.

                      For me, the value of a human depends on their relation to me. I expect likewise from others. In many places, I'd be killed. I'm happy to return the favor.

                      To judge the value of a human, I care about all aspects of similarity. Every aspect of culture matters: religion, social politics, economic politics, language, accent, sex/relationship behavior, etc. Every aspect of DNA matters; do they look like me? I care about my family more than I care about my neighbors, and I care about my neighbors more than I care about some asshole imam/cleric in Yemen.

                      Also, how would that person feel about me, because generally I tend to want to treat others as they would treat me. It's kind of a slightly-off variant of the golden rule. I go for revenge and preemptive strikes.

                      For example, the Japanese have been good to America for about 70 years. When they visit, they don't kill us. When we visit, they don't kill us. When they trade with us, they are normally fair enough. I could go for pitching in to help them with a war or other disaster. Things are vaguely similar for Poland. I like them.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @05:33PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @05:33PM (#586434)

        Shouldn't they have rights too?

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday October 23 2017, @07:45PM (1 child)

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Monday October 23 2017, @07:45PM (#586516) Homepage
        They give Druze Muslims the same rights as non-Muslims, but more mainstream Muslims do not have those same rights, as part of the Druze doctrines are to respect the laws of the nation where they reside.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:25PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:25PM (#586583)

          And part of mainstream Islam's Doctrine is to disrespect all laws that are not derived from the toilet paper... I mean their holy book.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by FatPhil on Monday October 23 2017, @07:51PM (1 child)

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Monday October 23 2017, @07:51PM (#586526) Homepage
        > > Israel is the most repugnant apartheid state in the world today

        > ... neighbouring countries

        You mean I should look over there? OK, I did look over there, and now I've completely forgotten Israel was being criticised. Great argumentation sir, you have won!
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 3, Touché) by unauthorized on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:25AM

          by unauthorized (3776) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:25AM (#586674)

          No, they were not being criticized. Criticism implies some kind of analysis is involved, what we have here is colloquially known as "bitching".

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:51AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:51AM (#586680)

        that's how bush would say it yeah but it's just twisting of facts

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @09:02AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @09:02AM (#586781)

        You mean, granting to muslim citizens

        I think he means by having two classes of citizens - the Jews and everyone else.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_identity_card#Question_of_ethnicity [wikipedia.org]

        and of course, if you are black, then you are not exactly viewed as a Jew anyway, even if you are.

        and then we have serious problems,
        https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.690403 [haaretz.com]

        Only 7% of Jerusalem Building Permits Go to Palestinian Neighborhoods

        So please, it's not about other countries, it's about Israel being an apartheid state. This is when policies of the government institutions systematically, and other openly or covertly, favour one group over another. And first step of finding a solution is accepting you have a problem.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @02:34PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @02:34PM (#586339)

      Israel is the most repugnant apartheid state in the world today

      I think Europe's ongoing occupation of the western hemisphere is slightly worse.

      • (Score: 4, Funny) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 23 2017, @03:05PM (6 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday October 23 2017, @03:05PM (#586358) Journal

        "ongoing occupation?"

        There's, what, the British Virgin Islands and Guadeloupe? The rest of the western hemisphere has been self-governing for quite a while now. You might have heard of the American Revolution? Maybe Simon Bolivar?

        Or maybe you intend an indictment against people of European descent in the western hemisphere for having the audacity to exist.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @05:17PM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @05:17PM (#586422)

          The U.S. is not self governing. They do what the UK tells them to do, for instance, all middle east activities are under British command. The Americans feed them blood and ammo.

          And please, since when has anything south of the Rio Grande been anything close to 'self-governing'? That's just silly

          The entire western hemisphere is still a colony. The Europeans should move out and give the land back to the natives, just like the Ashkenazim should move out of Palestine and give the land back to its rightful owners.

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @06:21PM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @06:21PM (#586471)

            -1 Clearly Not From the Same Reality

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @11:04PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @11:04PM (#586630)

              Prove any inaccuracies or STFU! I express the REAL reality, the one your are afraid to look at. You hide behind your lying mass media and grampa's superstitions to comfort you.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @03:18PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @03:18PM (#586894)

                I reject your reality and substitute my own

            • (Score: 5, Funny) by unauthorized on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:29AM

              by unauthorized (3776) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:29AM (#586677)

              Typical SN. We have plenty of +1s for random political opinions, but a dimensional traveler gets a -1.

            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:30PM

              by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:30PM (#586836) Journal

              It's how we know the membranes separating the various slices of the multiverse are breaking down. The singularity is near.

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:15PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:15PM (#586387)

      Human beings in general have little value. There are over 7 billion of us.

      Some, like the Palestinians, rage against modernity. They would have us step back to the 7th century. There exists no place in the entire world where Islam coexists peacefully with anything other than the exact same variant of Islam.

      So no, the Palestinians don't have value as human beings. They'd be long dead if Israel were half as brutally violent as they are.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @08:35AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @08:35AM (#586774)

        -1, Simple Facts Hurt Too Much

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:52PM (10 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:52PM (#586406)

      Two xenophobic countries doing what they usually do, it is really just a "fuck education and culture, that is liberal propaganda anyway" along with saving half a billion bucks.

      The US was sooo stupid not to dump more money into solar, it would have been the best day ever when we could have pulled out of the Middle East and said "good luck assholes" to the whole place. Let them fight amongst themselves until they become a more proper first world area and can sort out their differences through twitter like the rest of us.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @05:14PM (9 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @05:14PM (#586419)

        It isn't "fuck education and culture, that is liberal propaganda anyway".

        It's closer to "fuck education and culture, because the only type being offered is liberal propaganda anyway".

        FYI, the conservative/rural/flyover/republican parts of the USA do have culture. It is relatively pristine in fact, being far less tainted by generic anonymous crowds of strangers.

        They also value education, but more as a means to a goal. Those who go off to college tend to end up in economics or engineering. Those who will spend their life serving coffee just do it, at the local truck stop, instead of first getting a hateful and expensive degree in gender studies. Education isn't best measured by dollars spent or years spent; one can spend many dollars and years pursuing useless nonsense.

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @06:33PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @06:33PM (#586479)

          Your post just glorifies stupidity and reeks of white supremacy.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:43PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:43PM (#586563)

            found the barista with the useless PhD in gender studies

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:50PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:50PM (#586565)

          FYI, the conservative/rural/flyover/republican parts of the USA do have culture

          Miracle Whip and jello with marshmallows in it, even if you add in the stringbean cassarole, is not enough to qualify as culture. Whiteness, as in Wonder Bread and Moby Dick, is not a culture either. Snowflake.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:13PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:13PM (#586574)

            We also have banjo music. That does it. The qualification is met. But wait, there's more!

            There's also square dancing, church-sponsored shooting events, chitterlings, 4H pig competitions, barbecue, rodeo, Bible study, rocky mountain oysters, General Lee's battle flag, tractor pulls, fried calf-brain sandwiches, NASCAR...

            Don't tell me you would reject a different culture! Come get some cultural enrichment.

            • (Score: 1) by DECbot on Tuesday October 24 2017, @04:15PM

              by DECbot (832) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @04:15PM (#586917) Journal

              You forgot the staple "pulled myself up by my own bootstraps." AKA, "Don't wait for random somebody to swing on by and improve your life, go out yourself and do honest work to improve your own life." Also, don't cause strife in your community, but find ways to improve it.

              --
              cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
          • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:33PM

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:33PM (#586838) Journal

            Indeed, the threshhold condition for a true culture is macaroni pictures and popcorn necklaces [youtube.com].

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by bob_super on Monday October 23 2017, @09:12PM (1 child)

          by bob_super (1357) on Monday October 23 2017, @09:12PM (#586573)

          > do have culture. It is relatively pristine in fact, being far less tainted by generic anonymous crowds of strangers.

          I'm at a loss as to whether this is more xenophobic, racist, not-invented-here-stic, or just plain dumb ignorance of history...
          A non-imperial gallon of all of the above, I would guess.

          > It's closer to "fuck education and culture, because the only type being offered is liberal propaganda anyway".

          "We, the people ... " : Total libtard bullshit, like what they teach in business schools and Christian colleges. Better to keep learning about the world on Fox News, I say !

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:28PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:28PM (#586587)

            Suppose we both have buckets for paint. I put one type of red paint in mine. You put every color in your bucket: red, blue, green, cyan, magenta, yellow, etc. Some of yours are latex paint, and some of yours are enamel paint. We both mix our paint.

            In the end, who has the paint with more color? I do; your's is brownish grey. Who has paint that works well? I do; your paint has incompatible types that may separate or react badly together. If you can see distinct colors at all, your paint is failing and is likely to flake off.

            It's like that with culture. Those flyover rural places have culture that is well-preserved. The cities have a mess of incompletely mixed cultures that are often hostile to each other.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:22PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:22PM (#586581)

          They value education... lol wut? Degree in Baptist Studies if you're smart or otherwise Manual Work with a minor in Ther Tekin Ar Jarrbs.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by RamiK on Monday October 23 2017, @05:43PM (17 children)

      by RamiK (1813) on Monday October 23 2017, @05:43PM (#586443)

      First off, read these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs [wikipedia.org] http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/10046 [israelnationalnews.com]

      Now, consider the following:

      1. The Jews are claiming Israel saying "It's ours because it's said so in the Bible" while the Palestinians are saying "It's ours because it's said so in the Quran". The problem is Israel was, like it or not, acknowledged by the UN as the national home of the Jews while Palestine isn't recognized as anything for Muslims (as opposed to Palestinians) even by other Arab nations. After-all, Muslims pray towards Mecca while Jews pray\ed towards Jerusalem for a reason. So, claiming a Muslim holy-site as a Palestinian one is just a fallacy.

      2. Back in UNESCO's heydays when they didn't serve as the puppets of EU politicians seeking the Muslim vote, they were careful not to take sides in the Israel\Palestine 2000 years old blood war of bible-thumping idiocy and made sure not to acknowledge anything in the land as anyone's thus avoiding this crusade inspiring cluster-fuck. They understood their place as an institute that was given a very limited function to promote conservation and channel funds towards that effect following the cultural destruction that took place in WW2 and the Chinese cultural revolution. However, they long since crossed the line from sending a few archeologists to help transfer museum exhibits away from the front lines to taking political sides.

      Overall, the US is right to leave UNESCO over this. Even if the Palestinian claim wasn't as weak, UNESCO should have either refused altogether or made sure to at least not attribute the "heritage" status to any one nation or people. That part of the world is filled with Church, Mosque and Synagogue burning and them adding fuel to the fire by taking sides isn't helping.

      p.s. Don't forget the Palestinian national identity is composed from both Christians and Muslims but if you're placating both by calling it Palestinian site, what stopping Rome or the Greeks from making a similar claim over whatever? It's a can-of-worms UNESCO should never have opened.

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      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 23 2017, @07:29PM (5 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday October 23 2017, @07:29PM (#586503) Journal

        Overall, the US is right to leave UNESCO over this. Even if the Palestinian claim wasn't as weak, UNESCO should have either refused altogether or made sure to at least not attribute the "heritage" status to any one nation or people. That part of the world is filled with Church, Mosque and Synagogue burning and them adding fuel to the fire by taking sides isn't helping.

        p.s. Don't forget the Palestinian national identity is composed from both Christians and Muslims but if you're placating both by calling it Palestinian site, what stopping Rome or the Greeks from making a similar claim over whatever? It's a can-of-worms UNESCO should never have opened.

        So it's OK for UNESCO to designate the Old City in Jerusalem as a world heritage site, but when they do it for Hebron to protect the tomb of Abraham that's a bridge too far? It doesn't even make sense, since Abraham is revered as the Patriarch of Jews in the Old Testament.

        Personally I don't care what particular religion the people in question are, and trying to disentangle the various ancient civilizations that have obtained there to determine who "owns" a particular site is a fool's errand. If it's a significant place in world heritage, it ought to be designated such. It takes exceptional Zionist bigotry to construe it as anti-Semitism.

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        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:37PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:37PM (#586597)

          One side swipes land, the other won't recognize one's existence as a country. Spank 'em both.

        • (Score: 2) by RamiK on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:58AM (3 children)

          by RamiK (1813) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:58AM (#586682)

          So it's OK for UNESCO to designate the Old City in Jerusalem as a world heritage site, but when they do it for Hebron...

          1. No it wasn't OK. Which is why United States opposed it at the time.

          2. Jerusalem is a world heritage site while Hebron is a Palestinian heritage site.

          3. It wasn't Israel who proposed Jerusalem as a world heritage site. It was Jordan.

          * Read and compare http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/148 [unesco.org] to http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1565 [unesco.org] .

          trying to disentangle the various ancient civilizations that have obtained there to determine who "owns" a particular site is a fool's errand.

          Then don't side with the people doing just that by claiming something to themselves that, at most, should be a world heritage site.

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          • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:14PM (2 children)

            by LoRdTAW (3755) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:14PM (#586860) Journal

            2. Jerusalem is a world heritage site while Hebron is a Palestinian heritage site.

            I'm a bit confused. In one of your links it is stated (emphasis mine):

            The use of a local limestone shaped the construction of the old town of Hebron/Al-Khalil during the Mamluk period between 1250 and 1517. The centre of interest of the town was the site of Al-Ibrahimi Mosque/The tomb of the Patriarchs whose buildings are in a compound built in the 1st century AD to protect the tombs of the patriarch Abraham/Ibrahim and his family. This place became a site of pilgrimage for the three monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

            That does not sound like a Palestinian heritage site.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:29PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:29PM (#587036)

              That's the point. Follow the links. UNESCO officially designed it Palestinian rather than a world heritage site.

              • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:49PM

                by LoRdTAW (3755) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:49PM (#587056) Journal

                Where? They are both listed under the World Heritage list.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Monday October 23 2017, @10:07PM (10 children)

        by Thexalon (636) on Monday October 23 2017, @10:07PM (#586608)

        The problem is Israel was, like it or not, acknowledged by the UN as the national home of the Jews while Palestine isn't recognized as anything for Muslims (as opposed to Palestinians) even by other Arab nations. After-all, Muslims pray towards Mecca while Jews pray\ed towards Jerusalem for a reason. So, claiming a Muslim holy-site as a Palestinian one is just a fallacy.

        Israel is recognized as a Jewish nation. So far, so good. And the UN did approve of the partition plan in 1947.

        The trouble with your argument is, well, everything else:
        1. Hebron lies outside of the Israeli portion of the partition plan from 1947. They wouldn't take control of it until 1967.

        2. Israel violated the partition plan almost immediately, taking over significant territory that had been designated by the UN as Arab, and also taking over most of Jerusalem (which was supposed to be a city-state separate from both Israeli and Arab control).

        3. The only reason that Israel has not been the subject of numerous UN condemnations is that the USA vetoes those condemnations in the Security Council. Clinging to UN resolutions as justification for why Israel is in the right here is disingenuous at best.

        4. The settling of Israeli civilians in what had been outside of Israel is expressly forbidden by the Geneva Conventions. Those clauses were created specifically to stop somebody from having the bright idea of trying to create lebensraum via warfare. And yes, I'm drawing an equivalence between what Israel is doing now what the Nazis did to the Czechs and Poles in the late 1930's.

        5. Hebron's historical and religious significance predates all of this by millenia. Hebron is a major religious site for Jews, and one of the 4 holy cities of Islam (the other 3 are Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem), mostly due to its association with the Biblical figure Abraham.

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        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
        • (Score: 2, Troll) by RamiK on Tuesday October 24 2017, @03:25AM (3 children)

          by RamiK (1813) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @03:25AM (#586704)

          By violated almost immediately, don't you mean got attacked by all the nations surrounding it in violation of the very same UN decision that you're defending and ended up with more territories then Israel was designated for? Moreover, are you seriously suggesting the world should send the message that whenever a UN resolution passes, it's OK to try and force a different result by genociding your neighbors since, worse case scenario, the same resolution will still apply and you won't end up worse off than when you started?

          3. The only reason those condemnations ever got a majority was with the knowledge that the US will veto them regardless making them a good way to placate the oil-providing Arab nations over the UN unwillingness to actually its decisions in the region.

          4. The Geneva conventions is a fine legal document that was signed between fine nations that largely ignored it as soon as war broke out.

          5. See my other post. But also, there's historical and religious significance to every pile of rubble in the region so I'm not sure what "one of the 4 holy cities of Islam" suggests. I'm pretty sure even if those cities were under Muslim governance, the Caliphate would still be required to expand under every interpretation of Sharia law I've read. So, I really don't see how any of this leads to peace in the middle east.

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          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @09:10AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @09:10AM (#586786)

            By violated almost immediately, don't you mean got attacked by all the nations surrounding it

            No. Violating it means occupying it for 50+ years and de-facto annexing it.

            I will not even raise the problems of Israel's ethnic cleansing of Arab populations few decades ago, or current policy of forcing Arab populations into ever smaller areas.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine [wikipedia.org]

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:51PM (1 child)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:51PM (#586848) Journal

            By violated almost immediately, don't you mean got attacked by all the nations surrounding it in violation of the very same UN decision that you're defending and ended up with more territories then Israel was designated for? Moreover, are you seriously suggesting the world should send the message that whenever a UN resolution passes, it's OK to try and force a different result by genociding your neighbors since, worse case scenario, the same resolution will still apply and you won't end up worse off than when you started?

            Oh yes, because the Zionist terrorists in Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi hadn't engaged in many decades of a terror campaign to force that UN resolution as a way to settle the sitation they inflamed. (as an aside: the PLA picked up their playbook of using terror to achieve a homeland because it had worked so fantastically well for the Zionists.) The poor, poor Zionist terrorists, such victims of their horrible mean neighbors for retaliating against decades of Jewish terrorism, right? They are such innocent victims.

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            Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:44PM (5 children)

          by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:44PM (#586844) Journal

          Israel is recognized as a Jewish nation.

          Why isn't this problematic for anyone else? It's a "Jewish" nation? How does it sound if we declare Britain to be a "white" nation? Why does the former sound OK to some people, but the latter does not? Let's formally and openly change immigration policy in the United States to give all white Christians a free pass to instant citizenship. Everyone OK with that, too? Because that's what Israel does for Jews.

          Israel is a country expressly built on a foundation of toxic bigotry. No civilized country, no democracy, ought to have anything to do with them. How telling is it that they were best buds with South Africa under apartheid? (they developed their nuclear program jointly with that country)

          They're a brain slug on the USA.

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          Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:27PM (4 children)

            by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:27PM (#586869)

            How does it sound if we declare Britain to be a "white" nation?

            The UK is actually officially an Anglican nation. The Archbishop of Canterbury has an official (although largely symbolic) position in the British government, and they receive a bit of government money. A number of other countries have similar kinds of relationships with the Catholic Church.

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            The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:48PM (3 children)

              by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:48PM (#586880) Journal

              OK. If that's the norm then why did everybody get so upset when George W. Bush called America a "Christian nation?" Why do they pan David Duke when he asserts America for white people? Is it only bad if they say things like that in America, but perfectly normal and acceptable elsewhere? Why the double standard?

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              Washington DC delenda est.
              • (Score: 2) by t-3 on Tuesday October 24 2017, @04:47PM (1 child)

                by t-3 (4907) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @04:47PM (#586927)

                Because America is supposed to be better, not an ethnic state, but a land where all can come live according to the ideals it was founded on; Liberty, justice, and freedom for all.

                • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday October 24 2017, @06:37PM

                  by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @06:37PM (#586988) Journal

                  Right. I agree.

                  So why do we support an ethnic, apartheid state like Israel but we didn't support the country that invented the word "apartheid?" Why did we demonize the Serbs for ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia when we apparently are just fine and dandy with the Israelis doing it to the Palestinians? Because reasons?

                  Why are we at the brink of war with North Korea for illegally acquiring nuclear weapons, but look the other way on Israel's? North Korea hasn't invaded or attacked anyone since the armistice 50 years ago, but in that span of time Israel has actually invaded its neighbors, what, at least 3 times? Why aren't we mobilizing our forces to kick Israel's ass for doing what Saddam did to Kuwait? Lemme guess--once again, because reasons?

                  An America that was truly about liberty, justice, and freedom for all would have squashed Israel like a bug a long time ago.

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                  Washington DC delenda est.
              • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday October 24 2017, @06:11PM

                by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @06:11PM (#586975)

                Because the United States has as one of its founding principles that we specifically don't have an official national religion. George Washington, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson were all extremely clear on that point, repeatedly. And if you're really unclear on why it would be a problem, replace the word "Christian" with the word "Muslim" and tell me whether everybody is still basically OK with it.

                Also, in many of those countries I mentioned, the governments have signed on to the European Convention of Human Rights, which provides the equivalent to the Free Exercise Clause in Article 9, and are steadily loosening the relationships between the church and state. For example, in the UK, the Archbishop of Canterbury's only duties related to the government involve performing ceremonies for the royal family, and advising the Queen if she asks him to.

                --
                The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday October 23 2017, @06:11PM (19 children)

      by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 23 2017, @06:11PM (#586466) Journal

      Yeah, Israel is pretty vile. But there doesn't seem to be any answer for them, either. Israel is quite small and has been surrounded by countries that have explicitly called for their destruction since nearly the date of their creation. The Palestinians have a convoluted history, but they haven't exactly been good guys either, and at some points they were explicitly working with outside powers for the destruction of Israel.

      So what can they do? I don't see any answer. Telling someone to fuck off and die, which is one of the alternatives, doesn't lead to reasonable behavior, and both sides have been told that. Often by the other side.

      I've only come up with one answer to the problem, and it's horribly repugnant, but if you were to confiscate all children under the age of six and raise them together without their knowing who their parents were that might work. This would need to be an on-going process for about 20 years, so that you had just over a generation of people who didn't know whether they were Israelites or Palestinians, but it ought to work. Now imagine the amount of coercion needed to get that plan put into operation.

      P.S.: Please include a tag for underline. I often need something less forceful than bold but more recognizable than italic.

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      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 23 2017, @07:01PM

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday October 23 2017, @07:01PM (#586491) Journal

        We can at least stop having anything to do with them, and relegate them to the same place in line for our attention as, hmm, checking the world's countries ranked by population [wikipedia.org], Tajikistan, Papua New Guinea, or Togo.

        Come to think of it, why not bring the struggles and issues of Tajiks, Papuans, or Togans (sp?) to the fore? It would be a breath of fresh air.

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        Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 2) by JNCF on Monday October 23 2017, @07:50PM

        by JNCF (4317) on Monday October 23 2017, @07:50PM (#586524) Journal

        P.S.: Please include a tag for underline. I often need something less forceful than bold but more recognizable than italic.

        Y̲o̲u̲ ̲c̲a̲n̲ ̲u̲s̲e̲ ̲c̲o̲m̲b̲i̲n̲i̲n̲g̲ ̲c̲h̲a̲r̲a̲c̲t̲e̲r̲s̲,̲ ̲l&#818;i&#818;k&#818;e&#818; &#818;t&#818;h&#818;e&#818;s&#818;e&.&#818; But yeah, a <u> tag would be nice.

      • (Score: 2) by Arik on Monday October 23 2017, @08:03PM (1 child)

        by Arik (4543) on Monday October 23 2017, @08:03PM (#586535) Journal
        "P.S.: Please include a tag for underline. I often need something less forceful than bold but more recognizable than italic."

        Those who forget text are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. Those that wait for others to implement their desire can wait a long time.

        P.S.: Please include a tag for _underline_. I often need something less forceful than *bold* but more recognizable than /italic/.

        See how much easier and quicker that was?
        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday October 23 2017, @11:09PM

          by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 23 2017, @11:09PM (#586635) Journal

          Easier, quicker, and less intelligible.

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          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday October 23 2017, @10:29PM (9 children)

        by Thexalon (636) on Monday October 23 2017, @10:29PM (#586617)

        But there doesn't seem to be any answer for them, either.

        Yes, there is an answer for them. They could do this without any approval from anybody outside of Israel:
        1. Remove the Jews illegally settled in the occupied territories over the last 20 years, or at least tell them "If you stay here, you're on your own, we're not going to protect you with our army."
        2. Retreat the armed forces to within the 1967 borders. Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself from within those borders.
        3. Let the Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese figure it out from there.

        That alternative and several variations of that basic idea have been discussed in Israeli politics for decades. Yitzak Rabin was working along those lines when he was assassinated. Prime ministers Ariel Sharon, Ehud Ohmert, and their Kadima Party were working along those lines, until they lost an election to the Likud Party.

        The Likud Party that is currently in power has made it abundantly clear that their answer to what to do about the occupied territories is to make them permanently a part of Israel, and be Jewish-dominated. They aren't shy about it - it's right in their charter. Multiple members of the current Israeli cabinet (Ayelet Shaked and Avigdor Lieberman) have called for all Arabs living in Israel or the occupied territories to be killed. One of the major reasons there isn't a lot of outcry about this from the US is that a lot of Americans basically agree with that goal, including the genocide part.

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        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
        • (Score: 2) by Arik on Monday October 23 2017, @10:43PM (2 children)

          by Arik (4543) on Monday October 23 2017, @10:43PM (#586625) Journal
          That sounds simple from the outside but unfortunately it would be incredibly difficult to actually do. Impossible, without some sort of major shift in the situation, frankly. It isn't like those settlers moved in against the will of the state - quite to the contrary. Oh it makes a show now and then about taking action on a specific illegal settlement, when it has to, but the general policy for many decades has been to encourage as many settlers as possible and everyone knows that. They don't want new apartments in Tel Aviv, for instance - they build them in the west bank instead. So for the Israeli state to take any serious action to slow down, let alone stop or reverse, the settlements would invite a massive backlash among the Israeli voters who have accepted government incentives to move there in the first place. It wouldn't be a small change, it would be a drastic reversal of a course that's been held pretty consistently since the country was founded.

          Remember that Israeli politicians answer to Israeli voters, not to anyone else, and think about how many of those Israeli voters would feel (and understandably so in some cases, some of these settlers are relatively moderate secular people and they are there because that is where they can find affordable housing, because that's where the state has focused building efforts...) betrayed by even the slightest move in this direction, and you can see why it's simply not going to happen as long as the US continues to effectively immunize them against the consequences. This sort of bitter medicine may well be required if Israel is to survive as a nation, but it's still not going to be possible unless and until the Israeli voters can see those consequences as the alternative.
          --
          If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
          • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday October 23 2017, @11:39PM

            by Thexalon (636) on Monday October 23 2017, @11:39PM (#586649)

            I didn't say it was simple or easy. However, that plan is the road not taken for Israel. If somebody were looking for an alternate history turning point, Rabin's assassin failing to kill him might well be worth exploring: It's quite possible had Rabin survived that Israel would have let go of the occupied territories, and that might well have meant far fewer people getting involved in terrorist groups.

            --
            The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @09:15AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @09:15AM (#586788)

            STOP USING TT TAG FOR YOUR TEXT. IT"S ANNOYING AS FUCK

        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday October 23 2017, @11:12PM (4 children)

          by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 23 2017, @11:12PM (#586638) Journal

          If you remember 20 years ago, you'll remember that the tensions weren't any less. I don't think your proposed solution would suffice.

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
          • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:18AM (3 children)

            by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:18AM (#586660)

            I do indeed remember what was going on in the early 1990's. And what was going on was that Israel struck deals with the PLO (now Fatah), Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. There were good reasons to think that there might be real movement towards a permanent if uneasy peace.

            That came to an end when Yitzak Rabin was killed. Hamas moved to break up the peace efforts by running a bunch of terrorist attacks, Rabin's party was voted out due to its inability to prevent those terrorist attacks, and both the Israeli right-wing and Palestinian right-wing effectively helped each other gain power at the expense of the peaceniks on both sides.

            --
            The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
            • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday October 24 2017, @05:26AM (2 children)

              by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 24 2017, @05:26AM (#586728) Journal

              And that's (part of) the problem both now and then. No moderate plan that's been proposed can survive the attacks of the radicals. And there are too many radicals on both sides.

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              Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:24AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:24AM (#586751)

                One solution:

                Nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @08:44AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @08:44AM (#586775)

                  That suggestion seems eerily similar to the battle of Armageddon.

                  Why not nuke Mecca first and see if that mellows the situation before walking into a path written down for you something on the order of 3,500 years ago.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @11:25PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @11:25PM (#586645)

          There would be less than 10 miles from the West Bank area to the Mediterranean Sea. Pretty much any type of artillery will fully span that distance. Having this spot attacked would split Israel in two.

          With the bulk of Israel's land being wrapped around the West Bank, artillery could reach nearly all of Israel, particularly the more populated areas.

          It's even worse though, because Israel has previously had to fight all neighbors simultaneously. There might be a spec of desert in southern Israel that would require high-end artillery to hit. Most would be easy to hit.

          There is also the matter of a water supply. Without that extra land, enemies can trivially cut off all water to Israel.

          With the West Bank and Gaza Strip being free to arm themselves, war would be a certainty.

      • (Score: 2) by TheRaven on Tuesday October 24 2017, @08:59AM (4 children)

        by TheRaven (270) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @08:59AM (#586779) Journal
        I wonder how pro-Israel the USA would be if Israel had been carved out of Texas.
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        sudo mod me up
        • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:02PM (3 children)

          by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @02:02PM (#586852) Journal

          They should have carved it out of Germany. That would have been a just thing to do.

          But, really, why should the Jews have been the only group persecuted in the Holocaust to get a country of their own out of it? Why not the Gypsies? Those poor bastards have been kicked around for a long time, too, and they were slaughtered in the millions by the Nazis, too. How about homosexuals? The handicapped? All rounded up and liquidated by the Nazis, but none of them got homelands as compensation.

          I oppose ethno-states of any kind, but if they're gonna take a Nazi-like approach of separating people into different states by race and religion, etc., at least be consistent about it.

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday October 24 2017, @05:16PM (2 children)

            by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 24 2017, @05:16PM (#586946) Journal

            Nobody knows where the Gypsies came from. People think they know where the Israelis came from. That they're wrong doesn't enter into political calculations.

            The other groups that you mention aren't even ostensibly nationalities.

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            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
            • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday October 24 2017, @06:37PM (1 child)

              by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @06:37PM (#586986)

              The Roma (called "Gypsies" by others, but never by themselves) came from the Indian subcontinent, probably somewhere near what is now the Punjab region. That has been determined by linguistic relationship between their language and Sanskrit, and also by genetic studies. So if we were going to do the same thing for the Roma that was done for the Jews, we would be giving them that area of India and Pakistan. This is something the Brits could have conceivably done, since that area was under British control at the time, but the Roma didn't have an equivalent of David ben Gurion agitating for a Roma homeland. And it's quite possible that there are more anti-Roma incidents in Europe these days than anti-Jewish incidents.

              Had the Brits given the Roma their homeland in Punjab, I have to guess that the people living in Punjab at the time would have been none too happy with that arrangement. India has been making some noises along the lines of making it easier for Roma to become Indian citizens if they want to.

              --
              The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
              • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday October 25 2017, @12:46AM

                by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday October 25 2017, @12:46AM (#587193) Journal

                Yes, there's a lot of evidence that the Romani have at least as much connection with somewhere around India as the Israelis have with Israel. But that all depends on how you figure connections. The Israeli were largely converted by government decree (and then refused to reconvert), and don't have much non-adopted connection (I'm talking about the ones that came from Russian controlled areas). The Romani, as far as I've ever heard, don't think of India as their homeland, even though many of their ancestors probably did come from there. So it's a very different kind of connection.

                That said, you're probably right about why the Israeli ended up in Israel and the Gypsies didn't end up in the Himalayas. But it wasn't all happenstance, and there's a reason the Israelis campaigned to end up in Israel and the Gypsies didn't campaign to end up in the Himalayas.

                --
                Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
    • (Score: 2) by Arik on Monday October 23 2017, @07:37PM (2 children)

      by Arik (4543) on Monday October 23 2017, @07:37PM (#586507) Journal
      "How do the heads at the NY Times not explode from the cognitive dissonance?"

      Doubleplusgood duckspeakers get immunity to such threats.

      --
      If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 23 2017, @07:45PM (1 child)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday October 23 2017, @07:45PM (#586518) Journal

        It's more than this issue, too. Does the NY Times want us to support the NFL because Trump attacked it, or does it want us to applaud because they hate football and its fans? Are we supposed to support the Republican party because Trump keeps attacking them, or hate them because they're bad and wrong? Are we supposed to hate Hollywood because of Weinstein or support them because they hate Trump?

        I am rapidly losing track of it all in the upside-down world we have entered.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:26PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:26PM (#586585)

          It's simple.

          NOISE NOISE NOISE NOISE NOISE NOISE NOISE NOISE

          Oh look, no room for any news. #SAD

          NOISE NOISE NOISE NOISE NOISE NOINSE NOINSE NOINSE

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by VLM on Monday October 23 2017, @02:31PM (3 children)

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 23 2017, @02:31PM (#586338)

    I suspect this might be the real cause of the falling out:

    We were in arrears to the tune of $550 million or so

    Not sure that we're getting our half billion bucks worth outta unesco.

    There's also some zillion dimensional chess going on as usual as the faithful opposition in the USA, the unified left wing legacy media, would blast Trump for abandoning our world heritage and all that BS if he hadn't turned it around into they hate the people who own all your media companies. This is fairly typical Trump. Up next: The reason we're building the wall is in some twisted way its anti-semitic not to build a wall, after all Israel has walls and the legacy media owners love it so we need to support Israel by building a wall. And then they'll be a NYT headline about "Trump supports Israel" with details buried in small print on page 7 that he's supporting Israel by building a wall.

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by curunir_wolf on Monday October 23 2017, @07:38PM (1 child)

      by curunir_wolf (4772) on Monday October 23 2017, @07:38PM (#586508)

      UNESCO is the propaganda arm of the UN, designing curriculum to indoctrinate children of the world into the ideology of the world's oligarchs. Why the US would be sending them that kind of money for promoting collectivism I have no idea.

      --
      I am a crackpot
      • (Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday October 24 2017, @06:17PM

        by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 24 2017, @06:17PM (#586979)

        I think that's common core.

        AFAIK UNESCO is the place that waits until the feds determine the Grand Canyon is a nice park, then they rubber stamp the federal findings and do something with half a billion bucks. Golf, I suppose.

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by Arik on Monday October 23 2017, @07:48PM

      by Arik (4543) on Monday October 23 2017, @07:48PM (#586521) Journal
      "Up next: The reason we're building the wall is in some twisted way its anti-semitic not to build a wall, after all Israel has walls and the legacy media owners love it so we need to support Israel by building a wall. And then they'll be a NYT headline about "Trump supports Israel" with details buried in small print on page 7 that he's supporting Israel by building a wall."

      For bonus points he will imitate the Israelis in planning the course of the wall, and it will be built 10 miles south of the border.
      --
      If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by tangomargarine on Monday October 23 2017, @02:41PM

    by tangomargarine (667) on Monday October 23 2017, @02:41PM (#586342)

    The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization

    --
    "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
  • (Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @02:57PM (4 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @02:57PM (#586350)

    Worth noting that Israel is a contender for the construction contract. So it's a "win win". The 550M$ should just about pay for a few meters of the wall when built and all the graft is accrued. Only 100B$ to go!

    /sarc

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:42PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:42PM (#586403)

      Remember the ice rink in Central Park:

      http://blog.acton.org/archives/49418-donald-trump-ed-koch-and-the-ice-skating-rink-a-tale-of-bureaucracy.html [acton.org]

      Wall estimates are coming in way lower than $100 billion, but even at that price (about 5x over) the savings would be huge. We suffer losses bigger than $100 billion every year due to illegal aliens:

      https://fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers [fairus.org]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @05:38PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @05:38PM (#586437)

        And only morons think the wall will do much good. Long live pork!

        From the man's own mouth:
        "... there's no ladder going over that. If they ever go up there, they're in trouble, because here's no way to get down. Maybe a rope."

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:54PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @08:54PM (#586568)

          It is easy to break a window on your house or car. A crowbar can quickly pop open a normal household door.

          Go ahead, I dare you. Remove all the locks at least. Maybe remove the doors and windows entirely. Post about it regularly on Craigslist and Facebook and Twitter to make sure this is well-known. Be sure to let everybody know when and where the guards (your family) will be, in case anybody would factor that into their decision making.

          You know it, I know it, we all know it: physical deterrents work very well. Perfection is not required.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:50PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @09:50PM (#586605)

            Physical deterrents... oh you mean like 100 miles of desert? But that rope trick will be the last straw. Noone will dare cross deserts to risk facing a 30ft wall.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by inertnet on Monday October 23 2017, @03:58PM (3 children)

    by inertnet (4071) on Monday October 23 2017, @03:58PM (#586379) Journal
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by fritsd on Monday October 23 2017, @05:43PM (2 children)

      by fritsd (4586) on Monday October 23 2017, @05:43PM (#586444) Journal

      Wow that's ridiculous.

      Who made those ridiculous US laws that said: "if the Palestinians are in, we're out"? A superpower, tieing its hands to whatever just 1 of the other 195 countries' foreign policy du jour is!

      What happened to Realpolitik: "If the Palestinians are in, we'll decide for ourselves whether we stay or leave"?

      Maybe it's just about the money, and some US reincarnation of Hermann Göring remembered the saying: "Whenever I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my revolver". Sounds very American, TBH.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by khallow on Monday October 23 2017, @07:25PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 23 2017, @07:25PM (#586501) Journal
        Focused special interest routinely trumps a diffuse public interest.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Monday October 23 2017, @09:21PM

        by bob_super (1357) on Monday October 23 2017, @09:21PM (#586580)

        > Who made those ridiculous US laws that said: "if the Palestinians are in, we're out"?

        AIPAC [wikipedia.org], more than likely, quite literally wrote that law.

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