from the backstabbing-on-the-syrian-front dept.
US to stop arming anti-IS Syrian Kurdish YPG militia - Turkey
The US is to stop supplying arms to the Syrian Kurdish militia the YPG, Turkey has said. Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said President Donald Trump had made the promise in a phone call to his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The White House said it was making "adjustments" to its support for partners inside Syria but did not explicitly name the YPG.
Turkey has long complained about US support for the group. Washington has viewed the YPG as a key player in the fight against so-called Islamic State (IS), but Ankara brands the group's fighters as terrorists. Turkey says the YPG is as an extension of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), a group it has been fighting for decades in south-eastern Turkey. The US, however, has seen the YPG as distinct from the PKK. In May it announced it would supply arms to the Kurdish elements of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), which were poised to drive IS from its stronghold of Raqqa. It had previously armed only Arab elements of the SDF.
Goodbye, Kurdistan?
Also at Reuters, NPR, Daily Sabah, and RT.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 26 2017, @11:08AM (10 children)
The vote for independence really did it for them. Something like Kurdistan may exist, in 100 or 200 years. But people are impatient and are unwilling to wait.
People forget that the only way to stop these stupid wars is to move towards a more united planet. Every time we want "independence" we end up with conflict. Do people not learn from history and their own mistakes?
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 26 2017, @11:48AM (9 children)
Awww, how cute. Little fellow thinks that independence comes with patience. He's probably completely unaware that Turkey has a history of genocide. In reality, if the Kurds wait around for 100 years, hoping that Turkey and bordering nations grant them independence, there will be no more Kurds. All the Kurds will be rounded up, assembled in one central location, then marched out into some barren, desert land, and left to die of thirst and starvation. Hell, the Germans were slightly better than Turkey. They didn't keep the Jews "well fed", but they did feed the Jews until they were ready to kill them. If you wish to overcome your naivete, you could do a search for Armenian genocide, Assyrian genocide, Hamidian massacre, and so many more.
Oh, wikipedia has a whole list of genocides and massacres by the Ottoman and Turkey. Notice, the list doesn't end - there are 5 mass killings in the past two years, and an additional twelve within my own lifetime. Total, 17 massacres in the past 60 years, or, approximately one every four years.
Now - the situation from MY perspective is, Turkey has always been a shitty ally. Despite their constitution, which forbids the government being run by Islam, Erdogan is a Muslim. He envisions the return of the Caliphate, and actually hopes to be the Caliph - or that one of his descendants might be the Caliph. Erdogan sees the Caliph ruling a vast empire, at least as large as the Ottoman. Erdogan will slaughter anyone who might stand in the way of his vision. MAGA? Erdogan is all about MTGA. He, and all of his predecessors have a very bloody history. Even Ataturk, the renowned founder of the Republic of Turkey. As president, he reigned over one outright massacre - the Zilan massacre (~15,000 dead), as well as the suppression of the Dersim rebellion (~13,000 dead).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey [wikipedia.org]
We, the United States, also have a history of abandoning inconvenient allies. Ask Vietnam, and it's neighbors. Ask the Sunni in Iraq. The first Bush promised the Sunni all kinds of support, if they would ease our was into Iraq in the first Gulf War. Then, we abandoned them.
Read history, youngster, and learn about liberty and patience. Patience leads to the hangman's noose, or worse.
The only ways for the Kurds to survive are, 1- convert to Islam 2- submit to slavery 3- fight for survival. Since they are already fighting for their very survival, they might as well fight for independence.
And, I'll also point out that the UK is responsible for the plight of the Kurds. When the UK was busy colonizing, and breaking up the Ottoman, those fucking English divided that land up according to some percieved scheme of profitability. They gave zero thought to ethnic groups. They COULD HAVE created a Kurdistan, right then, and today, there would be a stable country between Turkey, Syria, and Iraq. But - no - the English betrayed them, and sold them to their enemies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kurds [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 5, Informative) by takyon on Sunday November 26 2017, @01:10PM (1 child)
Correction: Kurds [wikipedia.org] are already mostly Muslims. They just happen to be friendlier to the U.S. [thekurdishproject.org] than most. At least, until we threw them under the bus this week to appease our flaky ally, NATO's resident dictator.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 26 2017, @08:51PM
The only thing the Shi'a and Sunni hate more than each other is the Kurds. And for anyone who is unaware, Ataturk's original rebellion and the more recently attempted Turkish Military Coup were in fact about ending religious extremism and racial, religious, political persecution in Turkey.
Go look up 'Michael Israel'. SN&R did an article on him 6+ months back.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 26 2017, @06:12PM (2 children)
How cute, an idiot thinks violence is only solution. Maybe look at history of the world a little? 100+ MILLION dead and nothing really changed. Only successful changes come from NEGOTIATIONS.
Maybe you should read some books instead of bullshitting here.
Oh boo-fucking-hoo you fucking idiot. There are MILLIONS of people that will die if you have a war. You seem to forget that? Magic will happen and everyone will be peaceful of only a few people get some guns? Look at Myanmar (who's stopping that genocide???). Look at Syria. Look at Libya. The Congo War. Yemen. Fucking hell, how stupid are you? Listing some idiots with a gun and 20 people dead as some horrible massacre? USA has those almost every other week and they are not even a war zone. The only thing preventing ethnic cleansing is *peace*.
But no. You want a war. You want 1,000,000+ dead or 100+ of those biggest massacres you listed but all at once? You want that because you can't imagine the consequences of not doing something peacefully.
You want fucking independence, you put your ass on the line like Gandhi did. But as soon as you raise guns, you are fucking over everyone. And if you were in my community claiming you "fight for my independence", I'll shoot you myself. I want order and peace, not some asshole clamming they want peace for me while contributing to death of my loves ones. Fuck independence - independence is only for power hungry assholes. Order and stability is what people want and need.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 26 2017, @07:10PM
You must forgive Runaway. After all, he is 'merican. Violence and having sex with firearms is in his nature. Did I ever tell you the story about the frog and the scorpion, and Runaway1926?
(Score: 4, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 26 2017, @07:16PM
YOU take off the rose colored glasses, then YOU look at history.
"And if you were in my community claiming you "fight for my independence", I'll shoot you myself."
And, you're a fucking hypocrite. Not to mention, an idiot. You're going to shoot me? Then, you've chosen sides, you've picked up arms, and you've entered the war. You, your home, your kin, everything that you cherish is forfeit, just because you exist. And, the enemy has a long, long, memory. THAT is why the Turks are trying so very hard to kill off the Kurds. And, the Yazidi. Not to mention a few dozen other small tribes that almost no one has ever heard of.
"And if you were in my community claiming you "fight for my independence", I'll shoot you myself."
You sure talk a tough story. I'm an old bastard today - but I have the TRAINING to use my weapons. Nothing that you've posted suggests that you know which end of the firestick goes "boom". And, nothing you've posted suggests that you've ever been at the sharp end. You're just going to pick up a weapon, and take me on? Christ on a crutch - you naive children have no concept. Here - read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant [wikipedia.org]
If you can wrap your mind around that parable, you MAY be ready to understand this post: http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Galloway_062304,00.html [military.com]
Go ahead, talk shit.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Sunday November 26 2017, @07:15PM (2 children)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 26 2017, @07:18PM (1 child)
And, you were expecting - what? Does venality and corruption deprive you or me of independence? The UK is going to revoke our Indepence Day? They're just going to take it back?
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday November 26 2017, @08:41PM
Does venality and corruption deprive you or me of independence?
No, but they can and probably should deny you of outside support. But, you know, Russia and China are waiting in the wings should the US and Europe withdraw. As always market forces shall prevail [nytimes.com]. I doubt the subject of "independence" ever comes up in the war room.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 26 2017, @09:34PM
When did that happen? Did I miss the news? Can you give me a link to Fox news that covers the events you mention, Murican?
(Score: 2) by looorg on Sunday November 26 2017, @11:31AM (2 children)
This isn't really that odd to begin with. Giving arms to the kurds pisses off at least three nations - Turkey, Iran and Iraq - since part of their nations form the basis of the new, imaginary, Kurdish nation and they don't want that. Since Iraq is currently an American puppet regime, Turkey is a NATO-member and Iran isn't yet on the to-nuke-list one doesn't have to piss them off to much by helping to arm a really large and organized insurgent group. Arming them to beat back IS could have been a great move, after all they die for next to nothing instead of engaging in another middle eastern war with actual american boots on the ground -- even tho they are there already but just not on a massive scale.
Historically it doesn't seem like the USA (or anyone for that matter) has the best track-record for arming insurgent groups since they almost always turn on their benefactors in the end in one way or another. Certainly so when the good times, cash- and weapon shipments stops arriving and they feel screwed over by Uncle Sam. They seem to believe it will go on to the end while the benefactors stop for one reason or another, usually some scandal of epic proportions or they feel like the job is done. IS is now "defeated" so it's mission accomplished, they are not going to keep feeding them so that they can topple the Syrian regime -- that would would anger Russia and other nations in the region. So instead you'll now have a bunch of heavily armed kurds sitting in norther Iraq getting that old feeling of being betrayed. Good times ahead ...
(Score: 5, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 26 2017, @11:51AM (1 child)
Regarding that "imaginary" Kurdish nation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres [wikipedia.org]
The Treaty of Sèvres (French: Traité de Sèvres) was one of a series of treaties[3] that the Central Powers signed after their defeat in World War I. Hostilities had already ended with the Armistice of Mudros. The treaty was signed on 10 August 1920, in an exhibition room at the Manufacture nationale de Sèvres porcelain factory[4] in Sèvres, France.[5]
The Sèvres treaty marked the beginning of the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire, and its ultimate annihilation. The terms it stipulated included the renunciation of all non-Turkish territory and its cession to the Allied administration.[6] Notably, the ceding of Eastern Mediterranean lands allowed the creation of new forms of government, including Mandatory Palestine and the French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon.[7]
The terms of the treaty stirred hostility and nationalist feeling amongst Turks. The signatories of the treaty were stripped of their citizenship by the Grand National Assembly led by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk,[8] and the treaty ultimately led to the Turkish War of Independence in which Atatürk led the Turkish nationalists to defeating the combined armies of the signatories of the Treaty of Sèvres including the remnants of the Ottoman Empire. This led to a new treaty, the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, in which Turkish sovereignty was preserved through the establishment of the modern-day Republic of Turkey.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday November 26 2017, @09:47PM
The Sykes–Picot Agreement [wikipedia.org] was the stab in the back for the Arabs and Kurds (and all the other people of the Middle East who should have been given independence) by France and Britain.
It was kept secret because Britain was lying to it's allies the Arabs about what they were going to get post-war.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 26 2017, @11:38AM
Ahahaha! If anyone has a bridge to sell, I think I found a mark :)
(Score: 5, Informative) by takyon on Sunday November 26 2017, @12:06PM
http://www.arabnews.com/node/1199131/middle-east [arabnews.com]
They are absolutely fucked.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Gaaark on Sunday November 26 2017, @02:27PM (2 children)
They'll stop selling guns to A.
They won't stop selling guns to B, though.
B then sells guns to A.
American rich keep profiting and people keep dying.
I wonder about the U.S. military, though: A gets taken down or succeeds, and someone gets pissed off at America. American made (and profited) weapons THEN get used against American soldiers who die because Daddy wasn't rich enough to keep them out of the military/front lines.....
It's a mad mad mad mad world.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Insightful) by mhajicek on Sunday November 26 2017, @06:32PM
That consequence is not unintended. Then the industry sells more to the US military for even more profit.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday November 26 2017, @07:27PM
Exactly... They stopped directly arming the YPG. Now they have to go through "channels". Gee, too bad Benghazi was shut down. I heard they were pretty reliable... I guess Al-Qaeda will have to suffice for now.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Sunday November 26 2017, @07:10PM
In other news, the Pentagon is fessing up to having 2k troops in Syria illegally and doesn't appear to have any plans to withdraw them. These guys have been there to support the YPG in rooting out daesh, if we are no longer tight with the kurds then their living arrangements could get very complicated very quickly.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday November 26 2017, @07:35PM
Sounds like nothing more than a disagreement over the price.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Sulla on Monday November 27 2017, @02:11AM
I have been following maps of Syria/Iraq since a little after the US pres election, maps bring in twitter comments from what is going on the ground, diplomatic wires, etc. The one I prefer is globaleventmap.org.
It appears that both Russia and the US want the Kurds to have more power within their resident countries but not to have a Kurdistan. Everytime the US steps back from supporting the Kurds for poltical reasons the Russians extend them an olive branch, the reverse happens as well. The Kurds will see a greater degree of autonomy than they had in the past in Iraq, and things are not looking bad (currently) in Syria. Overall the Kurds and Syrians have managed to avoid exchanging fire and have worked together in some of the southeast towns to roust Isis. Putin told Assad that the end of the war will mean the Kurds will get a deal like in Iraq, with positions in parliment.
Trump had us stop arming the Syrian rebels and the pockets near Jordan and Iraq evaporated, pockets by Turkey and Isreal remain. I presume that lack of full Kurd autonomy is part of the deal for these pockets going back to Assad.
Pretty positive stuff going on in the middle east. The Syrian/Isreal DMZ is sad times but necessary.
Sorry if doesnt make a lot of sense, fever+o
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam