https://www.wsj.com/articles/popes-china-calculation-clashes-with-image-as-champion-of-oppressed-1517600924
http://archive.is/8KMX1
Pope Francis ' recent decision to replace two Chinese bishops loyal to Rome with selectees of the country's Communist government, heralding his broader moves to reset the Vatican's ties with Beijing, has drawn cries of betrayal from advocates of the country's long-persecuted "underground" Catholic Church.
The pope's actions in China are characteristic of a leader who has repeatedly practiced realpolitik to achieve important goals. But they clash with Pope Francis' image among many Catholics and others as a defender of the oppressed—a profile likely to be further tested by his campaign to improve Vatican-China relations after seven decades of estrangement.
The pope has decided to recognize seven government-appointed Chinese bishops, according to a person familiar with the matter, in a major concession to Beijing in pursuit of warmer relations and—in the very long term—possible reestablishment of diplomatic ties broken in 1951. As part of that decision, Pope Francis has moved to replace two bishops loyal to the Vatican with prelates from China's state-controlled Catholic church.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:03AM
If only the Pope had tried this approach with that wild despot of a country far to the West, Henry VIII!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by MostCynical on Monday February 05 2018, @09:13AM (14 children)
the Pope has to admit the entire Church exists only as a giant Ponzi scheme, with a sideline in real estate.
No need to threaten the Communist Party, just join forces in property investment!
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday February 05 2018, @09:18AM (13 children)
A Ponzi scgeme promises RoI on the same kind for the... umm... contributors.
The church promises the rewards of other nature and in another world.
Not quite a Ponzi scheme, no.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Insightful) by MostCynical on Monday February 05 2018, @09:26AM
Give and keep giving to your local church, with the promise of Salvation/Heaven/not hell for eternity.
Pretty good ROI, for a Believer. (Actually, better than a Ponzi scheme, as no one has yet found a way to sue for failure to deliver)
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 3, Funny) by looorg on Monday February 05 2018, @09:31AM (11 children)
A supernatural ponzi scheme then?
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday February 05 2018, @02:56PM (10 children)
In a Ponzi scheme no actual product is delivered. So yes, presuming it isn't actually true. And I believe we'll all find out the truth eventually on that one. (Or you won't.) Ricoeur's Wager would be persuasive to me to take the bet if I weren't already persuaded by other reasoning.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 05 2018, @04:13PM (5 children)
A little reading of Ancient Near-East mythology, comparative religion, and logic will dissuade you of that one. I'm no atheist, but I also know enough about the former subjects to know that if the Abrahamic God exists, *he's* the maximally-evil being, not his supposed antithesis Satan.
And, have you thought for a moment about what real immortality would entail? Not just "living a long damn time," but actual, conscious, eternal existence. It would be eternal Hell. At some point, no matter how fast your God expands your mental capacity and gives you new experience, things would start to loop. You would have spent $IMPOSSIBLY_BIGNUM years voluntarily suffering the kind of torture it's impossible for us even to imagine in numbers of permutations we can't conceive of JUST to have something new to experience. And you'd still start looping at some point.
No, there's the thing none of the greedy believers ever stop to think about: eternity, for any mind that is not-God, becomes inescapable torment. And don't try to get out of this with "well God could wipe your memory then." In this context, that's equivalent to partial or full death, i.e., reincarnation, *not* eternal continuation proper.
The more you start to think about this thing's actual promises, the more you start to see how insane and evil it must be if it exists.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @05:40PM (1 child)
Are you sure? Because you sure complain like one.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 05 2018, @08:46PM
Quite sure. And if my "complaining" bothers you, snowflake, you can go elsewhere.
Look at it this way: I'm the loyal opposition. I've seen enough bad religion to be even more upset with it than atheists are, because it gets in the way of good religion.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Monday February 05 2018, @06:41PM
No, there's the thing none of the greedy believers ever stop to think about: eternity, for any mind that is not-God, becomes inescapable torment. And don't try to get out of this with "well God could wipe your memory then." In this context, that's equivalent to partial or full death, i.e., reincarnation, *not* eternal continuation proper.
I read some sorta-sci-fi book ages ago where they had this premise that people (or whatever sentient species) were really manifestations of some immortal soul, so basically these immortal beings all live in some plane of existence, but as you say, it gets pretty boring after a while, so they incarnate into a new body somewhere, and live out a lifetime there, and then die and return to the eternal plane. Perhaps that would make immortality bearable: every time you live a lifetime, you're starting fresh, with no memories, but you're not actually "dying" since once that body dies and you return to the eternal plane, you have full access to all the memories from that lifetime, plus all the other lifetimes you experienced, so no information is really being lost.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:05PM (1 child)
Agree. Or at least he would be if he were omnipotent. The inherent logical contradictions of his typical sales pitch to pre-technological cultures aside, Yahweh is an Anunnaki, and he's wanted for crimes against intelligent life in 9 systems. (The whales here on Earth very likely have an open-and-shut case against him.)
He's the one who gives the Anunnaki a bad name. Humanity had been put on a solid trajectory for acceptance in the Galactic Federation within 2k to 3k years under Anunnaki sponsorship. He ghost wrote that book "Revelation," not only because the extrapolations in there are obvious to anybody who's seen the sociological data Enki's expeditionary group published, but to sneak in a clever meme to attempt to prevent the Queen of Heaven from stepping in and initiating an emergency first contact.
Should the "whore of Babylon" (gee, who else makes up funny little nicknames for his opponents?) make her presence overtly known and begin performing "miracles" (demonstrating sufficiently advanced technology pursuant to an emergency first contact scenario), what will the humans do now that their global culture is almost entirely under the control of Yahweh's lies?
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday February 07 2018, @03:53AM
The sad thing is, that is massively more coherent than the actual plot of Christianity. And, say, Mass Effect 3.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @05:25PM (3 children)
You will find out. Just watch the sunrises and sunsets for six months, and then explain it.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @06:36PM (2 children)
And make sure to shut your brain off before trying to explain it, if you want to think like a theist.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @06:54PM (1 child)
No, you're going to need to turn your brain up higher than you've ever done. There is a question you've never had.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @07:57PM
But will you UNDERSTAND the question?
Forty-two?!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by marcello_dl on Monday February 05 2018, @09:56AM (5 children)
> The pope's actions in China are characteristic of a leader who has repeatedly practiced realpolitik to achieve important goals.
Field day for jesuits' critics.
"The end justifies the means" is not quite part of the fundamentals of christianity, even if the upper layers of the church resort routinely to it.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 05 2018, @04:15PM (4 children)
Are you sure it isn't? Maybe not for humans but it sure seems Yahweh is all about the ends justifying the means. Divine Command Theory is a bitch, especially when you think about what it entails for the one doing the commanding...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Troll) by Bot on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:50PM (3 children)
Divine command theory does not remove personal responsibility, else there would be no sainthood for those who obey. This, if I understood correctly that you see the divine command as the end justifying the means, but you have already deviated because "I was following orders" is independent from a judgment of the orders itself.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:13PM (2 children)
Oh Christ on a cracker, YOU again.
No, you ignorant, philosophically-naive jackoff, DCT is *empty.* It does not and cannot ground morals because it's a small collection of empty tautologies. Not, of course, that I expect someone with your shaky grasp of basic logic to be able to follow how and why...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:49PM (1 child)
hello there
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday February 06 2018, @08:54PM
Heat, kitchen, etc.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 4, Interesting) by c0lo on Monday February 05 2018, @10:20AM (1 child)
... what would you say if in 3 years, by a miracle (with some zeroes in the tail), those seven government-appointed Chinese bishops will be loyal to the Vatican, mmm? Wanna bet they will all die of... ummm... natural causes?
Once the cordial relationship are established, neither of the parties will be willing to lose face by spiting the other directly and both the Catholic church and the Chinese are well versed in dancing diplomatic minuets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Monday February 05 2018, @05:58PM
> both the Catholic church and the Chinese are well versed in dancing diplomatic minuets.
The Church (the Roman Catholic one) has been dealing with every type of human government for lots of centuries, and therefore knows well what actions bring the desired results in the long term.
The Chinese love to play the long game, and Dem Commies have been winning at it (don't look tired of winning, either). The Church is one of the few entities who can rival them at it.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Monday February 05 2018, @11:09AM (1 child)
So... These new guys molest MORE children or less than the old ones? Article doesn't say.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday February 05 2018, @03:45PM
So... These new guys molest MORE children or less than the old ones? Article doesn't say.
That's because there's no way to know yet. I don't think we have any recent examples of similar moves to compare to.
However, given the fact that Vatican-loyal bishops have already proven themselves to be molesters or abetters of molesters, and given the harsh way the Chinese government doles out punishment, I would be willing to bet that the new guys will molest fewer, or no, children.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @11:12AM (1 child)
... if China's Catholic church is state-controlled, then it is not a Catholic church. (The English state-controlled Catholic church is known as the 'Church of England'; it describes itself as 'Reformed Catholic'). Hence, the Chinese 'Catholic' Church answers to Beijing and not Rome; hence, the Pope has no authority to appoint bishops to it.
I'm surprised Pope Francis hasn't thought of this as a get-out. The difficult part of course would be how to do it without implicitly or otherwise excommunicating all Chinese Catholics.
(Score: 1, Troll) by marcello_dl on Monday February 05 2018, @12:23PM
> I'm surprised Pope Francis hasn't thought of this as a get-out
never attribute to incompetence what can adequately be explained by being the antichrist.
(JK, he seems too diplomatic for a proper antichrist, but maybe if the number of man AKA 666 is literally the number of man - six symbolizes man - repeated, meaning exasperated humanism encompassing divinity itself, then, uh... we are already there)
(Score: 4, Disagree) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @12:19PM (7 children)
Wait, so there's more than one Pope Francis? You only leave the "s" off after the apostrophe if the word is both plural and ends with an "s". If there's only one Pope Francis, the proper spelling is "Francis's".
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Funny) by marcello_dl on Monday February 05 2018, @12:57PM (2 children)
> confused about Francis
Please take a number
Now serving 39452823
(Score: 2, Funny) by nitehawk214 on Monday February 05 2018, @05:34PM (1 child)
WHERE'S FRANCIS?
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday February 05 2018, @05:37PM
"We ain't got nobody here by that name."
"Hey! Hey, are those my new clamps?"
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by jdavidb on Monday February 05 2018, @01:17PM (2 children)
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 4, Informative) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday February 05 2018, @03:00PM (1 child)
Nope. Franciscusi.
English, Francises.
But I guess I'm a crusty prescriptivist.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:52PM
Franciscus
Franscisci genitive
Francisco dative, ablative
Franciscum accusative
Francisce vocative
How dare you not know Latin in the age of Google.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 3, Informative) by tfried on Monday February 05 2018, @07:42PM
Seems your position is in the majority these days, but not undisputed: https://www.dailywritingtips.com/possessive-of-proper-names-ending-in-s/ [dailywritingtips.com]