Small town Republican thoughts on refuting the alt-right. In The Republican Journal:
I want to make one thing very clear: The Waldo County Republican Committee absolutely, unequivocally condemns Nazi and KKK ideologies and actions, as well as any other kind of bigotry, and we encourage all of our voters and the community at large to do the same.
For fellow Republicans out there, worry not, we don't like Antifa's ideology and actions either, but we need to clean our own house; we need to worry about our own responsibilities.
Such honesty, and clarity of thought!
The most dangerous part of politics today is identity politics, trolling, pathos and a severe lack of critical thinking. You cannot defeat the insidious hatred of bigoted politics with more hate. By doing so, you morph the conversation away from policy and ideology to silly label syntax, eventually devolving completely into back and forth verbal gymnastics. Make no mistake, these trolls are ready for you as you stoop to their level, and they beat you up with mountains of experience.
So what do we do? Very simple. Stay neighborly by controlling your reaction. Seek out those with whom you disagree, try to understand them first, and politely offer your counter argument.
And it looks like the Republicans in Maine, if not in Illinois, are rejecting the alt-right.
The way to defeat Mr. Kawczynski is not by attacking him, but by attacking his ideas. Here are some flaws in his thinking: His immigration ideas are antithetical to the Maine Republican party platform, a section of which states, "We support the assimilation of legal immigrants into Maine society."
Kawczynski's ideas stand in contrast to Maine history and culture; in fact, it is white folks with racist ideologies who pose the greatest threat to Maine's foundation, not other races of people.
Another brilliant tidbit:
Ultimately, all you have to do is walk outside with your eyes open in this state to see that Kawczynski's fearmongering about "white genocide" is completely laughable.
Entire guest column is well worth a read.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Gaaark on Friday February 09 2018, @12:48PM (93 children)
Nothing to see here.
Pity post?
I mean, really? There is no meat: "Where's the beef?"
How about a story about dogs masturbating against people legs?
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 5, Informative) by Gaaark on Friday February 09 2018, @12:53PM
This should have been a journal entry.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Friday February 09 2018, @01:43PM (64 children)
The beef is right there under your nose - it's people starting:
- to reject gap politics - wasted time and effort in focusing what divides the American rather than what they have in common (that is, heaps of everyday problems)
- to reject the elements of division in their own house - isn't it easier to start with what is under your control?
Looking from outside, I see common sense creeping in.
What, you'd prefer the spectacular? Spectacular will get you nowhere, heroic gestures will only lead to more infight in American society.
Guess who's winning from spectacular? Take a hint: it ain't the common person.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Gaaark on Friday February 09 2018, @04:16PM (24 children)
"Common sense creeping in"
I still go with 'So?'
This is still a journal entry, not an article for submission.
Mod me down, mod me down...lordy lordy mod me down, but Aristarchus STILL can't write a good story.
PUT IT IN YOUR JOURNAL!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @04:34PM (3 children)
Trigger harder bitch!!
Yes I know its flamebait, it is not productive, but I don't care. Gaark can fuck right off and go melt somewhere else.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @10:54PM (2 children)
It isn't Gaark who has melted down here - you're projecting.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @11:49PM (1 child)
Eh you wish. The instant knee jerk reactions from so many of the alt-rightish users speaks volumes. I'm just completely fed up with the amount of head-in-sand syndrome that goes on around here. Other terrible "articles" make it in here all the time and this is news, just not to some people around here who want to pretend they are the oppressed majority of Republicans and Libertarians. The news that many Republicans are starting to put their foot down on such bullshit is apparently too much too handle.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday February 11 2018, @07:08PM
I am NOT an "alt-rightish user", i just call em as i see em.... journal entry!
Many Republicans fart a lot... news? OH SHIT, YEAH!
Errrrrmm....no.
Just because some people have opinions does not make it news.
JOURNAL ENTRY!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 1, Troll) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:02AM (19 children)
So, because of the form, you'd rather have the message hidden away?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0, Troll) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @01:36AM (18 children)
No...like i said, it is maybe worthy of a journal entry.
Put crap in there all you want and let readers read if they want to.
When he learns to submit something GOOD, THEN! put it into a submission.
I'm not advocating blocking his speech: just don't post it as a submission when it is AT BEST a journal entry.
Crap is crap, whinging is whinging: these are what Aristarchus does. When he learns to submit something worthy, i for one will look forward to reading it (which is why i read the submission in the FIRST PLACE. I thought maybe he'd submitted something worth reading. Instead, i got something worth (maybe) journalling.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @01:45AM (17 children)
From the entire content, there's exactly 5 terse phrases written by aristarchus - are you really that sensitive you can't ignore them and concentrate on the message?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @03:26AM (16 children)
I just don't think there is anything interesting in the whole submission: "some people have an opinion" is what it boils down to. Welp, i'm sure others in Where's Waldo County have other opinions. Let's hear THEM too. Damn, let's hear the opinions of everyone!
I just don't think there is anything worth posting on the front page here. IMHO it is a journal entry at best. That is all! THAT is MY opinion, but you seem to have a problem with that, but not with the opinions of 'some people' in Waldo County.
Opinions are opinions. Everyone has them, but i don't want to hear everyones opinion when it is really just a journal entry, not 'NEWS'.
Plus, it would be nice to see something else from Aristarchus instead of just "alt-right, alt-right...OhmeeeeGod! Teh alt-right!" I'd like to see an actual good submission worth reading from him, not (again) a journal entry.
I'm sure Ari has something else he could post about. Make it good, make it interesting and I AM THERE!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @03:47AM (15 children)
Your opinion noted.
One of the many.
Then you are free to ignore the ones you don't want to hear.
For me, for the reasons I already explained [soylentnews.org], this is notable and relevant news.
You don't too many occasions to see news on natural common-sense nowadays. People may even start to forget such a thing exist.
Then for the sake of God, why don't you ask this straight! Like: "ari, do note that your submission is inflaming my whatevs, can you please tone it down?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:03AM (8 children)
Okay, i accept your opinion about the article (i guess i just don't see the excitement)
but if you look at my past posts about Ari, i HAVE asked him to write better, write different, write intelligent, post crap to journal, on and on. He just likes posting crap and then whining and whinging about not getting accepted.
I have submitted crap and got rejected. I learned and improved, then i got accepted.
Ari submits crap and gets rejected. He whines and whinges and cries and yells and tantrums and then submits more crap that gets rejected. I don't get why people support him when all he does is crap and whine.
People who enable other people to be crap are not friends or supporters: it is like enabling a drunk to be a drunk. You should be telling him to stop submitting crap and whining about rejections: tell him to man up and write better!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:18AM (7 children)
Because when you sift the crap and whinging away, some pieces are gold (not quite all is crap and whine)
Say "fool's gold" if so you think, but... de gustibus.
Happens the same with ethanol's comments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:53AM (6 children)
At least ethanol makes me laugh once in a while :)
I dunno.... i haven't seen gold, but if you have-- i just believe he could do better. He used to make intelligent posts, but lately his comments are like his submissions: whiney, cry-ey and crap (like he's only a 13 year old) IMHO (like THIS):
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=23996&cid=635636 [soylentnews.org]
(kind of a little boy response)
I'd like to see better, i guess.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:25AM (5 children)
He's acting. Read his journal and you'll get some insight into just what kind of a mind we're dealing with here. He's sitting there laughing at the people who can't, or won't, see beyond what should be very, very obvious trolling.
The comparison with Eth, by the way, is *completely* off course. Eth was always just on the edge of sociopathy, but about the time der Gropenfuhrer got elected, something snapped inside him. He is, as I've said before, a jenkem merchant who made the classic amateur drug dealer's mistake, viz., getting high on his own supply.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:33AM
Speaks volumes about someone who find EF funny... I guess you have to be slightly racist to find his over-the-top racism funny. There are ridiculous accusations of racism these days, but generally people ignore such stupidity unless they fell personally attacked.
Time for some soul searching. 0.42% chance such statements are simply opposed to the ridiculous.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday February 11 2018, @08:09PM (3 children)
I know he's acting, but he's also easy to 'rile up', lol. It seems, if memory serves, that he knows some greek (if it was him posting about it), but his debate skills seem really low and he can't seem to 'argue' well.
I know his #freearistarchus thing is about, what, comic sarcasm? Something like an Andy Kaufman joke: look, poor me: i got beat up by a girl wrestler, you should feel sorry for me my neck may be broken....
I get it and feed it.
Look at the # of comments in the thread (last i looked it was at 210?), some of that was me feeding into his act: that said, i STILL believe it would have been even a poor journal entry, but WOW----SPLOSION!! :)
Ethanol..... oh, ethanol.... he seems to be acting as well, but it IS hard to tell sometimes, lol. But he's like Ari (and yourself and MYself): good characters in a good comedy. Sometimes you go out of character, sometimes you stay in but we all make life entertaining, lol.
Keep this under wraps or 'SPLOSION' it to others, i don't care: i just commented now to keep it more low key if you wanted to.
Yup: good characters in a good comedy. I'll be Maurice Moss.
'TNETENNBA' https://www.collinsdictionary.com/submission/4616/tnetennba [collinsdictionary.com]
;)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday February 11 2018, @10:39PM (2 children)
Ethanol is not acting and neither am I. I am as deadly serious as an Ebola outbreak. And Eth has disappeared up his own asshole; he started as one of those "ironic racists" and somewhere between now and about 18 months ago morphed into an actual bigot. He believes the shit he was spewing as (possibly) a joke.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday February 11 2018, @11:12PM (1 child)
Ah, i guess i just don't pay THAT much attention to him? (or, really, anyone here: i have too much of my own shit to worry about anyone else (my son, and now my wife having uterine cancer....waiting for her surgery is killing me. I hate waiting for stuff i have no control over...or waiting, i guess. I'm a pacer and all i can do right now is MENTALLY pace... it sucks).
I've learned to shrug off stupid people, i guess, because of my own shit going on i barely have time for.
I don't like the hate either, but i guess I always thought it was an ethanol act (my autism keeps me from reading people at the best of times).
I keep it straight (i think i am an alcoholic, but have been off it for a month now.... my wife DOES have cancer, my son IS moderately autistic), but i guess it's just a game for me: i can mess with Aristarchus because he seems to be playing a game. I mess with Ethanol because...same.
Sometimes i lose it and go off swearing and hating a bit but i try to keep it a game...... shit.... anyways, it's been nice talking with you. Back to work. :)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 12 2018, @03:18AM
I keep warning you about these people. It's right out of the neo-Nazi playbook to be "an ironic Nazi," right up until the point you actually aren't "being ironic" any longer. I think some people don't intend to make the change from "doing it for the lulz" to actually believing the shit they spew, but it happens anyway. Eth is beyond redemption (and not funny any longer, either). I used to be able to toss a +1 Funny his way now and then, but it's been at least a year and now every time he pops up he just sprays rotten bile everywhere he goes.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Troll) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:23AM (5 children)
Here ya go; more crap. THIS is what i'm talking about:
1. https://soylentnews.org/submit.pl?op=viewsub&subid=24698¬e=&title=%E2%80%9CI%E2%80%99m+blessing+and+victory+to+Shiva+for+Senate%2C+.+.+.++to+defeating+fake+Indian+Elizabeth+Warren%22 [soylentnews.org]
2. https://soylentnews.org/submit.pl?op=viewsub&subid=24711¬e=&title=Alt-right+killers [soylentnews.org]
3. https://soylentnews.org/submit.pl?op=viewsub&subid=24711¬e=&title=Alt-right+killers [soylentnews.org]
Can you REALLY tell me that this shite isn't anything but journal entries?
1. OMG! Really? This is crap. Outright crap from begining to end. It is the 'human centIpad' of submission. Not even a journal entry worth reading let alone a submission.
2. Lots of deaths in America: sigh. Not news and pretty bad tying 13 deaths to 'alt-right': why not a submission on how many deaths from eating McDonalds food? But no: ALT-RIGHT!! Sigh.
3. Oh Jeebus: someone is 'going after' someone else. Wow. BUT ALT-RIGHT!!1 OMG~!! ALT-RIGHT!! Can you really support this kind of submission? Really?
But no... he's submitted them and then he'll whine when they get rejected.
DON'T ENABLE DRUNKS, AND DON'T ENABLE ARISTARCHUS TO POST SHIT AND WHINE!
Come on: this is childish journal entry at best! Sheit.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:52AM (4 children)
(your 3rd is the same as the second)
Yes, mate, I can understand your editorial plight. However not all of ari's submission are crap - someone, cooler-headed, did see the value in this story and I'm grateful he did.
My take on the list after getting the "alt-right" obsession aside.
1. some tech poser poser is an idiot and has been trolled by a troll [youtube.com] turned white-pride [masslive.com] - probably journal, the most a "slow news weekend" entry after cutting out the alt-right twist. (it may turn later that someone try to fill the "power void" left after the "demise" of Milo; like this world needs more trolls)
2. Agreed - journal stuff. At most, material for countering "antifa is exactly like new nazis" - to my knowledge, so far antifa didn;t kill anybody.
Chill your head down, you'll die too early if you eat your liver for such trifles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:57AM (3 children)
Oh, no problem here :)
I just would like to see better: his best out of those 3 posts isn't good enough, i believe.
Wouldn't you like to see better?
I just don't know why he gets support for failing so hard. Don't enable.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:39AM (2 children)
There is no failure, this is news. I bet you wouldn't be posting such whining comments if the article was about California Democrats calling out Antifa and saying they are antithetical to a free society.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday February 11 2018, @09:44PM
The article could be about you getting a clue and I'd still call it out as a journal entry....but THAT doesn't seem to be the case.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday February 12 2018, @08:33PM
I don't see a whole lot of people who are on the right end of the spectrum submitting articles like that. I don't because if I had something like that to post I would keep it in a journal entry, Eth doesn't seem to submit a lot, Arcz doesn't seem to submit a lot, TMB does but all TMB wants is a fight. When you go to the politics nexus you see:
Guest column: Control - alt right - delete ~~~ Anti Alt Right rant
Fake News Sharing in US is a Right-Wing Thing, Says Oxford University Study ~~~ Anti Alt Right rant
Donald Trump Signs Executive Order to Keep Guantánamo Bay Open ~~~ Legit news
Dutch Agencies Provide Crucial Intel About Russia’s Interference In US Elections ~~~ Legit news
President Trump Backed Off from Ordering Special Counsel Mueller Fired ~~~ according to four people told of the matter
Alt-Right Neo-Nazis Are Targeting the Women's March ~~~ Anti Alt Right rant
The Supreme Court Will Rule on President Trump's Muslim Travel Ban ~~~ Legit news - "Muslim Travel Ban"
Breaking News: U.S. Government Shutdown Starting on January 20, 2018 ~~~ Legit news
Democrats Say They Have 50 Votes in Senate to Overrule Net Neutrality Repeal ~~~ Legit news
Nine Alt-Right or Trump related articles on the first page. Of those you had four that were actual news with an anti-republican/alt-right/trump lean to them, one with TRTD calling it a muslim ban but the summary was pretty fine, one that was the same tier of news that claims monthly sessions or tillerson is gonna be fired, and three that are straight up anti-alt-right rants. And look at that, none of them pro-trump or the alt-right or the republicans (not that there is anything wrong with that, we should be critical). This shows me that those on the right tend to still be skeptical of the government or just don't submit articles for what they agree with. I don't have time to look further back than that right now although I would like to...
I think what it comes down to is that I don't see the far left as "the other" yet some of those in the far left see me as "the other". When I see an Antifa type protesting or breaking something downtown, I don't think "wow I hate democrats" I think "that person is a loon". I don't feel it is necessary for those on the left to point out and apologize for anything that an Antifa person or anarchist might do because a person is their own keeper. The ones that appear to be batching everyone into one group seem on the left side of the spectrum saying that anyone who supports free speech, business, or the right to defend myself are Nazis.
If I woke up one morning and Trump was coming for people in the LGBT community I'd be joining a local militia to resist the federal government. Based on what I see here said by people like Ari or Deathmonkey it appears that if the shoe were on the other foot they would turn me without a second thought.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Friday February 09 2018, @04:36PM (38 children)
Looking from outside, I see common sense creeping in.
You do? I sure as hell don't. I see things getting more and more divided, and I don't think it's going to end well. This stuff in TFA is not representative of what I see in America overall politically. I see leftists working against free speech and liberals becoming die-hard corporatists, and people who used to be "conservative" going full Nazi, or believing in all kinds of crazy conspiracy theories. In public, people are fairly good still about keeping their opinions to themselves, but that's only going to last so long, as they show their true stripes online and at the voting booth. Honestly, I'll be surprised if the USA is still a single country in 25 years.
Guess who's winning from spectacular? Take a hint: it ain't the common person.
AFAICT, the "common person" is actually an extremist, they just keep their mouth shut at work about it for now. People are easily drawn to one "camp" or the other, and will easily accept whatever the leaders of that camp tell them. They do this in church, and they do it in politics, frequently with horrific results as Germany found out in the 1930s. It's really not that hard to lead people to do horrible things, once they're dissatisfied and angry.
(Score: 5, Informative) by NotSanguine on Friday February 09 2018, @06:30PM (36 children)
“All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing.” --Edmund Burke
So. Do you call out censorship, bigotry and divisiveness when you see and hear it?
Do you look for common ground with those who disagree with you in a particular area?
If not, you're part of the problem.
The way I see it is that we (and not just Americans) have much more in common than we do differences.
Except for tiny (relative to population) groups, people mostly want the same things: a decent way of life, relative safety for themselves and their loved ones, opportunities to succeed in their society, and the possibility of making a positive impact on the world.
Yes, there are different cultures and different belief systems. But that doesn't make those who think, live and believe differently than you do "the bad guys."
In fact, there are just a tiny number of hateful, disgusting scumbags who don't value life or liberty. They are loud though. And they redirect pain and anger about *real issues* (e.g., the hollowing of the middle class in the US, lack of jobs in arab societies, to name two, although those are essentially the same thing, just in different cultures and stages of (un)development) in support of their hateful agendas.
There are a larger group of opportunists who see their chance for power and influence by stoking those redirected emotions. But even those folks are still a pretty small group.
The vast majority of us just want a decent living, a comfortable place to live and the chance to be themselves.
Whether it be because they're too busy trying to put food on the table or trapped in restrictive environments or just plain sick of seeing a small group take the lions share from the fruits of their hard work, people hear these messages that are carefully constructed to say to them "it's *their* fault. We need to make them pay/go away/suffer/whatever. And the only way to do that is to remember that they are the enemy! They hate you. They hate the way you live. They think only of how to destroy you and all in which you believe!"
It's all a bunch of very old, not very subtle, but often quite effective rhetoric.
Given that decent and kind people are the vast majority, we need to stand up and say that we're not going to listen to these hateful scum and the opportunists who enable and amplify them.
I'm sure that there are many areas in which we disagree, Grishnakh. And I'm sure there are even more areas in which we share common interest and common cause.
So let's stop vilifying the ones who are just trying to have a decent life, and focus on the hatemongers, the opportunists and the sociopaths who see only a zero-sum game.
What say you? I say that Ben Franklin had it right:
If we do nothing, and allow those who would divide us to succeed, we're coiling our own nooses for them.
Respect our fellow humans. Speak out against bigotry and discrimination. Don't be hoodwinked by these hateful scum and recognize that we are all in this together.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday February 09 2018, @08:08PM (13 children)
The way I see it is that we (and not just Americans) have much more in common than we do differences.
Except for tiny (relative to population) groups, people mostly want the same things: a decent way of life, relative safety for themselves and their loved ones, opportunities to succeed in their society, and the possibility of making a positive impact on the world.
That's true about the commonalities, but the differences are enormous. Sure, almost everyone wants safety for themselves and their loved ones, but they DON'T want safety for other people, especially if those people have different beliefs. Plenty of people would be *happy* to round up people whose beliefs they consider "dangerous" or "heretical" and have them burned at the stake, or at least have them forced to follow strict religious laws and be treated different because of their differing beliefs. And what exactly is a "positive impact on the world"? For many Americans, that means establishing Christianity as the official religion and requiring church attendance, while simultaneously eliminating all environmental regulations because "God wouldn't let anything bad happen to us" and "the Rapture will be soon anyway". For other religious people, having a "positive impact" means establishing a theocracy of their choosing, beheading people who break religious laws, etc. For other people, having a "positive impact" means creating a strong, militaristic society that conquers other nations and maintains an empire (the Romans did this for over 1000 years, they certainly thought conquering the Germanic tribes was a "positive impact").
Yes, there are different cultures and different belief systems. But that doesn't make those who think, live and believe differently than you do "the bad guys."
Actually, yes, it does. When those people want to use violence to oppress you, then they are by definition "bad guys". As I've pointed out above, there's plenty of people who would be happy to do just that. There's plenty of societies in the world where this is the order of the day in fact: if you believe differently, you will be punished. In fact, it's pretty much impossible to not have some kind of oppression (or "oppression" if you will) in some way, for society to function. In a religious society, you can't tolerate unbelievers, so they have to be oppressed. In a traditional society, you can't tolerate women attempting to make themselves equal to men, so they must be oppressed. In a society that doesn't want too much pollution, you have to "oppress" the polluters. In a society that values clean streets, you have to "oppress" the litterers. In a society where people have to go to work regularly to make sure the machinery of society functions, people have to be punished somehow if they don't bother to do their jobs. You can't have absolute freedom; no society can function that way. Every society has laws which embody its values so that people can leave together peacefully.
If you're a Germanic tribesman and the Roman legionnaires want you to either submit to their rule or be slaughtered, you don't think those are "bad guys" in your view? Or, if you're a fundamentalist Mormon and the government wants to punish you for marrying and raping several pre-teen girls, you don't think you'd see them as "bad guys", and vice-versa?
In fact, there are just a tiny number of hateful, disgusting scumbags who don't value life or liberty.
This is demonstrably wrong. Just look at most Middle-Eastern societies, or any place where religion and government are intertwined and have popular support. Your ideas about life and liberty are really an American thing, and even in America lots of people don't really believe it, they only believe in "liberty" as long as it fits within certain bounds they're willing to put up with.
The vast majority of us just want a decent living, a comfortable place to live and the chance to be themselves.
No, the vast majority wants more than that. They want their religion to be acknowledged as supreme, they want their neighbors to fit within their idea of "normal", etc., and if they don't get enough of this, they rebel. Just look at the Trump movement; much of that was fueled by immigration fears. The same thing is happening in parts of Europe over immigration. And the middle east is a poster child for what happens when too many groups of people with ideological differences are stuck together.
Given that decent and kind people are the vast majority
No, they aren't. Those "decent" and "kind" people are only like that as long as you behave a certain way, or are not a threat to them. Move in around them, outnumber them, start pushing your own religion (or lack thereof), and pretty soon they'll be happy to get out the pitchforks and burn you alive. It's happened over and over in human history.
(Score: 4, Informative) by NotSanguine on Friday February 09 2018, @08:57PM (4 children)
Much of what you say about the middle east is more about this:
than it is about religion. when you have young people (men, especially) who are educated and want to work, have a family and prosper, but are stymied by a small elite who control most of the resources, it's no wonder they're mad. Even then, it's only a small proportion of *those* people who become violent.
What's more, you're way off base with the intolerance of these folks. For at least a millenia, non-muslims were accepted as part of muslim societies and those (as we might call them today) expats, were welcome in muslim countries and were not harassed or prevented from practicing their own religion as long as they paid the Jizya [wikipedia.org].
Interestingly, the anti-semitic and anti-western rhetoric we hear today in the middle east has its roots in European anti-semitic writings and culture. Funny that. I wonder why they're so anti-western? Perhaps because, after the Ottoman Empire collapsed after World War I, the west has meddled in their affars, placing ethnic minorities in charge (as the British did in Africa) of authoritarian regimes, picking winners and losers and interfering (as in the 1953 coup in Iran that deposed the *democratically* elected government and installed the Shah, supporting the Ba'athists in Iraq and Syria, and on and on and on) in the internal affairs of their nations.
Regardless, if you were to go to just about *any* country that's hostile to the US and/or the west and asked (not a westerner asking, but a fellow citizen) Joe Schmo on the street to list the things that are most important to him, you'd get a litany of issues, with "death to America" and/or "death to the infidels" way down on the list, if there at all.
So go ahead and delude yourself. Sure, there are dangerous assholes that *claim* to be muslim. There are dangerous assholes that claim to be Christians or Jews or even Buddhists (note the stuff going on in Burma/Myanmar) for that matter.
I'll say it one more time. If you're not a bigoted scumbag who sees *everyone* who isn't just like yourself as a mortal enemy and you don't stand up to such bigots, then you're part of the problem.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Friday February 09 2018, @09:13PM (2 children)
For at least a millenia, non-muslims were accepted as part of muslim societies and those (as we might call them today) expats, were welcome in muslim countries and were not harassed or prevented from practicing their own religion as long as they paid the Jizya.
Gee, how nice! We'll conquer your lands and then force you to pay an extra tax!
Would you be OK with having to pay an extra tax for not being a Christian (or not being the right kind) wherever you live? You don't consider that oppressive?
Perhaps because, after the Ottoman Empire collapsed after World War I, the west has meddled in their affars
But somehow it was OK for the Muslims to invade the Iberian peninsula and rule that for centuries? Sorry, I don't see how one group of imperialists are any worse than another group of imperialists.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Friday February 09 2018, @10:51PM (1 child)
Whoosh! way to miss the point, friend.
But whataboutism is so satisfying, isn't it?
With it you can justify just about anything, can't you?
Well, enjoy being part of the problem.
Despite the fact that we live in the most peaceful and prosperous time in the history of humanity, you and those like you have to have boogeymen and enemies to demonize, so you can assert "dominance" over them. Which is what that's really all about -- your own insecurity.
I pity you.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday February 10 2018, @08:26PM
Interesting how you can't actually counter any point I made, so I guess you don't have any valid argument left. I pity you.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday February 09 2018, @11:12PM
You apparently don't understand that jizya tax to which you refer. Paying the tax was never an option for a Hindu, an animist, or an atheist. It was ONLY an option for Christians, or for Jews - for "children of the book". Any and all non-Abrahamic religions had but two options: convert or die.
The "tax" wasn't a tax at all, but a tribute. Like any tribute between kingdoms, as long as the tribute rolled in, you were permitted to live, within severe constraints. Tribute, not tax. The day you fail to pay the tribute, you can expect to face an ultimatum - convert or die. Whether you pay tribute or not, you daughters can be taken, to be given to good Muslim men. Doesn't matter what the daughter says, a Muslim claims that she converted, then she converted, and trying to unconvert makes her apostate, and thus, guilty of a capital crime.
Let's not confuse a tax with tribute. People around the world are taxed, more or less fairly. But, even in terribly unfair tax structures, you and all of your neighbors share a similar burden. Not so with jizya - you paid a tax that few of your neighbors were burdened with. And, failing to pay that tribute would most likely cost your life.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @10:08PM (6 children)
Trump's approval numbers rarely reach 40 percent.
Mostly they're down around 33 percent.
In November 2016, 42 percent of registered voters chose None of the above (they stayed home).
That left Killery with 39 percent and Drumpf with 38 percent (and a smattering for write-ins/3rd parties).
The Big 2 managed to find THE 2 WORST CANDIDATES IN HISTORY.
So, NO. It's not the vast majority.
...and The Orange Clown doesn't have a large following.
His faithful followers are a minority of a minority.
(Registered Republicans are about 21 percent of eligible voters and lots of folks who voted for him have seen what he's doing and have turned their backs.)
.
Now, if The Fourth Estate would do its fucking job properly and INFORM USAians rather than go for cheap ratings, that would be a move in the right direction.
...but what we have instead is Lamestream Media, pre-filtering the news to suit their corporate paymasters/sponsors.
A return to The Fairness Doctrine would be apt.
(Reagan really fucked up this country.)
.
A plug here for the weekly Ralph Nader Radio Hour.
If you don't have a broadcast outlet near you, there's a gratis podcast (which has several minutes more of content).
With Ralph, you'll find stuff that you will never get via Lamestream Media.
Pacifica Radio and other independent media also have day-long content that is more informative than Lamestream Media.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Friday February 09 2018, @11:15PM (5 children)
Fuck Ralph Nader - but otherwise your post is pretty damned good. I hate wasting a mod point to bring you back out of oblivion, but some witless wonder decided to bury you with a down mod.
Why don't you register an account, and I won't have to waste time rescuing you from oblivion? Baahhhhh, forget I asked. You'll give me the same meaningless reasons you've given other people in the past.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @03:29AM (4 children)
Ralph has made your life better in dozens of ways and you aren't even grateful.
Been in a car wreck and not have your face or your passenger's smashed on the dashboard|windshield?
Thank Ralph.
Not been sickened|killed by tainted meat or water?
Thank Ralph.
Been bumped from an airline and not told "Screw you. You're on your own"?
Thank Ralph.
Been on a plane and not been choked to death by somebody else's smoke?
Thank Ralph.
Has Ralph Nader Made Your Life Better Today--or Even Saved Your Life? [googleusercontent.com] (Skip down toward the footnotes.) (orig) [blogspot.com]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:31AM (3 children)
Ralph, the crusader who single handedly rescued all of us victims from the worst of all possible worlds - yay Ralph. Forgive me if I can't give it any enthusiasm. It is at least partly Ralph's fault that we have warning labels that are ludicrous. "Don't put chainsaw near your throat, as injury or death may result."
You're giving your boy Ralph all the credit for fresh meat on store shelves, instead of old rotten meat? Like, no one else was able or willing to raise hell about rotten meat? Here, in the US, the most outrageous meat scandals were during the US Civil War. There have been other scandals since, of course, but none so very outrageous. That's because people before and after Ralphie's time have raised hell, and in some cases, caused heads to roll. Don't be giving Ralph all the credit.
Oh - your footnotes.
So, not the lone crusader after all. Just some guy who knew how to capitalize on his associations with people - we call that networking. A guy who could take center stage, and relegate his colleagues to obscurity. The poster boy who took all the credit for the poster maker's work. Got it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:57AM (2 children)
Somebody has to step up and be the first to insist on change.
In dozens of cases, when everyone else was saying "Let somebody else do it", it was Ralph that took the bull by the horns.
Ralph is also a masterful organizer.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:41AM (1 child)
But he's a leftist! A goddamn progressive!!!!!! Can you not see the truth???
(Score: 2, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 10 2018, @07:32AM
I have no idea how the hell Runaway manages to commit the genetic fallacy so often when he only has one helix and it's made of RNA. Surely he must be running out of nucleotides by now.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Troll) by VLM on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:09PM
Look for coincidences and ratios. Some groups can't get along with any other group, others live in peace. Take for example Jews vs Samoans. Now Samoans are about 1/10th the world population of Jews so terms like "Samoan Pogrom" or "Samoan Holocaust" should be about a tenth the Jewish equivalent, after all both races have lived with those horrible white males for a long time. In just ONE civilizations conflict during ONE war in ONE decade there were 24 nazi death camps for the Jews. Now Samoans being 1/10th the Jew population you'd assume over the entire history of mankind there numerically should have to be at least a tenth of the Jewish experience, or 2.4 Samoan Death Camps. Yet you look for them and find ... nothing?
The closest you can find is shitposting about how a fifth the population of Samoa died when New Zealand was running the place during the 1919 flu epidemic, whereas 9K New Zealanders died out of 1.4 million which is maybe 1%. The flu overall killed about 5% of the planet's human population but it varied by a factor of ten or so based on civil engineering infrastructure and medical treatment or lack thereof, and frankly probably a lot based on luck, so its hard to really claim NZ holocausted the Samoans in 1919 with a straight face. And that weak attempt is the best I can find. Its just so odd, for centuries about half of Europe (or the USA) had Samoa as a colony but they as a race never "earned" enough animosity for camps.
Its just odd the way some groups catch hell from multiple civilizations on multiple continents over multiple millennia, almost as if they have a subgroup behavior that doesn't play well with any others ever, whereas other groups live in peace, or even thrive, when rubbed up against the same supposedly evil civilizations. Just such a weird coincidence. And the people to blame for an entire species not getting along with one small group, is always some individual political opponent or trendy media approved two minutes hate victim, even though they can't get along with the entire world ever, never, historically.
I mean, isn't it historically relevant that "anti-semitism" seems to magically sprout up in every civilization they ever contact, but "anti-samoanism" isn't even a concept? I'm sure its all the white male right winger's fault, us 21st century moderns must have gone back in time to make the Egyptians, Romans, Palestinians,Industrial era Germans, frankly all of Europe multiple times in the middle ages, god only knows who else, pissed off at the Jews. Just one little modern political opponent did all that rabble rousing in the past. Huh.
I'm just saying, certain groups seem to bring on oppression by various means, and others don't, and local politics don't seem to matter much in the weight of history. As long as Jews act like Jews and Samoans act like Samoans, one of those groups is gonna end up in pogroms for all eternity across the entire planet regardless of small time local temporary politics.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by edIII on Friday February 09 2018, @08:15PM (21 children)
Philosophically I'm with you.... but the jaded cynicism I have, which was earned, tells me that Gaark is correct pragmatically.
I have seen people, just like he said, start to show their true colors. Some people around here, from even back in the other site, have definitely shown their true colors. I'm sure I'm lumped in with them too, because boy was I seething pissed and disillusioned with my country for the last two years in particular. Turns out this country really is racist as fuck. I say that, because a good amount of people around me have shown their racism on the surface now. In the last 6 months I've heard "Nigger" more than I've heard it in the last 20 (excluding black entertainment). It's concerning. People I deal with are either moving far to the Left, even though they don't know what it really is anymore, or becoming radicalized Alt-right types ready to fight for whiteness to survive. Yes, it sucks to be white some days, and yes, we do experience some racism against us. Saying that gets people to dismiss you right away, even though it's completely fucking true. Even with the white man being as demonized as he has been, I don't feel we are really under attack by anything but the rich and 1%. Our common enemy is the greed of the sociopathic few around us, that are multicolored and multiracial since they only care about the color Green. It does suck that I wear the skin of a demon to a great many people though.
If there is any hope in my left, I hope that we get your way and some common sense, decency, and empathy returns to the world. My life experiences though are screaming at me to continue my immigration towards a place in South America where I can bunker down. I've given up on America for quite some time now, which has helped me actually to deal with the pragmatic world that Gaark describes.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @09:47PM (17 children)
This country is also authoritarian as fuck, or at least accepting of authoritarianism. How many people vehemently oppose the NSA's mass surveillance, the TSA, the drug war, our 7+ unjustifiable foreign interventions, etc.? If anything, many support authoritarianism as long as it's done in the name of safety, indicating that they do not value liberty more than security. Yeah, 'the land of the free and the home of the brave'. Right. But other countries are worse, so ignore all this.
Merely using the word "nigger" is neither necessarily concerning nor indicative of racism; it depends entirely on the person's intent and the context. I've seen people say horribly racist things without ever using words like that. No word is inherently bad and no word is immune from the fact that language evolves, regardless of any history it may have.
So whether that trend is concerning depends entirely on how those people are using the word, which you didn't really elaborate on.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Friday February 09 2018, @11:23PM (16 children)
Think in smaller terms, than you have used above. Seat belt laws. Anti-smoking laws. Car seat laws. OSHA and MSHA regulations. Insurance company mandates or all sorts, that dictate how you will build your home if you want to insure it. The federal mandate that you WILL have health insurance, or be punished - financially or otherwise. We are surrounded by a myriad of authoritarian nonsense rules, regulations, and laws - but few can even recognize them.
Argue seat belt laws, and every brainwashed product of our school system will argue that you must be stupid to resist wearing a seat belt. Stupid or not - they don't understand what freedom is. They've bartered away freedom, for some fancied assurance that obedience will keep them safe. And, I thumb my nose at the whole broken system.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:10AM (5 children)
No shit society is authoritarian, otherwise we would not be calling it society really and anarchy would rule. Laws against murder? Authoritarian dickbags!!! *cough*
Seat belt and helmet laws? Yes they are authoritarian, same with laws against speeding and reckless driving. As a society we have to determine what measures we find reasonable, and you'll be hard pressed to find people who would be OK with repealing those laws. Since personal responsibility is probably a big thing for you maybe you should take a minute to consider all the emergency personnel who would have to clean up a lot more dead bodies and endure the emotional burden of knowing that many died because they chose not to wear a seatbelt / helmet. It wouldn't be only you that suffers for your stupid decision.
Again, as a society we choose the levels of authoritarianism and there is no such thing as zero of it, even in ancient times.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:13AM
There. FTFY.
(Score: 2, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:53AM (2 children)
And - some people around here dare to call ME "authoritarian". I'll bet you're a progressive, aren't you?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:50AM (1 child)
Wow, I try and point out reality and all you can do is cry "muh oppression". Pathetic. What you propose is anarchy, but I know that isn't what you actually want. I left the door open for "society must decide". Do you want murder to be legal? I'm not being hyperbolic here, there are simply some things we decide as a society are not OK and yes WE authoritatively apply these judgments.
As usual when you've got your panties in a twist you can't see reason. If I'm being callously honest I wouldn't terribly mind if seat belt and helmet laws were repealed, let the Darwin awards rid us of idiots. I'm not an EMT so the effect on me and my friends / family would be pretty much nothing. Then I second guess myself and realize that there are children of idiots like you who might not wear seatbelts cause they think they are fighting "the man" and flaunting their bravery in front of liberal sissies. I would worry for such kids, not old enough to realize their parents are morons. They might die before they can figure out their parents are idiots.
Would you ride a roller coaster with no safety restraints? Moron.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @11:04AM
I suppose that you ride roller coasters?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @09:15PM
Making it illegal to violate others' fundamental rights is not an example of authoritarianism. Try again.
Then I suggest you move to North Korea, because people like you are not the right fit for a country that's supposed to be 'the land of the free and the home of the brave'.
Or, more accurately, especially in ancient times.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:29AM (9 children)
Seat belt laws and building codes are not authoritarian oppressive overreach you complete fucking child. How dare you compare that to something like the NSA's surveillance? What the fuck is wrong with you?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:53AM
It is so strange to see Runaway occasionally show some common sense, then he devolves into lunacy like this. I honestly don't understand it.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @11:14AM (7 children)
In a police state, the police may stop you on any pretext, to examine you, and to incarcerate you, if they don't like what they see. In a non-police state, the cops keep away from you, unless they observe you committing a felony.
In most jurisdictions in the US, police presume to have some right to interfere with you, if they can't see your compliance with a seat belt law.
Again - you are the product of our progressive "education" system. The "educators" did well with you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:27PM
Nope I agree with your sentiment about police having too much power. I just don't agree that seatbelt laws are the smoking gun of a fascist / authoritarian gov.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 10 2018, @05:30PM (5 children)
Hey, dipshit, what you have a problem with is LEO overreach, not the actual seatbelt laws. Fucking SAY that instead of sounding like another one of those toothless sister-fuckers who goes "Ah shud be able t' stockpile grenades on muh own Got-dayum PROPPITY!' types. Precision is important. We are of a like mind on police overreach.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @09:20PM (4 children)
Call it overreach - fine. Fact is, it isn't just the police. It's your insurance company, and mine. It's the federal government, NPO's, state and local governments, and the education system. Hammer, hammer, hammer, on and on it goes, right on down to your own idiot neighbors who "think of the children" more than is healthy. "If you've done nothing wrong, why should you worry?" Well - people get shot to death during routine traffic stops that shouldn't even be, let alone routine.
The best policy would be to prevent police stops unless the cop witnessed a felony. Of course, if that were a policy, the gubbermint could create more felonies - such as possession of a gun, or possession of drugs or alcohol. Improper lane changes could become felonies, as well.
Remember that the executive only gets away with whatever the legislative and judicial allows them to get away with. If you representatives were as horrified of routine traffic stops as the average inner city poor black kid, then your representatives would be outlawing those traffic stops.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 10 2018, @10:36PM (3 children)
Finally you're starting to talk some sense.
Okay, so you've identified a major structural problem with the US government: executive overreach and, to at least some extent, capture of the legislative and judicial branches. Now...what do we do about this?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @11:18PM (2 children)
Vote every damned democrat and republican out of office, and send some fresh blood to Washington to clean the mess up. Clean up the Supreme Court, and TELL those 9 dumb bastards that the citizen takes priority over the state. And elect a responsible president to clean up the executive branch.
Sounds like some damned fantasy story, huh?
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday February 11 2018, @03:24AM (1 child)
Yeah, it does. Sounds, though, like if you wanted this, you ought to have voted Sanders in the '16 primary. Because he's the only one of them who's even close to "clean."
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday February 12 2018, @08:37PM
I voted for Paul. At the end of the day Sanders still sold out his morals by backing Hillary and giving her his money. Then got a sweet sweet vacation home and sports car out of it. Now there is the whole trial about his wife and him abusing his position to secure loans for her employer, it is of course all alleged but interesting. I work with a lot of Bernie guys who were completely devastated, and still are, that he turned on them.
If someone like Democrat Peter Defazio ran for executive office I might just support him as he seems to be an honest character. Although I am pretty libertarian, I have voted for him a number of times and will do so in the future.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:11AM (2 children)
One of the things I've learned is that there really aren't very many things in this world that are under an individual's control.
Among the things we *can* control are the things that we say and do.
If you truly want to see common sense, decency and empathy, then practice those things in your own life, and call out those who call for violence, intolerance and hatred.
Will the entire world change immediately once you do so? Of course not. There are, and always will be, hateful, violent, selfish and nasty people.
I'd note that things *are* getting better, despite what you've seen. We currently live in the most peaceful and prosperous era in human history. I, for one, would like to see that continue and expand.
As such, I try hard to treat others with respect and call out the vendors of hate and fear whenever I can. If I can be an example to just one or two other people, I've made a positive difference.
As my sister used to say, "Hurt people hurt people." I try to keep that in mind when dealing with those who are hurtful to others. Also, it's been my experience that those who don't respect others rarely respect themselves. Understanding that (leaving sociopaths out of it, they're a different story and a more difficult issue), I have sympathy for those who hate. I won't tolerate it around me, but I also won't respond in kind.
You may think I'm naive about the world, but I've had my share (perhaps even more than my share) of trauma, abuse and the vagaries of nasty, hateful people. I've seen plenty of crime (and in my younger days, even perpetrated some), desperation, hate and fear. But I've also seen how kind, decent and giving *most* people are.
I grew up and live in one of the biggest cities in the US, and learned, while still very young, to pay attention to those around me, because there are some who don't have good intentions and don't value human life at all. But those people are usually just desperate, angry and without hope. Thankfully, that isn't who I've become over the more than a half-century I've lived.
Those who peddle hatred, fear and division are much more dangerous and insidious and must be called out whenever and wherever they appear.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:58AM (1 child)
^ human society hasn't changed much beyond the technical innovations we've accomplished. Every time I think some new crazy shit is going on someone draws a parallel to a previous civilization.
Notsanguine is a better person than I. While I try to be decent and nice I do let my anger get the better of me. Freakonomics helped my worldview, the bit about the guy who made a business selling bagels to various businesses in high rises got me, 90% of people will be honest and about 10% will steal the bagel cause they can get away with it. The sad truth is we don't realize the sheer amount of decency going on around us because it is a non-issue when someone doesn't steal your shit. A hundred times a day you could be robbed, punched, yelled at, etc. yet most people decline to be such assholes.
yay humanity :D
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Saturday February 10 2018, @08:27AM
I think you're correct to a certain degree, but our culture and societies *have* changed over the millenia. We don't do a lot of human sacrifice these days, and civilized countries don't engage in capital punishment either. For an interesting look at some of the many factors associated with those changes, I recommend Steven Pinker's [wikipedia.org] The Better Angels of Our Nature [wikipedia.org].
That's very kind of you to say. I'm probably not any better than you, as I get angry sometimes too and can be unpleasant to say the least.
But I *try* to do my best. Which is all anyone can reasonably ask of themselves or anyone else.
Indeed.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by requerdanos on Friday February 09 2018, @07:18PM
I don't see common sense here either. Quite the opposite!
So he's a NAZI and a KKKer and whatnot.
The way to defeat the gentleman is not by attacking him, but rather by attacking his ideas: This is exactly right!
The "flaws" in his thinking are that he doesn't agree with the republican party platform: This is exactly wrong!
The Maine Republican party platform, just like Mr. K, should in many areas be defeated not in attacking them personally, but by attacking their ideas.
Just because he's a Nazi doesn't mean the Repubs (or any other Patriot Act, Spy On Our Citizens, NSA, Guantanamo-perpetuating party, such as for example Democrats) are by definition all that is good and right.
Benefit to "we the people," not to "So and so political party, inc." is the "good" here. If a party is working to preserve amendments 1 through 10 (the two in the example above are not), then it has a chance of not being "the problem." Until then, they and Mr. K are in a pot-kettle-blackcalling contest.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday February 09 2018, @04:29PM (26 children)
This is like a story of the pope becoming an atheist.
Or Jeff Sessions endorsing marijuana use while dancing in the streets wearing drag.
Or Trump saying something comprehensible, lucid, even insightful, not slurred, without racist, sexist or violent overtones.
It is absolutely newsworthy.
That is an every day thing which therefore makes it not newsworthy.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday February 09 2018, @05:08PM (24 children)
SOME people seeing things a certain way....common sense creeping in....
This is news?
So, SOME people seeing things in a different way....SOME people NOT using common sense is also news.
Spock says, "So yes, according to you, an everyday thing IS newsworthy. Fascinating!"
JOURNAL ENTRY!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Friday February 09 2018, @06:31PM (23 children)
Gaaaaark, stuff like this really doesn't belong in the comments. Perhaps you could write in your journal about how all aristarchus submissions belong in a journal, m'kay?
(Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Friday February 09 2018, @06:42PM (7 children)
I don't think I have ever seen a word you wrote that wasn't complaining that someone was picking on you, that is until you wrote the TFS, too bad you couldn't keep up that trend. I agree TFS falls short of the bar of being newsworthy.
(Score: 3, Informative) by aristarchus on Friday February 09 2018, @06:53PM (6 children)
Poor, poor aristarchus! First that whole being forgotten about the heliocentric thing, and now everyone picking on him on SoylentNews. I shed tears of infinite sadness, not for myself, but for humanity.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:32AM (5 children)
Most of them aren't worth the tears. I've had a harder time of it than NotSanguine and am, well, not as sanguine as he(?) is about people. I just want to be left alone, but it seems the way history is going, all of us with a speck of good left in us are going to be forced to fight.
So be it. People wonder why I'm such a persistent gadfly against the site's resident sociopaths, alt-liters, alt-righters, and actual goddamn Nazis? This is why. It's because it's one of the few ways I can fight, with what few resources I have.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday February 10 2018, @07:16AM (2 children)
c'mon, Hazuki-kun, you know that just wanting to be "left alone" is a libertarian fantasy. The point is, that as a race (humans, does not include "whities", who are a type of underwear, when they are tight) we are in fact dependent upon each other. And this is why a wrong done to one, is a wrong done to all. So, if someone discriminates on skin color, none of our skin colors are safe. Oh, I can here it now, the "Whitenesses" are getting their panties all in a bunch about how they are not allowed to be proud of being "White"! Well suck it, dudes, and yes, they are all dudes. I have submitted many submission that explored the connections between the alt-right and less than manly men that make up the Men's Rights A . . I forget what the "A" stands for, "assholes"? But still it is there. Because there is no such thing as "White". If I am "white" as a Greek, I will never agree with you, the Turk, who, you know, is also white, at least as compared to those hook-nosed semites, the Arabs. Whiteness is not a thing, it is only at thing developed against some other thing, like blackness, or Redness (Hi, TMB!), or Yellow Peril-ism.
NotSanguine has been doing an exemplary job as a Soylentil lately! I cannot praise him too highly! And he, and you Azuma, give me and all rational persons on the planet, hope for the future. Nazis, well, sooner of later, you know, they got to shoot themselves in the mouth, like the the Hitler did. Sooner, or later.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 10 2018, @07:30AM (1 child)
Small quarrel, it'd be Azuma-kun (to a manager or professor), or if you happen to be my girlfriend, Hazuki-chan.
I wish I had your optimism, but more and more, it seems to me the human race is doomed due to its own stupidity, solipsism, and selfishness. When they say those who forget history are condemned to repeat it, what they leave out is that those who DO remember it are condemned to be dragged kicking and screaming along, in the memorable words of a friend, like Hell's mosh pit as it all repeats.
Honestly, I want to just lay down and sleep and never, ever wake up. But that's not realistic. I have my duty. I must fight.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday February 10 2018, @08:18AM
謝罪いたします! But you should know, that fighting from a sense of duty, is always better than fighting out of a sense of fear. And these alt-right types, you can feel their fear.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @11:55PM (1 child)
You will become a right winger, yourself, soon. You are already sociopathic, you show alt-liter tendencies, and you could even be Nazi-fied, given time. Damned authoritarians - you're basically all alike.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday February 11 2018, @03:33AM
Was this misaimed, or are you actually this delusional?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @01:42AM
Write something decent and i'll comment decently, and probably surprise you with a mental 'high-five'!
Continue to write crap and i'll comment about it.
I call it as i see it. Crap is crap.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:33AM (13 children)
Yuuup. More intelligence from Aristarchus. Can't submit with intelligence, can't comment with intelligence. What are you: 13 years old?
"My dad could beat up YOUR dad."
yeah.
Man. up.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:35AM (12 children)
Gaaaark, go back to Florida Disneyland. I think you left part of your soul there, and most of your intellect. My grandma could beat up your arguments in this instance.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @07:32AM (11 children)
magister, you are loosing the plot here.
What plot, you ask? Well, note a thing or two from the Waldo County...
Sound somehow reasonable? There was a person that submitted it to S/N as worthy of notice, does it happen to know him?
If yo know him, maybe you'll ask if he picked this because he thought it was something right in there or was only meant as a vain "I-told-you-so victory dance"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday February 10 2018, @08:13AM (10 children)
As usual, c0lo, you are correct, which make you the magister, not me. But help me out: how does one offer a counter argument to a Gaaark? I already suggested that he put his objections in a journal, how much more helpful could I be? I begin to think it is a question of Branding. The ARISTARCHUS is already seen as the sworn enemy of, well, of those of very little political reasoning. Not that that is a bad thing. But still. How to get the Gaaark on the side of reason and justice? I am doing my best, inspite of the alt-right bias of the eds.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @10:02AM (4 children)
Gotta agree with the old fart here. I mean he can't be much more substantial than a fart by now, even Yoda couldn't break 1k.
I digress, at some point alt-righters figured out they could play on the liberal sensibility of tolerance and for a short time they thought they were making massive headway. They slipped a massive movement through this tolerant gateway and thought it was a failing of the liberal minded. They have now used up the tolerance and there is now very little compromise left to be had. Sometimes it is better to not take the high road and to yell right back in the face of bullies.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:44PM (2 children)
That headway? Rhetoric, populism and lies, planted in the fertile soil of "my ignorance is as good as your education, teach the controversy" led into it.
What to to? Apply common sense - those conservatives know "Stay neighborly by controlling your reaction. Seek out those with whom you disagree, try to understand them first, and politely offer your counter argument." It's a normal world, it used to be an everyday world before the spin-masters stepped into it and started to twist it into monstrous shapes to fit their interest. Can you fault them they want that world back?
And what the "old fart" does? Plays the "No, you go to journal; no, you; no, you first" game. Right, wise reaction.
What if the offer of counter-argument fails, you ask? Then, there's the other part of life that the "old fart" ignores - direct and shared experience. Not the words of philosophers of the old, no epistemology and metaphysics. Go live with them in their neighbourhood for 2 weeks and start something from the grass-roots.
For instance, if you are such an "internet-connected-world wizard", start a funding campaign for some $15k-$20k, convince the locals to volunteer for 2 weekends and, together with them and your 79-sexes troupe of die-hard liberals in all colors of the rainbow, plug the holes in some 3-4 miles of potholed [wgme.com] roads [mainecampus.com] in Maine [cartalk.com] - the ones that hurt the local economy [pressherald.com] (start with the East Waldo road [blogspot.com] for instance?). No, you don't repair the road (gets you to millions/mile), you just plug the holes.
What's gained from this? Shared experience, a road that won't damage their car for the next year, showing that action count more than hollow nazi slogans and empty local administration promises, empowers them to take the things that matter in their own hands.... shall I continue?
For God sake, even the anarchists can have more common sense than a 2k "old fart"? [reason.com]
Just what did you do with my fork, you dining philosopher?!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:33PM (1 child)
I can't quite tell from your response there, but it seems like you took my "old fart" joke rather personally. I was just teasing your chosen identity and the number of times you say you're thousands of years old. Stop obsessing about your fork, just make sure you've got your towel.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @10:44PM
No, nothing like that. My relation with the magister doesn't allow me to use "old fart" in any other sense than a friendly appellation.
Yours,
c0lo
---
about the way the philosophers use forks [wikipedia.org]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 11 2018, @12:01AM
Dafuq did you even say? "slipped a massive movement" - a big shit? "through this tolerant gateway" - progressive faggots? "failing of the liberal minded" - well of course. "used up the tolerance" - progressives are butt-hurt? "little compromise to be had" - no more reacharounds? "not take the high road" - Huh? You who live in the gutters have lower and higher roads?
Fucking progressives are more complex than we ever imagined! They have high roads!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @10:14AM (4 children)
First steps: Stay neighborly by controlling your reaction... Seek out those with whom you disagree, try to understand them first [soylentnews.org] (read the whole thread, understanding doesn't come as a revelation, you dig for it)
I doubt this is the image you project [soylentnews.org].
He may be wrong, of course, at least when comparing with your intentions.
But what if there something in your style that detours the audience on this wrong path? Something under your control which, once corrected, can lead to less lost audience (and we aren't talking here about "Let-us-keep-in-mind"-khallow)?
---
My opinions on your submissions in the queue, take them as another-non-Gaaark-perception-of-your-sunmission-effort:
* An idiot is trolled by a wannabe Milo [soylentnews.org] - search for details about Matt Colligan and you'll see he's a nobody in the alt-right, he's evolution shows he'd do anything for fame, even if the fame is dubious in nature.
* Some persons in alt-right are killers [soylentnews.org] - is badly missing context. Even the philosophers cast had moral lowlies [wikipedia.org].
More killers that the usual? Less than the usual? Is it serious or the same chance of being killed by a lightning? Where's the story? Who you are debating against? Was it somebody who said both sides are guilty? Then you can use this in that context. As it is. it's only a floating-in-nowhere piece of something.
* An aborted republican candidate, with alt-right habits threatens what-the-hell-is-that-acronym [soylentnews.org] - in terms of political impact, Paul Nehlen [wikipedia.org] is a nobody - 16% of the votes against Paul Ryan's 84%; even LePenn made more waves in France and I can't remember if we run stories about her.
He's trying again, with another one in the race [opslens.com].
Breitbart seems to have dumped him.
Nobody here knows about him a bit (I wasted 15 minutes to uncover what's all about)... and you want to give him visibility because of what?
He's suing ADL? It's not like ADL is sued for the first time, and not always they were kosher [latimes.com]
---
I told you some times back to go for the relevant sources [soylentnews.org].
I'm suggesting you now to:
- choose relevant stories, those that can have impact somehow (yeah, right, who would have believed that one of many ruffles group like ISIS will cause so many "stories"). They need to be stories, not a-portait-of-a-lowly-nazi-under-a-fluorescent-lamp-as-seen-by-aristarchus. Abstain if there's no story.
- contextualize the story, not from what you believe is true (the truth of whom, magister?), but with relation to reality ("Links. Do you speak them?"). Sorry to inflict this complicated world we live in, I can't keep it all in my mind; and nazis are a very small part of it, no matter how much you "love" them; don't blame me if I forget who-the-fuck-is-the-small-fry-Matt-Colligan
Perhaps conducting a research of "who's who in the alt-right" will help you selecting what's important?
In doing so, you may find some sources that "tell it straight as it is", without the interpretation of media? Not like them are so subtle and refined people.
How's that homework for some journal-ing?
(I hope you don't think a crusade is something you can conduct in your spare time. Know thy enemy and all that)
That bias... it isn't actually that big.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @11:24AM (3 children)
See... he's not very good, is he. At writing OR trolling. He doesn't know how to get his own point across.
Someone else said he's acting....if so, he's the Justin Bieber of acting: he just sucks.
He just goes: alt-right, rejection, waaaah. Then when someone calls him on his sucking he says:
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=23996&page=1&cid=635897#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
Yeah...he's a smart one. He's got the intellect of a 13 year old.
Hey, sorry. I'll stop now. YOU I can have a conversation with, because you have intellect; Ari, though, has none and I don't want to talk about him anymore.
Hope to keep seeing you around, c0lo. It was fun. Have a nice day (I, though, gotta work, lol).
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:54PM (2 children)
Ok, kiddie. Watch your language and be respectful to 2k old farts, not much necessary but still a bit; you'll find that the discussion can flow easier and more meaningful.
No seriously, do offer respect. Don't listen to those who tell you "Respect is earned", it's just a justification for their default dismissive position towards you. It's a dog-eat-dog-world thingy, civilized societies don't use it.
Same to you, have a good day at work and have fun after.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 11 2018, @12:13AM (1 child)
I think maybe you take a good idea to far. Every human being that you ever meet should be respected, at some base level. That person's words and actions can build that respect up, or tear it down. After a period of interaction, each person's level of respect is, indeed, "earned".
Some of the people who have passed through my life are worthy only of contempt. Others are worthy of my deepest respect. Most, however, maintain a level of respect near that base level.
What is base level, anyway? Well - you need a drink, and I have a drink to spare, you're welcome to it. Or, you need a drink, but I don't have one, I'll make at least minimal effort to get a drink for you. Oh - I have a dollar in my pocket, and there's a vending machine down the hall? No problem, I'll get you a drink. Huh? You insist on an alcoholic beverage? Whoops - you just ate a big chunk out of that base respect thing.
Respect goes up and down, and it is indeed earned, in the final analysis.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Sunday February 11 2018, @12:51AM
Respect is an investment. Which sometime may not pay off.
Contempt is another type of investment, it requires emotional resources (to demonstrate: think of a situation where you would need to spend a whole evening with people you have only contempt for. Or being a life partner for years with a person for whom you feel only contempt).
I usually stop at indifference when the respect is gone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday February 09 2018, @11:35PM
I suppose you already know that you have a warped mind. No point in me telling you what you already know. But, this article should amuse you - at least a little. https://thebutterflyreport.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/disgraced-atty-general-jeff-sessions-caught-shop-lifting-in-drag/ [wordpress.com]
I'm having a hard time deciding, is that fake news? Can't find the story on Fox or MSNBC, so it may not be real news, right?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by KiloByte on Friday February 09 2018, @01:02PM (50 children)
This is all fine and dandy, but these guys are making a crucial mistake: they assume the bigots are thinking rationally. They are not: stuff like 53 genders, wage gap myths, considering Islamists allies (despite this love being pretty obviously unrequited), etc are not the hallmarks of thinking.
Also, no matter how many times you denounce alt-right, the bigots keep saying you've not denounced them and that you're a Nazi yourself.
Thus, I'm afraid trying to reason with SJWs is a lost cause — all you can do is to treat all racists equally, ridicule them. Even pointing facts doesn't work — quoting government statistics is considered "hate speech". So is quoting statistics gathered by your own company, or from any other reliable source. To SJWs, a fact that disproves their religion is "fake".
Heck, even alt-right "the joos are orchestrating white genocide" vs SJW "the Israelis are genociding poor innocent muslims" sounds so alike.
Ceterum censeo systemd esse delendam.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @01:16PM (1 child)
The only thing that will solve this is a bullet to the head.
(Score: 2) by unauthorized on Friday February 09 2018, @01:41PM
I mean, if it's coming from the alt right, I think we'll be having Free helicopter rides [knowyourmeme.com] instead!
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday February 09 2018, @01:50PM (14 children)
Taking a risk? Maaaybe, except that I can't understand what you'd risk.
Crucial mistake? Come on, mate! Really? What's the worst that can happen?
Are you "of the brave with brown pants"? Can't you see what the "be affraid, be very afraid" politics brought you since 9/11?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Insightful) by KiloByte on Friday February 09 2018, @02:22PM (13 children)
What risk, what fear? I don't get what you're talking about.
What I meant is that discussing with a true believer is futile — ie, a waste of your time. No matter how well you'd research your arguments, such a person will dismiss whatever you say, then pelt you with whatever insults their group has for their assumed enemies (whether you belong to those or not).
It doesn't matter which dogma, they're pretty much interchangeable. Let's take Antifa for example: an angry mob with black red and white flags, raised fists — does this evoke any similarities?
Ceterum censeo systemd esse delendam.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday February 09 2018, @02:55PM
Then neither do I get what so "crucial" and what is the mistake?
What do they stand to so crucially lose?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Friday February 09 2018, @04:30PM (9 children)
> No matter how well you'd research your arguments, such a person will dismiss whatever you say
I learned that years ago when I tried to reason with a creationist. The whole debate was a red herring. The guy was really rejecting science and rationality, not just evolution. He was happy to profess acceptance of science that said things he liked, but when it was conclusions he didn't like then it was all "there's no proof", and how do we know anything is real or know anything at all, it was impossible to discover anything about conditions over a million years ago because time and entropy destroy all evidence, etc.
If you care to learn more about it, I found The Authoritarians ( http://theauthoritarians.org [theauthoritarians.org] ) illuminating. It's tempting to believe all our problems would be solved if only we could send all those kinds of people away, like with the B-ark, but even if that was possible, I wonder if another two generations would replenish their numbers, putting us all right back at square one on that problem. Further, such a move is the very diversity reducing kind of thing they are eager to employ in the mistaken belief it would solve their problems. Reducing diversity is usually a bad idea, makes groups more susceptible to groupthink, even if those kicked out are the ones most prone to groupthink.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Friday February 09 2018, @04:49PM (8 children)
I learned that years ago when I tried to reason with a creationist. The whole debate was a red herring. The guy was really rejecting science and rationality, not just evolution.
Yep. Remember when Bill Nye the Science Guy tried debating Ken Ham? Who "won"? It depended on which news source you read: if you read something religiously biased, then Ham won, if you read something biased towards secularism, then Nye won. For fundamentalists, Ham "obviously" won simply by rejecting Nye's arguments by just pointing to the Bible as "proof", case closed. For secularists, Nye "obviously" won by ignoring the Bible as some kind of scientific authority and looking at real evidence, but for religious people that approach is useless, because they don't believe in evidence, only their holy book. The debate was a waste of time and didn't convince anyone. Debating a Creationist is a useless endeavor; it's better to just dismiss them out-of-hand as loons. Remember, these are the same people who really believe that there's angels and demons among us, that the world is going to end any day now with the "Rapture", etc. You can't reason with them, so it's useless to try.
It's tempting to believe all our problems would be solved if only we could send all those kinds of people away, like with the B-ark, but even if that was possible, I wonder if another two generations would replenish their numbers,
No, that wouldn't happen. If you sent all those kinds of people away, the US would have a fraction of its present population, and that fraction isn't reproducing much, so the population would simply go down from that point, not up.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Friday February 09 2018, @05:16PM (3 children)
Why do people feel the need to declare a "winner" of a debate? You're supposed to be listening to both sides so that you learn something. Not everything is a damn competition where we need to crown a victor.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday February 09 2018, @05:34PM
I've never heard of a debate where there wasn't a declared winner. That's precisely the way collegiate debates work: two teams debate according to a specific format, and one is declared the winner.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @09:11PM
You win this thread!
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @10:30PM
Why do people feel the need to declare a "winner" of a debate?
Without that, you just have an argument.
You can do that without leaving your own neighborhood.
The Oxford Union (a noted debate venue) does this by having the audience exit through 1 of 2 labeled doors. [google.com]
In doing so, they cast a vote for the most convincing side in the debate.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @06:37PM
Just so. As Peter Medawar pointed out:
(Score: 0, Troll) by jmorris on Friday February 09 2018, @09:13PM (2 children)
And who will ask the better question about Bill Nye debating science or philosophy? Why is he considered an authority on either subject? It is about as sensible as listening to Captain Kangaroo pontificate on the details of modern seamanship. Which points to the core flaw here, the left itself is anti-science and anti-reason, but as usual, projecting their sins onto their political opponents. Nye played a character on a children's TV show long ago, a show scripted by other people. He is not a philosopher by training, profession or otherwise. He is not a scientist by training or profession. He holds a degree in Mechanical Engineering but apparently didn't like the work and went into comedy and then children's TV.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 10 2018, @06:34AM
Yeah? And compared to Ken Ham he's Willard V. O. Quine. Cry harder, you disingenuous sack of shit.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @10:05AM
Here we see an alt-righter religious nut triggered by a douchey scientist. If you just didn't like Nye then fine, but anti-science and reason? Either you are starting to lose it in the face of your hero falling further and further, or you truly are just a shill and you took your roll a little too far into troll territory.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by fritsd on Friday February 09 2018, @04:53PM
I agree with you, when you're describing a stereotypical true believer.
However, when you speak to a Real Person(TM), you can't always know beforehand if they are capable of listening to you, or not. And then it would be a pity if you just don't bother because "they're probably just another true believer".
( Personally I have very little patience with people whom I suspect I couldn't reason with, so this is a case of "do as I say" not "do as I do" :-/ )
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:29AM
That part is obvious. It should be a hint for you.
(Score: 3, Informative) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Friday February 09 2018, @02:23PM (10 children)
While I'm not in the least surprised to see this thread degenerate into frothing alt-right gibberish, I have to say didn't expect it to happen this quickly. You really hit the ground running there KB.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Friday February 09 2018, @05:14PM (9 children)
This whole article post is a troll. Aristarchus stirring up more shit with his gleeful, sarcastic wankery.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 3, Informative) by NotSanguine on Friday February 09 2018, @06:47PM (1 child)
Perhaps Aristarchus is trolling.
However, the idea that we have much more in common than we have differences is obvious to anyone who actually interacts with other humans.
We may disagree on the mechanisms for making our world a better place, but the vast majority of us believe in tolerance and liberty.
Calling those who don't share your particular policy prescriptions "enemies who want to destroy our country" isn't helpful. There's a reason that politics used to be referred to as "the art of the possible," in that discussion, compromise and good faith efforts to make the world a better place used to trump (no pun intended) vilification and division.
No. We don't always agree. But we have (and can, once again) all worked together, often contentiously, to do positive things. As the old saw goes, you know a compromise is a good one when *no one* is happy.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @10:42PM
that we have much more in common than we have differences is obvious
Ralph Nader wrote a book about that.[1] [google.com]
N.B. He sponsored an event where he (a long-time Progressive) shared the dais with Grover Norquist (a Reactionary Libertarian).
[1] I don't agree with his use of the terms "Left" and "Right" but, once you get past that, he has a point.
(The same one you made.)
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Friday February 09 2018, @07:36PM (6 children)
Pointing out that some conservatives do not want to follow the GOP when it gets captured by the extreme right is important.
When you only have two parties, and one is going nuts (following a giant economic crisis), it's a threat to the system. Having people who traditionally associated with that party who dare to voice the reality of the extremist slide in their own conservative words is critical.
The top guys call anyone opposing their words/actions a crazy leftist loony commie traitor Dem. When enough indisputably conservative voters start going "Dude, not in my name" is when the extremists can start losing, and all of us can try to get back the system as it was designed to work.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @10:53PM
USA has only 1 party: The Corporate Party.
The claim of 2 parties is actually 2 factions of the same party: The Neoliberal wing and the Reactionary wing.
Both have sold their souls to the highest bidder.
One wing advocates for "intellectual property" maximalists and the other advocates for Dirty Energy.
USA needs a constitutional amendment that will make all election campaigns publicly funded.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:00AM (4 children)
Yeah - what the cowardly owner says. If we have two parties, and you only believe that ONE of them has gone off the deep end - you are most likely part of the problem. Have you not noticed that Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump have worked equally hard to impoverish the American people, to put them under 24/7 surveillance, divide and conquer? Divisiveness is the order of the day, and it has been longer than many voters have been alive.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @03:49AM
Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump have worked equally hard to [keep the usual bunch in complete control]
The brilliant take-no-prisoners comedian Bill Hicks[1] had a routine where he postulated that the 1st thing that happens with a new president is that the CIA gives him a private screening of a video of the JFK assassination, taken from a different vantage point than the Zapruder film.
[1] Bill was so edgy that one of his appearances on Letterman was completely edited out. [google.com]
Bill died of pancreatic cancer at age 32, after which Letterman apologized to Bill's mom and aired the censored act.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:40AM (2 children)
Yes, and still people think they have a choice when election time comes.
"Let's see: i vote for 'fuck me up the arse' or 'kick me in the head'... hmmm.... i..pick.........ummmm......"
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @04:49AM (1 child)
The trick with those choices is, after four years of being butt-fucked, we tend to forget how bad it was being kicked in the head. So, we vote to be kicked in the head for four or eight years, during which we forget how bad it was being anally raped, so we then elect a rapist.
This election cycle, we opted for the head kicker, and put the rapist on the back burner.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @10:47AM
I think you might have those metaphors backwards... Much more fitting to the personalities.
Oh right, I forgot, Hillary groped you. Jackass.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday February 09 2018, @04:37PM (2 children)
Last I heard it was 87 (or 89?) genders. Try to keep up.
Because you are not the only one confused; because this will require federal forms, and therefore software vendors to keep up with all of the new federally recognized gender codes, I propose the following.
Create a new Federal Department of Gender with an adequate budget. It will maintain and publish the updated list of federally recognized genders. Other federal agencies, and the public then have an official source for what the latest federally recognized gender codes will be, and when those updates will take effect. Software vendors will be able to update their software. Federal agencies, for example the IRS, will be able to update their forms. It will prevent chaos. An excellent use of your tax dollars.
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(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday February 09 2018, @04:55PM (1 child)
I urge you to write your congressman/woman/${gender-code-here} to support this proposal.
As a practical example of the benefit that the federal department of gender would provide, the department would be able to classify which groups of genders can be consolidated into a single restroom. In addition to the publication of the frequently updated gender codes, the department would also publish a list of restroom names into each of which various groupings of genders can use. Such consolidation of restrooms would result fewer restrooms being built. The savings from not over-building restrooms would be enormous.
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(Score: 3, Touché) by DannyB on Friday February 09 2018, @05:01PM
Given such a modest proposal, how can one say that SJWs can't be reasoned with?
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(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Friday February 09 2018, @04:41PM (9 children)
The many genders thing is a bit exaggerated, but rooted in truth: There are more than 2 genders. There are even more than 2 biological sexes, and that bit is proven science - all you need is an extra chromosome or two to get some odd combinations.
As far as the wage gap myths, what exactly is the myth? In most professions, women get paid less then men, black people get paid less than white people, and those kinds of things are well-documented. What's even more well-documented is that a profession that is on the whole done by women and/or non-white people tends to be lower-paid and less respected than professions done by white men, even at similar skill levels: For instance, welders tend to earn more than child care workers, even though a typical person in both of those professions has a high school diploma and a year or two of post-high school training. Engineers earn more than social workers, even though both of those generally require a masters' degree. Even within the same profession, there are substantial pay gaps: For instance, the heavily female medical specialty of pediatrics gets about half the pay of the heavily male medical specialty of radiology, even though they have similar levels of qualifications.
As for Islamists, are you referring to all Muslims as "Islamists", or are you referring to people who want Islam to be the source of the law of their various countries? Those are very different things. For instance, ISIS is absolutely trying to impose what they see as religious law on the (rapidly shrinking) territory it controls. However, most of the people who've been fighting and dying to take out ISIS are Muslims. So yeah, I'd see those folks trying to take out ISIS as at least temporary friends, even if they aren't allies.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday February 09 2018, @04:53PM
But that's not what we're talking about. The fact that certain forms of chromosomal trouble aren't always lethal, doesn't tell us much about how we should think about gender in society.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday February 09 2018, @05:18PM (1 child)
The many genders thing is a bit exaggerated, but rooted in truth: There are more than 2 genders. There are even more than 2 biological sexes, and that bit is proven science - all you need is an extra chromosome or two to get some odd combinations.
It seems this could very easily be dealt with on government forms and the like, by having 3 options: male, female, and other. Maybe we should try to get to a state where someone's gender just isn't that important.
As far as the wage gap myths, what exactly is the myth? In most professions, women get paid less then men, black people get paid less than white people, and those kinds of things are well-documented.
I don't think it's well-documented at all that women or blacks get paid less than white men *for the exact same job*. It's absolutely true that these groups get paid less, on average, but these groups also do different jobs. There aren't many female (or black) software engineers, and there aren't many male day-care workers or preschool teachers. You can debate the reasons for these discrepancies and what should be done to address them, but let's compare apples to apples.
For instance, welders tend to earn more than child care workers, even though a typical person in both of those professions has a high school diploma and a year or two of post-high school training.
Yes, but welding is a much, much, much more dangerous job (underwater welding in particular), and it's a dirty, nasty job in many places. Working with children can be a PITA, but it doesn't involve inhaling noxious fumes and having hot welding slag spray in your face, nor does it involve having to enter dangerous confined spaces where it's quite possible to pass out and die from lack of oxygen. Welding is also very skill- and talen-based: some people can do it much better than others, and welders doing particularly difficult types of welding make a lot of money because only a few people can do it, and it can't be done easily by robot. Finally, the pay difference is a function of the market: the market can only support so much pay for child care workers; if you raise their pay a lot, then the price of child care will be much higher, and very few parents will be able to afford it; already, many parents choose to simply have one parent quit their job, rather than pay for child care, because they make about as much with their job as the child care would cost. Double that cost and now there won't be many parents making use of child care services.
Engineers earn more than social workers, even though both of those generally require a masters' degree.
First, most engineers I've met do not have a master's degree, and I certainly haven't seen that many engineering jobs that require one. It's a bonus early in your career and gets you more pay at first, but after some point work experience counts more. Engineers with MSs tend to be more specialized as well.
But aside from that, again, this is a function of the market. Engineers work in companies where products are created and revenue generated. An engineer working for Apple helps them create the iPhone, which sells for a small fortune making Apple the wealthiest company in the world, so that engineer is able to command a high salary. How much money do social workers generate? None; they're actually a cost on society. You can argue that they help society save money by not sending so many people to prison, or helping kids grow up to be more productive, but that stuff is really hard to quantify, and as government workers, they generally aren't paid well just like all government workers (including engineers).
Even within the same profession, there are substantial pay gaps: For instance, the heavily female medical specialty of pediatrics gets about half the pay of the heavily male medical specialty of radiology, even though they have similar levels of qualifications.
Two things: why don't more women go into radiology then, if it pays more? And second, from what I'm hearing and seeing, this is changing, because a lot of radiology is being outsourced offshore (you don't have to be on-site to read an X-ray), , the pay is falling. But back to the first point: a lot of this looks simply like women are voluntarily choosing lower-paying professions, knowing full well that they pay less. Whose fault is that? There's a bunch of jobs I'd probably rather do than engineering, where I would have less stress and more fun, but I don't do that because they don't pay much and I don't want to live in a small apartment with roommates for the rest of my life. Obviously, women overall are choosing to de-prioritize salary, in favor of job satisfaction. You can't do that and then rightfully complain about being paid less.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday February 09 2018, @10:51PM
One reason NOT to become a welder, is eyesight. Many welders begin losing their vision early in their careers, many more later in their careers. The care that they put into maintaining their eye sight is important, but welding damages your eyes no matter how careful you are. Over time, even a careful welder can be blinded by the work he does. The worst welding job to have, is inside of a fabrication shop, where you are surrounded by other welders. There is no angle at which you can escape being arc-blinded by your coworkers. Yours truly had the opportunity to go into welding, but since he was starting out with poor vision, he decided that such a career choice would be pretty stupid.
That doesn't even begin to consider more immediate risks, like electrocution, or a failed weld endangering your life, or the cranes and other equipment routinely operating around you, all while you're closed off from the world under your welding hood.
When day care workers have to deal with going blind from looking at all the funny looking kids they care for, then we can compare day care workers to welders.
(Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Friday February 09 2018, @05:50PM (2 children)
I am all for acknowledging that gender is a cultural artifact, but do me the same kindness and don't try to slip in Klinefelter as a way of trying to make gender politics appear scientific.
H.Sapiens has exactly two sexes, and as many genders as we decide we have. That decision on genders is entirely cultural, perhaps in some groups there are 53 genders, and there are trivial examples available of cultures with more than two. But don't insult science by conflating gender politics with biological sex.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @11:35PM (1 child)
Anyone who has studied human genealogy even a little bit disagrees. [wikipedia.org]
You remind me of the old saying "His mind is so narrow that he can look through a keyhole with both eyes at the same time."
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:07AM
Ho-hum. Your reference is pretty meaningless, in reply to GP's post. We still have only two sexes. The normies are normal, and the little rounding errors are abnormal. Failed genetics - it happens. Speaking of old sayings - your mind is so open, it all fell out!
(Score: 2, Troll) by DeathMonkey on Friday February 09 2018, @05:53PM (1 child)
As you noted the worst that can be said of the "SJWs" is they're interpreting reality in a way the GP disagrees with.
Meanwhile, the Alt-Right is out murdering people in the streets. [splcenter.org]
But yeah....totally the same...
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:08AM
Killing people in the streets? They should have started inside the SPLC.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Friday February 09 2018, @06:15PM
It's a myth that women are paid less than men for the same work. Not in any western society at least. It's contrary to both facts and reason but it's an article of faith for many nonetheless.
The reality is in aggregate, women tend to choose to work in fields where pay is lower, they take more time off, work less overtime, and consequently earn less money. Men, again in aggregate, tend to choose fields with higher pay and correspondingly greater demands, work longer hours, take less time off, and earn more money. They are also much more likely to die shortly before or after retirement, of course. A reasonable case can be made that the women are getting the better end of that stick, but even that is really missing the point.
If you could really hire women to do the same job for significantly less than men, no one would ever hire a man for that job. Think!
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by meustrus on Friday February 09 2018, @05:05PM (8 children)
These kind of comments seem to be increasingly common around here, and while most Soylentils at least seem to be intelligent enough to ignore the straw man, there is one deeply concerning idea here that I believe meeds to be addressed before it infects the baseline of our discussion.
Muslims in America are some of the most moderate Muslims in the entire world. There are entire communities of people that have been living here peacefully for decades, slowly reconciling the origins of their faith with American secularism. As a result, the American brand of Islam is not just moderate and peaceful; it is coherent, consistent, and most of all, ready to be exported to the rest of the world.
Meanwhile, Muslims in the middle east are still fighting serious ideological battles. Sometimes through violence, sometimes through political oppression. Amid this conflict, extremist groups have devised interpretations of Islam that justify increasing violence and political oppression.
These violent and oppressive interpretations are beginning to leak into America, sure. But their #1 opponent is the family members and faith leaders who can provide community and identity within the American theology that is more compatible with secularism. And not only do these faith leaders seek to spread their moderate and peaceful theology to Americans at risk of falling for more violent and oppressive interpretations, but they seek to spread their secular American theology to the rest of the world. If they were empowered rather than marginalized, their moderate and peaceful interpretations could leak back into the middle east, directly combating extremism at its source.
Unfortunately, kneejerk reactions to Islam like yours seriously threaten this opposition to extremism. When we lump American Muslim institutions together with the extremists that threaten us and them, we seriously impede their ability to oppose extremism among their children. When we make going to mosque dangerous, we make it less likely that Muslims will get their information from other Americans and more likely that they get their information from ISIS recruiters on social media.
So please cut it out. Stop trying to destroy American Islam, because it is our best hope of combating extremism.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 4, Informative) by tangomargarine on Friday February 09 2018, @05:12PM (1 child)
He clearly used the term Islamists and now you're whining he's anti-Muslim. Who's the real strawman here?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @06:37PM
Sure bud, cause the average conservative around here bothers with that distinction /s
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Friday February 09 2018, @05:21PM (1 child)
So we need to work to support one delusion over another delusion, because it's not as bad? How about not supporting and coddling any delusional beliefs? We have enough delusional people in this country with the wacky Christians of all stripes, and various other religious nuts. How about this idea: let's push rationality instead of religion.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2018, @08:15PM
No one is pushing religion here.
What IS being pushed is tolerance and understanding, not conversion. I would love it if religions went away and we got rationality and philosophy instead, but don't kid yourself.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:13AM (3 children)
Muslims in America are no different from Muslims anywhere. When they are less than 1% of the population, they keep a low profile, and conform. When they make up more than 5% of the population, they start getting noisy, and demanding special rights and considerations. At 10%, they get noisier still. Have you bothered to look at Europe? The denser the Muslim population, the more trouble they cause.
Islam doesn't play well with other socio-economic-political forms.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:32AM (1 child)
Runaway's channeling Pam Geller again! Can someone bring his meds? Or at least turn off the Faux Noise!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 10 2018, @12:51AM
Where did Pam Geller grow up?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 12 2018, @07:08PM
That's because denser Muslim population means a denser immigrant population as well. Europe does not have a long tradition of assimilating immigrant groups - look at the Romani people for one huge example of Europe perpetuating huge problems due to cultural differences.