from the civilized-countries-don't-hold-elections-on-tuesdays dept.
The Center for American Progress reports
Patagonia will continue its record of encouraging its workers and customers to be politically engaged by closing its doors on Election Day 2018, the Washington Post reports.
Citing low voter participation and its own history of advancing environmental causes, the outdoor retailer decided giving its workers a chance to vote was the right thing to do. Company spokeswoman Corley Kenna told the Post, "What's the most impactful thing we can do in an election? That's to get people to vote."
This isn't the first time the outdoor retailer has made Election Day a holiday for its workers. The company also closed its doors on Election Day 2016 as part of its "Vote Our Planet" campaign. Patagonia again cited low voter turnout across the country as the basis for its decision and said that "America needs strong leadership to confront the fundamental threat of climate change."
[...] During the 2016 election, it hosted political events in its own stores, inviting customers to talk environmentalism and the role of politics in keeping the planet healthy.
Patagonia also used the opportunity to help customers register to vote. Its "Vote Our Planet" campaign was aimed at turning out environmentally conscious voters in races at every level of government.
(Score: -1, Troll) by jmorris on Tuesday July 10 2018, @05:53PM (22 children)
So a SJW converged company is doing more SJW shit in an attempt to purge its customer lists of any who dissent from the Progressive agenda. Good. As we divide into two warring camps it is good for people to see clearly who is on which side. And almost all of Corporate America is now converged to Social Justice so we will see the rise of a large number of new corporations to service the half plus of the country who aren't SJWs and don't agree with their agenda. Watch for these new companies to appear and invest. There is opportunity here for the wise.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Sulla on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:11PM (3 children)
I see this is good news, more workers getting out to vote will result in a less progressive outcome. Why did the tea party only have rallies/protests on the weekends? They actually had a job to work.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 5, Interesting) by bob_super on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:21PM (2 children)
Given the unemployment numbers, the numbers of people who voted, and the fact that older retired people tend to lean right, can we stop with the stupid propaganda about D voters being jobless leeches while R voters are proud hard workers ?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:03PM
Too many leaches in places of power in both organizations if you ask me.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:09PM
I imagine thats where the recent shifts in Trump's approval rating came from. The 4% democrat swing and the 10% Latino swing to supporting Trump coincides nicely with being able to find employment.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:18PM (6 children)
The way to save the planet is increase economic throughput to the point where fusion is feasible. There's a type of potential energy barrier we have to break through and might only get one chance. Sitting around kumbaya circles does little to achieve this.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:40PM (4 children)
Nuclear fusion does not break the laws of thermodynamics.
Increasing economic activity is actually the last thing we need to do, because GDP is directly correlated to energy consumption.
Economic theories that rely on eternal growth are at odds with the laws of physics. There is an unacknowledged ceiling on the world economy, and it's the rate of energy transfer from the sun to the earth, plus whatever stored energy in the form of oil, uranium, gas, etc we have in the ground (for now).
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @08:47PM (2 children)
There is an unacknowledged ceiling on the world economy
Amen.
...and before that barrier is reached, the Capitalists will have overproduced, saturated the domestic market, and (The Deep State) will then insist that gov't use resources for Imperialism in order to expand, at gunpoint, the markets of the Capitalists in other places.
The Day the US Became an Empire [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [counterpunch.org]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @04:45AM (1 child)
Pffft, citations needed
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @07:55AM
Open your eyes and look around, fool.
...or are you one of those nitwits who still believes that the Imperialist aggression (not a war) against Vietnam was "necessary"?
N.B. A country without an air force or a navy of any consequence was NOT a threat to USA.
McNamara admitted that the Tonkin Gulf thing was complete fiction.
Admiral James Stockdale (Ross Perot's running mate), who flew top cover for the operation, has also said USAian forces were simply shooting into the dark.
...and WTF business did USAian forces have being there in the first place?
Every military operation USA has ever gotten into was unnecessary.
It's all about The Deep State selling goods (at hyperinflated prices) to the Department of Aggression and crushing resistance to USAian mercantilism. [google.com]
More on the topic from General Butler. [google.com]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @01:40AM
If energy consumption were a bad thing, you would have a point. It's not.
Let's look at it this way. Suppose the promises of the fusion proponents work out as advertised and price of energy drops an order of magnitude or more. Sure, energy consumption goes up. But we don't consume energy merely to consume it. It's always used for a purpose and with radically lower energy costs we have vastly more useful things for that energy to do. I find it amazing how people can damn low harm energy consumption (remember it's fusion so we're already almost completely neutralizing the climate change thing and a good portion of humanity's pollution sources) without even the slightest consideration of what that energy gets used for.
The problem here is that's huge room for growth. Even on the physics basis you describe, there's roughly five orders of magnitude difference between the energy we use and the energy the Earth intercepts from the Sun. And we can always intercept more energy by moving most of our civilization into space. The total energy coming from the Sun is roughly nine orders of magnitude greater than the energy intercepted by Earth. Fourteen orders of magnitude is not eternal growth, but it's a ridiculous amount of room to grow for a justification that we should stop growing shortly. And an eternal growth economic model will work just fine until one starts running out of zeros in millennia or longer. One can then switch to economic models that are more suited to that situation.
Second, it's premature to talk about the end of growth when there are plenty of things that still need growing. We don't all have developed world lifestyles or indefinite lifespans. We still haven't worked out that space economy with so much potential for growth. And I bet there's still a few things we could learn about the universe without prohibitive expenditures.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @01:13AM
One chance spread out over 500 million years or so. Solar and wind power are more than adequate enough on their own for this task. And they'll be around for a long time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:47PM (8 children)
Aww da poor baby got twiggahd.
It'll be OK jmorris, when we manage to kick out the cheeto brigade sanity will return and while most of us don't believe in the great jeebus we'll embody his teachings and not throw you all to the bears.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:25PM (4 children)
It's been two years almost, but I'm sure you guys have nearly got him.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday July 10 2018, @08:31PM (3 children)
It's been two years almost, but I'm sure you guys have nearly got him.
You are aware that presidential elections are held every 4 years, right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @10:28PM (2 children)
Were you asleep during all that talk of impeachment? Have you guys already given up on that?
It's good to see you're actually acknowledging Trump serve as president for at least four years.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @10:49PM (1 child)
What? You thought "impeachment" was about... what did you think it was about, anyway?
Here's what impeachment and the Russia investigation are about. The elites are telling Trump that he needs to implement their agenda or he will be in a world of shit. Trump seems to be advancing their agenda fairly well, so I don't think he'll be removed from office by Congress.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @12:05AM
I hold the same opinion. That it was even being entertained as a possibility with a Republican controlled congress was laughable.
Trump is exactly where he's supposed to be: in the hot seat, saying stupid things on Twitter while the Federal Reserve pulls the rug out from under the US economy and deflects all of the blame.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday July 10 2018, @08:37PM (2 children)
Speak for yourself. I personally would drop him into an active volcano just because of how loathsome a human being he is, politics be damned.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Tuesday July 10 2018, @09:08PM (1 child)
Well yes, a volcano, but what did the bears ever do to you?
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @09:11PM
Well for starters not being able to score more than 1 win in their entire miserable existence!
(Score: 3, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday July 10 2018, @08:34PM
So a SJW converged company is doing more SJW shit...
Damn, and Jmo concedes the thread in one!
As always, consider this a description of his own thoughts and actions (aka Projection).
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Wednesday July 11 2018, @12:09AM
Admit it - you're just upset that the Koch brothers won't give their staff time off (as long as the promise to vote R).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:04PM (22 children)
It would have been better to schedule shifts differently, but I guess that's not as useful to for grabbing a headline.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:18PM (21 children)
Here's another question: why do you need to hold elections in a working day?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:21PM (4 children)
Oh, come on now. You can't expect people to use their PERSONAL TIME to vote!
(Score: 2, Touché) by c0lo on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:29PM (3 children)
All the elections I hear about in the news are held on weekend. Except the USA ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:55PM
Canada has elections on work days. Employers must provide employee a three consecutive hour window to vote. If the hour overlap with normal working hours, it's timeoff with pay.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by nitehawk214 on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:53PM (1 child)
A lot of people work on weekends too.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Wednesday July 11 2018, @02:59AM
And so they have the option of casting an absentee (or "postal") vote.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:23PM (10 children)
Democracy is a dumb man's first draft of capitalism.
People should be using their wallets to vote every single day on how their own lives should be organized.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @09:04PM (9 children)
Democracy is a dumb man's first draft of capitalism
No. The 2 concepts have zero overlap.
Capitalism can exist in places with the most repressive of governments.
The dictatorship found in Saudi Arabia and Capitalism there co-exist just fine.
Capitalism is a top-down thing.
Democracy is bottom-up.
If what you have is NOT bottom-up, what you have is NOT Democracy (even if your Lamestream Media insists on referring to it using that bogus term).
When Democracy is expanded (to the workplace), what you get is Socialism.
Let's play "Name that system".
Example 1:
You go to work and someone else has decided what you will produce.
Someone else has decided how you will produce it.
Someone else has decided where it will be produced.
Someone else has decided what will be done with the profits.
Example 2:
You go to work and you and your coworkers democratically decide what you will produce.
You and your coworkers democratically decide how you will produce it.
You and your coworkers democratically decide where it will be produced.
You and your coworkers democratically decide what will be done with the profits.
N.B. Every worker's vote is equal to any other worker's vote.
...and the reason it works this way is because there are no non-worker owners|stockholders|board of directors.
In fact, it would be accurate to say that the workers (and only the workers) collectively own the means of production.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @12:23AM (5 children)
Under capitalism, you can spend your money making billboards that criticize anyone. But, you can't do that under a "repressive" government.
Check mate.
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:02AM
Unless you live under a repressive capilalist government.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @04:53AM (3 children)
The way communism and "socialism" (quotes b/c socialism has basically never been fully implemented) have been run so far are closer to dictatorships / monarchies than anything else.
Under a more pure capitalist system you are "free" to do whatever you want, however since 90% of everything is owned by 3% of the population you quickly run into the same problems. The difference? With capitalism you have the illusion of choice and control. If you complain about the situation then the problem is obviously with you for not being wealthy enough to do whatever you want.
Capitalism is the hidden form of monarchy. More precisely it is oligarchy since there is no single person that can strip others of their wealth on a whim. Now we have dozens of "kings" that can strip the wealth from anyone on a whim.
Given population growth I don't think we've much improved the situation.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @07:06AM (2 children)
Socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production by The Workers.
Mondragon has had Socialism fully implemented for 62 years.
Your other stuff is pure nonsense as well.
You are a nitwit.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:07PM (1 child)
Then move there and live out your socialist dream.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @08:46PM
Well, as is true of so many areas (healthcare, infant mortality, literacy), USA -is- bringing up the rear WRT worker-owned co-ops.
What I'm hoping to see is all of USA's Capitalist operations moving elsewhere.
(They clearly don't want to be USAian companies: stashing assets in other countries; not paying taxes here; paying lousy wages so that their employees can't really engage in the USAian economy; exporting jobs.)
After all the parasites leave, USA could become a Socialist paradise.
It actually already has a decent start.
Madison, WI has a nice cluster of co-ops. [google.com]
There's more around the country. [headlamppictures.com]
Another list (the California Bay Area is well represented) [wikipedia.org]
I'd like to see even more places with signage that says "A Worker-Owned Company".
Y'know get the DEMOCRACY EVERYWHERE thing going in USA.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @02:09AM (2 children)
Neither is true. We have plenty of counterexamples of bottom-up capitalism (such as small businesses) and top-down democracy (such as national level bureaucracy).
If you went to work voluntarily, then you decided that is what you will produce as well.
If you disagree with the majority, you have no more power to decide what you will produce than you did for the capitalist.
Even though some worker's votes would be far better than other ones? Employee owned businesses aren't always better than their more authoritarian counterparts. For if they were, there would be a lot more of them!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @02:58AM (1 child)
When you have shown that there is a non-owner employee with an equal vote in matters which affect the business, THEN we can talk about bottom-up.
...of course, that wouldn't be Capitalism.
That would be Socialism.
(You may be confusing Entrepreneurship with Capitalism yet again.)
Employee owned businesses aren't always better
Do supply the particulars of the Socialist workplace in which you worked and on which you base your ridiculous comparison of dictatorship vs Democracy in the Workplace.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:09AM
Now, you're redefining bottom-up to uselessness. A real world example of similar bottom-up capitalism would be an employee who starts their own business.
Because I have to experience every possible scenario in order to have a well-educated opinion on the matter while you do not?
(Score: 4, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:02PM (4 children)
Ironically, election day was originally put where it is to avoid working days.
In an agrarian society (early US), Wednesday was the most common market day (still true of some farmers markets in rural areas), so Wednesday was out for election day.
Monday was also problematic because some voters might have to travel a significant distance to the polls, and thus might have to start travel on Sunday (the Sabbath, the day of rest and worship). Put it on Tuesday and those who travel far can come in on Monday, vote Tuesday morning, and be home in time to sell goods on Wednesday.
So we originally set the schedule to help workers be able to make money doing their normal work. Why we still have it on Tuesday is just because of the typical irresponsibility of Congress in updating law.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:06PM (1 child)
Yet, suggesting alternative systems is met with the vilest opprobrium.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @11:14PM
Because that is just another free handout to entitled lazy bums!!!!
Or something? I'm not sure, I think they are actually just riding the hate train with no clue why they hopped on in the first place.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @02:14AM (1 child)
While there's a lot of irresponsibility in Congress, have you ever looked at how much law there is to update? It's more like doing the impossible.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:13AM
In a democracy, I'd think updating the law to allow people to vote easily should be one of the HIGHEST priorities though.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Arik on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:04PM (12 children)
Inquiring minds want to know. (r)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:19PM (9 children)
I think that you and I got lost on the same geographical detour. I'm thinking, "They're going to close an entire country down, so people can vote?" Well - it's not a country, just a region, but still . . .
Imagine the audacity of naming your chain of stores after another region or country. I don't see a Switzerland chain, or an Estonia chain. I guess if you don't live in a country with an army of it's own, anyone can appropriate your stuff - even your name. That is really cultural misappropriation!!
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:24PM
Welcome to Kathmandu [wikipedia.org]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Funny) by Arik on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:27PM (2 children)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:43PM
Works for me!
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:59PM
More company names. [qz.com]
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @09:21PM (3 children)
I have said this repeatedly WRT the tech realm.
MSFT, in particular, has a nearly complete lack of originality.
Windows, Word, Office, Money, .NET -- WTF??
Meanwhile, every time that Big Pharma comes up with new pill, it comes up with a never-been-used-before name for that:
Advil, Tylenol, Paxil, Zoloft, Motrin, ...
All uniquely Googleable.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @02:26AM (1 child)
I guess you haven't figured out why they do that. Branding trumps lack of originality.
Only if you remember the name.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:10AM
I already mentioned "Googleable".
Gates' silly little book (The Road Ahead, 1995) didn't mention the Internet.
Gates thought the future was his bunch sell content on CDs (Encarta).
He went back and added the 'Net for the 2nd printing.
MSFT has a complete lack of vision and it starts at the top there.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @04:17AM
> MSFT, in particular, has a nearly complete lack of originality.
> Windows, Word, Office, Money, .NET -- WTF??
Ah, but that's the entire point.
Quoting The Digital Antiquarian's Doing Windows, Part 2 [filfre.net]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @10:21PM
you missed amazon. I think.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:21PM
Nah, holiday only extending into the Tierra del Fuego.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @07:20PM
Yeah, it would have been better if they'd said "Patagonia, Inc" so I didn't have to get half way through the summary to realize is was just a company not a region.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:23PM (34 children)
See subject. You CANNOT tell me this country is interested in having all its citizens vote when having to work will prevent a good chunk of them--not coincidentally, I suspect, the very poorest--from being able to do so. Election Day needs to be a national holiday for specifically this purpose. I'd like to see mandatory voting enforced, too. ...I'd also like to see J-Mo swandive into the wood chipper, car crusher, or industrial shredder of his choice for his anti-American horseshit in the first post.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:28PM (4 children)
are you incapable of posting without bitching about somebody you don't like on this site
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:03PM
The modus operandi here is shit talking other users, but not directly in a reply to them. I guess that cuts down on the replies you have to read from the target, since they don't notice it as often.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:08PM (1 child)
When a small minority of users post horrendously trollish crap that advocates for the destruction of our country, then yeah, gotta call them out.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday July 10 2018, @08:39PM
They're actually angry that people will be allowed to vote. Can't get much more Un-American than that!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday July 10 2018, @08:32PM
No, but when it's someone like him, who is probably the nuttiest RWNJ on the site (and Jesus, THAT is saying something...), I'm going to call it out. He wants it all burned down. This makes him de facto if nor de jure anti-American.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @06:38PM (11 children)
Everything in the State; nothing outside the State.
—Mussolini, father of fascism.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @08:36PM
Well no problem, I'm with you! For a lot of things we need a federal law that won't allow states to get away with disenfranchising bullshit.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @09:43PM (9 children)
...yet Mussolini's system was the opposite of that.
Public ownership of anything is anathema to Fascism.
Fascism is Capitalism extended to government (a top-down thing with the same tiny controlling group).
So "The State" in his comment should actually be "The Deep State" AKA the Oligarchic Capitalist ownership class.
The reason that that guy got to be so big (before he was beaten to death by his countrymen) was that he could layer the bullshit very deep without The Media calling bullshit (very much like the way Drumpf gets away with meaningless word salad).
(These days, you have to listen to comedians e.g. Jimmy Dore to have what politicians[1] say debunked.)
[1] That guy takes on The R's and The D's.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @12:29AM (7 children)
Learn you some history. I recommend this book:
Also, government and capitalism are mutually exclusive; capitalism doesn't allow for unilateral decree at the point of a gun (e.g., legislation), but rather requires total agreement in advance of interaction (with the knowledge that this is an iterative process involving dispute resolution, etc.). Taxation is not allowed under capitalism; governments are not allowed under capitalism.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @01:12AM
You seem to be confusing Capitalism with Anarchism.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @02:37AM
capitalism doesn't allow for unilateral decree at the point of a gun
You should research The East India Company (which had its own army).
Numerous Capitalists called in Pinkertons to shoot strikers.
governments are not allowed under capitalism
I have to give you points[1] for your imaginative use of pretzel logic.
[1] ...to match the one already at the top of your head.
...and we already tried the Capitalism + limited government thing.
It led to The Gilded Age (which was only gilded for a tiny few) and which overlapped The Long Depression (1873 - 1896) experienced by the majority.
We figured out that regulation makes for a more stable society and we passed the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890.
People who don't think that gov't is necessary apparently want the Law of the Jungle thing that is happening with Amazon, AT&T, etc. where there are only big fish left who can do whatever they want.
...or can you explain your notion in a way that won't make us all just swivel our heads in disbelief?
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:20AM (4 children)
Not even wrong. Capitalism is merely a system of private ownership of capital. Legislation is not unilateral decree at the point of a gun. You're not even getting basic definitions right. I guess that makes you a good foil for OriginalOwner since the two of you can just make up stuff at each other. Just get a room or something.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @07:25AM (3 children)
The term for that is "business".
Stated correctly, it's "the ownership of the means of production".
...and that is not exclusive to Capitalism.
What distinguishes Capitalism is the exploitation of non-owner workers by The Ownership Class.
Specifically, it's about what will be done with the surplus [google.com] and who gets to decide that.
This was already addressed in #705380
...and if one person forms a business where he does not have any underlings to exploit, where he does ALL of the labor or contracts with other businesses to do tasks, that's called Entrepreneurship.
...and that also meets your ridiculously broad "definition".
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @12:35PM (2 children)
The private NGO, Red Cross has capital. It's not a business.
And what does a taxi (which is capital) produce? Rides aren't finished goods.
Further, you completely ignore a key part of the definition of capitalism, namely, who owns the capital. Capitalism is not ownership of the means of production, it's a system to support private ownership of capital. Finally, why should we use clunky, tired cliches like "ownership of the means of production" (not to mention the deceptive phrases routinely used by that ideology)? Communism/Marxism failed at the societal level. It's time to abandon the primitive nomenclature as well.
No, it doesn't. One sees that in other systems of organization too, even nominally Socialist ones (theoretical ownership need not be control). And some systems are much easier to divert resources from than others.
It's still capitalism.
My definition is accurate and encompasses the actual nuance of capitalism which just so happens to be a really broad concept.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @09:04PM (1 child)
Per usual, you're wrong on every point.
The only place you'd be considered "correct" is among a group of Reactionaries (Dittoheads who do no thinking of their own).
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 12 2018, @03:40AM
And now we see that "wrong" and "point" have suffered this semantic dilution. If you don't use words for their meaning, then your speech ceases to have meaning.
I wonder who else out there thinks that capitalism somehow doesn't mean (or rather shouldn't mean) a system of private ownership of capital? Can't be many. And what words should I be using for this system, if "capitalism" isn't appropriate?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @02:32AM
State ownership != public ownership.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:00PM (11 children)
How is a national holiday for election day implemented? Penalize businesses that don't let employees stay home that day? The best that could be done is to make it a federal holiday so that federal government employees get it off. Even then, the mission critical ones will be forced to vote by absentee ballot or something. I hit reply expecting to support that idea, but when you think about it, it is actually not great.
Moving it off of Tuesday would be a good start, although be careful what you wish for since there may be unexpected voting demographic shifts from moving it onto Saturday or Sunday (remember, a lot of churches are polling places). Getting more locales to do at least week-long early voting (physical locations) would be the best solution. Can we enshrine that in law?
Mandatory voting doesn't seem like it will result in great outcomes. If you weren't motivated enough to go to the polling booth, you will just "Christmas tree" the choices. Punishment is also not too feasible. "I hurt my leg! I got lost!" Giving people a tax credit in exchange for some standard proof that they voted would be better. By standard, I mean some kind of document that can be printed or handed out there, with details from the ID you provided, and not people taking selfies in the voting booth.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:11PM (1 child)
Yes, grounds for a lawsuit. Employers will have to offer overtime or some other enticement to get employees to work that day. Are they required to pay the employees? I'll leave that as an exercise for the state, but if an employee is unable to vote due to work then they have a nice fat lawsuit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @09:15PM
I'm pretty sure employers are already required to give time off for voting. I guess thr current laws might not require paid time off. But it's really a question of enforcement: if you can't afford to lose an hour or two of pay to vote, you definitely can't afford a lawyer to sue your employer.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:26PM (8 children)
Follow the same path as was followed for MLK Day. I was recently reading about the process of making a holiday and a huge hurdle is dealing with the states. A paid holiday will cost employers a ton of money. In 2012 Oregon had ~80k employees which at the current minimum wage of 10.75 would cost the state 6.88 million for that one day not including any additional amounts for insurance or retirement accounts. The actual number would be much higher than that as the average hourly wage is higher than that.
With MLKD they did not pass it at the federal level until more than half the states had already adopted the holiday. Blue states should be easier to lobby on this than red states as state employees are overwhelmingly democratic, but it gets the ball rolling. Once business sees that the policies they have paid for are under threat by government workers being able to vote in greater numbers they will find a way to get their employees out to vote at the polls as well, either by giving them a couple of hours that day or some sort of holiday situation.
The better option I think is mail ballots like Oregon has. In 2016 Oregon's voter turnout was 80% of registered voters. Unfortunately only 63% of folks in Oregon are registered.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:35PM (7 children)
You're not wary of mail-in ballots? By necessity your name has to be attached to your choices.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Tuesday July 10 2018, @08:13PM (3 children)
The way I understand it to work is you have two envelopes and the ballot. External ballot has your signature that is confirmed against your voter registration and the middle envelope makes you unable to read anything from the ballot. Your name is only on the external ballot. It is entirely possible that my name is being linked to my vote but I am not as concerned as perhaps I should be. It seems to me the power in being able to know how someone voted is to coerce them to vote in a certain way, if how someone voted is being linked to the person but that information is not known to the voter at the time of the vote, their vote is still genuine.
This made me realize that my view of believing it can only be used for coercion is wrong in the modern environment with all the doxing/etc. I imagine that if someone could link my ballot to who I am it is entirely possible I could be fired for being too conservative had I voted for Trump, as a Daryl W. Perry voter I am not terribly concerned.
I think that if someone were able to link the vote to the person there would be greater utility in destroying votes than it would be to destroy the voter, at least in the short run. Ala Minnesota, although I think Franken's people were just finding additional votes 99% for Franken in basements and car trunks, but same same.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Wednesday July 11 2018, @04:01AM (2 children)
I think the main risk is votes being thrown out if they are for the wrong candidates.
Even if your privacy is successfully maintained, a corrupt election worker and lackey observers could "lose" as many absentee ballots as they feel like.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday July 11 2018, @04:14AM
I don't recall how it turned out but wasn't there some girl that was doing that with Trump ballots back in 2016?
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @05:14AM
Pretty sure it was Ralph Nader where I heard this.
The most definite way to make sure your vote gets counted is to
-sign up for an absentee|mail-in ballot
-make sure it has arrived before the deadline for those
-fill it out
-take it to the polling place on Election Day and drop it in the ballot box.
No "you're not registered" nonsense, no gameable computers, no partisan folks making sure it doesn't go into the box.
One assumes that when the votes are taken out of the ballot box and counted on Election Day, there will be people involved who are of more than 1 party watching over things.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by Rich26189 on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:06AM (2 children)
Election worker here. No, not necessarily. If you’re concerned about your ballot being linked to your identity, don’t be, at least not in my town following our state laws, YMMV.
Any identifying information such as name, address and precinct are on the sealed envelope only and only on one side. This is needed so on election day the envelope can be sent to the proper precinct where the name and address can be verified as that of an eligible voter who has not already *voted in person.
Once confirmed the voter is marked as having voted and the envelopes taken to a table where the clerk or warden will stack the envelopes face down; open the envelopes; and immediately separate the ballot from the envelope. This is all done at the polling place, while the polls are open and in the public’s view, anyone may observe this process.
The ballots are then taken to be cast, in our case we use optical scanners so the ballots are fed into the voting machines. Again, all this is in the public’s view. I believe the envelopes are destroyed but all ballots are kept per state law, locked in secure storage for some number of months oddly, I am told, in some cases longer than the terms of office for which the elections were held.
I do see a few people taking a photo of their ballot before they cast it, no law against that. Some say that could be used to “buy” votes. Well, yes, but you could photo your ballot then go to the clerk and claim a “spoiled ballot” at which time your first ballot will be taken from you and destroyed and you will be given a second ballot. Limit is three.
In our town, county, state we are testing early voting and, IMHO, is a good thing. The voters get a week or two prior to election day to cast their ballots though they do have to show up in person at a designated early polling place, e.g. town hall. There doesn’t need to be a holiday or scheduled weekend for the voting to take place. Early voting messes with exit polling so anything to disrupt that is good.
Note that early voting and absentee voting are two separate processes (state law). Once the envelope containing your absentee ballot is received you are counted as having voted period. Early voter may change their vote (see below). Regardless, the envelopes are not opened and the ballots not counted until election day.
* Early voting does allow a voter that has changed his or her mind to come in and vote in person on election day, but you have to show up BEFORE your early voted is counted and that is a crap shoot. If you do show up and vote your early vote envelop will not be counted and simply destroyed. If you show up AFTER your early voted is counted, too bad, you’ve already voted.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:59AM (1 child)
It's great that your county has it figured out. But there is some trust involved, and a combination of voter apathy and foxes (or wolves?) guarding the henhouse could make oversight completely ineffectual. I expect this kind of tyranny to be hyperlocal, not widely acknowledged, and mainly affecting races such as the election of the sheriff, which is a god-like role in some areas. I'm also not impressed with this idea of changing your vote during the ~week-long early voting period.
I agree that messing up exit polling would be a good thing.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 14 2018, @04:26AM
Exit polling is one of the ways to detect election fraud. Because a big symptom is that vote counts differ greatly from the exit polls. So sure, voters might be lying to the exit pollsters - or they might not.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:08PM
"--not coincidentally, I suspect, the very poorest--"
Only if you consider the working poor the very poorest, and a case can be made for that but I'd be shocked if you were the one to make it.
The chronically unemployed public dependents are commonly placed a rung lower, however, and they obviously have no problem getting the time off to go to the polls.
Considering the demographics that probably means that this swings more in favor of the blues than the reds, though of course it's quite possible there's another important factor we aren't considering.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday July 11 2018, @05:08AM (3 children)
You are simply being stupid now. If you have a semi-functioning society you can run elections well enough that people do not have to spend hours in line. I live in a banana republic (Louisiana, almost as corrupt as IL or NJ but not quite after a few halfway competent administrations) and I have never waited more than couple of minutes to vote. Also lived in TX for a few years (Dallas and burbs around it) and they also knew how to run a polling place. Once you have that problem solved it isn't required to give people a day off work to vote. Just keep the polling places open long enough to give an opportunity to vote before or after and even lunch hour is a viable option. Here in LA we generally run the polls 8AM-8PM and it works just fine. And if you don't have a functioning society, giving people the day off won't solve that problem and few will use that day off to stand in line for hours. Solve the root problem, fix the corrupt and incompetent poll officials.
But mandatory voting? Insane. If you don't know and don't care about politics the very best thing you can do is stay the Hell out of a polling place. Democracy is a terrible idea anyway, the Founding Fathers were obviously wrong when they assured everyone they had designed a Republic immune to the disease of Democracy. These days it is hard to find a Conservative or Republican who will refer to the U.S. as a Republic instead of a Democracy. Yet anyone who has spent any time at all studying political philosophy understands Democracy is an abomination that needs to be, and violently if need be, stamped out wherever it is found lest it spread. We should be discussing way to restrict the franchise and otherwise strengthen the Republic. Start with No Representation Without Taxation.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @06:38AM
> Yet anyone who has spent any time at all studying political philosophy understands Democracy is an abomination that needs to be, and violently if need be, stamped out wherever it is found lest it spread.
As a Swiss I call bullshit. Implemented correctly Democracy works at least as well as other systems, and possibly better. Maybe you should spend time studying history instead of "political philosophy".
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:35PM (1 child)
Get the hell out of the US. I mean it. Go somewhere where they implement your preferred form of government, be in monarchy or anarchy, but get the fuck out of the United States. You very clearly hate the founding principles from the bottom up, so do us all a favor including yourself and leave.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @05:27PM
The founding principles enfranchised only landowning male citizens, so I think he is in fact in line with those. He's totally against the MODERN principles, but what did you expect?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 10 2018, @07:15PM (1 child)
Democrats: think of the children!
Republicans: think of the businesses!
Both are used to rally their base and push through whatever horrific stupidity of the day can't stand on its own merits.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday July 10 2018, @08:37PM
Remember when encouraging people to vote was bi-partisan. Pepperidge farm remembers....
(Score: 1, Redundant) by GlennC on Tuesday July 10 2018, @11:00PM (5 children)
For me, it was the death knell for our grand experiment in representative democracy.
The only problem is that it appears that many haven't realized that it's dead.
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Captival on Wednesday July 11 2018, @02:33AM (2 children)
That's right! The media, who is totally objective and unbiased, told me that Hillary The Queen Clinton was definitely going to win!! No contest! Landslide incoming! Since this didn't happen, the only possible conclusion is that shady Russians hacked the election. No, not the shady Russians that gave the Clintons hundreds of millions of dollars. They don't count, shut up about those Russians.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 11 2018, @08:24AM
There was a time when The Press was called "The Fourth Estate".
That was because they had a balancing power for society in their ability to deliver the truth.
That hasn't been a thing in USA for decades.
Nowadays, it's "What's really sensational that we can point our cameras at?"
...which is not to say that there wasn't a lot of that in decades past--but geez.
...and, of course, anything that might cast a corporate sponsor in a bad light is elided upon receipt.
Truth? Don't go looking for a whole lot of that in Lamestream Media.
told me that Hillary [...] was definitely going to win
It's like they were saying "Your D vote isn't needed; just say home that day."
"The Liberal Media"?? Hmmm.
I note that you didn't mention what a lousy campaign Killery ran.
...and I'll take the opportunity here to mention the incredibly racist thing that Cadet Bone Spurs ran.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday July 11 2018, @04:20PM
The media, who is totally objective and unbiased, told me that Hillary The Queen Clinton was definitely going to win!! No contest! Landslide incoming!
Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton - NOV. 4, 2016, AT 11:09 AM [fivethirtyeight.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 11 2018, @02:49AM
Because someone voted for the wrong candidate, amirite? The weird thing is that Trump, despite his many glaring flaws, was the best exercise of democracy in US presidential elections in perhaps two decades (since at least Clinton's first election, I'd say). Just look at the situation. He took over the Republican party nomination despite being heavily attacked by the party itself - in other words, democracy trumped the smoked-filled room. Then he won a hard fought election against the heavily favored establishment candidate from the Democrat party side. The only problem really is that he had the wrong beliefs from your point of view. That's never been relevant to democracy before.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday July 11 2018, @03:36PM
I would have said 1980 honestly. Most of this is Reagan's fault at a few degrees of separation.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...