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posted by martyb on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:04AM   Printer-friendly
from the communications-issues dept.

Michael Kovrig, former Canadian diplomat, reportedly arrested in China

A former Canadian diplomat has reportedly been arrested in China. The International Crisis Group said Tuesday it's aware of reports that its North East Asia senior adviser Michael Kovrig has been detained.

The Brussels-based non-governmental organization said in a statement it's doing everything possible to obtain additional information about Kovrig's whereabouts and that it will work to ensure his prompt release.

The Globe and Mail in Toronto and the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. reported the arrest, citing unnamed sources.

Reports of Kovrig's detention come after China warned Canada of consequences for its recent arrest of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou at Vancouver's airport. It's unclear if there's any link between the cases.

Some Chinese companies ban iPhones, require Huawei after CFO's arrest: report

Some Chinese companies are banning iPhones and requiring that their employees use Huawei products following the arrest of Huawei's chief financial officer, according to a new Yahoo News report. Meng Wanzhou, the CFO of Chinese telecom giant Huawei, was arrested by Canadian authorities last Saturday at the request of the U.S. after allegedly violating trade sanctions against Iran. Chinese officials have strongly protested Meng's detention.

Now, Chinese companies are promoting Huawei and barring Apple, an American company. Menpad, an LCD display maker and Huawei supplier, on Monday said it will punish employees who buy iPhones with a fine equivalent to the American smartphone's market price, the South China Morning Post reported. It also vowed that the company will no longer buy American products, including office supplies and computers, and will offer a 15 percent subsidy for employees who are buying Huawei phones, according to the Post.

Japan's top three telcos to exclude Huawei, ZTE network equipment: Kyodo

Japan's big three telecom operators plan not to use current equipment and upcoming fifth-generation (5G) gear from China's Huawei Technologies Co Ltd and ZTE Corp, Kyodo News reported on Monday.

The news, for which Kyodo did not cite sources, comes at a time of heightened scrutiny of Chinese tech firms by Washington and some prominent allies over ties to the Chinese government, driven by concerns they could be used by Beijing for spying. Last week sources told Reuters that Japan planned to ban government purchases of equipment from Huawei and ZTE to ensure strength in its defences against intelligence leaks and cyber attacks.

See also: How Meng Wanzhou's Arrest Might Backfire

Previously: Canada Arrests Huawei's Global Chief Financial Officer in Vancouver
Arrest of Huawei Executive Causing Discontent Among Chinese Elites

Related: New Law Bans U.S. Government from Buying Equipment from Chinese Telecom Giants ZTE and Huawei
Australia Bans China's Huawei (and maybe ZTE) from 5G Mobile Network Project
Washington Asks Allies to Drop Huawei


Original Submission

Related Stories

New Law Bans U.S. Government from Buying Equipment from Chinese Telecom Giants ZTE and Huawei 26 comments

President Trump yesterday signed a defense funding bill that included a sweeping ban on the US government using technology supplied by Chinese telecommunications giants ZTE and Huawei. The bill also includes a narrower ban on using surveillance gear provided by Chinese companies Hytera Communications, Hangzhou Hikvision Digital Technology, or Dahua Technology for national security applications.

The legislation directs federal agencies to stop using the Chinese-made hardware within two years. If that proves impractical, an agency can apply for a waiver to permit a longer phase-out period.

Obviously, being banned from selling to the US government is a significant blow to these companies. But overall the bill actually represents something of a reprieve for ZTE. Back in June, the US Senate passed a version of the bill that would have re-imposed an export ban that would have been a de facto death sentence for ZTE because ZTE is heavily dependent on components like Qualcomm chips and Google's Android operating system.

Previously: Verizon Cancels Plans to Sell Huawei Phone Due to U.S. Government Pressure
U.S. Intelligence Agency Heads Warn Against Using Huawei and ZTE Products
The U.S. Intelligence Community's Demonization of Huawei Remains Highly Hypocritical
Huawei CEO Still Committed to the U.S. Market
Rural Wireless Association Opposes U.S. Government Ban on Huawei and ZTE Equipment
ZTE Suspends Operations Due to U.S. Ban (UPDATED)


Original Submission

Australia Bans China's Huawei (and maybe ZTE) from 5G Mobile Network Project 13 comments

The Sydney Morning Herald reports that Australia's government on Thursday banned major Chinese telecoms firm Huawei Technologies from supplying equipment for its planned 5G mobile network, citing risks of foreign interference.

The 1000-word statement did not mention China, or the Chinese telecommunications equipment giants Huawei or ZTE. Nor did it plainly state the bombshell decision that they are to be banned from building Australia's new telecommunications network.

The fifth generation mobile telecoms system, or 5G, is a big deal. It's to be the key architecture of an increasingly wired nation, connecting power and water systems, medical and driverless technologies, systems in homes and hospitals, factories and farms, enabling the so-called "internet of things".

If you're getting the impression that the government didn't want to draw attention to the announcement, you're right. After months of careful scrutiny, the cabinet's national security committee had made the decision a week earlier. Then sat on it.

Washington Asks Allies to Drop Huawei 36 comments

Submitted via IRC for SoyCow1984

Washington Asks Allies to Drop Huawei

The U.S. government has initiated an extraordinary outreach campaign to foreign allies, trying to persuade wireless and internet providers in these countries to avoid telecommunications equipment from China's Huawei Technologies Co., according to people familiar with the situation.

American officials have briefed their government counterparts and telecom executives in friendly countries where Huawei equipment is already in wide use, including Germany, Italy and Japan, about what they see as cybersecurity risks, these people said. The U.S. is also considering increasing financial aid for telecommunications development in countries that shun Chinese-made equipment, some of these people say.

Also: The US is warning other countries against using Huawei's 5G tech


Original Submission

Canada Arrests Huawei's Global Chief Financial Officer in Vancouver 45 comments

Canada Arrests Huawei's Global Chief Financial Officer in Vancouver, Canada

Canada has arrested the chief financial officer of China’s Huawei Technologies who is facing extradition to the United States on suspicion she violated U.S. trade sanctions against Iran.

Wanzhou Meng, who is also the deputy chair of Huawei’s board and the daughter of company founder Ren Zhengfei, was arrested in Vancouver at the request of U.S. authorities.

“Wanzhou Meng was arrested in Vancouver on December 1. She is sought for extradition by the United States, and a bail hearing has been set for Friday,” Justice department spokesperson Ian McLeod said in a statement to The Globe and Mail. “As there is a publication ban in effect, we cannot provide any further detail at this time. The ban was sought by Ms. Meng.

A Canadian source with knowledge of the arrest said U.S. law enforcement authorities are alleging that Ms. Meng tried to evade the U.S. trade embargo against Iran but provided no further details.

Also at The Register and c|net.


Original Submission

Arrest of Huawei Executive Causing Discontent Among Chinese Elites 86 comments

Huawei Arrest Tests China's Leaders as Fear and Anger Grip Elite

The arrest of one of China's leading tech executives by the Canadian police for extradition to the United States has unleashed a combustible torrent of outrage and alarm among affluent and influential Chinese, posing a delicate political test for President Xi Jinping and his grip on the loyalty of the nation's elite.

The outpouring of conflicting sentiments — some Chinese have demanded a boycott of American products while others have expressed anxiety about their investments in the United States — underscores the unusual, politically charged nature of the Trump administration's latest move to counter China's drive for technological superiority.

In a hearing on Friday in Vancouver, Canadian prosecutors said the executive, Meng Wanzhou of the Chinese telecom giant Huawei, faced accusations of participating in a scheme to trick financial institutions into making transactions that violated United States sanctions against Iran.

Unlike a new round of tariffs or more tough rhetoric from American officials, the detention of Ms. Meng, the company's chief financial officer, appears to have driven home the intensifying rivalry between the United States and China in a visceral way for the Chinese establishment — and may force Mr. Xi to adopt a tougher stance against Washington, analysts said. In part, that is because Ms. Meng, 46, is so embedded in that establishment herself.

Previously: Canada Arrests Huawei's Global Chief Financial Officer in Vancouver

Related: New Law Bans U.S. Government from Buying Equipment from Chinese Telecom Giants ZTE and Huawei
Australia Bans China's Huawei (and maybe ZTE) from 5G Mobile Network Project
Washington Asks Allies to Drop Huawei


Original Submission

Second Canadian Detained in China 45 comments

Canadian Michael Spavor detained in China as Huawei row continues

A second Canadian has been detained in China on accusations of harming national security, as tension continues between the two countries. It was confirmed on Thursday that Michael Spavor, a businessman, had been detained in addition to former diplomat Michael Kovrig.

Canada drew Chinese protests after it arrested an executive at telecoms giant Huawei at the request of the US. Meng Wanzhou has been bailed but may face extradition for fraud.

[...] Michael Spavor is a businessman based in Dandong, near the Chinese border with North Korea. He has ties to the North Korean government and has met its leader Kim Jong-un many times.

Ex-diplomat Michael Kovrig currently works for a think tank, the International Crisis Group (ICG), which has said it is concerned for his health and safety. He is being held officially "on suspicion of engaging in activities that harm China's state security".

However, a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman, Lu Kang, suggested another reason, saying the ICG had not been registered as a non-governmental organisation (NGO) in China and therefore it was unlawful for its staff to work there. Checks by Reuters news agency did not turn up a registration for ICG on government databases for NGOs or social enterprises.

Canadian Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland has said Mr Kovrig's case was raised directly with Chinese officials.

The article has a photo of Spavor standing with Dennis Rodman.

Previously: Canada Arrests Huawei's Global Chief Financial Officer in Vancouver
Arrest of Huawei Executive Causing Discontent Among Chinese Elites
China Arrests Former Canadian Diplomat; Chinese Companies Ban iPhones, Require Huawei Phones


Original Submission

The FBI Conducted a Sting Operation on Huawei During CES 26 comments

FBI reportedly carried out a sting operation on Huawei at a burger joint - While a Bloomberg reporter watched from a nearby gelato stand.

The makers of a super-hard smartphone glass made partially of synthetic diamonds took part in an FBI sting on Huawei, according to a new Bloomberg report. The operation apparently took place at a Prime Burger joint in Vegas during CES last month, while a Businessweek reporter watched from a nearby gelato stand. The embattled Chinese company had ordered samples of the "Miraj Diamond Glass" from US startup Akhan Semiconductor in 2017, only to return them badly damaged. Suspecting Huawei of intellectual property theft, Akhan's founder Adam Khan reportedly contacted the FBI, which drafted him and COO Carl Shurboff to take part in its Huawei investigations.

Email and text communications between the startup and a Huawei engineer were reportedly forwarded to the agency as part of the inquiry. A phone call between Khan, Shurboff and the same Huawei representative was also allegedly tapped on December 10th. Then came the Vegas sting, with the same Huawei staffer in attendance along with her colleague, Jennifer Lo, a senior official with the company in Santa Clara, California. Unbeknown to them, Khan and Shurboff were allegedly taping the entire get-together.

Throughout the meeting, the Huawei reps denied that it had violated US export laws, including provisions of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), which control the export of materials with defense applications -- diamond being one of those materials. They also "claimed ignorance" when it came to the damaged samples.

The FBI also raided a Huawei lab in San Diego. This particular investigation has not resulted in any charges yet.

Also at CNBC.

Related: Arrest of Huawei Executive Causing Discontent Among Chinese Elites
China Arrests Former Canadian Diplomat; Chinese Companies Ban iPhones, Require Huawei Phones
Huawei Under Investigation by DoJ for Theft of T-Mobile Trade Secrets


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:07AM (27 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:07AM (#773266)

    The Chinese do take this kind of stuff personally, and if the US doesn't resolve this real quick, US businesspeople, students and tourists are going to be Red Cornered all over the People's Republic.
    ...
    What goes for the US goes for their running dogs, the Canadians, too.

    Told you so.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:08AM (24 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:08AM (#773289) Journal
      If China really retaliated for Meng Wanzhou, then they just escalated a conflict with the US to Canada. I don't see your reason for tough talk here. If there really is evidence of fraud, it's a losing battle to defend her, particularly with the capricious arrests of foreign nationals from countries other than the US.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:45AM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:45AM (#773300)
        It's all politics. When a politician says "fraud" it means whatever he wants it to mean. The Ecuadorian Hermit got indicted by Sweden for unprotected sex, but we know better.
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:17AM (3 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:17AM (#773312) Journal

          When a politician says "fraud"

          We'll see who else ends saying "fraud" as well. A jury saying that is a very different matter.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:29AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:29AM (#773321)
            If the US jury says "fraud", then a Chinese people's court will sentence a US citizen for the same charge. They cannot care less what twelve US citizens believed to.
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:58AM (1 child)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:58AM (#773325) Journal

              They cannot care less what twelve US citizens believed to.

              They can't care less than to make a public demonstration, no doubt with weeks of media coverage, that they care enough to stage a fake court trial, that is. That is a great deal of care.

              If they truly couldn't care any less, then there would be no response at all.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:23PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:23PM (#773690)

                As fake as the "trials" are in the US. We seem to be staging a lot of them. They all appear to have a certain "give me six lines" theme to them.

      • (Score: 2) by richtopia on Wednesday December 12 2018, @07:34AM (18 children)

        by richtopia (3160) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @07:34AM (#773352) Homepage Journal

        Meng was arrested in Canada. I suspect this is more of a tit-for-tat, and a message to Canada to stay out of the trade dispute politics.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:58PM (17 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:58PM (#773456) Journal
          Of course, it is. But the US has a lot of treaties with a lot of countries. Is China going to absurdly tit-for-tat every time, potentially pulling in many other countries into the trade dispute while simultaneously futilely sending out that "message"?
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by bob_super on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:59PM (16 children)

            by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:59PM (#773564)

            Other countries will just happen to have to verify whether that US warrant is printed in the right font and on A4 paper while ... oops ... the Chinese citizen already departed. What a stroke of bad luck !

            When the US president is busy insulting or picking fights with most of the World, the Chinese are busy leveraging their soft power and their money. When you need allies to make decisions that could piss off one of the two sides, details matter.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:56PM (15 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:56PM (#773710) Journal

              Other countries will just happen to have to verify whether that US warrant is printed in the right font and on A4 paper while ... oops ... the Chinese citizen already departed. What a stroke of bad luck !

              Because they didn't really need an international treaty system anyway, amirite? The point here is that the US made a legitimate request. They're merely following the law. Then we repeatedly have this insistence that because China is a bad actor, we should not follow the law. It doesn't make sense.

              • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:24PM (14 children)

                by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:24PM (#773731)

                The subtle and complex art of diplomacy includes knowing when to make exceptions, look away, or make mistakes to get to a result that satisfies some without angering others.
                And then keep a list, for when it's your turn to need a mistake.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:46PM (13 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:46PM (#773745) Journal

                  The subtle and complex art of diplomacy includes knowing when to make exceptions, look away, or make mistakes to get to a result that satisfies some without angering others. And then keep a list, for when it's your turn to need a mistake.

                  Like the "subtle diplomacy" that led to the Second World War? Throwing away basic principles of your society in order to appease the powerful just might have a few unintended consequences.

                  • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:51PM (12 children)

                    by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:51PM (#773748)

                    "knowing when to"

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:56PM (11 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:56PM (#773750) Journal

                      "knowing when to"

                      That you're still posting indicates to me that you don't know when to.

                      • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:10PM (10 children)

                        by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:10PM (#773758)

                        And there I thought we were just having a civil disagreement...

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:23PM (2 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:23PM (#773767)

                          You are talking to khallow. He/she/it pretends to be civil as a strategy for "winning", but there is very little critical thinking going on there. The goal is to keep poking away at your statements till you get upset, then they can claim the moral and logical high ground.

                          As you can see here they make zero attempt to understand nuances in the debate and simply hold to their agenda.

                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 13 2018, @02:57PM (1 child)

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 13 2018, @02:57PM (#773960) Journal

                            The goal is to keep poking away at your statements till you get upset, then they can claim the moral and logical high ground.

                            Even if that were true, it's a game you can't play. Once again, we have the posts by an AC about mean-ole khallow and how he's keeping us from having fun or something.

                            The problem here is that this is a matter of law not a matter of diplomacy. And bob_super is proposing to corrupt this whole system of law merely to let a powerful, rich person free. Not only that, it works against his very principles. For example, he had this to say about the state of the world:

                            For the last 229 years, most of the powerful have learnt to let enough crumbs fall off the table to help keep their privileges and necks intact. We are reaching another high point of discontent, and the move to misdirect the anger is still working (spearheaded by one of the privileged, can't blame him for thinking it's a genius move). A bit more wage growth is required to buy the peace, since gas is going up and we haven't launched the next war yet.

                            What happens the next hundred times this occurs? How much "discontent" is that going to build up?

                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:35PM (6 children)

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:35PM (#773777) Journal

                          And there I thought we were just having a civil disagreement...

                          We are. But the key problem here is that your "diplomacy" would compromise a key part of Canada and the US's society, its rule of law, merely to placate temporarily some rich person who happens to have some pull with the Chinese government. You can talk about how "subtle and complex" it is, but the bottom line is that you're throwing all that away for nothing.

                          • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:45PM (5 children)

                            by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:45PM (#773783)

                            You must be new at world affairs.

                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 13 2018, @02:20PM (4 children)

                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 13 2018, @02:20PM (#773954) Journal
                              And you just don't seem to get what happens when you create a permanent, corrupt precedent for the sake of an imaginary one-time benefit.
                              • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday December 13 2018, @05:39PM (3 children)

                                by bob_super (1357) on Thursday December 13 2018, @05:39PM (#774041)

                                As I said: You must be new.
                                That precedent was set a long long time ago. Before US presidents set up coups in other countries. Before Truman dropped two A-bombs. Before W ordered people tortured.

                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday December 14 2018, @04:50AM (2 children)

                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 14 2018, @04:50AM (#774274) Journal

                                  That precedent was set a long long time ago. Before US presidents set up coups in other countries. Before Truman dropped two A-bombs. Before W ordered people tortured.

                                  And yet, you still don't seem to get it. You're backtracking on your own beliefs [soylentnews.org], not merely beliefs you don't really care about.

                                  • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Friday December 14 2018, @05:41PM (1 child)

                                    by bob_super (1357) on Friday December 14 2018, @05:41PM (#774478)

                                    Oh, I see. You're confused.
                                    This thread is an acknowledgment of realpolitik.
                                    That doesn't mean I'm happy with it.
                                    Don't mistake pointing out that the powerful will play their games, for not wanting to see many of them have a Battle Royale in retribution for doing so.

                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday December 14 2018, @11:48PM

                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 14 2018, @11:48PM (#774609) Journal

                                      This thread is an acknowledgment of realpolitik. That doesn't mean I'm happy with it.

                                      Cognitive dissonance does that.

                                      Don't mistake pointing out that the powerful will play their games, for not wanting to see many of them have a Battle Royale in retribution for doing so.

                                      Sometimes we have to do things that we don't want to do. I think this is one of those cases.

    • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:14AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:14AM (#773309)

      Movies turned to shit when the (((executives))) started pursuing the Chinese market.

      Hopefully they'll be forced to satisfy Western audiences again.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @08:10PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @08:10PM (#773642)

      The Chinese do take this kind of stuff personally, and if the US doesn't resolve this real quick, US businesspeople, students and tourists are going to be Red Cornered all over the People's Republic.
      ...
      What goes for the US goes for their running dogs, the Canadians, too.

      Told you so.

      No kidding. Is there anyone who did not see this coming? Anyone?

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by legont on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:18AM (1 child)

    by legont (4179) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:18AM (#773269)

    Not just consequences, but "grave consequences".

    Meng was arrested not for violating sanctions, but for lying to banks - fraud.

    Sales of iPhones were halted by a court of law decision based on patent violations by Apple. https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/10/tech/china-iphone-ban/index.html [cnn.com]

    --
    "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:01AM

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:01AM (#773285) Journal

      Sales of iPhones were halted by a court of law decision based on patent violations by Apple.

      Heh. Give both companies are American, asking China to ensure the application of IP laws seems like an example of "with of literal genie, beware what you wish for".

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:19AM (11 children)

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:19AM (#773270) Journal

    Herp-a-derr. This has been a long time coming, and I think it needs to shake itself out, but the US is in a really bad position here...

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:16AM (10 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:16AM (#773293)

      We might not have been fighting a trade war, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a trade war. We were just losing.

      If we don't try, then we continue to lose. Trump might not win, but at least he is trying, which gives him a chance. There is no chance if you refuse to fight.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:16AM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:16AM (#773311)

        The alternative is, of course, Capitalism, whereby people are not forced to pay for services they don't want (such as bombing countries, rebuilding those countries poorly, and throwing people into cages for growing plants in their own homes).

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:23PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:23PM (#773588)

          and forced buying of bs products like insurance to the point where now various industries are dominated by these leaches.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:31PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:31PM (#773594)

          The alternative is not capitalism. The alternatives are anarchism and socialism.

          If Marx and Proudhon can be reconciled, it might be a system worth pursuing. However, it will most certainly not be capitalism. Capitalist property relations are completely unnatural. Socialist and mutualist property relations are more promising.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:02PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:02PM (#773679)

            Capitalism is voluntary interaction.

            If you want socialism, you must built it atop capitalism; you must constrain it to voluntary interaction. Otherwise, it will devolve into dysfunctional bread lines and "re-education" gulags.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:05PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:05PM (#773755)

              Capitalism is NOT voluntary interaction, that is a pipe dream subverted by corporate control.

              Socialism != Communism

              Capitalism and Socialism is the correct way forward, it preserves freedom while providing for society where needed. We do need to start enforcing anti-monopoly legislation, but this might require cooperation between governments.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @02:38AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @02:38AM (#773852)

                You expect a violently imposed monopoly ("government") to save us from a voluntarily grown monopoly (a "corporation"). That's absurd.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:39AM

        by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:39AM (#773335) Homepage Journal

        We were in a Trade War with China for many years. But we had VERY WEAK leaders. Who wouldn't fight for America. Who wouldn't even call it a War. They made so many UNFAIR Treaties. The Postal Treaty, the TPP, so many. China was absolutely killing us on trade. 2017, we lost $375 billion from our Coffers to the Trade Deficit -- incredible!! And China was getting ready to do an even bigger number on us, they call it Made in China 2025. Where so much of the cyber, the modern digital, was going to come from their Factories. They wanted it to be where, you go to buy Cell Phone and the only only ones would be Chinese. Or you buy Computer -- Chinese again. Something our Intel community was very worried about. They told me, that one's going to be a big big problem. Because our Spies use Cell Phone, they use Computer, they use so much Digital. And China could wiretapp them very easily. I said, NO WAY! And no more! I did Tariffs. To put the big squeeze on them. And it worked so fabulously. Like you wouldn't believe. And President Xi of China came to me in the Argentine. At the G-20. Saying, "President Donald, please, no more Tariff!" So we're pausing the Trade War. We could win very easily, we're doing Pause. Otherwise known as Peace. It's not Peace. But, it's much better than what we had. It's something nobody expected. And, nobody else could do. I did it. I'm very honered to be the only guy that could do it. Because I have the very special temperament. Also known as Presidential. You're welcome!!

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bob_super on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:14PM (2 children)

        by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:14PM (#773578)

        China was winning because Capitalism doesn't care about slave labor or unpleasant regimes.
        The Chinese could build stuff, and build stuff cheap. Using the Chinese also meant access to the giant Chinese market.
        All that meant Profits.
        Profit is king. US executives won the economic war for China.
        China just provided infrastructure, loose regulations, and cheap labor. US/Euro companies rushed in, because that's what Capitalism told them to do.

        You want to win that war ? Make it illegal to transfer manufacturing to a cheaper foreign country, and jail the executives who betray their country for a few quarters of profit.

        "forced technology transfers" is absolute bullshit. It's "tell me your secrets if you want my market". No gun-to-the-head ultimatum, just an offer greed short-sighted people can't seem to refuse.

        China is also spying. But the bulk of what they got, they didn't have to fight for, it was offered to them. And the traitors who delivered the goods got paid handsomely.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:41PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:41PM (#773599)

          "forced technology transfers" is absolute bullshit. It's "tell me your secrets if you want my market". No gun-to-the-head ultimatum, just an offer greed short-sighted people can't seem to refuse."

          i hate to agree with you, but i've been saying this since i heard this whiny line from brainwashed "americans" (i didn't know the propaganda networks had been talking about it for a while).

          how can thinking person blame the chinese? at least their government is trying to work in their country's interest. they simply said, "you can have access to our cheap workers but you have to give us the ability to produce this shit ourselves in the future". those bastards! uhh, that should be a demand of every worker and consumer, much less a benevolent dictatorship or whatever the hell they have over there. as for americans, there's nothing fucking patriotic about being a stupid, lazy slave who funds the destruction of humanity by buying closed source, patent encumbered shit.

          i can barely sleep at nights b/c i'm so busy crying for the suited whores who took all the jobs overseas...and i'm a libertarian, free market capitalist as far as i can tell with my largely non-existent economics education. basically, i'm pro individual freedom. if you want to self organize as a commune, or socialist coop, or a corp that's your business, but don't use government to try and tell me what to do. i reserve the 2A for that. Either way, these crony capitalist whores make me sick. if you're a free market capitalist who is not so worried about nations then just be honest and say so. don't whine about how it's not your fault because the mean ol' chinese made you be a decent human being for a change. if you gave a shit about the country you could have spent the money and automated here. at least we'd have an advanced economy to show for our callous disregard for the nation's workers.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:08PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:08PM (#773683)

          Contrapositively:

              slavery => (individual <= collective)

  • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:26AM (2 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:26AM (#773271) Journal

    So, to punish America Chinese companies are banning iPhones, which are manufactured in China and employee scads of Chinese workers?

    I don't think they thought that through.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 5, Touché) by vux984 on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:35AM

      by vux984 (5045) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:35AM (#773274)

      So the chinese will buy any other smartphone... which is made in China, by the same employees, on their next shift. I think they've thought it through just fine.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:30AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:30AM (#773399)

      Chinese government doesn't give a fuck about Chinese workers. Much like the US in that respect.

  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:43AM (10 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:43AM (#773278) Journal

    I don't think anyone on this forum is surprised. The question is, whether Washington and it's allies have thought this through. Who has the power, and the stamina, to play this game to it's end? Do we have the willingness to make a few sacrifices?

    Bear in mind that we've spent the past few decades willingly giving China our trade secrets, technology, and even equipment in many cases, to challenge us today. Most business people will want to fold as soon as their quarterly profits look weak.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:48AM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:48AM (#773282)
      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:58AM (3 children)

        by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:58AM (#773284) Journal

        In an interview with Reuters, Mr. Trump said he would consider intervening in her case. “Whatever’s good for this country, I would do,” he said.

        Sounds like we don't have the willingness, maybe.

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:17AM (2 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:17AM (#773294) Journal
          Sounds like Trump is indicating that the arrest may be politically motivated too.
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:44AM (1 child)

            by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:44AM (#773337) Homepage Journal

            Maybe it was. And maybe it wasn't. Who knows? Who really knows?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:27PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:27PM (#773772)

              One thing is clear, not you!

    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:11AM (4 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:11AM (#773290) Journal

      Do we have the willingness to make a few sacrifices?

      Depends. Do you volunteer? I'd be willing to sacrifice you but it's so much better if it comes from inner conviction.

      (my point: suppose that "I" in the phrase above is "US DoJ" - the ones that issued the request for arrest)

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:53AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:53AM (#773303)
        That's the free country problem. The volunteer has to volunteer willfully. In China (see the article) volunteering is mandatory, and refusniks will be heavily fined.
      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:04PM (2 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:04PM (#773460) Journal

        LOL, while you were watching for someone to step forward, all the rest of us took five steps back. It's just you on the front line now.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:11PM (1 child)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:11PM (#773722) Journal

          Careful with that step back, at the rate you'll be asked to volunteer and without that wall, you may end up in Mexico (grin)

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:09PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:09PM (#773757)

            Karma is a bitch :D

            at least that is what those LoL incels keep saying

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:07AM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:07AM (#773287)

    But you have a leverage. Confiscate all Chinese bought properties in Hongcouver.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:57AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:57AM (#773304)
      Do you really want China to confiscate all our factories on their land? They'd do that in a millisecond.
      • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @07:57AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @07:57AM (#773358)

        Invalid form key: 0jk1zvN0AZ

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:22PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:22PM (#773586)

        None of the factories in China (unless some are currently foreign owned after the changes to corporate ownership they implemented or discussed recently came to pass) were more than 49 percent foreign owned, meaning they wouldn't be taking anything a foreigner actually properly owned, and with 51 percent voting rights most corporate takeovers or oustings are possible.

        Having said that, forcing reciprocal agreements with China should be mandatory and retroactive. If china only allows 49 percent foreign ownership, then force chinese citizens with assets in Canada/America/EU to follow the same disadvantageous rules there. By doing so, and putting Chinese elites on insecure financial footing, you will see a lot more of them either running back to china, or pushing for reforms to help China better acclimate itself into the international ownership structure, thus making it a larger part of the globalized economy.

  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:48AM (16 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:48AM (#773338) Journal
    From the article "How Meng Wanzhou's Arrest Might Backfire" (link above), we have this observation:

    the rule of law works well only when tempered with a high degree of discretion

    Let's look at it in context:

    While guilt remains undetermined, evidence does indicate there were ostensibly reasonable grounds for Meng’s arrest, namely the possibility that she helped create a shell corporation to evade anti-Iran sanctions. But the procedural normality of the arrest is precisely what scares me. There are so many international laws, and so many are complex or poorly defined, and there are a couple hundred countries in the world. Arguably most multinational corporations are breaking some law in some manner or another, and thus their senior executives are liable to arrest. If I were a top U.S. tech company executive, I would be reluctant to travel to China right now, for fear of retaliation.

    In the longer run, bringing charges against Meng is likely to accelerate the division of the world into two competing systems of law, technology and commerce — namely those of China and the U.S. That will encourage international relations to develop along the dimension of power — what can you get away with? — rather than law or orderly cooperation. The West’s dirty little secret is that the rule of law works well only when tempered with a high degree of discretion.

    In other words, because we have a country which is ruled by power rather than law, we need to compromise rule of law with an ample helping of "discretion" (which would not be necessary at all, if the target didn't have substantial economic and political muscle) and avoid a conflict which already exists - the rule of power in China versus the rule of law in the developed world. The cognitive dissonance of this cowardice is interesting.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @07:13AM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @07:13AM (#773343)

      People are afraid of a nuclear war, which is the end result of any war between nuclear powers. That is called being smart not coward. The truth of the matter is that there are a large number of people who are living in incredibly gifted lands but they are being slowly decimated because they are not industrious. I am talking about colonialism, of course. This is how West rose. China has taken it to the next level where the Chinese are willing to make self-sacrifices to in the competition to become industrious, and the West isn't.

      In related news, an American decided to contact a tribe in Indian ocean which is banned activity by Indian government. Wonder what would have happened if the tribe hadn't killed him and instead he got arrested.

      In yet another news, an American citizen shot dead a Pakistani citizen on the open road but couldn't be arrested due to USA's clout.

      In yet another news, Osama was killed without authorization from Pakistan.

      The "discretion" already exists - you don't have rule of law. The question is, do you think sacrificing what makes West great is cowardice?

      It is almost as if looking into the future and seeing white terrorists wandering around the nuclear desert of America planning to bring down the Chinese infidel and restore Western values.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:53PM (2 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:53PM (#773452) Journal

        People are afraid of a nuclear war, which is the end result of any war between nuclear powers. That is called being smart not coward.

        The key word is "afraid". And there were plenty of wars between the US and USSR, fought by proxy powers, that didn't end in nuclear war. Not saying it's a great idea, but just noting that even in worst case, the fear is overblown.

        The truth of the matter is that there are a large number of people who are living in incredibly gifted lands but they are being slowly decimated because they are not industrious.

        And those people would be?

        China has taken it to the next level where the Chinese are willing to make self-sacrifices to in the competition to become industrious, and the West isn't.

        China has to in order to survive. But as they get wealthier, they'll get less interested in self-sacrifice.

        In related news, an American decided to contact a tribe in Indian ocean which is banned activity by Indian government. Wonder what would have happened if the tribe hadn't killed him and instead he got arrested.

        In other words, his status as "American" didn't protect him from the laws of the locals. Meanwhile, if he had been arrested by India, he likely would have been appropriately punished. Nor is this "related news".

        In yet another news, an American citizen shot dead a Pakistani citizen on the open road but couldn't be arrested due to USA's clout.

        Found the story [eurasiareview.com] (which notes that the victims came up on the American in a typical attack approach). Meanwhile a number of Americans have been murdered, kidnapped, etc with similar lack of consequence (here [cbsnews.com], here [cbsnews.com], here [dailymail.co.uk], and here [wikipedia.org]. Maybe this supposed immunity of Americans is just due to Pakistan not enforcing well its laws on murder than the nationality of the murderer?

        In yet another news, Osama was killed without authorization from Pakistan.

        Stupid thing to say. Was the attempt to capture/kill Hitler by the Soviets authorized by the German government? Why would the US wait for authorization before killing a military target protected by the host country? Here, there's evidence that bin Laden was protected by Pakistani intelligence (working with the local tribes allied with Al Qaeda) which has often worked at cross-purposes with the rest of the Pakistani government. So not telling Pakistan means not telling the people protecting bin Laden. It's standard intelligence 101 - don't tell your foes what you are about to do. That's quite legal, you know.

        The "discretion" already exists - you don't have rule of law. The question is, do you think sacrificing what makes West great is cowardice?

        Uh huh. Pakistan's problems with rule of law is not a US problem.

        It is almost as if looking into the future and seeing white terrorists wandering around the nuclear desert of America planning to bring down the Chinese infidel and restore Western values.

        One can dream, amirite? I wonder why people imagining all these bad things, seem so hopeful about it?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:30PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:30PM (#773593)

          The truth of the matter is that there are a large number of people who are living in incredibly gifted lands but they are being slowly decimated because they are not industrious. I am talking about colonialism, of course.

          Reading is hard, I know. Why read or use brain when you can start an argument like a retard.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:53PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:53PM (#773706) Journal
            You still haven't said who those people are. I can read a whole lot better than I can mindread.
    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:13AM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:13AM (#773378)

      Nobody accuse Canuckistan for their "principles".

      Also, Air Canada is garbage.

      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:23AM

        by Gaaark (41) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:23AM (#773398) Journal

        *Nobody accuse Canuckistan for their "principles".*

        Now try typing a real sentence.

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:30PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:30PM (#773694)

        I flew AC not long ago, and being that it is a Canadian national company, they have to make all the announcements in English and French.
        The pilot completely butchered the French announcements with a broad Canadian English accent and apparently trying to read from a provided French script.
        I thought all Canucks had to learn both French and English in school.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:19PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:19PM (#773763)

          Haha, a common misconception. Canadians are required one alternate language to their native French or English, the 2nd language requirement is Moose [wikipedia.org].

          I think we've got it much easier here in the US, only one extra language requirement in most states and the only PERL interaction is with old farts who clutch them so hard no one else needs to worry.

    • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:33AM (5 children)

      by shortscreen (2252) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:33AM (#773393) Journal

      Rule of law works well when legislators mind their own jurisdiction and take their jobs seriously. The US fails on both counts.

      US sanctions are mostly a childish attempt to harm political enemies. It's the same as bible-belt states passing arbitrary restrictions on abortion clinics. They haven't been able to ban them but they still want to make things difficult for the dirty fornicators and abortion doctors so they pass some BS laws out of spite, with no pretense of serving order or justice. (Or for another example, see CA's recent boardroom gender law that they passed "to send a message")

      Besides, the US shouldn't be crying "rule of law" to anyone unless they are ready to round up their own war criminals for extradition.

      • (Score: 2, Disagree) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:30PM (4 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:30PM (#773447) Journal

        US sanctions are mostly a childish attempt to harm political enemies.

        Political enemies who have been trying to get nuclear weapons and have a long history of bad behavior. The analogy breaks down at this point.

        • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:27PM (3 children)

          by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:27PM (#773592)

          "Hey, what makes you think you should be trying to get weapons to counter our constant threats?"

          "bad behavior" is pretty cute, coming from Americans talking about Iran.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:52PM (2 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:52PM (#773704) Journal

            "Hey, what makes you think you should be trying to get weapons to counter our constant threats?"

            It's certainly not the many years of economic sanctions.

            "bad behavior" is pretty cute, coming from Americans talking about Iran.

            Remember the Shah of Iran was sandwiched between two other shitty governments. US can't take the blame for it all.

            • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:40PM (1 child)

              by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:40PM (#773740)

              >> "Hey, what makes you think you should be trying to get weapons to counter our constant threats?"
              > It's certainly not the many years of economic sanctions.

              Imagine swapping places, with Iran teaming up with the neighbors to punish the US for refusing to drop its silly non-religious constitution and stop its support for Israel, supporting groups in Canada trying to overthrow the US government, and having a history of having successfully burnt the white house.
              I can hear our 2nd amendment supporters rubbing their guns.

              >> "bad behavior" is pretty cute, coming from Americans talking about Iran.
              > Remember the Shah of Iran was sandwiched between two other shitty governments. US can't take the blame for it all.

              "sandwiched" is an interesting way of putting it.
              What would the current government of highly-educated briefly-democratic Iran currently be, if the US hasn't gotten involved ?

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:53PM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:53PM (#773749) Journal

                Imagine swapping places, with Iran teaming up with the neighbors to punish the US for refusing to drop its silly non-religious constitution and stop its support for Israel, supporting groups in Canada trying to overthrow the US government, and having a history of having successfully burnt the white house.

                You don't get why Iran suddenly had troubles with the neighbors? They stole a bunch of oil infrastructure in the first place.

                "sandwiched" is an interesting way of putting it. What would the current government of highly-educated briefly-democratic Iran currently be, if the US hasn't gotten involved ?

                It'd probably look much the same. The biggest potential difference would be whether it was a territory of Iraq or the USSR.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @12:05PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @12:05PM (#773411)

      In other words, because we have a country which is ruled by power rather than law, we need to compromise rule of law with an ample helping of "discretion" (which would not be necessary at all, if the target didn't have substantial economic and political muscle) and avoid a conflict which already exists - the rule of power in China versus the rule of law in the developed world.

      Well, only those laws where you try to tell other sovereign countries what they can and cannot do. China isn't going to give a shit about laws that are only applied domestically.
      So tell me, why the hell should the USA have the right to tell China and Iran that they cannot trade?

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:04PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:04PM (#773462) Journal

        So tell me, why the hell should the USA have the right to tell China and Iran that they cannot trade?

        The US doesn't. China and Iran already trade. What the US does is mandates that US businesses can't be involved in such trade. Here, the problem is that there was fraud. Rather than use non-US banks not subject to US law, Meng Wanzhou committed fraud in order to get a US bank to work directly and illegally with a business engaged in trade with Iran.

        And Chinese government is notorious for on-the-fly decisions about what is legal or illegal, often dependent on what they can take at the time.

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