The United States warned Turkey against moving ahead with plans to buy a sophisticated Russian missile defence system that the Pentagon believes would threaten its advanced F-35 fighter aircraft.
The State Department made the remarks on a day when the head of US European Command spoke to politicians on Capitol Hill and said Turkey should reconsider its plan to buy the S-400 from Russia this year.
"We've clearly warned Turkey that its potential acquisition of the S-400 will result in a reassessment of Turkey's participation in the F-35 programme, and risk other potential future arms transfers to Turkey," said deputy spokesman Robert Palladino on Tuesday.
The US agreed to sell 100 of its latest fifth-generation F-35 fighters to Turkey and has so far delivered two of the aircraft. But Congress last year ordered a delay in future deliveries.
[...] The S-400 can track a large number of potential targets, including stealth targets such as the US F-35 fighter jet. Other advantages included its high mobility, meaning it can be set up, fired and moved within minutes.
Related Stories
Ankara has gone ahead with its purchase of the Russian defence system despite threats of US sanctions.
Ankara received its first supply of S-400 missiles in July, despite a warning by the United States about possible sanctions. The acquisition of the highly-advanced air defence system has led to a standoff between Turkey and its NATO allies, especially the US.
[...] The modular S-400 is seen as one of the most advanced missile systems in the world, capable of tracking several targets simultaneously and ready to be fired within minutes.
The US has repeatedly said that the Russian system is incompatible with NATO systems and is a threat to the hi-tech F-35 fighter jets, which Turkey is also planning to buy.
Washington has said Turkey will not be allowed to participate in the F-35 programme because of the Turkey-Russia deal.
The US has strongly urged Turkey to pull back from the deal - the first such move between a NATO member and Russia - warning Ankara that it will face economic sanctions under the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act if it goes ahead with the purchase, reportedly costing more than $2bn.
So far, however, Ankara has refused to give in to US pressure, insisting that choosing which defence equipment to buy is a matter of national sovereignty.
Previously: US Warns Turkey Not To Buy Russian S-400 Missile System
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @05:51PM (9 children)
Isn't this the same "advanced" F-35 that hasn't flown a single combat mission and works less well than other planes like the F-22 while costing something like 4 times as much as those other planes? I'm not fan of Erdogan, but I understand him not being excited about shelling out huge gobs of money for a plane that doesn't work.
And I'm really not a fan of Lockheed's game of "This time it doesn't suck, we promise" either.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday March 06 2019, @05:55PM (4 children)
Hopefully now that McCain is dead we can drop this F35 foolishness. He is the primary reason we went with the 35 instead of the 22 even after we knew the 22 would be cheaper and better in production and combat.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:17PM (1 child)
Yeah, but some critical part of the F-35 is manufactured in a key congresscritter's district! That's way more important than whether the planes are any good.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Immerman on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:07PM
When we're the only military superpower in the world? Pretty much yes. Most of our military spending for a long time has had far more to do with enriching corporations and politicians than providing any significant increase in security. We're way past the point of diminishing returns, spending as much on our military as the next 20 (I think) largest militaries combined - the overwhelming majority of which are our allies.
(Score: 3, Informative) by bob_super on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:32PM (1 child)
> the primary reason we went with the 35 instead of the 22
Doesn't compute.
The 22 is significantly more expensive per hour, because of older stealth tech and twin powerplants.
The 22 range is limited, and it can't take off on a dirty runway.
The 22 is the best air superiority fighter. The 35 has to survive while doing bombing and now even CAS jobs.
Not the same missions - two separate massive wastes.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @11:11AM
We'd be better off just spinning up a new run of A-10s. For the price of other close air support planes they are without equal. And given that they only go in when air superiority is achieved, the only real threat would be hidden ground based targets like the S-400, which wouldn't take long to be dealt with by either ground forces, or the swarms of A-10s we could afford in place of a single F-35.
Furthermore last I checked their cost to operating is much lower than almost any other currently fielded plane, and given their survival odds in the field, other than avionics upgrades, and maybe adding another layer of flight surface control redundancy thanks to modern electronics and manufacturing (in addition to hydraulics, and cable if they have them) they could have a return rate even under critical damage that no other plane has or had.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:03PM
Yes, it was a stupid idea when they came up with it and it is even stupider now that they've actually built them.
The US isn't in a position where air superiority is an issue or even likely to become an issue. Having several different kinds of planes covering the needed tasks would have been more cost effective and likely more reliable as well.
(Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:50PM
"Advanced" like: My boss advanced me some of my paycheck even though I haven't done the work yet.
(Score: 2) by NewNic on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:45PM
The cost of those F35s just increased fourfold:
https://about.bgov.com/news/stagnant-f-35-reliability-means-fewer-available-jets-pentagon/ [bgov.com]
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @11:19PM
Yeah, and Turkey already has two, so the Russians can strip-mine them for anything they actually find of interest if Turkey cuts a deal.
Geography is the sole reason Turkey's still in NATO anyway.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by deimios on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:08PM (16 children)
The S-400 must be really good if the US is against it.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:33PM
We just want to put our Jupiter missiles back in
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:36PM (7 children)
Well, it's at least "good enough". It's a little hard to understand the opposition to Turkey acquiring it. If the S-400 has capabilities that our missiles don't have, then we ought to encourage Turkey to get a bunch - and give a couple to us for research purposes. We should always be looking for opportunities to study what a potential enemy is doing.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:39PM (6 children)
I assume the US already has some, tested them, and discovered that the F-35 has no defense against it.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:52PM (5 children)
I've never looked at them, but you need not go very far out on a limb to guess that the S-400 uses a long wavelength radar. We've known for quite awhile that our "stealth" craft are clearly visible on old radars that we consider obsolete. But, Russia never stopped using those radars. They aren't fooled in the least by our fancy aircraft. Let me find some kind of article on it - five year old article here: https://news.usni.org/2014/07/29/chinese-russian-radars-track-see-u-s-stealth [usni.org]
It's a bit like the Emperor who had no clothes. Or, children who cover their eyes, and tell you that you can't see them. The US has blinded itself to the low frequencies, then built a craft that is hard to see at high frequencies, then declares that no one can see their craft in operation. The Russians just shake their heads in wonder. "These are the Americans who defeated the Soviet?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:54PM (1 child)
Low frequency radar breaking stealth* has been publicly known for 20 years, but while it is great for detection it is a poor choice for targeting. Modern AA batteries use Doppler radar to track the plane's wake. Even a StarTrek tier cloaking device can't hide from that.
*Project Aurora was mostly likely research into overcoming this, but it has other problems like a 4000*F heat signature.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 06 2019, @11:25PM
Just use a couple or more radar stations on the ground to track the target and forget about making the missile that smart; that 'smartness' will be destroyed anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Informative) by fyngyrz on Thursday March 07 2019, @12:16AM (2 children)
...the Soviets pretty much defeated themselves. Their governance and methods of production were corrupt and inefficient; their workers unhappy, unproductive, and poorly treated; they tried to outspend (or at least match) the USA's spending; and they simply ran out of what it took. Boom. Rotting navy, ill-equipped and poorly trained ground forces, cratered economy. Bye-bye, Soviets.
If you want to run a communist country and make it work, pretty sure you're gonna have to root out all the corruption, shovel-leaning*, and kingmaking, and then keep it that way. Might be easier today (or soon-ish) with cameras and AI, but... even so, easier doesn't mean easy.
* There's an old Soviet saying, "you pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work."
--
After my girl turned vegan, it was
like I'd never seen herbivore.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @11:19AM
Communism's failing, whether ingrained in the form of governance, or caused by the people who rose to the top, is what killed it, not the ideals behind it (not unlike the US Constitution, its history to present, and particularly its erosion from the Drug War, Clipper Chip/Anti-Encryption, Columbine, and Patriot Act erosions to our freedoms.)
You can't stop stupid. The USSR fell to it, America may be falling to it, and if China's leadership continues on its current course, it may fall to it too. Assuming the Big Brother singularity doesn't strike first, in which case the plebs will stay forever shackled and unable to learn about nevermind make the moves necessary for organized dissent.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by loonycyborg on Thursday March 07 2019, @02:58PM
Lately I think that communism's so called "inefficiency" is mostly PR story about imaginary world. What killed USSR is Stalin's paranoia, which affected the way leadership is chosen, in favor of "trusted" ones instead of skilled ones which made it work out like hereditary aristocracy in medieval kingdoms. This is in total opposition of how Lenin wanted it work. Whether nation wins or loses is determined by actions of leaders, not by ideology. And both capitalism and communism are horseshit made up by uneducated or too idealistic westerners.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:37PM (6 children)
Or maybe it's just Trump trying to reduce that growing trade deficit and get the Turks to procure an alternative US manufactured missile system instead? Yeah, that's more likely, I suspect. Can't wait for Ergogan's response though; pretty sure there are some Gülenists in the US that are probably about to become bargaining chips since society has apparently sunk back to a level where that's the way things are done these days. "OK, we'll buy your US' built missile system, but we want you to hand over Fethullah Gülen and the following other supporters at the same time..."
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 3, Disagree) by NewNic on Wednesday March 06 2019, @09:15PM (3 children)
What's going on is that some people in the USA are afraid that Russia will get information on how to identify and track the F35s, through the operation of the S-400 missile system. There will undoubtedly be Russian technicians helping with the deployment, operation and maintenance of the S-400 systems. Flying the F35s in the vicinity may allow those Russian technicians to see what the radar profile of the F35 is like.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Wednesday March 06 2019, @09:47PM (1 child)
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by NewNic on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:29PM
I think you answered your own question.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 2) by Bot on Thursday March 07 2019, @12:11AM
>how to identify and track the F35s
My AI says: follow the money.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 06 2019, @11:02PM (1 child)
1) U.S. sells F-35s to Turkey
2) Turkey buys missile battery from Russia
3) U.S. pitches a fit
4) Turkey says "fuck off" and promptly gives one of their F-35s to Russia to take apart, while keeping their missile battery
5) U.S. sends F-35s over Turkey, they promptly get shot down
O NO THEY DI'INT
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 06 2019, @11:04PM
Or would the U.S. not be operating F-35s themselves? Instead substitute "sends F-22s over Turkey; F-22 pilots suffocate and crash; Turkey sends F-22 wreckage to Russia to be studied"
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:11PM (33 children)
Turkey is supposedly an ally, even being a part of NATO. This was justified partly because of location. Turkey guards the Black Sea, cutting the USSR off from the Mediterranean. The U2 and SR71 could fly across the USSR by using Turkey and Norway as bases. Turkey is in a good location for listening stations. So NATO was motivated to overlook any problems with Turkey.
About a century ago, Turkey was led by Ataturk. He somehow managed to drag Turkey out of the 7th century, making it look almost westernized. For a time, you could almost imagine Turkey joining the EU. This is falling apart now, with Turkey sliding back toward the expected behavior of an Islamic country. Remember that in the 1960s in both Iran and Afghanistan, you could find uncovered women in miniskirts living westernized lives. As with those countries, Turkey is headed back to the 7th century.
It is time we recognized that Turkey isn't what we were motivated to imagine it was. Turkey needs to be cast out of NATO. They don't belong there any more than Iran does.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by takyon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:26PM (6 children)
You're 100% right, although we could go a step further and ask whether the U.S. really needs to be in NATO or if NATO needs to exist.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:39PM (3 children)
Yes, U.S. occupation of Europe must be maintained. We are the only thing keeping it from sliding back into feudal warfare. The U.S. is still the indispensable nation for keeping peace on the continent that has been at war since the arrival of the first humans. That you must accept!
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:27PM (2 children)
The U.S is behind most feudal wars these days. There wasn't a time in a long time when the U.S was not at war with someone.
With continued occupation of faraway lands on the back of the U.S Dollar, continuing to defend the U.S Dollar (murdering millions in the process) in order to occupy more places (and their resources) and it goes on and on.
The U.S is a terrorist state. That you must accept!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @02:10AM
*sigh* You make it look like we're the bad guys. You have no idea what's going on.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @01:17PM
That's nothing but a load of crap
Sincerely non-USAnian
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:59PM (1 child)
This is a good question. The answer is that NATO exists to protect US interests in Europe. As long as the US does business in Europe, NATO will continue to exist.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:42PM
Part of those interests is "to wage war together, you need compatible equipment, so follow MY standard, which is easiest if you buy from me".
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:35PM
Turkey sliding back toward the expected behavior of an Islamic country.
Awful lot of non-Islamic countries on that same slide...
(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:44PM (5 children)
It was also extremely important in the early 1960's for a different reason: At the time, nobody had highly accurate ICBMs, so John F Kennedy put shorter-range nuclear missiles there aimed at major Russian cities including Moscow. The Russkies responded by trying to put their shorter-range nukes in Cuba, sparking the Cuban Missile Crisis. A flurry of diplomacy later, and both the US and the CCCP decided to back off.
That said, Ataturk's predecessor, the Ottoman Empire, wasn't 7th century or anything close to it: They had done a lot to modernize with the help of their German allies in the early 20th century, and lasted for a very long time against British attacks during World War I. The people unlucky enough to be landing at Gallipoli were facing machine guns, artillery, rifles, and grenades, not swords and trebuchets.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 5, Informative) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:01PM (4 children)
As a Kiwi who has a Great Uncle buried at Gallipoli those words mean something.
Those Mehmets were as brave as our boys, even if they were as poorly led. It's a real shame they've let their government become what it is now.
The Turks of Gallipoli are lovely people, if you're from an ANZAC country.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:36PM (3 children)
I think there's a decent argument to be made that outside of Gallipoli, the Brits didn't do anything as spectacularly stupid as the Ottomans. For instance, early in the Great War, the Ottomans launched a surprise attack on the Suez Canal after a daring and creative desert crossing ... only to fail to realize that there was such a thing as scout aircraft, and the Brits knew exactly when and where this "surprise" attack was going to hit. Or their attacks in the Caucasus against the Russians where they forgot that armies have a much easier time of it when they are given the food and equipment they need to not freeze to death.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 06 2019, @09:03PM (2 children)
The ANZACs were described as lions led by donkeys, and that probably applied to the Turks as well. I think that's one of the reasons the Young Turks overthrew the Empire after the war. They were well aware how badly the whole deal was run.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @09:41PM (1 child)
Pretty much all sides were beset by severe incompetence among the officers. If you're interested in WWI, I highly recommend The Great War [youtube.com], a Youtube series that covered what was going on 100 years after it happened (e.g. early December 1917 was covered in early December 2017).
Of course, the dumbest move in WWI has to be starting it in the first place!
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:39PM
I have watched many of those videos, and you're right they're great. I particularly like the way they go into detail on the less well know fronts, like Bulgaria, or the Italian campaigns.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:48PM (11 children)
Gee I wonder why they are regressing.
Morons will say "cause Islam herpaderpadoo" and completely ignore that Western nations destabilized their countries, spurred on by an ancient feud between Christianity and Islam. The US has plenty of regressive religious nutjobs who would like nothing better than to implement a theocracy like some of the middle east. The US and others intentionally supported the nutjobs in a vain attempt to control the Middle East. Sadly it completely backfired, the idiots running the show just couldn't comprehend that actually supporting freedom and democracy would be better for humanity. Oh the irony.
This does not absolve the Islamic nutters, but don't pretend it is some problem inherent with Islam. The Christian Bible has plenty of its own nasty shit, yet people like The Mighty Buzzard are able to use their brains to parse out the good bits and (hopefully) not go literal witch hunting. Y'know, something the US did not too long ago. As you pointed out it is possible for the Middle East to join the modern world, but bombing the shit out of innocent civilians will do quite a bit to hinder their advancement. Hard to improve when you're stuck in a loop of fury, and sure is easy for religious nutters to instigate religious violence when people's children are murdered by foreign meddlers.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:01PM (8 children)
Modded up, because few people seem to understand how we have stabbed ourselves in the back, repeatedly, in dealings with the mid-east. We give lip service to democracy, but we'll readily topple a democratic government for failing to fall into line. We don't really give a small damn about democracy, it PROFIT that we really care about.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:13PM (6 children)
<sarcasm>
If a majority of people in a country vote for something the US doesn't like, then can that country really be called a democracy?
</sarcasm>
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:23PM (2 children)
No need to be a dick in response to Runaway's valid post. He didn't even throw in some allegedly ironic racism :D
Democracy in the US is indeed in trouble, but we're far from a true lack of democracy. The current subversion of the system is done through gerrymandering, voter suppression, and good old election fraud.
We need ranked choice voting to replace the electoral college and voting days should be official holidays. I'm sure there are other things to be worked out, but those are the easy ones.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 06 2019, @09:20PM
I agree with ranked choice voting.
I am not trying to be a dick. I did include sarcasm tags which I usually do not do. And I do not intend any disrespect towards Runaway.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by GlennC on Thursday March 07 2019, @12:39AM
FTFY
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:13PM
That has been America's foreign policy for more than a century.
See Guatemala, Iran, Cuba, Chile, Congo, Nicaragua, etc, etc, etc. No sarcasm needed.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:59PM
Well, a decent FTFY might be
This sig for rent.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @04:05PM
Really? Go ahead and look at post 9-11 news. Bush was obsessed with his "approval rating" which is ironic considering how unpopular he'd eventually become. He was obsessed with this because the snakes in his cabinet were using his popularity as a proxy statistic to gauge support for the wars.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:42PM
Oh please! Don't make such a big thing about it. It's common piracy, just like those Johnny Depp movies, only without a plot, or good looking actors. I know everybody likes to think we've evolved, but we haven't. We just add a new facade and refine the makeup.
So yes, destabilization does effectively "salt the earth", it serves a purpose, it keeps the competition out. You don't want them getting fat on our leftovers. Thank Brzezinski [arizona.edu] and Carter for this. It worked, and is working today. Look at the trillions of dollars being kept out of circulation.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:54PM (1 child)
The wars in most of the Middle East, at least since 1900 or so, have relatively little to do with religion, and everything to do with who controls the oil. The US, UK, and most of the rest of the west will ally themselves with despicable monsters of all stripes so long as they allow western oil companies to make boatloads of money off of that natural resource. Why do you think the US continues to prop up the Saudi monarchy after a bunch of Saudis destroyed the World Trade Center and a bunch of Saudi money went to ISIS? Cheap oil and gas. Would it surprise you to learn that one of the major goals of the Obama administration in Syria was to establish pipeline routes from the now-conquered Iraq through Syria and Turkey into Europe?
The only wars in the Middle East where it's reasonable to say religion was a key cause are those involving Israel. However, the religious causes of those fights, at least since 1967, have had more to do with Jewish beliefs about which land God had promised to Israelites and Christian beliefs about the return of Israel being a sign of the Second Coming than with any Muslim beliefs about jihad. The Muslims in the area are generally more mad about the Israelis taking a bunch of their land and their stuff and killing a whole bunch of them than they are about the Israelis being Jewish.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @02:53AM
When the Jews came over they developed the land and settled in previously uninhabited areas / inhabitable swamp land: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)#British_Mandate_era [wikipedia.org]
Both the British and the Ottoman tax survey in the region records aren't disputable: There were a few fishing villages. Some goat herders. A few tourist attractions. But no industry or agriculture. And no exports except the "holy relics" industry and funeral services serving old people coming over to get buried in the holy land. The most commerce the area saw was the ports where ships going from Egypt to Turkey made a pit stop... Literally a grave yard.
Regardless, Muslims and Arabs genocide each other over Sunni vs. Shia or whatever in every region of the Muslim -/+ Arab world so any person that claims a strong opinion with regards to Israel that doesn't have similar opinions towards at least a dozen other nations in the region (and can names them and similarly recite some bullet points) is just a self-deluded antisemitic fool. In the end it's just a tiny regional power that has no economic relations to its neighbors and the Palestinian refugees aren't numerous enough to make any difference on the local geopolitics.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:54PM (3 children)
Turkey has tried to be part of "the west" for decades, but has been continually blocked from EU membership. You don't have to worry about their NATO membership, they'll be leaving on their own soon enough, because they're done with the seat we've offered them at the diplomatic kids' table.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:12PM (2 children)
Today, Erdogan is the biggest obstacle to Turkey becoming an EU member, or being "westernized". If, instead of Erdogan, Turkey had an Ataturk Junior, or Ataturk Lite, Turkey's relations with the world would be very different. Erdogan is busy erasing Ataturk's legacy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:22PM
Turkey was being denied membership to the EU when Erdogan was still learning to read.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:26PM
I remember before Erdoǧan, the obstacle was Turkey's Islamic majority. They would let Ukraine in while not admitting Turkey.
Plus, obviously now the base obstacle would be Cyprus.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:33PM (2 children)
Back a decade ago, Erdogan was doing all the things the West deemed right, trying to make peace with the Kurds, various reforms, etc.
EU told them to fuck off, you are "Asians".
Finally, Erdogan turned 180, and he is what he is today, and Turkey is what it is today.
Even the progressive-minded Turks have difficult time arguing against anti-West turn of the government, given what EU did to the Turks despite all the effort the Turks put in to get accepted.
Even Mutafa Kemal might have told the EuroPEONS to fuck off by now.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bob_super on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:54PM (1 child)
> EU told them to fuck off, you are "Asians".
The people of Europe were saying "Fuck off, You are too many / too muslim / too poor", foremost.
The bureaucrats had put Turkey into a lot of paperwork, and were arguing that cementing their democracy and honoring the EU's commitments meant that the integration process should start. I know people who voted against the EU constitution because it opened the door (eventually) to Turkey.
The politicians, especially after the backlash which followed the integration of Eastern Europe, just stalled long enough for an Erdogan to come and make their job easier.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @11:03PM
"Too poor" is bullshit. EU accepted Bulgaria and Romania, much poorer economies, of similar Balkan culture.
Turks are nothing if not proud. Despite all the bending-over-backward they did, EU humiliated them. The outcome was inevitable.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @11:30PM
Send the motherfucking S-400 to the US, pronto. We will pay double.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @06:07AM
The US advising against it must be the best recommendation a missile system could get.