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posted by martyb on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:12AM   Printer-friendly
from the at-least-the-House-and-Senate-agreed-on-something dept.

breitbart.com/politics/2019/03/15/donald-trump-vetoes-attempt-to-block-national-emergency

President Donald Trump vetoed a bill designed to block his emergency declaration at the Southern Border on Friday, in a ceremony at the White House.

“Today, I am vetoing this resolution,” Trump said. “Congress has the freedom to pass this resolution and I have the duty to veto it. And I’m very proud to veto it.”

Also at CBS News, CNBC, and USA Today.


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:37AM (33 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:37AM (#815745) Journal

    I think that phrase describes our government pretty well.

    It IS the province of congress to regulate immigration. I repeat myself here, but congress has failed to perform it's duties for the past 60 years and more. The last time congress acted in regards to immigration was in 1952, with Operation Wetback. Ever since, they have kicked the can down the road, and relegated their tiresome duties to the president. Similarly to the various "War Powers" acts, congress has passed the buck to the executive. In effect, "We don't know what to do, so you just take care of things."

    Dangerous? Yep. Reckless? Yup!

    Suddenly, we have a new crop of idiots in congress, who don't like the president's handling of things. Their response? Try to put the president on a leash? Embarrass the office of the president, as well as the house and senate. Make a laughing stock of the US government, in general. "Donny, you're being naughty!"

    What utter, contemptible, horse shit.

    Every one of those worthless bastards who voted to embarrass the office of the president should be embarrassed over the fact that THEY HAVE FAILED TO DO THEIR PROPER JOBS!

    The worthless asses need to overhaul the immigration system, and streamline immigration.

    Every caravan at the southern border is an indictment of our worthless lawmakers.

    And, we, the American voters, apparently like all of the idiot drama, because we continue to re-elect all the same worthless sons of bitches who have repeatedly failed to do their jobs.

    NOTE: There is nothing partisan in this post. Nothing. Dems, Repubs, Independents, Libertarians, Greens, Communists - every single SOB who has sat in the either house of congress since 1952 has FAILED. Let that filter through your own partisan filters before you comment, people.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:04AM (17 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:04AM (#815751)

      question: why are the caravans failures the US lawmakers? what I see is a bunch of people don't like where they live, and they see another place where they believe they could live better, hence they want to go there. how is this the lawmakers' fault?

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Arik on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:23AM (3 children)

        by Arik (4543) on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:23AM (#815754) Journal
        Because the lawmakers are sending mixed signals, encouraging immigration without providing those who respond with a reasonable process. Also because in some cases, the reason they don't want to live in their home country is because we broke it. "You break it you bought it" remember?

        This is the really crappy thing about our immigration policy. It's not that it's overly restrictive, or overly lax. Some see it as one or the other, certainly, but that's what you expect with any political compromise. But beyond that, it's just not sensible. "Byzantine" and not in a good way. Because, as stated previously, it's been left mostly to executive order and when that fails to cover it it becomes one of bureaucratic precedent and interpretation and inertia.

        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:51AM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:51AM (#815768) Journal

          Bingo. For various reasons, many or even most of our lawmakers actually WANT poor, hungry, miserable people banging at the doors, trying to get in. Many of them exploit those poor hunger people, directly, by employing them as housekeepers, groundskeepers, and other menial labor types. A lot more employ them less directly, in factories, warehouses, and other businesses that they have ownership and/or stock in. The left side of the aisle exploits them for their votes. But, it's probably safe to say that every politico in Washington exploits the hungry bastards in some form or another.

          You can't be angry with those people at the border. Some idiot politician gets on the news today, and promises them that they have some kind of a "right" to work in America. Another gets on television tomorrow and begs them to come here, and vote the other party down. Yet another politicians mouths off about a universal income, and those people who have never held a hundred dollar bill in their lives want some of that. Another runs their head about a fifteen dollar minimum wage, naturally people who work hard for a month to make twenty dollars wants in on it.

          All the politicos send signals, in one form or another.

          I'll go out on a limb here, and say that almost every country south of us would be better off if Americans just STFU, and got on with life. Stop exploiting them, stop interfering in THEIR politics, and a bunch of them would go about the business of making their own countries nicer.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 24 2019, @11:34PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 24 2019, @11:34PM (#819227)

            It has mostly been Republicans (since all the small/medium business owners I've met out here are conservative) but for all their ranting against immigration, they seem to have the most immigrant labor at below market pay, including indentured servitude scams like charging them for lunch in order to cut down their bill for the day.

            I've seen mexicans, russians, and not-illegal tweakers all treated like this.

            For all the talk about not wanting immigration, they seem to like it just fine if they can get cheap slave-like labor to cut their own costs.

            Honestly I might have most respect for them if they just pushed for flat tax rates without exemptions to show they were serious, because the ones I have known are also likely to double-book their income for tax purposes and try and avoid paying anything to the state they don't need to, usually not by legal means.

            Honestly if half of the businesses I've gotten backend views of were to be running everything aboveboard, I am curious how financially well off they would really be, and what effects it might have on what laws they were willing to push to other's detriment.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @02:54PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @02:54PM (#815860)

          It is Byzantine, but there's no reason to change it. I've seen people put up with the uncertainty, capricious process and financial hardship the US immigration process throws at them to get US citizenship.

          Were I trying to get first world citizenship and educated like them, I would try for Canadian citizenship instead. From what I hear the process is well-defined, and educated people are wanted. Plus you probably have the best access to the US out of any other country.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:02AM (11 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:02AM (#815771) Journal

        To address your question more directly than I did in response to Arik:

        Right now, any poor person who has no legitimate claims on the US or anyone within the US, can pack up a hobo knapsack, walk to the border, knock at the door, and he runs something like a 20 or 25% chance of being let in. It all depends on how he answers questions, how pitiful he looks, who listens to his tale of woe, and whether he captures the attention of some bleeding heart liberal media twerp.

        What SHOULD BE happening is, only people with legitimate and obvious asylum claims get in. End of story.

        Oh, you know how many poeple with legitimate asylum claims walk across Mexico, to knock at our doors? ZERO. If they have a legitimate claim, they are required to seek asylum in THE FIRST COUNTRY THAT THEY COME TO.

        If they have some legitimate claim to asylum, and they can't or won't seek asylum in Mexico, then they can just as easily go the other way. The trek to Brazil or *choke* Venezuela works just as well. Alright, forget I mentioned Commiezuela, that's pretty much out of the question. But, Columbia, Bolivia, Ecuador - the list goes on.

        Fact is, there are very close to zero asylum claimants at the border - they are all there for economic reasons.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by fyngyrz on Sunday March 17 2019, @05:27PM (10 children)

          by fyngyrz (6567) on Sunday March 17 2019, @05:27PM (#815960) Journal

          What SHOULD BE happening is, only people with legitimate and obvious asylum claims get in. End of story.

          That's your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it, but I don't agree with you at all.

          I see no problem with people coming here to better themselves, and (hopefully) better our country in the process.

          We had a really good Mexican restaurant here in town up to about a month ago, when government immigration authorities descended upon them (green cards expired? Never had them? No idea...) and that was the end of that. They were hurting no one — there wasn't a Mexican restaurant here before, and now there isn't one again. They weren't taking anyone's jobs. The government, however, definitely took the restaurant away from the community, the taxes the workers paid away from the fed, state and town, the income they put back into the economy away from same, etc.

          So who's really the ones causing a problem here? It sure wasn't the Mexicans operating that restaurant, I can tell you that.

          Wait... I can hear some people thinking "but they were competing with the other restaurants" — yeah, they were, and the other restaurants were competing with each other, too. And still are. Nothing wrong with competition on a level playing field, is there? Was there anything stopping those other restaurants from offering great Mexican (or other) food? No. So no, that's not something you can reasonably lay at the feet of these people. It's also probably somewhat relevant that this wasn't a cheap eatery: the SO and I had ~$100 meals there from time to time (rarely, we're very conservative as far as eating out goes), and found it well worth the money. Great food. It's not like they were a threat to the McDonalds or Subway, or even the (really pretty good) pizza place we have. The fact is, the town lost something really good here. As you say, "End of story."

          One of the things that hardline anti-immigration types never seem to grasp is that things may be much worse for prospective immigrants where they came from, even if the circumstance doesn't rise to "needs asylum."

          Another thing is when they are willing, and able, to do jobs that good 'ol Americans simply refuse to do, one example being picking produce in the fields and orchards. You may want very expensive / rare produce, but I sure don't. They're willing to start at the bottom, or even to stay there to give their kids a chance. I'm perfectly okay with that. Are your kids going to go pick produce if Trump manages to lock down that border to asylum seekers only, as you advocate? Just curious.

          Another thing is that you, and I, and everyone else here is "different" from these people only in that we were born on the "correct" side of an imaginary line in the (literal, in the case of Mexico and the US) sand. It's pretty awful when that gets someone so high up on their horse that they can then write every person on the other side of that imaginary line as not worthy of being given a chance.

          Another thing: I'm descended from immigrants. My ancestors got off a boat from England. No one stopped them and said "you can't come here." That was in 1634, BTW. It's only relatively recently that the whole "only legit asylum seekers" attitude has arisen. Perhaps you might actually look at the history of the country and figure out why you think that's an actual legit stance to take. Unless you're an actual native American (and those folks also immigrated here, though quite some time ago), you're descended from relatively recent immigrants as well. Pot, kettle, black, you know?

          --
          If I could have saved all the money I've
          spent on pizza, I'd spend it on pizza.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @06:00PM (4 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @06:00PM (#815978) Journal

            I was talking about law, actually. International and US law agree about how those "asylum seekers" are supposed to act. They are not, however, actually asylum seekers, but economically disadvantaged people. The US is not legally obligated to help them economically - and I'm not going into morality or ethics here, or we would be pulling in every philosopher and every pretend philosopher recorded in history.

            You disagree with me, which is cool.

            I'm going to try to explain something once again here. I don't dislike, certainly don't hate, Mexicans, or any other Latin/South Americans. As a matter of fact, I like a fair number of them. That, however, is not the point. This is supposed to be a "nation of laws" (I won't go into my contempt for that notion here.) Every lawmaker in Washington, almost all law enforcement, and more than half the civilians in this nation make that claim. A nation of laws. But, the law is openly violated - nay, flagrantly violated, and all those law makers, half of law enforcement, and more than half of the civilians just wink at the violations.

            And, to repeat myself once more, on another theme. All those failed lawmakers who have failed to reform immigration. If the SOB's would do their jobs, and REFORM IMMIGRATION, most of this discussion would be ended. The laws they finally passed may be to my liking, they may be to your liking, they may not be to either your or my liking. But, once the laws were enacted, and put into place, and PROPERLY ENFORCED, the discussion would be over. We wouldn't be arguing about what is legal, who is legal, or why someone should be legal. Our failed politicians are responsible for this current discussion.

            Now, let's back away from the political issue for a moment. Let me ask - do you think that the United States can actually make a dent in the world's poverty, by accepting all the immigrants who wish to enter the United States? Maybe this will change your perspective a little bit:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM1YU-Ni_84 [youtube.com] 9 minutes long
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE [youtube.com] 6 minutes long

            They are both just cold, hard looks at the numbers, with minimal politics or opinion injected.

            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:09PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:09PM (#816072)

              I was talking about law, actually.

              Not this, again! Runaway the lawyer? Ha! What law school did you graduate from Atticus Finch of Arkansaws? What bar were you admitted to, besides the "Dew Drop Inn"? You are just being a racist, Runaway, a Fox News brainwashed racist who denies he's a racist, because of, boarders!!

            • (Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Monday March 18 2019, @02:52PM (1 child)

              by Nobuddy (1626) on Monday March 18 2019, @02:52PM (#816411)

              Can you show us the clause in US law that requires them to stop at the first country they come to? Since we ARE talking about US law here.

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 18 2019, @03:40PM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 18 2019, @03:40PM (#816439) Journal

                You understand that the US is a signatory to a variety of treaties. In effect, if not in fact, those treaties become US law - that is, they guide the US legal system in the disposition of cases involving non-US citizens. https://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain/opendocpdf.pdf?reldoc=y&docid=4bab55da2 [refworld.org]

                Excerpt:

                Section 11
                The concept of first country of asylum
                Introduction: International Standards
                The concept of first country of asylum is defined in Article 26 of the APD:
                A country can be considered to be a first country of asylum for a particular applicant
                for asylum if:
                (a) s/he has been recognised in that country as a refugee and s/he can still avail
                him/herself of that protection; or
                (b) s/he otherwise enjoys sufficient protection in that country, including benefiting
                from the principle of non-refoulement;
                provided that s/he will be re-admitted to that country.
                In applying the concept of first country of asylum to the particular circumstances of an
                applicant for asylum Member States may take into account Article 27 (1).
                It should be noted that Member States are not required to apply the concept of first
                country of asylum, as Article 26 is a permissive provision.1
                  However, in accordance with
                the APD, those Member States which apply the concept are not required to examine
                whether an applicant qualifies as a refugee or for subsidiary protection status, where a
                country which not a Member State is considered as a first country of asylum for the
                applicant pursuant to Article 26.2
                  In other words, the Member State may consider such
                applications as inadmissible.
                Destination countries may have interests in reducing irregular movements. As such, the
                concept of first country of asylum may be seen as a potential deterrent to irregular
                movements by refugees. However, UNHCR notes that the causes of secondary
                movements are manifold and include, among other things, a lack of durable solutions,
                limited capacity to host refugees and a failure to provide effective protection in some
                third countries. Therefore, the assessment of whether a third country does constitute a
                first country of asylum requires a careful and individualised case-by-case examination.

                Bottom line is, Mexico should be bearing a lot of this burden. Mexico instead chooses to use these "refugees" against us.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 19 2019, @01:58PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 19 2019, @01:58PM (#816946)

              These are not easy laws to enforce. If you do the calculations, what costs more; enforcing the laws to the fullest extend and catch every single illigal immigrant or letting some immigrants pass the border? I think Trumps budget is going to be a disaster if he want to catch all the illegal immigrants. It's easier and better for the economy to let them get a job and pay taxes.

              Below is not a reply to something Runaway1956 said, but a generic reply to the people who are concerned about culture:

              I simply don't understand the people who talked about these immigrants somehow destroying american culture. American culture is a plural of the cultures of the world as a country build on migration from the rest of the world. In my country people have the same complaint, but when I ask them what our culture is, they don't even know. If you want to protect your culture, it is not going to help much to be dismissive of strangers. They are not the problem. The problem is that people don't live out their cultural heritage anymore. If you don't care for your own culture by living the traditions, rituals and values. You don't need a stranger to destroy your culture.

          • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @06:24PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @06:24PM (#815994)

            Your immigration didn't work out too well for the locals. You destroyed their culture.

            Not being a leftist, I won't say you need to feel guilty for that. Conquering and destroying is fair game. I will however say that US citizens are now on the receiving end of that kind of thing, with a culture about to be destroyed. You could say it already is destroyed within about 50 miles of the border, give or take dozens of miles and many anomalies.

            It is dumb to just accept the destruction of American culture, even if having slaves again (in your words, jobs "Americans simply refuse to do") would be convenient.

            American culture is clearly superior in most ways. We shouldn't be ashamed to declare that. You are welcome to leave if you disagree. It is not superior from an evolutionary perspective if we just voluntarily roll over and die in the face of invaders.

            We need to fight this a lot harder. Americans caught illegally in Mexico face a decade in prison... that is, in a Mexican prison. Mexico even has an explicitly racist constitution to keep us out. They are fighting, but we are not. They are pushing invaders over the border while rejecting us when we invade. When we catch them, at best it's "oopsies, you should maybe go back we think, pretty please?". We need to instead be making examples out of people. That includes the illegals, anybody to hires them, anybody who rents to them, anybody who fails to report them, any school with them, and so on. Punishments need to be reliably certain to happen. Punishments need to be severe. Here is an idea, since we don't have Mexican prisons and Haiti needs money: outsource imprisonment of these invaders to Haiti.

            • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Monday March 18 2019, @09:14PM

              by fyngyrz (6567) on Monday March 18 2019, @09:14PM (#816628) Journal

              Your immigration didn't work out too well for the locals. You destroyed their culture.

              See, here's the thing about history.

              The bad things, we need to remember so we don't do them, or things like them, again. Such as taking everything from a weaker group, or giving them infected blankets to kill them off, or interning everyone of a particular ancestry, or letting the superstitious infect the legal system, or arbitrarily separating children from their parents, or putting people into involuntary slavery. Etc.

              The good things, we also need to remember so we can do things like them, or better than them, again. Such as having mostly open borders, taking care of the sick and infirm, preventing corporations from dominating an entire market through repressive methods, or not providing for education, or shooting unarmed college students. Etc.

              Having said that, the whole "you should embrace guilt consequent to the sins of your ancestors / parents" thing is utter bullshit. As is the whole "you should claim accomplishment because of the positive actions of your ancestors / parents." We are what we are, not what our ancestors or parents were: that is the entire depth of both our credits, and our demerits.

              TL;DR: I didn't destroy anyone's culture. You may absolutely count on it. However — unlike some — I am cognizant of a pretty good range of history's important lessons.

              --
              The three Functional Retardations:
              traditional, jingoistic, and religious.

          • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:15PM

            by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:15PM (#816092) Homepage

            That's a pretty shitty argument, but then again, I live in Southern California so I don't have to worry about the hypothetical single burrito joint disappearing anytime soon.

            My ancestors, like yours, got off the boat centuries ago (or were native to the continent) but today is a very different reality than 1634.

          • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:18PM

            by darkfeline (1030) on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:18PM (#816127) Homepage

            > Another thing: I'm descended from immigrants. My ancestors got off a boat from England. No one stopped them and said "you can't come here." That was in 1634, BTW. It's only relatively recently that the whole "only legit asylum seekers" attitude has arisen.

            Times change. "Well, back in the day" is a pretty shitty argument.

            > They were hurting no one — there wasn't a Mexican restaurant here before, and now there isn't one again. They weren't taking anyone's jobs.

            I don't think any one individual is qualified to make such an assessment. Even if we were able to assess that this was in fact the case, we simply can't assess every single case of "unlawful presence" and hand out exemptions. There is a process. The process may be flawed. But if you're violating the process and you get caught, of course you're getting deported. Them's the breaks.

            > I see no problem with people coming here to better themselves, and (hopefully) better our country in the process.

            As someone whose parents immigrated here and naturalized legally under merit, I have no problem with this either. Except by anecdotal accounts, many illegal immigrants and so-called asylum seekers are coming strictly to better themselves with zero care about the county. I try to stay out of polarized political arguments since they are just "he says, she says" and even the cited studies on both sides tend to be biased, but from anecdotal evidence through everyday conversation, legal immigrants are the biggest opponents against illegal immigration. They did the hard work to earn their citizenship, so they detest the people who think they can just waltz in and get naturalized through what is effectively pity.

            I wasn't at all surprised that Trump got elected. If you found it surprising, you're part of the reason why Trump got elected. There is a huge proportion of US citizenry who feel like they aren't being heard. Whether or not they're correct, they feel like they are being neglected in favor of immigrants, and they are pissed that as American citizens they are somehow being treated as less important than non-American citizens. I won't talk about whether or not voting for Trump was the right decision for those people, but that's the reason Trump won.

            --
            Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
          • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday March 18 2019, @02:28AM

            by Reziac (2489) on Monday March 18 2019, @02:28AM (#816219) Homepage

            Being required to claim asylum in the first country you come to isn't anyone's opinion; it's a matter of international law. You can look it up.

            --
            And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday March 19 2019, @09:58AM

        by Bot (3902) on Tuesday March 19 2019, @09:58AM (#816876) Journal

        > what I see is a bunch of people don't like where they live, and they see another place where they believe they could live better

        That is what is happening in Venezuela, desperate people fleeing across the border with nothing. The caravans organization, the NGO who own ships that turn off the transponders to pick up migrants in Libya and take them to Italy, the migrants who get saved and given a roof to stay fleeing after a week for a different EU country, the arabs not taking refugees, all those things point at "yugoslavia 2.0, the world is our balkans" instead. The people who should see through this planning, the left, who routinely see globalist conspiracies, fail to see the biggest one, which will give the financial system a good excuse to crash and not give back your money and a good excuse to jail you if you protest, no matter if Islam (another big enemy of the left, literally hitler, if you consider its behavior when dominant) wins or not.

        --
        Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:33AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:33AM (#815756)

      Every one of those worthless bastards who voted to embarrass the office of the president should be embarrassed over the fact that THEY HAVE FAILED TO DO THEIR PROPER JOBS!

      Well, I'd say all 535 members of the House and the Senate have failed to do their jobs, not just the ones who voted their conscience rather than their party.

      As far as the President, he has failed to do his job in a number of ways. For example, he doesn't lead, he tweets. And he doesn't propose legislation, he tweets. And he doesn't work the hill, he tweets. He doesn't put forth thoughtful, responsible dialogue. Instead, he tweets what he hopes become sound bites in an attempt to dominate the news cycle everyday.

      I'd say the President has done more to embarrass himself than anyone in D.C. ever could. And if you think that someone, anyone, has embarrassed the President more than he has embarrassed himself, just wait a little while. He will reclaim that mantle without effort or self awareness.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:53AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:53AM (#815770)

      Let that filter through your own partisan filters before you comment, people.

      Filtering complete. Runaway is still a racist fucking redneck hillbilly of low educational acheivement, and a doo-doo head. Fuck you, Runaway, and the Russian Troll factory that employs you! You are a traitor to the very idea of American! You have lost your way! We have leads on all your posting online, and Mueller is very interested in you contribution to the Trump victory at the behest of your Russian masters. Expect a subpoena very soon, now. You asshole.

      • (Score: 2, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:03AM (1 child)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:03AM (#815772) Journal

        You still have internet access in Venezuela?

        • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @12:35PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @12:35PM (#815821)

          I'll let you know when if the power comes back on.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bradley13 on Sunday March 17 2019, @02:48PM (1 child)

      by bradley13 (3053) on Sunday March 17 2019, @02:48PM (#815857) Homepage Journal

      "congress has failed to perform its duties [to regulate immigration"

      I confess, I really don't get it either. Illegal immigrants simply should not exist, or at least there should be extremely few of them. If the government wants to let all those people in, then make them legal. If the government doesn't want them, then close the border and kick them out.

      Actions like letting them get government IDs and vote, but still considering them to be illegally in the country? That makes absolutely no sense to anyone with a functioning brain. Either they're legal, in which case they are entitled to services and participation; else they are illegal, and hence criminals to be hunted down and expelled.

      Not that Europe is doing a helluva lot better job, with our African illegals. Must be something in the water.

      --
      Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @03:06PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @03:06PM (#815864)

        Until Trump was elected, illegal immigration was a distraction presented to the citizens by the government. In reality, the establishment was ok with it. The democrats, because they hoped for new voters once the amnesty and citizenship path was complete. The republicans, because their 1%er clientele got cheap and compliant labor. The catholic church, because the new Americans would make up for dwindling attendance.

        Well, at least many of the illegals in the US are doing productive work. Your nafris in Europe are selling crap on the street, until they graduate to pushing dope or terrorist attacks.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by RamiK on Sunday March 17 2019, @02:49PM

      by RamiK (1813) on Sunday March 17 2019, @02:49PM (#815858)

      but congress has failed to perform it's duties for the past 60 years and more.

      They didn't neglect it. They deliberately chose to silently support it since it provided a work force without voting rights. Along with outsourcing labor to China it redirected cash flow from poor Americans to Mexicans and Chinese that would otherwise demand labor rights and environmental regulations that eventually lead to socialist movements.

      --
      compiling...
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:22PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:22PM (#816098)

      Similarly to the various "War Powers" acts, congress has passed the buck to the executive.

      Which, since Congress has no Constitutional authority to delegate its warmaking powers to the executive, is completely unconstitutional.

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 18 2019, @02:32PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 18 2019, @02:32PM (#816401) Journal

      > embarrass the office of the president

      If anybody is doing it, Trump is doing it.

      And I don't mean specifically about The Great Wall. I mean about how he (mis)handles everything.

      If he were more respectable I might be more sympathetic.

      Just an opinion.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Monday March 18 2019, @02:50PM (1 child)

      by Nobuddy (1626) on Monday March 18 2019, @02:50PM (#816409)

      illegal immigration is at a long time low. Border crossings are at a long time low. Seems to me they HAVE been doing their job. There is no emergency. If the Republicans truly view this as an emergency, you would think they would have done something while they had a majority in both houses and the presidency for two years. But they didn't. They waited until they lost the House and many seats in the Senate before trying to act.

      Ask yourself why.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 18 2019, @03:42PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 18 2019, @03:42PM (#816440) Journal

        Citations needed. Unless, of course, you are merely parroting what some talking head said on the liberal mainstream media news. Five dead bodies per week in Pima county, Arizona doesn't seem an "all time low".

    • (Score: 2) by DutchUncle on Monday March 18 2019, @09:29PM

      by DutchUncle (5370) on Monday March 18 2019, @09:29PM (#816639)

      It is also the province of Congress to allocate money. Declaring an emergency to speed up processing for an immediate need like natural disaster etc. with the expectation that Congress will follow up on the paperwork is one thing; declaring an emergency to do EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what Congress has just voted on is a very different thing. Also not partisan. Every Representative and Senator who has allowed the Executive to accrue king-like power has FAILED.

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:40AM (28 children)

    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:40AM (#815746) Homepage Journal

    - Socially Isolated Social Group? Check!
    - Charismatic Leader? Check! (sort of anyway)
    - Said charismatic leader as as well Psychotic? Check

    Whenever _I_ find I'm acquiring Followers I check myself in1

    Note that I wrote that early last August:

    It Did.

    --
    Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
    • (Score: 2, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:43AM (22 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:43AM (#815747) Journal

      No one can follow you, MDC. Not only do you march to the beat of a different drum, no one can see where the hell you're marching.

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:22AM (20 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:22AM (#815753)

        If your drum major isn't on the same medication as MDC's you'll never be able to follow him.

        • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:40AM (16 children)

          by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:40AM (#815766) Journal

          Runaway1955 is mainlining the Faux News. Wonder he don't OD, like all his relations on the Oxy. And this is why Fox News has deep-sixed Ex-judge Jeannine, after her islamophobic rant against duly elected American Congresspersons. Without telling anyone. [rawstory.com] Just a "reschedule", and hopefully a vacation from which she never comes back, what with sleeping with the fishes and all. But Fox News is too afraid of their audience, like our dear fluffy intellectual light-weight Runaway, here, so they will not make a public announcement of the fact that they have terminated Donald Trump Judge Genie. Cowards.

          But I predict, and mark my works, Proud Boys and THOTS, the next mass shooting will take place at Fox News. Once Fox News viewers realize they have be betrayed, (of course, Runaway is not capable of such cognition), there will be blood, and people drinking other people's milkshakes, and general unpleasantness, within the alt-right itself. They will turn. They will auto-destruct. If only, they had more guns?

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:53AM (13 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:53AM (#815769) Journal

            Omar needs to choke to death on a pickle, inshallah.

            • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:15AM (12 children)

              by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:15AM (#815775) Journal

              And Runaway needs to follow GW Bush's lead with a pretzel, only with more permanent results. You know this will end badly for you, Runaway? You will be the guy in Pennsylvania, or the guy in NZ, you will end up being Timmy McViegh, or Charles Manson. It is all right there in your head, already. Here is what I suggest: turn yourself in to the FBI. Just show up at the local office, right there at 24 Shackleford West Boulevard, Little Rock, AR 72211, and tell them that you might be a white nationalist terrorist. They will know what to do. And your long mental anguish will be at an end, and you can make friends with the Aryan Brotherhood, in prison.

              • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:23AM (11 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:23AM (#815777) Journal

                You've always had a few cogs loose. It is not I who has a mental illness history, but you. But, there is no need for you to become a burden on the FBI. Call a taxi, or call an ambulance, and go on down to your local hospital. Check yourself in to the looney bin (Where I grew up it was known as "The Fourth Floor") and allow the good doctors, nurses, and orderlies to shove you into the proper padded round room. There, you can contemplate the mysteries of the universe, such as, "How can I piss in the corner of a room that has no corners?" and "I must piss, but I have no hands free to piss with!"

                • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:06AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:06AM (#815787)

                  It is not I who has a mental illness history

                  So true. You only have a single mental illness episode, only one!
                  A life long one, granted, but still a single episode doesn't not a history make.

                • (Score: 2, Disagree) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday March 17 2019, @01:37PM

                  by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday March 17 2019, @01:37PM (#815837) Homepage Journal

                  I never killed anyone.

                  The white supremacists who commit domestic terrorism like have such issues as crystal meth addiction - all the rage in here in Patriot Prayer's Vancouver - but cannot be rightly said to be mentally ill in any way.

                  Good Day.

                  --
                  Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:13PM (8 children)

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:13PM (#816033) Journal

                  MDC is insane, and he still writes better than you and has more basic human decency than you. What the fuck is YOUR excuse? I know which of the two of you I'd rather spend an afternoon with.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:53PM (6 children)

                    Says the woman who advocated extremely cruel and very unusual punishment for the pharma guys this same day. Stones and glass houses, darlin. You're sounding very much like the absolute worst of the people you despise.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 18 2019, @05:40AM (5 children)

                      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday March 18 2019, @05:40AM (#816265) Journal

                      Karma is a bitch. Much worse will happen to them in "Hell" for much longer, to say nothing of what they'll be forced to reincarnate as (hint: I see a lot of babies in the NICU born opiate-dependent).

                      tl;dr: I'm not "nice" and never claimed to be, and if that bothers you, go have an attack of the vapors on yonder fainting couch.

                      --
                      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday March 18 2019, @11:34AM (1 child)

                        *shrug*

                        Like you said, karma is a bitch.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 18 2019, @09:17PM

                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday March 18 2019, @09:17PM (#816629) Journal

                          And so am I :D

                          --
                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday March 18 2019, @11:37PM (2 children)

                        by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday March 18 2019, @11:37PM (#816705) Homepage Journal

                        Cheyne-Stokes Respiration while awake, in the absence of cardiac disease, increased intracranial death nor imminent death.

                        But _with_ Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, thirty years of Psychogenic Polydipsia and my entire life - 55 years - of Circadian Rhythm Disorder, Advanced Sleep Phase Syndrome.

                        Also childhood Apneac Diving Breathhold Training, Mercury Vapor Inhalation Poisoning, decades of self-induced Insomnia and of course Bipolar-Type Schizoaffective Disorder.

                        PubMed yields no insight, but I'll try Google Scholar this evening.

                        I don't think I mention my Syncope yet. I'll add that after I eat supper.

                        --
                        Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
                        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 19 2019, @12:33AM (1 child)

                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday March 19 2019, @12:33AM (#816728) Journal

                          I've actually been thinking about you and your case a fair amount, and am completely utterly baffled. My first guess was some sort of seizure disorder well beyond TLE, maybe with involvement in Broca's Area among other places, perhaps with the pons or other parts of the lower brain involved as well considering the horrible agonal breathing you're suffering. And that it may be secondary to an actual physical lesion (mini-bleeds? Transient ischemia?) rather than just electrical glitches.

                          Have they done an EEG workup for you at any point? Also, have you ever had a fainting spell brought on by severe substance use or any of its sequelae? I am thinking specifically of a case of hyponatraemia here, especially if you were improperly resuscitated with too high a concentration of saline and may have suffered some demyelinization.

                          --
                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                          • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Tuesday March 19 2019, @03:53AM

                            by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Tuesday March 19 2019, @03:53AM (#816782) Homepage Journal

                            I'll get my Neurologist's [peacehealth.org] report on April 1st, mercifully but two weeks from now.

                            That the film "Lorenzo's Oil" depicted his parents convening a world-wide conference of the - tragically few - researchers into his condition inspires me to convence such a conference of my very own!

                            How Cool Could That Be?

                            To start with, I'll compile a curated link-list [soggy.jobs] of all their homepages, their CVs and their C-S papers, then I'll snail them all dead trees with a two-page writeup on what I know so far - for example, I don't get Syncope if I'm well-rested! - then ask them to prepare travel grant applications that they may attend. I'll send out a call for papers after reading _all_ their abstracts as well as those _complete_ papers that may yield further insight.

                            Want to come yourself? While my hypothetical Lear Jet is but a twinkle in my eye, likely I _can_ cover your travel and lodging expenses.

                            Portland is _beautiful in the warmer times of the year, likely late this Summer, so as to not interfere with their teaching.

                            Likely at Oregon Health & Sciences University [ohsu.edu].

                            I'll reply to your other items after I've had me some fresh, hot, strong, black, bitter coffee.

                            Much as I like my women.

                            --
                            Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
                  • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday March 18 2019, @11:29PM

                    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday March 18 2019, @11:29PM (#816702) Homepage Journal

                    Quite likely I can pick you up in my Lear Jet [guacamoleroad.com] towards the end of Summer.

                    +1 (971) 386-3996 Voice/Text/WhatsApp

                    --
                    Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:01AM (1 child)

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:01AM (#815785) Journal

            Wonder he don't OD,

            Umm... you should remember Mithridates VI, a jolly fellow he was

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:04AM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:04AM (#815774) Journal

          I only have a drum corporal.

          • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:57AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:57AM (#815808)

            That's your problem, alright. I hear you can hire a drum major on soggyjobs.com

        • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:47AM

          by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:47AM (#815806) Homepage Journal

          If you read My Deepest Fear [warplife.com] as you "Get In Character", in no time at all you will as well Get Admitted

          Don't Say I Never Did Nothin Fer Ya!

          --
          Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:36AM

        by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:36AM (#815795) Homepage Journal

        Consider Solar Photons:

        They require eight thousand years to emerge from the core to the photosphere at which point they fly free as the photosphere isn't ionized, and so transparent.

        --
        Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday March 17 2019, @03:10PM (4 children)

      Socially isolated? Man, get your meds checked. No possible twisting of the phrase "fringe minority" can make it cover half the nation. If you're not meeting them and think they're the socially isolated ones, you've got it exactly backwards.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:27PM (2 children)

        by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:27PM (#816074) Homepage Journal

        Half the nation? His approval rating hasn't been above 40% since he was elected.

        More on topic, my asshole congressman, Rodney Davis, voted "no" on the bill to stop Trump. The bastard has been voting against our own state since he was first elected, but the idiots here in my district re-elected him last year. Six more years of the anti-Illinois Illinois congresscritter.

        --
        mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:54PM

          49% last week. Care to try again?

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:43PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:43PM (#816158)

          It seems you've been voting against your own interest. (probably dozens of votes -- hey, democrats in Chicago)

          Despite your failure to appreciate them, Rodney Davis and Donald Trump are fighting for you.

      • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday March 18 2019, @11:32PM

        by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday March 18 2019, @11:32PM (#816704) Homepage Journal

        Not the whole white house, just his political appointees.

        Not his base by any means.

        --
        Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Arik on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:03AM (37 children)

    by Arik (4543) on Sunday March 17 2019, @08:03AM (#815749) Journal
    I'm virtually always in favor of the veto. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt anytime it's invoked (as I would give an override as well.)

    I'm not in favor of the border wall. Trump's not the first person to propose it, not likely to be the last, but for better or worse he made it a signature of his campaign so he has indeed a *duty* to attempt to implement it.

    Unfortunately, if built it will be expensive, cause unintended harm, and ultimately be ineffective at its professed purpose as well.

    So I applaud the veto, but I'm also looking forward to an override.

    As a bonus, should this work out as I hope, the precedent could well impede moves by a future executive of either party.

    Good political news is so rare, but this brought a smile to my face.
    --
    If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
    • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:08AM (12 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:08AM (#815763)

      Even using the most expensive wall cost estimate, we'd break even in two years due to the expense of handling illegal aliens. After two years, it's just a win... or we could be silly and rebuild it every two years. Again, that is with the high estimate for cost. More likely, we could do a new wall every year and come out ahead.

      We've built a couple times that much wall just along interstate highways. It is supposed to reduce noise. Notice also the interstates themselves, which are far more costly than walls. (must be smooth, need more land, etc.)

      The shutdown cost more than the wall.

      By shutting down the war in Syria, Trump saved more than enough to build the wall.

      Walls have been effective all over the world, even in modern times. Israel has two walls that work fine. Walls have reduce the migrant crisis problem in southeastern Europe. Mexico has a wall on their other border. Saudi Arabia has one. We're paying for Jordan to have a wall.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Arik on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:20AM (10 children)

        by Arik (4543) on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:20AM (#815764) Journal
        "Even using the most expensive wall cost estimate, we'd break even in two years due to the expense of handling illegal aliens."

        IF that's true it's only because we've made that 'handling' ridiculously expensive.

        And you're assuming it's effective. It won't be. A 10' wall just means increased demand for 12' ladders. And digging machines.

        But in a sense it will be effective. Other forms of wildlife, some of them at least, will have difficulty. It might actually drive a few species extinct.

        It's ridiculous, and it's theatre. They've got the entire border under 24/7 surveillance already. And 100 miles inland.

        The last bit is what you should be worried about.
        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by physicsmajor on Sunday March 17 2019, @05:15PM (5 children)

          by physicsmajor (1471) on Sunday March 17 2019, @05:15PM (#815955)

          You're pretty ignorant about the border, friend. The claim that it's already under 24/7 surveillance exposes it hilariously.

          A physical barrier is imperfect, but serves a similar propose as the locks on your home: deterrence. Lockpicks are available, sure, but you still have locks don't you? So the least common denominator can't walk in any time. This is the purpose a wall serves. It does not have to be perfect to dramatically ameliorate the problem.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:27PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:27PM (#816102)

            A physical barrier is imperfect, but serves a similar propose as the locks on your home: deterrence.

            False analogy. Houses have ceilings and floors, and are much smaller than the southern border. Thus, tunneling under them or climbing over them with ladders would be ineffective, unlike with a giant wall in the middle of nowhere.

            • (Score: 2) by EEMac on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:32PM (1 child)

              by EEMac (6423) on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:32PM (#816106)

              Walls worked for Israel [politifact.com], China [reddit.com], Hungary [breitbart.com] . . .

              • (Score: 2) by arslan on Monday March 18 2019, @05:55AM

                by arslan (3462) on Monday March 18 2019, @05:55AM (#816276)

                There's also a big "wall" between North & South Korea... sure it is primarily a piece of land with fences on both sides, but it is what's inside that counts =)

                When I saw Trump propose this in his election campaign, I though he was gonna spin this into a win-win... you know maybe build a golf course on top or at least a driving range - get part of the cover fee to employ those waiting to be processed to go collect golf balls or something. Do some tourism murica campaign to Asia about this new radical golfing joint - get all those govie and charity sponsored "workshops" & "offsite team building" events there. Win, win for everyone.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 18 2019, @07:40AM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 18 2019, @07:40AM (#816315) Journal

            I need to make a point for "the other side" here.

            Yes, a simple wall, or even a simple fence, will deter the lowest common denominator to which you refer. But, the LCD doesn't even come to the border. The LCD's of the various populations to our south, stay home, and live their lives. You would have a hard time forcing them to walk a thousand miles or more, just to make a death defying walk across the desert, to climb over some Normandy Beach type barricades.

            Those people who have made that thousand mile trek are pretty determined. If they know beforehand that they need a twelve foot ladder, then there will be a twelve foot ladder with the group - probably two of them, so that they don't have to jump down from the top of the wall.

            You're right, we cut down on the number of people willing to make the trek, simply because they know there is a wall there. But, no wall is enough. We MUST patrol the wall, more effectively than we already do. We MUST install surveillance that is far more effective than we already have. We should know well in advance any time a group of five or more starts moving toward the wall. We have satellites that can scan in infrared, ultraviolet, visible light, and various forms of radar. We have all of that, and more that can be mounted on the fence. We can wire the fence for sound, to the point we can hear owls and bats gliding over the fence at night.

            And, we have PEOPLE. I insist that there should be (at least) an army division regularly patrolling the badlands. We already have the army. We already have more than enough people in the army. All we need do, is decide to task a division with patrolling and securing that border. Unfortunately, we lack the determination to do so.

          • (Score: 2) by Arik on Monday March 18 2019, @09:32AM

            by Arik (4543) on Monday March 18 2019, @09:32AM (#816329) Journal
            Sorry, you're the one showing your ignorance.

            The sonoran desert straddles the border and it's under intense surveillance. There are satellites, of course, there are also blimps. Some days they come down low enough you can spot them, if you know where to look, but even when they're so far up you can't see them, they are watching. Internet surveillance is constant and pervasive regardless of location, of course. Finally there are checkpoints, numerous checkpoints both at the border and far, far inland from it, for one more layer of surveillance.

            The sensible crossing points already have walls, or at least fences, and more cameras. But even when folks detour way out into the sonoran and cross in the middle of the desert where there is no wall and no guards, you know what happens? Border patrol gets a call from the eye in the sky and they go out in the middle of the desert and pick them up. They bring water and medicine when they do this - that desert is mean and the folks they pick up are typically in bad shape and wind up being rescued as much as intercepted but the point is it happens. It happens because the entire area is under constant surveillance, even if you go around all the walls you don't get in that way. It just gets you a short stay in custody followed by a free bus ride back to the border. This happens constantly.

            It's ignorant of you to not grasp this basic fact, something which is known and reported and easily verified if you wanted to do any research.

            --
            If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @06:43PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @06:43PM (#816009)

          It's a 30' wall.

          If you try to erect a simple 30' ladder, you will fail. Suppose your arms can reach up 7 feet. You can balance and rotate a ladder twice that length, so 14 feet. If it is longer, it strikes the ground before you can rotate it to be vertical. You can get maybe another foot of distance by holding the ladder off-center if you have very strong hands.

          Clearly, you'll need a sliding ladder. Those are expensive. Well, the plain ones would be too, because a plain 30' ladder is not generally available on the market. With a sliding ladder, you need some overlap of the sections, so you still won't get 30 feet. You'd need a 3-section ladder. Those are really rare and expensive, and they are heavy as fuck. Lugging the ladder across the desert, to a place with limited border patrol, will be very difficult.

          Then we confiscate the ladder. That was expensive.

          I'd rather we push the ladder backwards with the illegals on it, but insane leftists don't see this for the violent invasion that it is. Anyway...

          It just isn't practical for them to come in large numbers with ladders. Sure, it will happen. Some may even manage to build scaffolding or bore a deep tunnel. Other modern walls, in Israel and in southeastern Europe, have stopped more than 99% of the traffic coming through. It's a lot easier to shoot (OK, "apprehend", sigh) the remaining 1%.

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 18 2019, @12:53PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 18 2019, @12:53PM (#816372)

            Dear Mr. Engineer,
            More than one of us will carry the ladders, and more than one of us will raise the ladders. And then more than one of us will use the ladders.

            And in case you think that we will build the ladders right in front of the wall within clear view of the US Border Patrol, you are mistaken. We will buy ladders near by because capitalism works on both sides of the border whether people as smart as you believe it or not.

            Signed,
            Desperate and Seeking Refuge

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Nobuddy on Monday March 18 2019, @02:59PM (1 child)

            by Nobuddy (1626) on Monday March 18 2019, @02:59PM (#816417)

            https://www.wernerco.com/us/view/Products/Climbing-Equipment/Extension-Ladders/D6200-2/D6240-2 [wernerco.com]
            (hint: look at manufacture location)
            Thats gotta fucking hurt. That much ignorance being being both exposed and blown away by a simple link. Ouch. Will you need some therapy?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @08:15AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @08:15AM (#817817)

              That is the biggest ladder, extending from 20 feet to 35 feet. It goes for $500 to $800.

              So, how do you erect it? Dangerously, you could use a step ladder. The point is that your hands will need to be about 10 feet above the ground if it isn't extended. A better plan would be to use a crane... but then you have a crane and don't need a ladder.

              It's also too damn heavy to lug across the desert. Once we find it, we confiscate it. Overall, this is not a viable plan for millions of people crossing the border.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday March 17 2019, @03:41PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @03:41PM (#815875) Journal

        Even using the most expensive wall cost estimate, we'd break even in two years due to the expense of handling illegal aliens.

        There's so much wrong with that single statement. First, the most expensive wall estimate will far short of the actual cost of the wall. It's standard government accounting these days to vastly understate the cost of such projects. Second, the wall will need to be maintained - at least till some future president kills it. Third, those expensively handled illegal aliens will just find some other way to get it. Fourth, unless someone explicitly cuts that ICE budget, the money will continue to be spent, whether it be on illegal aliens or something else. It's a standard funding rule in the US. Use it or lose it.

        Finally, what's going to happen when protestors and smugglers vandalize the wall? The wall designs mentioned are durable [washingtonpost.com], but can be broken down by large groups of people using basic hand tools.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:39AM (2 children)

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:39AM (#815796) Homepage Journal

      Forty Days And Forty Nights, not of Rain, but of _Projectiles_:

      The Ballista.

      That just had to suck to be them.

      Istanbul was Constantinople
      Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
      Been a long time gone, Constantinople
      Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

      Every gal in Constantinople
      Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
      So if you've a date in Constantinople
      She'll be waiting in Istanbul

      Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
      Why they changed it I can't say
      People just liked it better that way

      So take me back to Constantinople
      No, you can't go back to Constantinople
      Been a long time gone, Constantinople
      Why did Constantinople get the works?
      That's nobody's business but the Turks

      Istanbul, Istanbul
      Istanbul, Istanbul

      Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
      Why they changed it I can't say
      People just liked it better that way

      Istanbul was Constantinople
      Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
      Been a long time gone, Constantinople
      Why did Constantinople get the works?
      That's nobody's business but the Turks

      So take me back to Constantinople
      No, you can't go back to Constantinople
      Been a long time gone, Constantinople
      Why did Constantinople get the works?
      That's nobody's business but the Turks

      Istanbul

      --
      Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
      • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday March 18 2019, @11:55PM

        by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 18 2019, @11:55PM (#816713) Homepage Journal

        The Dutch merchants in New Amsterdam figured they would have better access to English markets if they renamed their city New York. That's why.

      • (Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday March 19 2019, @07:21AM

        by Arik (4543) on Tuesday March 19 2019, @07:21AM (#816845) Journal
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcze7EGorOk
        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
    • (Score: 5, Touché) by SpockLogic on Sunday March 17 2019, @12:02PM (8 children)

      by SpockLogic (2762) on Sunday March 17 2019, @12:02PM (#815809)

      I'm not in favor of the border wall. Trump's not the first person to propose it, not likely to be the last, but for better or worse he made it a signature of his campaign so he has indeed a *duty* to attempt to implement it.

      Just like his *duty* to get Mexico to pay for it?

      --
      Overreacting is one thing, sticking your head up your ass hoping the problem goes away is another - edIII
      • (Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 17 2019, @01:07PM (7 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @01:07PM (#815829) Journal

        That's the bit that no one seems to get.

        Each and every Mexican shipped back to Mexico, who IS NOT REPLACED by ten more Mexicans, is payment on the wall. Mexico's biggest industry is the smuggling of drugs. Mexico's second biggest industry is "remissions" from the United States. If the wall stops, or even slows, the flow of drugs and invaders, then yes, Mexico will have paid for the wall. It isn't even necessary to stop all of the drugs, or all of the illegal aliens. If we cut the flow in half, Mexico will pay for the wall, in the form of lost funds.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday March 17 2019, @03:46PM (5 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @03:46PM (#815878) Journal

          Each and every Mexican shipped back to Mexico, who IS NOT REPLACED by ten more Mexicans, is payment on the wall.

          One of the few things Obama got right was coming up with a sensible way [nbcnews.com] to keep people from illegally immigrating. Get caught and you can't apply for legal immigration for a period of time (maybe two years?). Get caught multiple times and you're banned from applying for life. Of course, this requires that there is a credible legal way to immigrate, but seems a small price to pay for getting even a part of immigration policy that works.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @06:48PM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @06:48PM (#816013)

            It doesn't require that there be a credible legal way to immigrate. It absolutely does not.

            We DO NOT have to accept these people. This is OUR nation. We can choose to accept ZERO and that is our right. This land is OUR land.

            It is especially bad to accept any immigrant who would enlarge a significant non-English ghetto. This means that all Spanish-speaking people, without regard for country of origin, are really bad.

            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:17PM

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday March 17 2019, @07:17PM (#816037) Journal

              Tell that to all the greedhead CEOs who love the slave labor force with no rights, the Democrats who are cynically aiming for a larger voter base, and so on. THAT is your problem right there. The US could stop illegal immigration easily if it had the political will: destroy and nationalize any company hiring illegals. But it won't, because the system WANTS this. Which means you lot are being played for a fool by the very people stoking your anti-immigrant sentiment.

              Wake up and smell the cafe con leche: the elite are using you *and* the illegals and playing you off one another. The illegals didn't steal your job; the elite did, and GAVE it to one of them.

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:42PM (2 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:42PM (#816113) Journal

              It doesn't require that there be a credible legal way to immigrate. It absolutely does not.

              Yes, it does. Because otherwise it's just an empty threat and would-be illegal immigrants have no incentive to stay out.

              It is especially bad to accept any immigrant who would enlarge a significant non-English ghetto. This means that all Spanish-speaking people, without regard for country of origin, are really bad.

              We had the same drama with Europeans (Poles, Germans, Scandinavians, etc). It sorted out fine.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:55PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @11:55PM (#816162)

                We catch them. We flay them. Who will sign up for that? Obviously we don't just set them back on the other side of the border to try again.

                Prison works too, as long as we take it seriously. We can outsource the prisons to El Salvador, Haiti, Democratic Republic of the Congo, North Korea, or any other place that would make prisons be an actual punishment.

                The drama with Europeans was less severe except possibly for the Germans. It took a couple centuries to fully clear that up. We actually needed a world war against Germany to make speaking German be fully unacceptable in public. So... is your solution to have a world war against a Spanish-speaking country? IMHO that would really suck.

                I don't want to wait 2 centuries to get my country unified again. I won't live that long. I'd suffer all my life, and my great-grandchildren would too.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 18 2019, @12:49AM

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 18 2019, @12:49AM (#816184) Journal

                  We catch them. We flay them.

                  Eighth amendment precludes us from inflicting cruel and unusual punishments, such as flaying, for minor crimes like illegal immigration.

                  We actually needed a world war against Germany to make speaking German be fully unacceptable in public.

                  It never was a problem, much less one requiring a world war.

                  I don't want to wait 2 centuries to get my country unified again. I won't live that long. I'd suffer all my life, and my great-grandchildren would too.

                  When was the last time it was "unified" in the way you claim? I think ignorance of history is biting you here.

        • (Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Monday March 18 2019, @03:06PM

          by Nobuddy (1626) on Monday March 18 2019, @03:06PM (#816422)

          An amendment to the US constitution says humans can no longer be used as currency. So we are back to cash.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @12:41PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17 2019, @12:41PM (#815824)

      'm not in favor of the border wall. Trump's not the first person to propose it.

      Border wall was already built under Bush and then Obama.. But since Trump wants only to tear down and take ownership of what Obama did, he pretends he came up with the idea. Like the ACA (Affordable Care Act) or Obamacare... and the useful idiots are too stupid to know any better.

      https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/apr/23/mick-mulvaney/fact-check-did-top-democrats-vote-border-wall-2006/ [politifact.com]

      • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:22PM

        by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:22PM (#816099) Homepage

        Politifact is biased as fuck with liberal AIDS.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:43PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:43PM (#816114) Journal

        Border wall was already built under Bush and then Obama.

        Some wall building was present under those two administrations. The Trump version apparently would run over most of the US-Mexico border and require a great deal of imminent domain.

    • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Sunday March 17 2019, @09:29PM (8 children)

      So I applaud the veto, but I'm also looking forward to an override.

      That was pretty much my thought too.

      Especially given that L'Orange promised a veto. If Congress isn't prepared to override said veto, they never should have passed the bill in the first place.

      We shall see.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday March 17 2019, @10:57PM (7 children)

        I dunno. I kind of like seeing them actually passing things they're not sure will be signed. If they're sure ahead of time it's because of backroom dealing.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday March 18 2019, @12:20AM (6 children)

          I dunno. I kind of like seeing them actually passing things they're not sure will be signed. If they're sure ahead of time it's because of backroom dealing.

          Says who? Does any bill that has a veto-proof majority necessarily mean that there's, as you say, "back room dealing?"

          I mean that a bill could be, well, you know, in the best interests of the nation and its people. And if it is, then shouldn't all of our legislators support it?

          Just a crazy thought.

          A united Congress *working together* (a novel concept these days) to pass legislation despite opposition from the Executive branch would be a welcome change from the "my party right or wrong" business as usual shenanigans.

          I'd hoped that *before* (or certainly during) the most recent shutdown, that Congress would pass a CR [wikipedia.org] keeping (or reopening) the government up and running with a veto-proof majority. That, alas, proved too much for the weasels on the Hill.

          Truth be told, I'd have preferred to see this last bill passed with veto-proof majorities in the first place.
          I thought (and it may still end up being the case, but I'm not holding my breath) that since the administration is attempting to spend money Congress hasn't appropriated for that purpose might just be enough to get these folks to override the veto.

          Like I said, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

          --
          No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday March 18 2019, @03:15AM (5 children)

            There essentially aren't any bills with veto-proof majorities that say anything more substantial than "Breathing air is good." I'd quite like it if this were not the case but they never ask me what I think. Not putting the requirement to ask me beforehand in the constitution was a gross oversight by the founding fathers but nobody's perfect.

            Frankly, I'm hoping it honks enough congress critters off that they start pulling powers from the executive branch in a bipartisan manner but I'm not going to hold my breath.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday March 18 2019, @04:09AM (4 children)

              There essentially aren't any bills with veto-proof majorities that say anything more substantial than "Breathing air is good."

              Really?

              I think the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act [wikipedia.org] did a little more than say "breathing air is good."

              And I think even you would agree that the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 1995 [wikipedia.org] was fairly substantial.

              Overriding Reagan's veto of the Civil Rights Restoration Act of 1987 [wikipedia.org] was also far from just window dressing.

              Congress also overrode Nixon's veto of the Clean Water Act [wikipedia.org].

              I'd also point out that a number of appropriations bills were also overridden since the Clean Water Act in 1973. I'll leave the details of those up to you.

              So. No. Veto overrides have happened WRT substantial legislation. Repeatedly. I didn't go back before 1973 because I imagine I've made my point, no?

              --
              No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday March 18 2019, @05:31AM (3 children)

                No, you haven't. You had to go back over forty years to get that many instances. We're not talking about forty years ago when a goodly majority of the people were perfectly willing to listen to ideas not their own and even cross party lines in their voting habits. We're talking about the hyper-polarized partisan environment we currently live in. Unless you get a veto-proof majority entirely of one party, you're not passing anything with a veto-proof majority. Maybe if we get bombed. Maybe.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday March 18 2019, @11:16AM (2 children)

                  We're talking about the hyper-polarized partisan environment we currently live in. Unless you get a veto-proof majority entirely of one party, you're not passing anything with a veto-proof majority.

                  And that's the problem, isn't it? I say we do something about it.

                  --
                  No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday March 18 2019, @11:36AM (1 child)

                    Prison would interfere with my fishing. It'll have to be voting unless they cheese me off to a pretty epic level.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday March 18 2019, @01:06PM

                      Prison would interfere with my fishing. It'll have to be voting unless they cheese me off to a pretty epic level.

                      Works for me. I have a 50+ year Cal Ripken-like streak of never going to jail working. I'd like to keep that streak up too, as it would interfere with much more than just my fishing.

                      I totally get partisan politics, and there really are partisan policy differences.

                      It just seems ridiculous that folks who are elected to represent us sell us down the river to support "their" side *first* rather than focusing on what's best for, in order, their constituency, the nation, and then their party.

                      You and I are gettin' old, so I imagine you remember Ronnie Raygun and Tip O'Neill [wikipedia.org] (link for the young'uns who don't recall). As much as I disliked both of those guys (but not as much as they hated each other), they made a point to get past that on several occasions to do what was best for the nation.

                      After Billy Boy got into office, and the 'R's took control of Congress, we had a taste of what we now see all the time now from that piece of shit Newt [wikipedia.org] and his flunkies.

                      That's not to say Billy Boy was all sweetness and light either. He sold us down the river to get *something* done with Burgermeister Meisterburger over in the House in full "my way or the highway" mode. And, predictably, the 'D's eventually followed suit.

                      It's a sad state of affairs, and I'd appreciate it if you did vote, Buzzard.

                      But just vote. I'd be afraid for anyone who ended up in jail with you. :)

                      --
                      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
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