Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:
Four major automakers that recently reached an agreement with the state of California to hold to certain emissions standards over the next decade are now the target of a federal antitrust investigation.
Ford, Honda, BMW, and Volkswagen confirmed to media they have been contacted about the probe, which was first reported by The Wall Street Journal.
"Honda will work cooperatively with the Department of Justice with regard to the recent emissions agreement reached between the State of California and various automotive manufacturers, including Honda," the company said. BMW and Ford also confirmed receiving a letter from the DOJ, and Volkswagen said it is in "regular contact" with US authorities.
The companies reached an agreement with the California Air Resource Board (CARB) in July to produce cars for the US market that exceed national level-fuel efficiency standards. Under the terms of the deal, the automakers will improve their overall fleets' average fuel efficiency by 3.7% per year, starting with the 2022 model year. The plan also includes certain incentives to promote a transition to widespread manufacture and adoption of electric vehicles.
In a separate action from the DOJ probe, the Environmental Protection Agency and Department of Transportation also sent a letter (PDF) to "put California on notice."
"This framework agreement appears to be inconsistent with Federal law," the agencies said. "We urge you to act immediately to disassociate CARB from the commitments made by the four automakers. Those commitments may result in legal consequences given the limits placed in Federal law on California's authority."
State leadership, however, does not appear likely to give way in response to the threat. "The Trump Administration has been attempting and failing to bully car companies for months now," California Governor Gavin Newsom said in an emailed statement. "We remain undeterred. California stands up to bullies and will keep fighting for stronger clean car protections that protect the health and safety of our children and families."
CARB chairwoman Mary D. Nichols in an emailed statement said the DOJ "brings its weight to bear against auto companies in an attempt to frighten them out of voluntarily making cleaner, more efficient cars and trucks than EPA wants. Consumers might ask, who is [EPA Administrator] Andy Wheeler protecting?"
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 08 2019, @06:48AM (30 children)
The deal requires the automakers to improve their overall fleet's average fuel efficiency by 3.7 percent per year, starting with the 2022 model year. It also promotes a transition to electric vehicles by giving companies that produce and sell more electric cars credits toward meeting that emissions standard,
Is fuel efficiency of ICE vehicles going to improve, or not?
It appears that maybe California is twisting some arms to increase the production of EV's, while granting something like "carbon credits" to less efficient ICE vehicles.
If ICE vehicles are truly getting more efficient, there's not much of a downside here. If, instead, they are just getting credits for the sale of EV's, we can anticipate more of those rolling coal situations. People who can afford to be wasteful suddenly become conspicuously wasteful, blasting tons of pollution out their exhausts, just to piss of Joe Sixpack, stuck in his POS EV.
Which leads me to another thought:
How many of us believe that Electric Vehicles will just automatically, almost magically, be nice rides? Today's market is targeted at wealthier customers. In forty years, when "economy electric vehicles" have become a thing, what then? What will the equivalent of a Ford Pinto look like? Most likely, it will look very much like a Ford Pinto, but quieter. There will still be the rough ride, rattles, squeaks, wind noise, road noise, crap heater, crap air conditioning, and shitty sound system. That, of course, will be standard with the new vehicles. Everything will deteriorate from there, LOL.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 08 2019, @06:53AM
Laughing even harder at the idea of a Crown Victoria police cruiser. Some engineer will be tasked with making those batteries explode when properly hit at the correct angle from the rear. You may argue that no engineer will actually get that job. I insist that it will happen all the same. Some poor sap of an apprentice is going to have some "great idea". His superiors won't properly evaluate that idea, and some nitwit of a junior manager is going to love the idea. Ultimately, there will be yet another POS police cruiser on the highways, needlessly killing cops. Bonus points if they also kill innocent bystanders, I suppose.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 08 2019, @11:57AM (8 children)
Can I buy a Ford Pinto today? No. So what's your comparison?
We already have cheap-ass electric cars. Their problem has nothing to do with the way they look. Electric cars can be made much cheaper than non-electric cars, if you bring your own battery. This means that the cheap electric cars will just have a smaller battery and smaller motor to save on materials - so maybe a range of 100-150km and maybe something like 50kW motor.
https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf-2019/?pth=9 [nissanusa.com]
Basically, the future of cars in the future is you rent a car and it comes down to you and picks you up. Then you can rent a $100k car for $5-10/hr
(Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Sunday September 08 2019, @12:23PM (2 children)
A place to live can be made more cheaply, if you bring your own house. It doesn't make sense to talk how cheap something is when you blatantly ignore large costs.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 08 2019, @05:50PM (1 child)
This is B*TSHIT EMOJI.
(Score: 0, Redundant) by khallow on Sunday September 08 2019, @09:14PM
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 08 2019, @12:31PM (4 children)
I read your post, and thought to myself, "Maybe this guy isn't too bright." But, this bit?
Obviously, you understand almost nothing about economics. You do NOT rent out a $100,000 for ten dollars per hour, and stay in business. Examples?
https://www.compactpowerrents.com/rental-equipment/material-handling/telehandler-2-500-lb/ [compactpowerrents.com]
https://www.welchequipment.com/inventory/?/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/56980901/2019-ausa-t144h?dlr=1&pcid=3836545&ftr=1&lo=3&title=Ausa+Equipment [welchequipment.com]
And, no, you won't be renting a $100,000 vehicle anyway. You'll be renting an $11,000 POS, rather similar to the old Ford Pinto that you pretend to not be familiar with. You'll be renting the car that a bunch of drunk high school foot ball team mates puked in last night, and hasn't been hosed out yet.
(Score: 3, Informative) by hemocyanin on Sunday September 08 2019, @03:06PM (3 children)
You are comparing heavy equipment which gets beat up way more than a car does and thus has increased maintenance costs. Then there's the hydraulics -- way more complicated than a car has. And even then you're only $6/hr over AC's maximum $10/hr cost for a 24 hr rental.
I do agree though, that "BYOB[attery]" doesn't make any sense to me. I also agree that on-demand car rental is probably a limited market -- best for people who live in very dense urban areas where just having a place to put a car is a big issue. For the rest of us -- not so great.
You should be more open to electrics though. I've had a Leaf now for about three years, maybe more -- anyway I bought it used. The ONLY maintenance I've done on it is to buy a set of snow tires and refill the window washer fluid resevoir. And as I've mentioned in posts before, it's awesome. Not in an "awesome for an econobox" way -- flat out awesome: no vibrations, quiet, 80c/gal equivalent compared to a 25mpg vehicle, zippy as all get out, and a fairly massive cargo area. Obviously it's a local commuter only, and I do have a gas car as well (a very nice one in fact), but I only use the gas car when I need to -- if I'm making an optional trip to town to get ice cream or whatever, I grab the Leaf - I don't even think about it.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 08 2019, @05:41PM (1 child)
It's not a problem to be open to useful innovations - people buy them like hot cakes. However an EV today is useful, within strict limits, only to a subset of the population. People outside of this subset just cannot use an EV effectively. For example, I live in an apartment building in a city. To use an EV within the city people need a charger at every parking spot, so that you don't have to get up at night to unplug the car, and the cost of charging should be low. If you have a garage, that's easy, but if you live in an apt then it's not so easy. Right now if I buy a Leaf, I'd have to spend too much time and money to charge it even at home - gas is cheaper, and peace of mind is very valuable. I have a hybrid now, it works fine, but if I have to replace it, I'll get another dependable hybrid, not an EV - I just can't afford to care for it as much as an EV needs.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday September 09 2019, @02:10AM
It's not so strict a limit as you think. My brother uses an EV (BMW i3) to commute to work from Ypsilanti, MI, to Dearborn, MI every day. Some days he has to visit auto parts suppliers across the border in Ohio. He has a range extender, but rarely uses it. He reports using one fill-up of the 3-odd gallon tank per year.
My brother-in-law also commutes with an EV, also an i3, in suburban Long Island, from Syosset to Mineola. It's a brief drive, but he takes that same car up to ski at Hunter Mountain 150 miles away, to Connecticut, etc. He has a range extender, but on his regular routes he knows where the fast chargers are and takes his breaks there. Doesn't have to use the range extender much anymore. Last year he drove it up to camp with us in the Adirondacks, 255 miles away.
A year ago we did a road trip up to the northern tip of Newfoundland and passed Teslas on the way. There are no superchargers up there and it's the middle of fucking nowhere along that coast, so I asked my brother about how they could have managed. He said they charge up at motor parks where the Winnebagos hook in.
But with your particular situation, the question is sooner: why do you have a car at all? Can't you take transit or Ueber or Lyft? Zipcar? Car2Go? Bird? Delivery? I understand that there are edge cases for why somebody in your situation must drive and it must be an ICE, but the salient point here is that with all the alternatives and the current state of EVs, yours is an edge case.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday September 08 2019, @09:24PM
Beat up more than a rental car? Not seeing it myself. But then again, maybe the profit center in such an expensive rental car would be the customer paying for damages to the car. Then you'd want cheap rental to get more profitable accidents?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday September 08 2019, @01:44PM (18 children)
"Joe Sixpack" does not drive an EV. Only yuppies and faggots drive EV's, and quite obnoxiously so.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 08 2019, @02:08PM (13 children)
EF, even you will change in the next 4 decades. Yes, even you. You may become a yuppie or a faggot, and start driving an electrically powered vehicle. Really, what else are you going to do when there are no more internal combusion engines being built?
Much of the hype and talk about EV's is just so much bullshit, today. But, there are advancements being made in the field of batteries. Last thing I read was iron oxide batteries - or, lithium iron oxide. I hate to be responsible for adding to the hype, but a couple articles on the subject:
https://futurism.com/battery-revolutionize-clean-energy [futurism.com]
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/05/new_battery_design_mobile_phones_electric_vehicles/ [theregister.co.uk]
The major barriers for EV's right now are charge rates, and range. If I can buy a vehicle that will drive 500 miles, then recharge on household current in an hour and a half, I would most definitely consider it. Add a solar charging panel instead of a stupid painted roof/hood/trunk, and things look even sweeter.
In forty years, only yuppies and faggots will still be investing the kind of money necessary to keep an ICE on the road.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday September 08 2019, @02:14PM (9 children)
You gimme an EV with a manual transmission and an entertainment system that sits on a different chip than the ECU, and we'll talk.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 08 2019, @02:41PM (4 children)
So you're just another commie pinko democrat, after all. You want me to gimme something you want. Next, you'll be advocating free health care, free college education, free food, free housing, free sex, and free travel to extra-solar system colonies.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday September 08 2019, @02:48PM (3 children)
You can gimme a blowjob, and it better be a good one. You are likely not pretty enough for me to look downward during the process, but I will pay you five bucks for your efforts. By saying "five bucks," I mean five dollars, not five Black men. So the challenge is yours to accept.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 08 2019, @03:20PM (2 children)
*rolleyes*
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 08 2019, @06:51PM (1 child)
As a mere AC, I have to wonder why you even bother to try to talk to any of these people anymore.
(Score: 5, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday September 08 2019, @08:06PM
Eth and Runaway deserve one another. I'd love to see what happens if the two of them get locked in a cell together. ...except the blowjob part, ick.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Sunday September 08 2019, @03:24PM (2 children)
I don't know about all EVs, but my Leaf's transmission is fairly simple -- it simply reduces the RPM from the electric motor and lets pick between forward and reverse -- just like you would see on a boat (there are some boats with two speed transmissions, but this is to give you an extra low speed for docking and such). Does a geared transmission even make sense with an electric car? This is interesting: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a12019034/why-dont-electric-cars-have-multi-gear-transmissions/ [roadandtrack.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday September 08 2019, @09:02PM
There's no point in replying to EF.
He think anyone who showers more often than monthly is a yuppie, and wearing a clean shirt makes you a faggot.
I am sure he understands the stupidity of a manual transmission EV, he is just terrified of change.
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday September 10 2019, @05:35AM
Perhaps a low gear in a 4x4, better control at very low speeds. The low gear would be seldom used but for crawling up a steep incline with loose gravel or such, perhaps. I'd guess it would be easy to spin the wheels at times with regular gearing.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 08 2019, @04:08PM
The big reveal.... EF is stupid. Still.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by krishnoid on Sunday September 08 2019, @02:36PM (1 child)
So you can get back in the car and keep driving? You, sir, must have super-powered wakefulness and buns of steel, and I applaud both (or all three) of those.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 08 2019, @05:44PM
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Monday September 09 2019, @01:57PM
The big problem is charge time. There is no way around the fact that a petrol (gas to you guys) pump easily delivers power at a rate of 20 megawatts.
My entire household switchboard tops out at 15KW. I can pay a not-toooo-large connection fee* and get a 3-phase 415V connection which will still top out at about 100KW. But I can only do that because not many people do get one. If even 5% of houses got one it would overload the grid,
And it would still take 200 times as long as a petrol pump.**
*Haven't priced one recently, but a few years back it was several thousand dollars including the heavy wiring to the board and new meters/breakers. Where you took it from there was between you and your electrician.
**Really it's about 100 times because of efficiency differences between ICE and electric engines.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 08 2019, @04:05PM
From the quality of your insightful comments, I'm going to guess that you probably aren't smart enough to tie your own shoes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 08 2019, @05:39PM
So how are you liking your EV so far?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday September 09 2019, @02:19AM (1 child)
You're quite wrong there. EVs drive so much better than ICEs. It is a huge step up. Yeah yeah yeah it saves the Earth whatever. The important thing is the EV leaves the muscle cars and high-end German cars standing at the line. There is no gearing curve. There is no delay. The acceleration is instant and precise enough to cut your teeth on. Some dick in a BMW (is there any other kind?) won't let you into his lane? The EV can warp in ahead of him before he can even get the signal to his foot. There's no braying of cylinders or squealing of tires with an EV, just an instantaneous assertion of superiority. It is an expression of the ultimate and final victory of the geek over the jock. And, man, do the jocks look wilted when you blow their asshole-mobiles off the road.
Don't take my word for it. Take one for a test drive. A Tesla, and put it in ludicrous mode. You'll have to get a surgeon to surgically remove your smile.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 09 2019, @06:43AM
Don't care.
I've been on the track, I've hammered vehicles so powerful that the limiting factor was wheelies and traction.
Don't care.
In the real world, I care about a thing that will haul a metric ton of goods, plus passengers, on the highway as well as offroad for a range counted in hundreds of miles, and then refill quickly.
No EV that will do that is at my disposal. Until that changes, we might as well be talking about unicorn carriages. If it costs a fat premium over the ICE or hybrid alternative, it might still just as well not exist.
(Score: 4, Funny) by krishnoid on Sunday September 08 2019, @02:28PM
Stop already! What's with the nostalgia overload? Geez, now I'm getting all misty-eyed.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by aristarchus on Sunday September 08 2019, @07:06PM (2 children)
This entire thread is off topic. The headline is, the Trump administration was Freeing America from onerous Obama fuel efficiency regulations, to make America Grate Agan, but the people he was freeing wanted to stick by the original regulations, so the Trumpster is going to order them out of China, and to buy Greenland, and to Hurricane Alabama. This is just like Trump pulling out of the Iran deal, only to have the rest of the world continue to abide by it and ignore the idiot American reality TV show president. Of course, he can't punish the EU or the rest of the world for disrespecting him, like he can NOAA [washingtonpost.com], but he can certainly threaten California for doing so. I predict it will not end well.
(Score: 1, Funny) by khallow on Sunday September 08 2019, @09:11PM (1 child)
And I have to agree that Trump's present threats are pretty damned toothless. Maybe he should have gone with RICO instead of trust busting? That's pretty open ended.
(Score: 2, Funny) by aristarchus on Sunday September 08 2019, @09:31PM
You mean my EF and khallow accounts? WTF is it with my own sockpuppet talking back to me? Shut up, khallow! You're out of your league!