from the year-of-the-linux-desktop-in-China-by-2023 dept.
The Guardian is reporting that the tech war just got hot.
China will be replacing all hardware and software with Chinese equivalents. This is the latest escalation in the US-China tech trade war in response to the US ban on Huawei equipment.
China has ordered that all foreign computer equipment and software be removed from government offices and public institutions within three years, the Financial Times reports.
The government directive is likely to be a blow to US multinational companies like HP, Dell and Microsoft and mirrors attempts by Washington to limit the use of Chinese technology, as the trade war between the countries turns into a tech cold war.
The Trump administration banned US companies from doing business with Chinese Chinese[sic] telecommunications company Huawei earlier this year and in May, Google, Intel and Qualcomm announced they would freeze cooperation with Huawei.
By excluding China from western know-how, the Trump administration has made it clear that the real battle is about which of the two economic superpowers has the technological edge for the next two decades.
China already leads in patents
China's 2016 patent application total is greater than the combined total of patent applications filed in 2016 in the United States (605,571), Japan (318,381), South Korea (208,830) and Europe (159,358). These five jurisdictions accounted for 84 percent of all patent applications filed during 2016.
China has been preparing for an all-out IT war.
In May, Hu Xijin, editor of the Global Times newspaper in China, said the withdrawal of sharing by US tech companies with Huawei would not be fatal for the company because the Chinese firm has been planning for this conflict "for years" and would prompt the company to develop its own microchip industry to rival America's.
"Cutting off technical services to Huawei will be a real turning point in China's overall research and development and use of domestic chips," he said in a social media post. "Chinese people will no longer have any illusions about the steady use of US technology."
US trade policy may have been meant to pressure China, but that move looks to have just forced an acceleration of the loss of software and hardware orders from American suppliers to China.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by EvilSS on Monday December 09 2019, @03:46PM (10 children)
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday December 09 2019, @03:50PM (3 children)
(Score: 4, Insightful) by takyon on Monday December 09 2019, @04:02PM (2 children)
They have more hardware and software expertise now, and more reasons to be paranoid.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Monday December 09 2019, @05:13PM (1 child)
So the only thing is tariffs - and it's US citizens who pay them.
China probably figures that any loss of exports will be more than made up for by increased domestic demand. As this works it's way through the world economy, expect the US stock market to fall. And China is well aware of this as well - they're playing hard ball.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @08:40PM
"and it's US citizens who pay them. "
ohh, those poor traitors!
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @04:19PM (2 children)
It's not just hardware level bugs. Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook, and many more companies are all a part of at least one major global (and domestic) surveillance program - PRISM [wikipedia.org]. In modern times using US sourced hardware or software is consenting to being spied on by the US government.
What I don't understand is why other nations have been so relatively accepting of this relationship. Look at the phones other world leaders use to see this isn't a secret, nor are they okay with US snooping. Blackberries and non-apple / non-google choices are ubiquitous. Yet these same leaders seem to have little concern with the US snooping on the rest of their population which is functionally identical to what our spooks probably garner from the top-down snooping anyhow.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Tuesday December 10 2019, @05:55AM (1 child)
There are several other programs similar to PRISM yet each far worse. I forget which one that Snowden said to focus on but it was not PRISM. I wonder if the noise about PRISM is supposed to steer attention away from MUSCULAR, TEMPORA, and the others. Probably not, though, it is enought that the public's very limited attention span is easily overwhelmed.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11 2019, @01:38AM
"nothing to hide...." Probably the same folks who shut the bathroom door when taking a dump.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by HiThere on Monday December 09 2019, @06:56PM
More to the point, given recent history it's foolish to depend on the US to maintain any critical or important systems. The US govt. has repeatedly demonstrated that it's willing to cut off trade in items to injure it's trading partners. (Sabotage has also happened, but more rarely.)
It used to be common practice to avoid sole-source contracts for this reason (though at that time the US was a relatively reliable partner). This was true even at the commercial level, much less the governmental one. There are excellent reasons for avoiding sole-source contracts, and few reasons to accept them. It's often better to say "Well, then I guess we can't do that." than to accept a sole-source contract.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by jmichaelhudsondotnet on Tuesday December 10 2019, @03:42PM
Intel exec 1 : I have an idea for short term profits, lets obviously back door all of our products
Intel exec: 2 : think of the short term mind reading potential on a global scale
intel exec 3: wait, won't think make everyone distrust us and never buy any of our things again? we would lose the entire china market?
intel exec 1-3 in unison: we are physically impaired from seeing that far into the future, and we can always rebrand. will always rebrand, we mean.
which is to say, these people clearly must have known this in advance that they couldn't keep their 'management engine' secrets and they would lose the entire china market and maybe start a war.
They must have really thought mind reading and backdoors were very, very valuable in the short term.
Makes you wonder.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11 2019, @02:44AM
Yep it's insanity that any country would rely on Intel chips for their national security. It's not so much the backdoors as the front doors with welcome mats and warm cups of cocoa.
Hopefully they're cheaper and faster and they'll steal my shitty programs that I can't even give away.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @03:51PM
If anyone is wondering if they have the technical means to do it the answer is: yes, at least for hardware.
For x86 VIA has presented an 8-core modern CPU with quad-channel DDR4-3200 RAM and 44-lane PCIe 3.0. That should be sufficient for any current non-server use.
On server side they still have x86 HyGon Dhyana based on AMD Zen and a full in-house ARM server architecture with all the trimmings (storage, network and fabric controllers) with HiSilicon Kunpeng. The last available public information is Kunpeng 920 maxing out with 64-core ARMv8.2 octa-channel DDR4-2933 with 40-lane PCIe 4.0. The next generation 930 should be hitting this or next year as well.
As for software side I'm pretty sure they bullied Microsoft into sharing Windows & Office sources a long time ago.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @03:51PM (18 children)
And I mean it. This is one of the coolest things that could possibly happen. I think everybody would agree that one of the biggest problems in the tech industry at large is monopolization. This move stands to effectively turn the monopolists into small market players which is going to radically shift the dynamic of the entire world market.
The space race is how we from nowhere to putting a man on the moon in less than a decade. Where will the tech race take us? It's something that's damn long overdue and this defacto announcement of such is, again, just awesome.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Monday December 09 2019, @03:53PM (5 children)
(Score: 4, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday December 09 2019, @04:44PM (3 children)
It's not really destroying competition, just limiting the geographic scope of it in two specific instances. It's highly likely it will cause the domestic creation of what was formerly outsourced by each nation. That will effectively double the suppliers to the rest of the world and increase domestic industry for the primaries. Also, forcing both nations to lose out on a huge market necessarily lowers the market share and shrinks the pockets of the entrenched players, thus lowering the bar for new competitors to enter.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday December 09 2019, @07:04PM (2 children)
Possible, but I wouldn't bet on it. I suspect that the "local" Chinese products will include software that has GPL licenses, and so be subject to suit in most countries outside of China. That's the only quick way to get a huge number of software products up and running. But it limits the ability to use them where you don't control the courts.
That said, they could offer GPL versions that would compete with the commercial versions offered by vendors, and those wouldn't have that problem. So they could selectively keep commercial industries from being successful.
However, I suspect the current main purpose is to prevent foreign companies from having control over any important local systems. This doesn't mean it will continue to be the purpose, however, once the projects are up and running.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Monday December 09 2019, @11:29PM (1 child)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday December 09 2019, @11:53PM
Sorry. You don't know what you need until you start doing the conversion. They've probably got a lot ready, but not enough.
OTOH, after reading a bit more this turns out to be a staged conversion of government computers, so maybe you're right. They could have been running test systems for awhile.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday December 09 2019, @11:17PM
You mean like the competition that Microsoft itself has destroyed?
Oh well, it's worked for Microsoft before.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday December 09 2019, @04:35PM
Competition FTW, yep.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 4, Informative) by nobu_the_bard on Monday December 09 2019, @05:09PM (9 children)
It's of limited use, we wouldn't be able to benefit as much from the competition in the United States since we won't be able to trust Chinese made software enough in most cases to use it.
Case in point: every agent I have that goes to China, I have to format their computer on the return trip and reinstall everything. They install malware on it whenever they inspect it, coming in and going back out, every time. Every piece of software the agents use while in China has something or other infecting it too. I've tried to examine the samples but all I can tell is it calls home and sends data (I'm not a software engineer and don't have all day to do this).
I'm supposed to assume that software I buy and download from China won't end up with this kind of malware infecting it as well? If not initially, then in an update, perhaps? No way.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Monday December 09 2019, @05:16PM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @05:17PM
US based software doesn't do this?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @05:38PM (5 children)
Check out PRISM [wikipedia.org]. We've convinced and/or coerced all major software companies (including Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft) to effectively work as government spies. There's a really interesting document [cjfe.org] demonstrating what agents see (including screenshots) when using PRISM to spy on Skype communications. Whatever your computer sends on a Skype connection gets sent out and then directed straight to the NSA. Initial reporting [spiegel.de] on that leak, if you prefer media coverage.
In the FAQ it even has things like agents being confused about why some data is sent multiple times. What happens there is when a spy target uses skype on multiple machines the machine connects to Microsoft's servers to sync their latest conversations, since Microsoft routes everything they send on over to the NSA as well, it ends up in the NSA spook getting multiple copies of the same conversations during the syncing process.
No idea who started this nonsense first, but it's pretty safe to assume than any software from a big company is probably riddled with government backdoors and surveillance mechanisms. IMO this is one of the real issues with the Huawei nonsense. Huawei would probably not respond positively to the NSA asking them to spy up. For that matter the NSA probably wouldn't even want representatives of a Chinese company, and by proxy their government, privy to exactly what we're doing and demanding of companies.
So ultimately you have a choice. Do you want a foreign government half way around the world spying on you, or your local government spying on you. And that's not a rhetorical choice. I think there are good arguments to be made for both sides and ultimately it's something that will be up to the individual to decide. But suffice to say I think there will be a more than sufficient market for domestic usage, unless the government tries to make it impractical or unlawful to use Chinese software - which is a very real possibility.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by nobu_the_bard on Monday December 09 2019, @06:17PM
It's not only about the spying in this case, actually. The problem was I don't see why I should abide the spying running locally, on my machine, wasting my resources.
Additionally, as a local software, it can potentially see what other things the computer is doing, and I'd rather not have them able to scan EVERY account we are managing with other vendors. It's one thing if the government has a hook into Skype chats - it's another thing if Skype is handing them bank credentials it snooped from the browser, which the malware would be positioned to do.
As such we have a rule of only managing Chinese accounts on computers with Chinese software to try to limit the scope of this.
Because of needing to take such a measure, I don't think I could safely mix Chinese Office and Microsoft Office, if that makes sense. I'd have to assume I have this problem with everything ...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @06:59PM (1 child)
To access the American market? I think they absolutely would be creaming themselves to provide intercept ability for the NSA.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday December 09 2019, @07:08PM
No, but the Chinese government would probably look quite favorably on such an opportunity.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday December 09 2019, @10:18PM
No idea who started this nonsense first...
Truman?
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11 2019, @03:35PM
In my case both are foreign governments. But the USA does more "rendition" of non-citizen non-residents than China (who seem to focus more on their citizens and ex-citizens).
Since I don't plan to ever visit China, and don't really conduct much business with China, China spying on me seems to be safer than the USA.
This of course could change if China becomes more powerful...
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 09 2019, @06:52PM
While it is a PITA having "an enemy" out there, there are evolutionary advantages to real competition vs the sham competition among the global virtual monopolies that have been operating in the IT world for decades. With real isolation between the players, they are more likely to explore unique development branches and discover more distinctive competitive advantages, rather than just playing the "oh, we do that too" game of a homogenous global marketplace.
Back in the US-USSR cold war, the Russians developed analog computers to a far higher level than the US - didn't work out for them in the end, though in a shooting war their vacuum tube based control systems would have handled EMP much better than anything with Intel inside.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @05:16PM
Economies of scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale [wikipedia.org]
"small market players" -> higher price x unit
Well, not at all a bad thing: you pay your CPU a lot, so you feel the need to change it much later: good for the environment :D
OTOH, your small player sell less and less frequently, so they need less workers and less sellers, so less and less employees on the long run? :D
IDK. Jim, I'm not an economist... ^_^;;;
CYA
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday December 09 2019, @04:01PM (4 children)
So, does this mean *cough* Microsoft *cough* ?
Woo hoo!
Now if only most of the world could recognize the danger of Microsoft and abandon it. That would leave only 4% of the world population (the US) to suffer with that bloated crapware that new computers are infected with at the factory.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Monday December 09 2019, @05:19PM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by tangomargarine on Monday December 09 2019, @05:40PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylin_(operating_system) [wikipedia.org]
Oh, what I was thinking of was North Korea's version. [wikipedia.org] Still, though.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @07:40PM
Without Windows, how will they carry on with creating exploits?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 10 2019, @02:41AM
What will China do without PowerPoint slides?
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Rich on Monday December 09 2019, @04:15PM (10 children)
I wanted to submit this, but saw it was already on the shortlist.
The Chinese can succeed at this. Over a decade ago, I met a Chinese student who studied automotive technology and business here in Germany. 6 foot Han guy. Definitely made the impression that the party would approve of him. He had absorbed every bit of knowledge, which I thought is what you can expect after you make the kids learn their 6000 characters in "frontal" education (and that wouldn't work any other way, no consideration for special snowflakes). He did not appear very creative or entrepreneurial to me, though.
Last year, I ordered some PCBs with assembly in Shenzhen. These guys go into business like into a sports competition they want to win, and learn it by doing. And around that, cottage industries spring up with creative minds. I don't doubt that by mixing this attitude with the strong MINT education, they easily have the manpower to do whatever they want with software. They could assign hinterland universities with creating Office or Adobe suite equivalents and they'd get them within the desired timeframes.
The only thing that might stop them would be some 70+ concrete-headed old-school communist as lead of the undertaking, or internal party quarrels. Also, they have no taste (in our eyes anyway), and whatever we get is always a bit of hit & miss.
Meanwhile, in the West, politicians fed from the teats of the big monopolies do everything to keep their revenues flowing. Particularly for Germany, it would have been advantageous to mandate FLOSS. The German mentality is probably the one with the strongest urge to contribute to such projects, as can be witnessed by the contributor lists. It would have been a gamble, but one that over time, by pure statistics, would have brought the lead in software technologies. Had that happened, the West would have had at least something understandable within the shared cultural realm (e.g. roughly every German speaks English, and you would've gotten all the documentation). Instead, the German politicians mumble something about a "united Europe", which translates to "paying money to French cliques".
With TTIP they would've had eternally outlawed the possibility of going FLOSS. ("How about software?" - "Oh, you're worried about the chlorinated chickens?" - "I was more worrying about the lines that mandate to consider closed monopoly software and forbid requiring open source in govt. purchases." - "Well, if we negotiate hard, maybe we can do something about the chlorinated chickens, possibly something with labeling them, only if everyone agrees, of course").
Now the Chinese present the bill. The interesting stuff will not have English documentation. You already see that with electronic component datasheets, where the really inexpensive stuff is Chinese-only. As an individual, you might be able to get something through LCSC and an online translator of your choice, but as business of significant size, you're out. And have lost the ability to compete, for good.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @04:41PM (3 children)
On your note about what might stop them, the Chinese political system is very different in two big ways:
1) One of the main things they are now looking for in party members is now charisma, social, or other soft skills - but raw engineering and technical ability and education.
2) There are age caps. Politburo (the most powerful political body in the country) face mandatory retirement at 68 years old, and new members must also abide the age cap - though that rule does not apply to the president.
The thing I find most disconcerting about this all is that they make no secret of this whatsoever and the rest of the world can see what they're doing. I think they're going to continue to pull ahead of the world because of these sort of changes. They're building a mostly unified technocracy with a political base increasingly made up of engineers and scientists, while we have an increasingly divided democracy led by charismatic idiots and demagogues primarily with law degrees. Oh and of course they have literally well over a billion more people than us.
We seriously need to reboot our political system, but the powers that be have done a hell of a great job of making sure that never happens by causing mass divisions within society. People hating each other tends to preclude them working together.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday December 09 2019, @05:37PM (1 child)
Was one of these "now"s supposed to be a "not"? I'm not following why there's a "but" in this sentence.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @05:40PM
Yip, second one. Was hoping context would clarify. Let me add some random sentence here so I can post this message. Hrm. Still not going. Can I post now?
How weird, have I hit some sort of a word filter with some weird combination here?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by legont on Monday December 09 2019, @11:34PM
Let me paraphrase this. Chinese system is by nature Confucian. One could do some reading about it, but the basics are simple. A good child takes a test and gets to a good school. A good bureaucrat takes a test and gets a promotion.
Yes, there are violations and corruption and whatever, but the system makes the simple rule I described the mail goal. The smartest goes up.
Everybody knows it and studies as hard as possible.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 09 2019, @06:58PM (3 children)
In the late '80s I got drunk with a bunch of Chinese Uni students - they were both humble and extremely nationalistically prideful at the same time "we are not the best today, but one day soon we will be!"
They have the population numbers, they have the work ethic, everybody on the planet has access to higher education now, they have the physical resources - they might screw it up socially (over-exploiting the workers), environmentally (obvious), and if they actually start a hot nuclear war they're going down, but... if they make it another 50 years without a serious meltdown, I do believe that China will be grinding the West into a fine powder - making the US then look like the UK looks today.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @10:52PM
making the US then look like the UK looks today.
*sigh* Everybody has it so backwards. The US is Pinky. The UK is the Brain!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by legont on Monday December 09 2019, @11:37PM (1 child)
Agree, but it is 10 years, not 50; 20 the most.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 10 2019, @02:04AM
In 10 years we'll know it's inevitable, but it will take another 40 before we're learning Mandarin so we can get jobs as wait staff in any good restaurant in major US cities.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @10:04PM (1 child)
Those are the four largest groups of contributors I have seen, in order. Germans/Russians have been at the forefront since the 80s, formerly in cracking/scene/niche software development, but more and more in open source in the years since. America had a head start in open source in the early days, mostly due to more contribution favorable licensing, but it has been slowly decreasing as fewer people have the disposable income for side projects (the ones left who do are higher functioning individuals, some simply driven, and others with substance abuse problems, but amazing minds.) In the meantime, lots of chinese have graduated and joined in on contributing to open source since certain areas have loosened restrictions on the great firewall, or sent more of their people abroad. Where it used to be primarily hk/tw residents contributing to code, now it's as often mainlanders, many of whole have gone on to become open source corporate employees.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Rich on Tuesday December 10 2019, @01:26AM
Don't forget the Scandinavians, who, by the number of contributors per inhabitant, are huge as well. (A honourable mention for "rest of the world" goes to Brazil, at least in my subjective perception.)
As for the Chinese, I think some of the "makers" from the Shenzhen area might grasp the importance of a software community (while for the major part they just trample over the GPL, see the M-Tester, for example). The others merely understand that they can't sell their stuff to Westerners if they don't (at least look like they) play ball, and maybe an understanding that software quality and conformity is part of the overall value they want to get paid for. Have a look at how the Allwinner/Sunxi stuff developed over time.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by loonycyborg on Monday December 09 2019, @04:32PM (2 children)
I wonder how would they treat opensource projects? Most of them feature contributors from all over the world, including US.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Monday December 09 2019, @11:39PM
The begging bowl model would be seen as parasitism in China.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by legont on Monday December 09 2019, @11:40PM
My bet is, they will be fine with anything that by design can't be sanctioned.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @04:54PM (10 children)
I have it on very good authority that trade wars are good and easy to win! See? [twitter.com]
Unsurprisingly, articles like this prove that China is playing an entirely different game than we are. Not the first time this has happened to the United States. Trump is trying to play checkers (can't say he's smart enough for chess), and the Chinese are playing xiangqi or if we're lucky weiqi.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @05:14PM (2 children)
He's not smart enough to play checkers either.
(Score: 3, Funny) by barbara hudson on Monday December 09 2019, @05:22PM (1 child)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday December 11 2019, @12:58AM
The Pogo comic once had a checkers game in which the checkers were cookies. You tended to lose if you ate your own cookies.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @06:56PM (4 children)
No, Trump's entire purpose was to destabilize the US. It has become painfully clear he is a Russian asset, willingly or not. He has no morals, he has no loyalty, this has been easily observed to anyone paying attention to his actions rather than his twatter feed.
People will cry/laugh in the coming years wondering how the fuck the country as a whole didn't kick that fat hyena out.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by HiThere on Monday December 09 2019, @07:17PM (1 child)
I *suspect* he's a Russian agent, whether willingly or not. (Possibly willingly, as he appears to love dictators.) But he could just be a stupid egomaniac who was raised as a gang boss.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 10 2019, @02:12AM
He's a stupid egomaniac, and probably doesn't realize the extent to which he's being used as a Russian agent- and definitely enough of an egomaniac to not care when people point it out to him. He wants to be tough like a gang boss, he wants people to like him, but after 70 years of being a clueless blowhard clown, I think he's pretty comfortable with his foot being so far in his mouth that he can scratch his vocal cords with his toes.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @08:55PM
Regarding destabilization: It's the fucking Jews. It's always the Jews. As for Russia: we should be allying with them. We will need their help with the Mongoloids.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 10 2019, @02:37PM
And then they will remember that the alternative was Hillary. There is no winning move.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 10 2019, @02:08AM (1 child)
The Chinese play 圍棋 (Weiqi) a game of patience, calculation, and careful expansion.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11 2019, @05:56AM
lol yes these patient cautious long-game players certainly are not crazy gamblers, they're investors.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @05:24PM (16 children)
I'll caveat this by saying that China is a Communist Dictatorship, so they can move with the speed and efficiency hard to imagine (although of course that results in steamrolling over numerous things, for both better and worse).
That being said... are they crazy? Is this even possible?
I'm picturing if somebody like Microsoft said, "in the next 3 years, we are going to completely replace all our Intel CPUs with AMD ones throughout the company." That's a fairly straightforward and benign change (they are both x86/AMD64 compliant), but I'm not convinced it it would be possible.
China government is far bigger than Microsoft, and switching from foreign hardware (are there any foreign equivalents to AMD/Intel?) is a much more invasive change, as well as software.
Am I being crazy here, or is this just... crazy posturing? (Or maybe the first step that nobody really believes, but sets a strategic objective which may result in the objective 20 years from now?)
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @06:20PM (12 children)
I'd take another angle here. China obviously knew that, sooner or later, the US would become an enemy. We're top dog and China is becoming the new top dog. The US is not going to accept this without a fight, perhaps literally. Consequently, dependence on US tech was obviously a short-term solution since it's the sort of thing that would eventually be used as leverage against China. So this may be a decision to execute a long foreseen strategy rather than an out-of-the-blue imperative.
One thing that seems to hint at this is that the article suggests 20-30 million pieces of hardware would need to be replaced. That seems like a lot until you consider that there are 90 million members in the state party. And that's just considering the government, not public institutions which are also to be 'cleaned.' Seems like a really low figure for what should ostensibly be a huge endeavor.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @06:42PM
"20-30 million pieces of hardware"
Ebay's gonna be fun for the next few years.
Cheap systems and parts for all!
Shipping might be a little high.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday December 09 2019, @08:59PM (10 children)
I really hope you're wrong about that bit, as there is no way the US could win that fight. China wouldn't win either, and we would all lose.
Fortunately the monied class who run the US make too much money from China to allow a shooting war to happen, (I hope).
(Score: 2) by legont on Monday December 09 2019, @11:54PM (9 children)
There is only one strategy the US could implement successfully. It was designed long time ago by Brits.
In a nutshell, to provoke an internal instability and then break the country into a few rich coastal republics and poor commodity center.
Beijing, off course, knows it well, which explains it's internal policies.
I believe the US would be willing to risk a nuclear war on this path.
Why the US might think China will fold? Well, a lot of Chinese are now rich and don't want any confrontation and OK with whoever will be the boss. They might lean toward the biggest phsyco out there. Besides, Soviet Union did fold and so some nuts believe themselves invisible. It probably will be a game of chicken in the end.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday December 10 2019, @12:25AM (8 children)
Holy shit! Really? Surely Mutually Assured Destruction would stop that ever happening?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 10 2019, @01:56AM (7 children)
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 10 2019, @02:16AM (6 children)
MAD works about as well as the ability of any side in the conflict to set off a nuke close to an opponent's major city.
I'm pretty sure the Chinese could get one off, maybe two - not enough to prevent massive retaliation, which will _probably_ prevent them from starting anything.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday December 10 2019, @03:58AM (2 children)
Chinese have strictly no first strike policy. In fact their nukes are not even deployed, but stored for a retaliation strike. They plan to take the attack, then dig out the nukes and retaliate. This policy gives them a rather unique capabilities. For example, they could send a ballistic missile into a Trump Tower on Manhattan without fear of triggering all out nuclear war; not right away at least. That's because everybody knows the load is conventional.
Don't ask for links, please, but consider it an "opinion";)
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 10 2019, @04:55PM (1 child)
About as reassuring as a new home warranty backed by a salesman in a cheap suit, who you know is on his way to the airport never to return but you don't know where he's going.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11 2019, @03:53PM
It's still more sane and reassuring than the US system where Trump can launch nukes if he has a bad day and nobody is legally supposed to be able to stop him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/01/no-one-can-stop-president-trump-from-using-nuclear-weapons-thats-by-design/ [washingtonpost.com]
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/11/19/no-one-can-prevent-trump-using-nuclear-weapons-experts-say/878673001/ [usatoday.com]
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/14/could-anyone-stop-trump-from-launching-nukes-the-answer-no.html [cnbc.com]
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a24113/presidential-authority-nuclear-weapons/ [popularmechanics.com]
https://www.snopes.com/ap/2017/11/13/anyone-stop-trump-launching-nukes-answer-no/ [snopes.com]
There are some who claim he can't but if you bother to look carefully it's just wishful thinking. Based on the system he really can. All the people down the chain are only supposed to confirm that the order is from Trump, not whether the order makes sense or that Congress etc agree with it.
On the bright side, he does seem to do some checking: https://www.rawstory.com/2019/08/trump-told-his-administration-to-check-if-he-can-stop-hurricanes-with-a-nuclear-bomb/ [rawstory.com]
China's leaders are probably intelligent and competent enough to realize that the USA has enough nukes to wipe out all the nice places in China they are living in. So it's the end of their nice lifestyle if they start a nuclear war. They even have their own farms supplying them safe food ( https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-party-has-its-own-safe-food-supply-in-china_1498024.html [theepochtimes.com] ).
I suspect if Trump gets impeached it might affect his lifestyle a bit. He probably wouldn't nuke the world before that, but how sure can you be?
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday December 10 2019, @05:20AM (2 children)
It's the Americans who elect nut jobs and give them the sole power to launch a first strike.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 10 2019, @04:57PM (1 child)
I sincerely hope that's not really the case, just something we say to keep the other side nervous. As for reality, the only proven reality is history, and nobody's accidentally launched a nuke in anger yet.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday December 10 2019, @05:26PM
Well hopefully we'll never find out. It does seem China mostly has a 2nd strike capability and would rather build high speed rail then lots of nukes.
Right now the scariest nation is Pakistan, tactical nukes deployed and quite a bit of autonomy for the local commanders. Only good thing, if you can call it good, is that a war there is unlikely to escalate beyond the Indian subcontinent.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @07:05PM
Apple did this several times, and the CPUs weren't even compatible.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by HiThere on Monday December 09 2019, @07:28PM
No. China is not and has not been Communist. It's a complex oligarchy, and probably more like a revived Mandrinate with an Emperor who has had his powers trimmed back considerably. Whether or not he's a figurehead would require more knowledge than I have to determine. It's got a bit of Communist rhetoric to replace the Confucian rhetoric, but that doesn't make it a Communist government any more than the prior government was Confucist.
There is a difference now that the peasantry is given at least lip service consideration. And often more. But it's consideration of "the good of the people" rather than "the good of this individual person". This may be quite reasonable, as governments are quite bad at helping most individuals, and frequently succeed when they try to help most people. Consider the difference between "work to eliminate polio" and "work to give each person who needs it a heart transplant". (OK, that's not a good example. But I don't think there *can* be a good example, the only things they have in common is that they require lots of resources and they help at least some people. Yellow fever might be a better example than polio, but it's more distant [and I'm not sure it would be better].)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @10:03PM
Least hypothesis is that it is posturing equivalent to Trump's "ordering" businesses to seek alternatives to China, to force U.S. attention back to developing a meaningful "Phase 1" agreement. You know, the one Trump advertised like it was a done deal and yay team for getting the agreement and then revealing that it likely wouldn't be completed before end of year. (with a silent "if then" implied...)
Greater hypothesis is that they meant every single word of it and that they think they have all the pieces ready to be put into play.
(Score: 2) by nobu_the_bard on Monday December 09 2019, @07:18PM (3 children)
There's been a counter-ban by the US:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/12/09/china_orders_ban_on_us_computers_and_software/ [theregister.co.uk]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by nobu_the_bard on Monday December 09 2019, @07:20PM (2 children)
Nevermind, I was wrong. I didn't read the article just reposted what I saw someone say was in it. That's what I get.
Don't see a way to delete/edit it so I'm stuck.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11 2019, @06:03AM (1 child)
I've never seen anyone touche themselves. Do you like toucheing yourself?
(Score: 2) by corey on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:13AM
In impressed that he got +4 Insightful for it.
I write the occasional comment which I hope will be upvoted but it barely moves off +2!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @07:29PM (5 children)
Good luck with that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @07:38PM
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @09:14PM
Those lucky bastards. It is the dumbfucks like you who think you can't live without them that is the biggest problem. I'm assuming you must be a PHB if you think you are stuck bound to those pieces of software. Either that, or someone too afraid to get out of their comfort zone.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday December 09 2019, @10:15PM (2 children)
Linux SolidEdge MasterPDF LibreOffice
And that's before considering that China can field its own state run development offices for anything that there really isn't a major alternative for. They don't have the same rules you do about what they can throw nation-state level resources at.
Be careful what you wish for - they might just do it.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Gaaark on Monday December 09 2019, @11:34PM
Here's hoping: Windows must die...Office must die.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 10 2019, @02:31AM
As a sovereign, I take it that China can do whatever they need to do, regardless of stuff like patent and copyright.
(Score: 3, Informative) by stretch611 on Monday December 09 2019, @10:59PM
... in China. =)
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Gaaark on Monday December 09 2019, @11:29PM
Get rid of Windows and office and let's get Linux moving forward: let's hope China says "Hey! You do business with us, you drop the Windows formats. You use Linux."
Fuck Microsoft. Fuck office.
Fuck Microsoft.
Fuck Microsoft.
Sell your shares.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CUaSQBHgH-0 [youtube.com]
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 10 2019, @05:56AM
After everything the megacorps had done in damaging their own countries' economies and promoting censorship worldwide, all in the name of "Chinese market", it gladdens my black heart to see them now thrown out like used condoms they are.