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posted by janrinok on Thursday January 16 2020, @01:35PM   Printer-friendly
from the do-you-want-to-play-a-game? dept.

CNN

300,000 jobs lost A report from Moody's Analytics [PDF] says that the trade war with China, which started in early 2018, cost 300,000 jobs through September, based on an economic simulation. While it's hard to know exactly how many jobs losses can be attributed to trade tensions, the Moody's report isn't the only one that suggests the duties are having an effect on US workers. A survey of businesses by staffing firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas found that trade difficulties were cited as the reason for more than 10,000 job cuts in August alone. And an analysis by the Tax Foundation also suggests the trade war will result to job losses in the long-run.

American importers paid an extra $46 billion in tariffs Trump is wrong when he claims that China is paying the tariffs. The cost of the tariff comes directly out of the bank account of an American importer when the good arrives at the port. US companies have paid $46 billion more in tariffs than they would have without Trump's tariffs, according to an analysis of government data by the free-trade coalition called Tariffs Hurt the Heartland...

Tariffs cost US consumers Several studies show that tariffs end up costing US families. JPMorgan Chase said that the tariffs imposed in 2018 cost the average household $600 a year.
A separate report, from researchers at the NY Fed, Princeton, and Columbia University, estimated that those tariffs would cost households even more: $831 annually. Their research also considered the cost of shifting supply chains to avoid paying the tariffs

....

Manufacturing takes a beating Trump has often argued that his tariffs are boosting the American manufacturing sector, but the industry is in a slump. In December, a measure of manufacturing activity weakened to its lowest point in more than a decade. Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that just 46,000 net manufacturing jobs were added in 2019, an increase of less than 0.5%. While there are likely a lot of factors at play, a recent paper from economists at the Federal Reserve showed that the tariffs are certainly dragging down the sector.


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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by SpockLogic on Thursday January 16 2020, @01:54PM (21 children)

    by SpockLogic (2762) on Thursday January 16 2020, @01:54PM (#943968)

    The Serial Liar in chief will announce that this is "WINNING" and the sheeple will lap it up.

    Had enough of this "WINNING" yet?

    --
    Overreacting is one thing, sticking your head up your ass hoping the problem goes away is another - edIII
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:23PM (4 children)

      by Thexalon (636) on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:23PM (#943976)

      Earlier this week, he claimed that the deal he had signed with China was a big win for himself, and that these deals were proof that he was the greatest president ever. The Chinese officials spent the speech standing there trying to suppress smirking, most likely because they got everything they wanted (including but not limited to ensuring that there was no rule saying they couldn't steal trade secrets from American companies by hacking into their computer systems).

      As far as I can tell, the process for playing the president like a fiddle goes like this:
      1. Start a conflict where he feels like he can't just bully his way out of it with his usual combination of threats and childish insults.
      2. Get him emotionally invested in getting a deal. He won't care whether the deal is any good, just that there is one.
      3. In the negotiations, tell him what you want in a way that it sounds like you're making concessions. In fact, you're getting exactly what you want.
      4. Let him announce it as a big win for himself. Let him think that he got what he wanted and is the greatest negotiator ever.
      5. Periodically send him notes or phone calls telling him how awesome you think he is.

      Kim Jong Un did exactly this. So did Xi Jinping. So probably did Vladimir Putin. And I suspect other world leaders have taken note.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:35PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:35PM (#943979)

        Any negotiation with Trump has to follow two rules,

        1 don't trust Trump on keeping to any deal.
        2. it only needs to make Trump look good, nothing else matters

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:07PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:07PM (#944102)

        So probably did Vladimir Putin.

        Actually, I'm guessing that Tiny Hands is Putin's bitch. Vlad doesn't need to do any grovelling with Trump.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:59PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:59PM (#944156)

          Putin's faithful Triumpverate: Trump, Sanders, Gabbard

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @04:08AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @04:08AM (#944408)

          And Trump's making Putin look like Trump's his puppet. Who's the puppet now? Not that anyone's a puppet.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:20PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:20PM (#944006)

      The Serial Liar in chief will announce that this is "WINNING" and the sheeple will lap it up.

      It's been said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Since the administration of Bill Clinton, we have been doing the same thing over and over with respect to trade. China is playing to dominate and win. Our leaders, including Trump or any others, need to realize that the status quo is no longer acceptable.

      Pulling the Band-Aid off is going to hurt but it needs to be done on occasion.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:25PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:25PM (#944146)

        Yeah -- we aren't going to be able to fix the issue with the unfair trade deals Democrats and DINOs pushed at the expense of the middle and working class without short term problems. The goal is to get to a better position in the long term, but to let things slide, long term consequences way worse than short term consequences.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @03:04AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @03:04AM (#944373)

          > The goal is to get to a better position in the long term,

          A noble goal for sure (not sarcasm, I agree with your statement). Playing the long game is the way to win for any country.

          However, If you think that Trump cares about anything past the next election, I have a bridge to sell to you.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @11:03AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @11:03AM (#944487)

            This is the generation of globe spanning multinationals. The Dremopublicrats are successfully selling to the people that they are doing things in their best interest, when just like the CEO of a major corporation they are saying everything is fine while fleecing the company's long term prospects dry for short term profit and preparing to jump out of the nosediving aircraft with their golden parachutes and land somewhere with a new corporation or government to embed in and fleece from ad nauseum.

            Wait and see. Or better yet, realize and act.

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday January 16 2020, @11:37PM (3 children)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 16 2020, @11:37PM (#944301) Journal

        Since the administration of Bill Clinton, we have been doing the same thing over and over with respect to trade.

        And this is a result you want to change... exactly why?

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @01:00AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @01:00AM (#944340)

          The usual idea is that blue collar jobs are being sent overseas which is destroying the middle class and increasing wealth inequality.

          Really, this is just another aspect of the Cantillon effect though. The US citizens are closer to the newly printed money than people in china, india, etc, so it is more expensive to pay them. It is easier to set a minimum wage and let the government/taxes deal with the fallout.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @05:31PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @05:31PM (#944613)

          Where do I begin? Let's start with the horrendous trade deficit with China. Or the technology/IP transfer requirements to operate in their markets. Or market dumping. Or currency manipulation. or (functionally) slave labor. Or offering our manufacturing base as a sacrificial lamb while permitting foreign countries to flout environmental problems. Or national security concerns when we can no longer cover our own needs when the companies close or move overseas. (5G, rare earths, ICs) How did energy dependence work out for us in the 70's through the 2000's? The left is still screaming about Middle East intervention being the result of a thirst for oil. It has been going on for 50 years.

          Arrogant assholes like to look down at blue collar people as "They took our jerbs" types without thinking about how foreign dependence on mining and manufacturing hurts everyone. So yes. We need to level the playing field. If you don't like protectionism, you need to convince trading partners to drop their protectionism too. Wagging fingers and pleading for them to behave better has not worked, no matter what prior administrations or their lackeys think.

          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday January 18 2020, @07:01AM

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 18 2020, @07:01AM (#944897) Journal

            Arrogant assholes like to look down at blue collar people as "They took our jerbs" types without thinking about how foreign dependence on mining and manufacturing hurts everyone.

            China or not, if you think that blue collar jobs are going to last forever (as a source of income able to keep you in the middle class) and that "that's a good thing™"... the future will have some nasty surprises for you [mining-technology.com]. You can't live forever like your parents did and still think of progressing. Inevitable someone else is going to get better than you, even if you rely on protectionism.

            So, what gives? Perhaps the middleclass really needs to up its game and the society need organized in such a way that the middle class actually has the opportunity to do it?

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Captival on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:17PM (6 children)

      by Captival (6866) on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:17PM (#944053)

      Record high stock market. 50 year best unemployment numbers. No WW3. Every prediction Libtards make is wrong yet somehow they're still completely full of themselves. The best part is how they autisticly dance between blaming Trump for every single bit of economic news they don't like while simultaneous giving O'Muslim all the credit for everything good that happens, even when they predicted a recession would happen every year for the last 4. Meanwhile, Iran lies about the plane crash, lies about shooting it down, lies about letting Canada in to investigate, lies AGAIN about the US 'cyberhacking' their missiles to cause it - and despite the constant parade of lies, still blames Trump for breaking O'Traitor's nuclear agreement that Iran wasn't even complying with in the first place [apnews.com]. Maybe Trump should have sent them another planeful of cash like the last guy, nothing Liberals love more than directly supporting terrorists who kill Americans [iranobserver.org].

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:23PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:23PM (#944120)

        Sorry, your lack of knowledge and belief in fantasy is not curable. Enjoy your delusions.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @09:12AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @09:12AM (#944468)

          Can’t refute anything: Orange Man Bad! Can’t you see!?!

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by SpockLogic on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:50PM (3 children)

        by SpockLogic (2762) on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:50PM (#944152)

        "Donald Trump gets impeached — 63 Canadians die."

        --
        Overreacting is one thing, sticking your head up your ass hoping the problem goes away is another - edIII
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @12:14AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @12:14AM (#944322)

          Ya but a lot were Iranian terorists so it is totally ok!! /s

          I wish we could see the alternate reality where Obama did all this, conservatives would make our liberal anger look like tea time.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by stretch611 on Friday January 17 2020, @11:18AM (1 child)

          by stretch611 (6199) on Friday January 17 2020, @11:18AM (#944494)

          He got impeached over using his office to promote his own personal interests over the best interests of the country. (and ofc, denied it.)

          Desperate for a win, he killed a Iraq General (admittedly a scumbag... but we would be pissed if a foreign nation killed our scumbag commander in chief.)

          in other words, to deflect the news cycle over his impeachment, he promoted his own personal interests over the best interests of the country. (and once again denied it; using a ficticious threat to our embassies.)

          --
          Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @08:25PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @08:25PM (#944217)

      He was right about one thing.

      He said they would do so much "winning" we would be sick of it.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:02PM (44 children)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:02PM (#943970)
    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:47PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:47PM (#943985)

      I see Trump is a secret environmentalist.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:25PM (7 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:25PM (#944009)

        The earth has never failed to warm under a Democrat president since records began, under Republicans it warms/cools 50% of the time. ALL net warming has been under democrats: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/tempByPres.png [columbia.edu]

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:08PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:08PM (#944103)

          Who is going around marking facts troll? Do you deny that all net warming has been under democrats? Because that is what the data says.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:21PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:21PM (#944142)

            Who do you think? The site is teeming with DNC plants. They mod Troll when their feelz are hurt.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday January 16 2020, @08:14PM (4 children)

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday January 16 2020, @08:14PM (#944205) Journal

          Thanks for reminding us that correlation != causation.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:31PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:31PM (#944244)

            This is 100% correlation != causation

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @12:48AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @12:48AM (#944334)

            Your nightly dirty thought: "Trump can change my climate anytime"

          • (Score: 4, Touché) by dry on Friday January 17 2020, @03:18AM (1 child)

            by dry (223) on Friday January 17 2020, @03:18AM (#944379) Journal

            The correlation is that Republicans crash the economy, which results in fewer greenhouse gases being output. Think of the years following the 2008 crash, greenhouse gas production dropped and as the economy recovered, greenhouse gas production went up.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @04:40AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @04:40AM (#944419)

              You are getting warmer...

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:59PM (34 children)

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:59PM (#943997) Homepage Journal

      Yes, that would pretty much be their primary purpose. With China being the primary focus and everyone else being incentivized to pressure China to stop playing silly buggers. Trade wars always hurt everyone. Who can more easily take the pain and who's more willing to continue the game of Chicken is what decides who is going to eventually win.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by shrewdsheep on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:02PM (33 children)

        by shrewdsheep (5215) on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:02PM (#943999)

        Yes, there will be a victor. Have you heard of a so called phyrric victory by chance?

        • (Score: 4, Touché) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:05PM (27 children)

          by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:05PM (#944001)

          Have you heard of a so called phyrric victory by chance?

          No, but I've heard of a pyrrhic victory.

          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:04PM (26 children)

            by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:04PM (#944037) Journal

            What is "pyrrhic" to the socio/psychopath? A win is a win. The bigger problem is that these kind of people win elections. Majority rule has been weaponized.

            --
            La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
            • (Score: 3, Informative) by HiThere on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:38PM (25 children)

              by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:38PM (#944123) Journal

              No. The US doesn't have majority rule, it has plurality rule. Majority rule would require that the candidate get more than 50% of the votes, not "the largest number". Of course, the electoral college means that we also don't have plurality rule for president, but I'm not convinced that that is bad. But we do have plurality rule for selection of the candidates, and for senators, representatives, governors, mayors, etc.

              FWIW, I don't think majority rule would fix things, but it would be an improvement. It does, however, require an implementing mechanism, like Instant Runoff Voting or it would be a continual cycle of elections.

              Personally, the lobbying or, as I prefer to call it, the bribing of the candidates, has so corrupted things that I've essentially given up on voting as a solution and prefer sortilege. (i=I.e., selecting the officials by lottery from an extremely large pool of candidates. My preference is that the pool include everyone legally qualified to vote and hold office.)

              --
              Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
              • (Score: 2, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:56PM (7 children)

                by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:56PM (#944130) Journal

                plurality rule

                A distinction without a difference, a superficial matter. The government we have is by popular choice. If something is wrong, people are supposed to correct it, not try to capitalize on the disaster.

                Yes, lottery and conscription are viable solutions. Working in the government should be treated as community service, like jury duty, not a life long career with special privileges and benefits. You serve, then it's back to the farm.

                --
                La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by HiThere on Friday January 17 2020, @12:03AM (6 children)

                  by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 17 2020, @12:03AM (#944314) Journal

                  Sorry, but majority and plurality are extremely different. If a majority is required then the selected candidate my convince over half the voters that his choice is correct, and the opinions of minority groups cannot be ignored. With three parties and plurality voting a candidate could win with 34% of the votes. That is, of course, an extreme example, but it validly demonstrates the difference.

                  --
                  Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
                  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Friday January 17 2020, @01:58AM (4 children)

                    by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday January 17 2020, @01:58AM (#944348) Journal

                    Without three parties, as in the US, the difference is nil. Hell, in the US, there are hardly two parties in any kind of opposition. And that is by popular choice. 95%, that's pretty popular.

                    --
                    La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday January 17 2020, @06:12AM (3 children)

                      by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 17 2020, @06:12AM (#944431) Journal

                      If third parties were meaningful, they would become significant.

                      --
                      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
                      • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday January 17 2020, @06:32AM (2 children)

                        by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday January 17 2020, @06:32AM (#944434) Journal

                        They are as meaningful as the voters make them. The voters make the system what it is.

                        --
                        La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday January 17 2020, @12:51PM (1 child)

                          by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 17 2020, @12:51PM (#944509) Journal

                          Sorry, but no. The voters are *PART* of what makes the system what it is. The structure of the system, however, plays a very large part also. If you can see that voting 3rd party will not affect the result, you are quite likely to not vote that way, which may result in you voting for "the lesser(?) of two evils". If the candidate needs acceptance by more than half the voters, the decisions will often come out differently.

                          There is the problem that majority rules systems, like Condorcet or Instant Runoff, have a heavily increased burden of information.

                          --
                          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
                          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday January 17 2020, @06:50PM

                            by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday January 17 2020, @06:50PM (#944655) Journal

                            The voters approve of the structure and have to power to change it as they wish. Or they can keep on voting "strategically" for their lesser evil and continue the decline. It is still their choice. They either make it happen or let it happen.

                            --
                            La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                  • (Score: 2) by dry on Friday January 17 2020, @03:34AM

                    by dry (223) on Friday January 17 2020, @03:34AM (#944387) Journal

                    Actually with 3+ parties, the winner can win with less then 34% of the vote, at least for elections with districts where you can win a majority of districts with 1% more votes and lose the rest with no votes and another party winning close to 100% of votes.

              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:39PM (15 children)

                by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:39PM (#944149) Journal

                FWIW, I don't think majority rule would fix things, but it would be an improvement. It does, however, require an implementing mechanism, like Instant Runoff Voting or it would be a continual cycle of elections.

                The surest way to guarantee we have another civil war, is to make it so NY, LA, SF, Chicago, Tampa and Seattle get their way every single time and thereby essentially disenfranchise vast swathes of the nation. You see this on the state level, Virginia being an example right now, where a metropolitan center decides to go full bully because it can. The reason it can is because on the state level there is nothing equivalent to the US Senate, all state senates being based on population since Reynolds v. Simms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims [wikipedia.org] Sixty years ago the effect wasn't so bad, but as time has moved on and cities have sprawled, that case has helped fuel a partisan divide that is becoming insurmountable in some states -- a divide created when one party realizes it can do a tyranny of the majority thing and quit negotiating.

                Yeah I get the whining about "why should some hick's vote in buttFuckNowhere count more than mine?!" Because apparently the founders realized that when people feel unrepresented and their views repressed, they get uppity. The Founders addressed that by engaging in a little enlightened self-interest to keep everyone on board. That's been forgotten, and after it has been forgotten at scale for a long enough duration, expect chaos.

                • (Score: 4, Interesting) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:39PM (11 children)

                  by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:39PM (#944248)

                  Yeah I get the whining about "why should some hick's vote in buttFuckNowhere count more than mine?!

                  Because that is not whining, it is a valid question.

                  Why should Wyoming, with 500,000 people have the same number of senators as California, with 40,000,000 people? Does it not matter if it is Californians who feel unrepresented?

                  How about the people of North Carolina?

                  "North Carolina Republicans won 10 of the 13 seats in 2016, when Democrats got 47 percent of the statewide vote. In 2018 Republicans took nine, with one seat undecided, even though Democrats got 48 percent of the overall vote. (Excluding one district where a Republican ran unopposed, Democrats’ share in 2018 was 51 percent.)"

                  This is enlightening. [wikipedia.org]

                  “I propose that we draw the maps to give a partisan advantage to 10 Republicans and three Democrats because I do not believe it’s possible to draw a map with 11 Republicans and two Democrats,” David Lewis, a Republican state representative who led the redistricting effort, said at the time.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @02:32AM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @02:32AM (#944359)

                    It is obvious from your post you do not live in America. You live in some other country that America dominates. Republicans vs democrats is totally irrelevant.

                  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Friday January 17 2020, @04:03AM (8 children)

                    by hemocyanin (186) on Friday January 17 2020, @04:03AM (#944404) Journal

                    Because, as I said above: enlightened self interest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self-interest [wikipedia.org]

                    Enlightened self-interest is a philosophy in ethics which states that persons who act to further the interests of others (or the interests of the group or groups to which they belong), ultimately serve their own self-interest.

                    Because if you repress and oppress a group of people long enough and hard enough, they revolt in dangerous, expensive, and disruptive ways. Especially Americans. Just ask Great Britain.

                    • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Friday January 17 2020, @09:04AM (7 children)

                      by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Friday January 17 2020, @09:04AM (#944463)

                      What is enlightened about:

                      “I propose that we draw the maps to give a partisan advantage to 10 Republicans and three Democrats because I do not believe it’s possible to draw a map with 11 Republicans and two Democrats,” David Lewis, a Republican state representative who led the redistricting effort, said at the time.

                      I can see the self interest bit though.

                      • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday January 17 2020, @04:10PM (6 children)

                        by hemocyanin (186) on Friday January 17 2020, @04:10PM (#944573) Journal

                        The "enlightened" part is understanding that a slim majority leaves a very large minority who, if they feel repressed enough, can say "fuck it, I got no stake in this thing anymore, let's burn it down."

                        The disenlighted position is yours, the "suck it up buttercup and follow my orders" position. Right -- that's a recipe for social stability. /s

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @05:58PM (1 child)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @05:58PM (#944625)

                          Ah yes the age old oppression from that War on Christmas and the South American Caravans of Death!

                          Oooooh, you probably are referring to all those MEAN WORDS like racist, homophobic, and ignorant. So because you're in the conservative minority you feel it is better to disproportionately give yourself more power? And you really don't see how fascist that is?

                          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by hemocyanin on Friday January 17 2020, @07:17PM

                            by hemocyanin (186) on Friday January 17 2020, @07:17PM (#944675) Journal

                            I'm not a conservative, never have been. I am simply able to understand why it is in the __self-interest__ of Person A, to give Person B some of what they want. The Founders understood that too, hence the EC and Senate structure.

                            But whatever -- pile on the self-righteous scorn and oppressive policies (a form of force) and do not be surprised if the situation you create is one where instead of negotiation and enlightened self-interest ruling the day, it's a force v force, power v power, type circumstance. You should also take note that there are more types of force and power than having a majority voting block, most of them extremely undesirable.

                        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Saturday January 18 2020, @04:18AM (3 children)

                          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Saturday January 18 2020, @04:18AM (#944870)

                          So a large minority should dictate to the majority?

                          OK then. That should work out fine.

                          • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Saturday January 18 2020, @06:03AM (2 children)

                            by hemocyanin (186) on Saturday January 18 2020, @06:03AM (#944890) Journal

                            I don't think you can understand what enlightened self-interest means. This is where you do something not to your immediate benefit, so you can benefit long term. What you propose, disenlightened self-interest, is to be a bully because you can and because it feels good now. Perhaps you believe that will lead to greater stability. I don't.

                            • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 19 2020, @07:10AM (1 child)

                              by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 19 2020, @07:10AM (#945223)

                              What you're talking about has nothing to do with enlightened self-interest.

                              You're happy because your side has control.

                • (Score: 2) by dry on Friday January 17 2020, @03:40AM (2 children)

                  by dry (223) on Friday January 17 2020, @03:40AM (#944392) Journal

                  So the fix for 2 wolves and a sheep sitting down to decide what's for dinner is to have 1 wolf with 3 votes and 2 sheep with one vote each to sit down and decide what's for dinner.
                  I think that might even be more of a recipe for civil war as the majority are being oppressed.
                  The real problem is how political tribalism has been increasing, which results in a lack of compromise. No compromise and one side is going to be very pissed instead of both sides being mildly pissed.

                  • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday January 17 2020, @04:04AM (1 child)

                    by hemocyanin (186) on Friday January 17 2020, @04:04AM (#944406) Journal

                    People only compromise when they have to. When they don't have to, you get a tyranny of the majority. This tyranny is being played out in a number of states right now, and it will lead to chaos.

                    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by dry on Friday January 17 2020, @04:16AM

                      by dry (223) on Friday January 17 2020, @04:16AM (#944414) Journal

                      Mostly agree except the majority part where tyranny of the minority also happens, big example is Trump, who won with a minority of votes. Lots of examples of gerrymandering too where district borders are carefully written to give a minority power.

              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by dry on Friday January 17 2020, @03:30AM

                by dry (223) on Friday January 17 2020, @03:30AM (#944384) Journal

                prefer sortilege. (i=I.e., selecting the officials by lottery from an extremely large pool of candidates. My preference is that the pool include everyone legally qualified to vote and hold office.)

                Yep, be like winning the lottery to be chosen. Hookers and blow while serving and a guaranteed good paying job afterwards to replace the one you lost while serving and all you have to do is vote the way you're told.

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:54PM (4 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:54PM (#944096) Homepage Journal

          It's not pyrrhic if it's absolutely necessary. Or were you trying to say we would have been fine running a massive trade deficit with China plus having them subsidizing any local economic interests that we might actually beat them on? Free trade only works if it's free on both ends.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Informative) by HiThere on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:40PM (3 children)

            by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:40PM (#944125) Journal

            It would be necessary if it would do the job. Since it won't, then it's not necessary, but only damaging.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
            • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:48PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:48PM (#944127)

              You are arguing with a closet Trumper, really no point.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @09:17AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @09:17AM (#944469)

                Never argue with a heretic. Science! Bless you, zir.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 17 2020, @05:05PM

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 17 2020, @05:05PM (#944595) Homepage Journal

              You're letting perfect (and willfully obtuse) be the enemy of good. A solution doesn't have to solve a problem completely; if it solves half of it that is a necessary component to solving any of it, it is a good solution.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
  • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:49PM (5 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:49PM (#943987)

    Americans are already paid too highly, even the minimum wage is sickeningly high, while people elsewhere are more than happy to work at $5/hr, why can't America? Imagine how much the average househould could save by reducing labor costs incurred on goods and services.

    • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:13PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:13PM (#944112)

      Americans are already paid too highly, even the minimum wage is sickeningly high, while people elsewhere are more than happy to work at $5/hr, why can't America?

      I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you try living on $5/hr for a year or two? Then come back and report on how that went. We'll wait.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by hemocyanin on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:42PM (1 child)

        by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:42PM (#944150) Journal

        I strongly suspect, but could be wrong, that the GP post was sarcastic.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @08:22PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @08:22PM (#944213)

          I think the title may be a hint that you are right...

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:31PM (1 child)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:31PM (#944179) Homepage

      Go back and stay back and fix your own fucking country, Rodrigo.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:43PM

        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:43PM (#944253)

        If Rodrigo came from any Central American country, he would probably love to fix his own country.

        The problem being that every time he tries, the US sends in the Marines.

        Often because of this. [wikipedia.org]

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:52PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:52PM (#943992)

    How many jobs have been lost and how many communities have been destroyed by the status quo?

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:00PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:00PM (#943998)

    Idiotic central planning has pushed enough people into having IRA's in order to keep up with inflation that its all that counts now. All Trump needs to do is keep pumping the stock market and they will feel will feel richer and richer. Meanwhile the fake news lies about how awful things are.

    Fake trade wars/deals don't even matter. It's all fake, just like the fake Iran war. Remember recently when the local DNC parrots got so riled up and scared so I told them nothing was going to happen? Do they even remember they were wrong, yet again?

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:02PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:02PM (#944036)

      The art of the fake trade deal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TreR5K2B9No [youtube.com]

    • (Score: 1, Redundant) by DeathMonkey on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:26PM

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:26PM (#944174) Journal

      Remember recently when the local DNC parrots got so riled up and scared so I told them nothing was going to happen? Do they even remember they were wrong, yet again?

      I guess you mean OTHER than the 176 civilians who died. That sounds like something to me.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by EEMac on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:20PM (12 children)

    by EEMac (6423) on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:20PM (#944007)

    Multiple [tradingeconomics.com] sources [forbes.com] report December was fine-to-great for manufacturing jobs. CNN finds a juuuust slightly negative index and reports it as a recession. Great job there.

    Also, be sure to click the link in TFA [cnn.com] to see the hilarious expression on the CNN reporter!

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:46PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:46PM (#944020)

      Also Democrats criticized Trump for cutting taxes
      And criticize for raising taxes:
      >American importers paid an extra $46 billion in tariff
      And these importers are mostly rich multinationals

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:31PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:31PM (#944075)

        It's not taxes when Republicans raise them.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:58PM (3 children)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:58PM (#944190) Journal

        Also Democrats criticized Trump for cutting taxes
        And criticize for raising taxes:

        Yes, I'm sure this is all very confusing to you. So, let me explain: we want to lower taxes on normal people and raise taxes on huge corporations.

        Trump lowered taxes for the huge corporations and raised taxes on the normal people. Which most people think is a bad thing.

        So, for example, this is a bad thing: Trump Tax Cut Hands $32 Billion Windfall to America’s Top Banks [bloomberg.com]

        • (Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:33PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:33PM (#944245)

          My taxes are way lower under Trump than Obama.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @03:15AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @03:15AM (#944377)

            Billionaire spotted!! Didn't know that you would bother to mix with us plebes...

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @04:14AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @04:14AM (#944412)

              Mine dropped substantially as well -- about $8000. I'm no billionaire, not even a millionaire. I barely make it into six figures.

    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:11PM

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:11PM (#944044) Journal

      My dog! How can anybody listen to that?! I couldn't do 30 seconds. That's a scary dude!

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 4, Informative) by c0lo on Thursday January 16 2020, @11:01PM (4 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 16 2020, @11:01PM (#944293) Journal

      Federal Reserve Board, Washington, D.C. - Dec 23, 2019 [federalreserve.gov]

      This paper provides the first comprehensive estimates of the effect of recent tariffs on the U.S. manufacturing sector. A key feature of this analysis is accounting for the different ways that tariffs could affect manufacturers in the presence of global trade and supply chain linkages. On the one hand, U.S. import tariffs may protect some U.S.-based manufacturers from import competition in the domestic market, allowing them to gain market share at the expense of foreign competitors. On the other hand, U.S. tariffs have also been imposed on intermediate inputs, and the associated increase in costs may hurt U.S. manufacturers’ competitiveness in producing for both the export and domestic markets. Moreover, U.S.trade partners have imposed retaliatory tariffs on U.S. exports of certain goods, which could again put U.S. firms at a disadvantage in those markets, relative to their foreign competitors. Disentangling the effects of these three channels and determining which effect dominates is an empirical question of critical importance.
      ...

      4. Conclusions
      We find that the 2018 tariffs are associated with relative reductions in manufacturing employment and relative increases in producer prices. For manufacturing employment, a small boost from the import protection effect of tariffs is more than offset by larger drags from the effects of rising input costs and retaliatory tariffs. For producer prices, the effect of tariffs is mediated solely through rising input costs.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @03:06AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @03:06AM (#944374)

        So, you still trust in the federal reserve that has been robbing you and your ancestors for 3 generations? Maybe I should close my shorts...

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Friday January 17 2020, @03:24AM (2 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 17 2020, @03:24AM (#944382) Journal

          So, you still trust in the federal reserve that has been robbing you and your ancestors for 3 generations?

          I don't know how it could rob me, not me and certainly nor some other 7.5B people in this world are US subjects.

          But to answer you, I trust them more than I trust EEMac or an AC posting on Soylentnews, yes.
          Be it for the simple reasons the authors have their real name put up on TFA, showing they are willing to stand by what they wrote.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @06:40AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @06:40AM (#944436)

            I don't know how it could rob me, not me and certainly nor some other 7.5B people in this world are US subjects.

            I see... So there are still more suckers to be had. Please post to SN when you figure it out.

            On second thought, I can't leave it at that. So btw, if you ask will explain it to you plainly in a few sentences.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @07:59AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @07:59AM (#944449)

              took too long. out.

  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:45PM (18 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:45PM (#944019)

    They bitch about 300,000 jobs supposedly lost, but we have the lowest unemployment since EVER. Well, since we started keeping records, which goes back into the 1960s at least.

    They purposely mislead on who is paying tariffs. Suppose an item was $400, with the American paying that to the Chinese. We add a tariff of $100, the Chinese ends up getting $320, and the American ends up paying $420. (realistic numbers for this trade war) Does it really matter who happens to hand over the tariff to the US government? Any reasonable person would say that the American has paid $20 and the Chinese has paid $80, even if the American is handing over the full $100. The Chinese was forced to discount the item in order to avoid factories going idle and bankrupt, which is effectively the same as handing over money to the American and/or his government.

    If manufacturing jobs increase by 46,000 in the face of advancing automation, the workers are doing mighty well. It's an increase when you'd expect a decrease.

    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:57PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:57PM (#944034)

      They've hitched their wagon to jerking off the democrat base to make their money, coasting on their reputation of once being a reputable news source under Ted Turner.
      When Trump is reelected this November, it will be interesting to see whether their owners will keep up the act, or command a change in tone to conform with popular opinion.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:40PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:40PM (#944124)

        The popular opinion that has more people in favor of removing Trump than keeping him in the impeachment?
        The popular opinion that had Trump in second place by overall vote count in the last election?
        I'm not saying Trump can't get re-elected. But Fox News only has the advantage that those who want to believe the lies are more rabid about their watching habits, is all. Any other sane measurement shows America pretty close to evenly divided, which is the real problem.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:55PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:55PM (#944129)

          Where are you getting the idea those are popular opinions?

          Only idiots like you answer polls, you aren't a majority.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:37PM (14 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:37PM (#944122)

      And anyone who has half a brain knows current unemployment numbers are bullshit, because they only count number of new claims filed. They don't cover someone who lost their job three years ago and is now off of benefits, would still work if they could find an opportunity but cannot get hired anywhere for whatever reason. Such a person is invisible unless one does studies like this.

      And you don't understand jack about tariffs, either. Even if your numbers are nice you are still now paying $20 more for the product than you were. And no, what discounts have to be applied on the seller's end depends on how much in demand the product is. But what you're really clueless about is that the other side in turn has dropped a $100 charge on a different item. Let's say food. So, even by your own logic the American seller has now had to discount their rates by $80 but will raise prices $20.

      So who won in the net trade war? Nobody. Because the other side launched proportionate tariffs against the idiot stupid enough to start a trade war.

      EXCEPT.... maybe China's more centralized economy means they can say, "Yeah, we'll just get our pork and soybeans elsewhere...." For example... [reuters.com]

      EXCEPT.... maybe now the small farmer can't afford to discount his product $80 because he's already behind the 8 ball in hock to the bank for his farmland. He needs that full $80 just to stay even. But the other side isn't buying. So the farmer gets foreclosed on. And he commits suicide. That the phase one deal is signed and now pork is back at a straight $400 doesn't matter - the farmer is still dead.

      EXCEPT.... which side can deal with deprivation better? Hint: It ain't the U.S.

      • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:48PM (7 children)

        by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 16 2020, @05:48PM (#944126) Journal

        It's not that simple, though you raise valid points.

        The important thing to notice is that manufacturing hasn't been coming back to the US, it's been going to Indonesia, or Viet Nam, or Mexico.

        There's a question, however, as to how long this will matter. If the plants become fully automated, or only require a couple of people, labor costs will cease to matter, and jobs provided will evaporate. There will still, of course, be property taxes...

        I think Trump is grandstanding, and that he didn't expect to get a substantive win. But he expected to get, say, the coal miners, thinking that he was working on their behalf. And he may have done so.

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:03PM (6 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:03PM (#944134)

          Why is it considered a good thing to have a boss? People would be better off "unemployed" and growing their own food and building their own habitats, etc.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:39PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:39PM (#944148)

            The "funny" thing about working for a company is, no matter how incompetent the business, its management, and its employees seem to be, they are machines that make money, some of which you get to keep.

            If you wanted to start your own business, you would have to surmount that HUGE hump to get to the point where others are willing to reliably pay for your services. If your customers and line of work are "irregular" in any manner, you may even have to defend your business against violence.

            If you want to be a "free man on the land", how are you going to make money to buy a plot? If you try to grow stuff, how will you protect your crops against inclement weather, weeds and pests? How will you pay for the taxes your government will levy against you for nominal protection against your neighbors? Will the government let you build your own shack, or will they attach conditions that you need cash money to satisfy?

            What happens when you get old and cannot keep up with growing your own food anymore? A job lets you save for old age and whatever else life brings. I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing to stay under a boss.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:04PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:04PM (#944160)

              The solution to all your problems is: Buy bitcoin now and trade it for fiat later when you need it.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:43PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @07:43PM (#944184)

            My grandparents did that 75 years ago in West Virginia.
            It's called subsistence farming, and it leads to a life of poverty. So poor, in fact, that you jump at getting a job at the coal mine.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @10:45PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @10:45PM (#944284)

              It is only subsistence if you cannot produce enough to sell for profit.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @04:14AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @04:14AM (#944413)

                Well that would be almost all of us, so...

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @05:53PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @05:53PM (#944622)

                Since professional small business farmers with all the latest equipment still can't compete with the mega-corporate farms your point is instantly refuted. The capital required to get a modern and profitable small farm running is rather significant.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:15PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:15PM (#944138)

        Unemployment numbers count people, not claims. They count people who looked for work in the last couple weeks. If somebody who lost his job three years ago is looking, he counts. If he wasn't looking but then feels better because Trump fixed the economy, he might start looking again, so then he counts again. If the economy looks good enough for people to be less discouraged, the numbers can look worse because of all the people who start looking again.

        The $20 is a small price to pay for helping American workers. The full $100 goes into the federal budget, reducing our tax burden or letting the government spend more. (we can even compensate our farmers for any retribution) Americans can compete to supply the item; this is easier with the higher market price.

        China mostly can't get soybeans elsewhere. Sure, they will try, but the USA is the large supplier in the northern hemisphere. Trump is also working with Brazil to choke China off from southern hemisphere supplies.

        The discounting is not just about demand. It's also about the producer's elasticity. Idle factories are not free. Loans must be paid. Shutting down and then restarting is not free of consequence. The relative amount being paid ($80 vs. $20) shows that the relative elasticity favors the USA.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:18PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:18PM (#944141)

          I meant to reply to HiThere, not myself.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @12:09AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @12:09AM (#944321)

          You are terrible at math. Where does that extra $20 come from? Thin air? Nope. The consumer pays it.

          As far as your theory that "China" is discounting things in order to meet market prices:

          I recently priced a made in China piece of gear. It was exactly 30% more expensive than before the tariffs. How is that only a 5% increase by your estimate.

          See? My anecdotal evidence is just as good as yours.

          TLDR, you don't know what you are talking about, and you are yanking figures straight out of your ass.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @02:58AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @02:58AM (#944371)

            European financial firms study the US-China issue. They seem pretty impartial. According to them, for an average item the US consumer pays 19% of the tariff. (which I rounded to 20%)

            If I'm yanking figures straight out of my ass, but they come from Europe, my ass must be Europe. Are you saying my ass looks big?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:36PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @09:36PM (#944246)

        Look at the "no, and no" comment for why. The original comment with the $400 example was fully correct.

        The one unemployment number that ought to be getting "worse" is labor force participation, mainly because boomers are retiring. That isn't clearly a sign of a bad economy. I guess people getting old is bad, but Trump has nothing to do with that. Labor force participation also goes down when people go to school or become full-time mothers, both of which can be wonderful. Every other unemployment number shows that Trump delivers miracles that had been thought impossible.

      • (Score: 2) by dry on Friday January 17 2020, @03:53AM

        by dry (223) on Friday January 17 2020, @03:53AM (#944402) Journal

        A lot of those jobs are basically being servants, something that doesn't pay well. Dog walkers, delivery drivers, lawn mowers, maids and such.
        Lots of jobs that don't pay a livable wage is worse then lots of jobs that pay well and is likely unsustainable, especially with how much money the government has to borrow to subsidize those crappy jobs.

(1) 2