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posted by martyb on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:36AM   Printer-friendly
from the why-wait-until-AFTER-the-election? dept.

Facebook Braces Itself for Trump to Cast Doubt on Election Results:

Facebook spent years preparing to ward off any tampering on its site ahead of November's presidential election. Now the social network is getting ready in case President Trump interferes once the vote is over.

Employees at the Silicon Valley company are laying out contingency plans and walking through postelection scenarios that include attempts by Mr. Trump or his campaign to use the platform to delegitimize the results, people with knowledge of Facebook's plans said.

Facebook is preparing steps to take should Mr. Trump wrongly claim on the site that he won another four-year term, said the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Facebook is also working through how it might act if Mr. Trump tries to invalidate the results by declaring that the Postal Service lost mail-in ballots or that other groups meddled with the vote, the people said.

Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook's chief executive, and some of his lieutenants have started holding daily meetings about minimizing how the platform can be used to dispute the election, the people said. They have discussed a "kill switch" to shut off political advertising after Election Day since the ads, which Facebook does not police for truthfulness, could be used to spread misinformation, the people said.

The preparations underscore how rising concerns over the integrity of the November election have reached social media companies, whose sites can be used to amplify lies, conspiracy theories and inflammatory messages. YouTube and Twitter have also discussed plans for action if the postelection period becomes complicated, according to disinformation and political researchers who have advised the firms.

[...] The preparations underscore how rising concerns over the integrity of the November election have reached social media companies, whose sites can be used to amplify lies, conspiracy theories and inflammatory messages. YouTube and Twitter have also discussed plans for action if the postelection period becomes complicated, according to disinformation and political researchers who have advised the firms.


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:52AM (12 children)

    by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:52AM (#1041515) Journal

    Facebook should shutdown for a couple of months

    --
    La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:01AM (6 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:01AM (#1041518)

      Facebook should be shut down.

      FTFY

      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:20PM (5 children)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:20PM (#1041732) Journal

        Definitely no unconstitutional suppression of free speech with that plan!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:30PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:30PM (#1041738)

          All of a sudden standing on top of a beer crate yelling, isn't fine enough anymore for free speech.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by VanessaE on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:30PM (1 child)

          by VanessaE (3396) <vanessa.e.dannenberg@gmail.com> on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:30PM (#1041739) Journal

          It wouldn't be unconstitutional as Facebook isn't a government entity. Private businesses are subject to laws pertaining to dangerous speech (fire, theater) and to discrimination, but NOT to 1A. Of course, that can be either good or bad, depending on your point of view.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:55AM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:55AM (#1041928) Journal

            but NOT to 1A.

            They are, if they're acting as proxies for government at any level. I suspect they are, if they receive funding as well from the same governments, just like colleges and universities often are.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by meustrus on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:30PM

          by meustrus (4961) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:30PM (#1041801)

          It would be unconstitutional if Trump did it, acting as the president.

          It would not be unconstitutional if private citizens decided to boycott the platform, or if the platform itself decided to suspend operations.

          None of that is going to happen. Facebook's goal here is ultimately to convince people that it isn't the dumpster fire of psychological manipulation that it truly is. As such, they must carefully balance the power that they provide, for a fee, to psychological manipulators like Trump, against the potential fallout should people on either side decide that the danger is greater than the benefits of remaining on their platform.

          None of that has anything to do with law, political bias, or even civic duty. It's all about placating user concerns without substantially curbing the power of their ad partners to influence the way users think, spend, and vote.

          --
          If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 27 2020, @11:37AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 27 2020, @11:37AM (#1042627)

          Depends on how you go about it. If you pass strict enough privacy laws, Facebook could be run out of business.

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:30PM (1 child)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:30PM (#1041575) Journal

      I would like to have a hubris measuring device. Maybe iPhone can do that, now that it can detect diabetes. But, let's stand Trump and Zuck side by side in front of the hubrisometer. The odds makers in Las Vegas would either make a fortune, or lose it.

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:04PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:04PM (#1041671)

        I thought the iPhone WAS a hubris indicator?

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:04PM (2 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:04PM (#1041593) Journal

      I read this conversation, commented on it, then looked at my news feed. Top of the list:

      https://sputniknews.com/uk/202008251080274053-facebook-accused-by-uk-officials-of-trying-to-influence-policy-by-hiring-government-insiders/ [sputniknews.com]

      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:24PM (1 child)

        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:24PM (#1041799)

        Of course you would have Pravda Sputnik News in your news feed, wouldn't you?

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:39PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:39PM (#1041804) Journal

          Yes, of course I would. I also have Alternet in my newsfeed. You won't see many submissions from Alternet, though. At LEAST 950 articles out of every 1000 are batfuck mad-dog crazy at Alternet. If it rains on a picnic, it's Trump's fault. If a wolf eats a duckling, it's Trump's fault. That damned Trump right NOW has not one, but TWO tropical storms brewing in the Gulf of Mexico.

  • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by krishnoid on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:03AM (29 children)

    by krishnoid (1156) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:03AM (#1041519)

    People: There's a chance that Trump might cast aspersions on the election results. Not sure how to react to this, considering there are so many possible ways his team could complain about the results.
    Millenials, inexplicably into improv: Hold my mojito.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by MostCynical on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:54AM (22 children)

      by MostCynical (2589) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:54AM (#1041526) Journal

      The people who use terms like Millennial and boomer like that seem to be throwing shade, if not out right disrespecting the "labelled other".

      Zukerberg himself is 36 [wikipedia.org], so he is a Milllenial [soylentnews.org]

      but so what?

      Are you upset some group of people is dealing with something, trying to deal with something? Would you be upset if they did nothing? Are you just jealous they have the energy, time, and company support? Are you just bitter that you don't have the time and energy, so all you can do is complain on a small internet forum?

      --
      "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:28AM (20 children)

        by PiMuNu (3823) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:28AM (#1041532)

        Quite. Ditto with "woke", "boomer", "SJW", etc. Labelling everyone facillitates lazy arguments like "you are wrong because you are a boomer/sjw/alt-right".

        I get shadows of it in UK occasionally in the news media and on here. It seems to be some sort of weird US political thing. Or maybe a friendface thing?Then again, I dont use twitbum, maybe that is it.

        • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:58AM (12 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:58AM (#1041540)

          Yes, somebody should put these words on a blacklist. Wait...

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:57PM (10 children)

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:57PM (#1041589) Journal

            Words like "blacklist" have been blacklisted. You should not say blacklist because it is offensive.

            --
            People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
            • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:15PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:15PM (#1041600)

              Stop mansplaining!

              • (Score: 4, Funny) by PiMuNu on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:44PM

                by PiMuNu (3823) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:44PM (#1041691)

                Men are so sexist.

            • (Score: 3, Funny) by VanessaE on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:38PM (4 children)

              by VanessaE (3396) <vanessa.e.dannenberg@gmail.com> on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:38PM (#1041746) Journal

              Those responsible have been blacklisted. Mind you, the SJW's insistence on this can be pretty nasty. We apologize again for the fault in the media. Those responsible for blacklisting the people who decried "blacklist", have been blacklisted.

              (with no apologies to Monty Python folks ;-) )

              • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:42PM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:42PM (#1041784)

                Just mentioning Monty Python will get you a mod funny from me.

                • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:31AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:31AM (#1041911)

                  From the Ministry of Funny Mods?

                • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday August 26 2020, @03:22AM

                  by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @03:22AM (#1041973)

                  I did further down and I got an "offtopic" mod.

              • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:45AM

                by Mykl (1112) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:45AM (#1041924)

                (mind you, Blacklists kan be pretti nasti)

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by RandomFactor on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:59PM (1 child)

              by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:59PM (#1041863) Journal

              Actually, 'whitelist' and 'blacklist' were changed to 'safelist' and 'blocklist' in some filtering products years and years ago.

              --
              В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
              • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:33AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:33AM (#1041914)

                And then evolved to AmericaGreat list and MooslimTerrists.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 27 2020, @02:43AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 27 2020, @02:43AM (#1042513)

              So we need to blacklist: "blacklist".

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:11PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:11PM (#1041673)

            I'm pretty SJ-y (I don't think I'd say SJW, but I will point out injustices when I see them).

            That said, I still face palm when people say that using the term Blacklist denigrates black people.

            1520s, "to sully or stain" (the reputation, character, etc.), from Latin denigratus, past participle of denigrare "to blacken; to defame," from de- "completely" (see de-) + nigr-, stem of niger "black" (see Negro), which is of unknown origin.

            https://www.etymonline.com/word/denigrate [etymonline.com]

            You... you just did the thing that you said not to do...
            Then again, maybe in English there just isn't a way to avoid conflating black and bad, we have been doing so for so... so long.

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @12:38PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @12:38PM (#1041555)

          Don't worry dehumanization is only stage 4 in the 10 stages to Genocide.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:32PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:32PM (#1041741)

            I love Genocide I have all their albums!

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday August 25 2020, @12:57PM (3 children)

          by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @12:57PM (#1041558) Journal

          It's not the labels that are to blame, but rather thinking that slinging around labels constitutes an argument. Else, without labels we'd be dealing with a great deal more discursive confusion, wherein instead of saying, say, "American," we'd be running through multiple descriptions for all the factors that describe what that label sums up.

          And, lest we fall into the conceit you hinted at, that slinging labels is an exclusively American practice, we must acknowledge that all cultures, languages, and peoples use labels as linguistic shorthand. Consider the slur "chav" and then ask yourself if Britons are really so innocent of this practice as you suppose.

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:04PM

            by PiMuNu (3823) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:04PM (#1041559)

            > Consider the slur "chav" and then ask yourself if Britons are really so innocent of this practice as you suppose.

            Fair point - it may just be that I am out of touch with the young folks of today.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:36PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:36PM (#1041743)

            Though you most centainly do have a thing with symbols and virtue signalling. I mean what's up with all your bumperstickers and yardsigns?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:48PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:48PM (#1041749)

              Oh crap, I looked up "virtue signalling". I didn't mean it to be pejorative as it said in the dictionary. Please insert other neutral word.

        • (Score: 2, Offtopic) by RS3 on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:56PM

          by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:56PM (#1041668)

          Extremely good insight. My take is that we (US colonists) use English language differently. I had an ancestor who was a fairly famous linguist. If he was still around, I'd love to get his take on the interaction between language, usage, diction, etc., and sociology / general social and cultural behavior / personality. For what it's worth, I prefer the British way, love "Britcoms", Monty Python, Dr. Who, etc. Many here (Americans likely?) misunderstand sarcasm / subtle humor (that I love), which forces me to be more vigilant about what I write (if I write at all...)

      • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:52AM

        by krishnoid (1156) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:52AM (#1041536)

        More along the lines of narrative- and/or topic-based scenario-planning/response (e.g., improv) in addition to technical responses/scenario planning.

    • (Score: 3, Troll) by zocalo on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:02AM

      by zocalo (302) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:02AM (#1041528)
      Facebook: "Pass me some more nails! I don't think the lid on the coffin of any possible claim we might have to supporting freedom of expression is secure enough yet!"

      Seriously, has anyone *NOT* got this message yet?
      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by driverless on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:30AM (4 children)

      by driverless (4770) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:30AM (#1041549)

      Facebook Braces Itself for Trump to Cast Doubt on Election Results

      Oops, looks like half the headline is missing, it should have read:

      Facebook Braces Itself for Trump to Cast Doubt on Election Results Unless he Wins, In Which Case the Result is Rock-solid

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:28PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:28PM (#1041572)

        Yeah -- tell us about that Mrs. Clinton -- or are you Rachel?

        • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:29PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:29PM (#1041651)

          Yeah -- tell us about that Mrs. Clinton -- or are you Rachel?

          Haha. All the 'biased' people you're pointing out would literally be quoting him. Gonna need a new strategy, bud.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:40PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:40PM (#1041613)

        You're almost there:

        Facebook Braces Itself for Trump to Cast Doubt on Election Results Unless he Wins, In Which Case Facebook, the Media, and Hollywood Celebrities to Cast Doubt on Election Results.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:05PM

        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:05PM (#1041831)

        No, the headline should be:

        Facebook Braces Itself for Trump to Cast Doubt on Election Results because he did it last time, even though he won

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by aristarchus on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:12AM (7 children)

    by aristarchus (2645) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:12AM (#1041521) Journal

    But where, say some, is the King of America? I’ll tell you, friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the Royal Brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honours, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the Charter; let it be brought forth placed on the Divine Law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the King is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other. But lest any ill use should afterwards arise, let the Crown at the conclusion of the ceremony be demolished, and scattered among the people whose right it is.

    Sic Semper Trumpanius.

    However, it matters very little now what the king of England either says or does; he hath wickedly broken through every moral and human obligation, trampled nature and conscience beneath his feet, and by a steady and constitutional spirit of insolence and cruelty procured for himself an universal hatred. It is now the interest of America to provide for herself. She hath already a large and young family, whom it is more her duty to take care of, than to be granting away her property to support a power who is become a reproach to the names of men and christians—YE, whose office it is to watch the morals of a nation, of whatsoever sect or denomination ye are of, as well as ye who are more immediately the guardians of the public liberty, if ye wish to preserve your native country uncontaminated by European corruption, ye must in secret wish a separation.

    Yep, liberal founding fathers, not these corporate whores of the 1% and Faux News! Time to impeach Trump again, to throw his tea into the harbor, to ensure his son never have a place of graft and privilege in the future, and to hunt down all the Loyalists this time. They will not be fleeing to the Socialist Great White North of Canada.

    Entire pamphlet, Common Sense" [libertyfund.org], available at this wacko libertariantard website. (They do some good. )

    • (Score: 0, Interesting) by hemocyanin on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:30PM (3 children)

      by hemocyanin (186) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:30PM (#1041576) Journal

      ensure his son never have a place of graft and privilege in the future

      Is Hunter paying any child support yet to the stripper mamma out of that Ukraine graft?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:20PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:20PM (#1041730)

        Buttdry male! We got a buttery male here!! One more and we can get the unwatchable buttery boof off.

      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:15PM (1 child)

        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:15PM (#1041839)

        Hunter Biden is just the latest in a long line of hard drinking, skirt-chasing members of your ruling class.

        Most presidents have had one of these around them, from Billy Carter, to Michael Reagan, to Roger Clinton, to George W Bush, who you guys actually elected as president, despite him being a lazy fool.

        Hunter Biden is no doubt a huge embarrassment to Joe, but he won't be given a role in the White House, as "Senior Advisor" because he is obviously useless, just like the various Trump children and children in law.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:38AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:38AM (#1041918)

          World peace dude. You forget that he solved world peace.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by dry on Wednesday August 26 2020, @03:49AM (2 children)

      by dry (223) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @03:49AM (#1041982) Journal

      Yet, what really pissed off the Americans, especially the real-estate people, was that nasty King and his Royal Proclamation of 1763, where he said all his subjects were equal, even the non-whites and worse, the Papists and not to steal the natives land. The rich real-estate developers like Washington riled up the people with stories of unfair taxes and such, had a war of separation which they called a revolution, won when the mother country was busy with European wars and proceeded to steal the best part of a continent from its owners to bring them freedom.
      You should remember all that Aristarchus, or were you busy elsewhere?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @05:20AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @05:20AM (#1042005)

        He's probably not into historical revisionism. Oh wait...

      • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday August 26 2020, @08:54AM

        by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @08:54AM (#1042037) Journal

        But, I was referring to the King of America, the Trump, and his real estate dealings. Was busy elsewhere during the American Revolution, since it did seem to be a minor political movement, and, as you point out, inherently conservative in orientation.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Bot on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:26AM (9 children)

    by Bot (3902) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:26AM (#1041523) Journal

    I see finally FB woke up to possible political interference, good. (this space reserved for jokes about zuckerberg the hypocrite admitting to censor whoever he...er... it doesn't like already)

    I'd say that Trump, being already the president, and having much more to gain by interfering BEFORE the election than AFTER it, should have been already considered as a threat.
    So either FB is led by slow people, or they selectively publish results of meeting, which counts as propaganda, or this piece is propaganda itself, BAD TRUMP WANTS TO HURT US HALP.

    Ummm ok? next?

    --
    Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:19PM (1 child)

      by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:19PM (#1041601) Journal

      Sorry, but BOTH sides have a lot to gain by interfering before the election. Trump is in a stronger position to do the interfering, and shows fewer qualms about being seen to be obviously interfering. And may also have more to lose.

      That said, it's hard for a company that thrives on malicious gossip to regulation malicious gossip that it dangerous to it.

      --
      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:36PM

        by Bot (3902) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:36PM (#1041783) Journal

        >Sorry, but BOTH sides have a lot to gain by interfering before the election

        I'd agree, basically the whole world has a lot to gain by interfering before the election, note though that my focus was on the before vs after election, not the possible interfering actors.

        --
        Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:02PM (6 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:02PM (#1041670)

      This all begs the question: what is not election interference? It should be self-evident that news "media" very strongly influence elections. Since FarceBork and others are now part of "news media", and they're censoring this and that, I say they're all influencing people. Nobody can possibly read all sources of news to try to get a fair balanced view of what's really going on.

      Here's a great example of very very very biased one-sided "reporting":

      https://hosted.ap.org/thetimes-tribune/article/cec9a8b5675416a3e326bba2079a0ea8/trump-convention-blurs-official-business-and-politics [ap.org]

      AP at it again- editorializing but presenting it as "facts" and "reporting".

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:42PM (3 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:42PM (#1041689) Journal

        Gotta love mixed metaphors.

        President Donald Trump has blown past it with a bulldozer,

        Are we ready for the bulldozer races yet? In all my life, I've only ever witnessed a bulldozer moving faster than about 8 mph once. Two of them, actually. Both were being used for firefighting in Nevada. Back story?

        Was driving along about 80, when a cop car and two trucks whizzed past me, doing at least 120. I caught up with them maybe 1/2 hour later, trucks parked a couple miles apart. First dozer was off the low-boy trailer, and hauling ass into the grasslands, moving fast for a dozer - maybe 20, possibly 25 mph. When I reached the second, the dozer was still backing down off of the low-boy.

        Imagine the rough ride, sitting on a Cat D-9, running across the prairie at that speed. Not fun!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:33PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @11:33PM (#1041848)

          Need this music playing in the background (of Trump's bulldozers charging): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYu7c4Vkmp0 [youtube.com]

        • (Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday August 26 2020, @03:53AM

          by dry (223) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @03:53AM (#1041985) Journal

          Thing with a 'dozer isn't the speed but the momentum. Try stopping one once it's going.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:08AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:08AM (#1042043)

          Runaway has seen bulldozers. I am duly impressed. Has he seen Ducks, though? Black Swans? Has he seen fire, and has he seen rain? Really, you dotardly old coot, we really, really, do not care to hear what you have seen. You are boring, and stupid, and stupid boring. It hurts just to read your shit.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:05AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:05AM (#1042041)

        This all begs the question: what is not . . .

        Oh, fuck, you've done it now! You have used "begs the question" incorrectly, and summoned a horde of aristarchus led grammar nazis upon yourself. May Webster have mercy upon your sole!!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:13AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:13AM (#1042044)

          Really, just read the journal entry [soylentnews.org]. It is all there. Quasi-literate persons are the bane of our days, what with the Nipple and Button, and Thigh-land, the Oranges of the Russia Hoax, not to mention the covfefe, and the, OK, too many examples to recite. Hopefully this will hold off the full wrath of the ancient Greek philosopher, if you mend your weighs, and put a new leash on life.

  • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:56AM (22 children)

    by shortscreen (2252) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:56AM (#1041527) Journal

    Greg Palast has been making the rounds talking about voter disenfranchisement via "interstate cross check". Deep state stooges already said the game is rigged by China and Russia. Dems say it's rigged by Trump. Trump says it's rigged by Dems. Bernie bros were cheated. Tim Canova was cheated. That elections are a dumpster fire might be the only point of agreement.

    And this just in:
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/hillary-clinton-biden-should-not-concede-under-any-circumstances [washingtonexaminer.com]

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @12:50PM (19 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @12:50PM (#1041556)

      I'm currently registered to vote in 3 different States.

      I've lived in 5 different States during my adult life, and each time I moved, I conscientiously changed my driver's licenses and vehicle registration, and registered to vote in my new location. But, although the States were clearly aware that I had moved away (no nagging letters about renewing my license, etc.), most of those States never bothered to remove me from their voter rolls. In one case, I returned to a State I had left a decade earlier, and I was still listed as a registered voter at my old address.

      If you actually want an honest election, then the voter rolls should be cleaned up, but the Democrats always fight against that.

      The second best solution is to verify the identity of the person casting the ballot (Voter ID), but the Democrats always fight against that.

      Now, with (mostly Democrat) States deciding to send ballots to everyone "registered" to vote, I can only assume that, even if the election process is honest, at least two other people (who currently live at my previous addresses) will get ballots meant for me. Let's hope that they are honest enough not to commit election fraud with "my" ballots (even though the likelihood of them getting caught is minimal).

      Of course, the real reason to keep non-elegible voters on the voter rolls is to allow corrupt election officials to stuff the ballot boxes with fake but reasonable votes.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by HiThere on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:28PM (7 children)

        by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:28PM (#1041604) Journal

        You point is valid, sort of. Cleaning up the voting rolls is desirable. Now do it without discriminating against those who are relatively powerless. And *that's* the problem. There is little to no evidence that "people who have moved" are voting in more than one place. The evidence that exists tends to show people being caught trying to vote in more than one place.

        Unfortunately, this is what one would expect whether the practice is common or not. I tend to think it's rare, but this is because I've never known anyone who either did it or wanted to do it. And one thing about electronic voting systems is that those who control the systems are the ones that I suspect of tampering with the elections, if tampering is happening. The times I've checked into it my concerns have been brushed over with "we've already signed a contract with that company", which I didn't find exactly reassuring. Particularly as the company had been shown to have easily penetrable security.

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:38PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:38PM (#1041656)
          (GP poster here)

          Cleaning up the voting rolls is desirable. Now do it without discriminating against those who are relatively powerless. And *that's* the problem. There is little to no evidence that "people who have moved" are voting in more than one place. The evidence that exists tends to show people being caught trying to vote in more than one place.

          First of all, how would we catch people voting illegally when requiring any sort of ID has been made illegal (as it has been in in many, mostly Democrat-controlled areas). In most of the places I've voted, if I could provide a name and address of a registered voter, I could vote as them. If I knew (as the people who actually run the elections would know) that someone would definitely not be voting (because they moved out of state, for example), I would be perfectly safe in filling out a ballot in that person's name. I've looked for information on whether someone else voted as me in those States where I was still illegitimately registered, and that information doesn't seem to be available.

          Secondly, if someone were illegitimately disenfranchised by being removed from the voter rolls, they would know it if they actually tried to vote, and they could complain. For all the hand-wringing about removing legitimate voters from the voter rolls, I've never heard of an actual case of that happening. It's easy to register to vote, and if someone is wrongly removed, it's easy to re-register. I also have never heard of an actual case of someone who was registered to vote but was prevented from voting because they couldn't provide a reasonable proof of their right to vote. All I've ever heard was hyped-up concern over the hypothetical possibility. The examples of voter suppression I've heard about involved physical intimidation. That has been a real problem in some areas, but it has nothing to do with cleaning up the voter rolls or requiring voters to prove their identity.

          Until someone can explain to me how the States will ensure that they don't send out ballots with my name and former addresses on them, I'm going to assume that mail-in voting is just another way to cheat.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by helel on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:18PM

            by helel (2949) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:18PM (#1041709)

            For all the hand-wringing about removing legitimate voters from the voter rolls, I've never heard of an actual case of that happening

            During the 2000 election "News organizations unearthed numerous accounts of law-abiding citizens turned away at the polls because they could not prove their innocence. Several thousand people appealed to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, and half were found to not be felons." [tampabay.com]

            Now that you're heard of it happening and happening in far greater numbers than the total cases of voter fraud in the US [heritage.org], I invite you to join us in fighting to prevent the purge of legitimate voters from voter registration.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:20PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:20PM (#1041731)

            It's easy to register to vote, and if someone is wrongly removed, it's easy to re-register. I also have never heard of an actual case of someone who was registered to vote but was prevented from voting because they couldn't provide a reasonable proof of their right to vote.

            Maybe if you keep saying this enough it will become true /s

          • (Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday August 26 2020, @04:22AM

            by dry (223) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @04:22AM (#1041993) Journal

            Canadian here. Couple of Federal elections back, when the Conservatives were in power, they took advice from the Republicans on how to run an election. Neutered Elections Canada, our independent people who run the election, no power of subpoena, no advertising how to register, no more lists of registered voters in the grocery store etc with some nice old people to help verify if registered and register you if needed. They also tightened up the required ID a lot, we've needed proof when showing up to vote for the longest time but it didn't take much proof, some shitty ID and a bill with your name and address or just sign an affidavit. Suddenly a small list of accepted ID, with current address, great for students who were at university with their parents address on their ID or natives on the reserve where they don't have addresses.
            Only place to look up the voter list was online. My wife is a native and the Conservatives really wanted to suppress their vote so I was suspicious. She uses her maiden name, her ID, the phone and power bills, all in her maiden name. Web site showed her registered under her maiden name. Show up to vote, early, and she's registered to vote in her married name with nothing but her marriage license with that name on it for ID. Took hours for the election people arguing on the phone to Ottawa before she could vote. Luckily we had planned to have hours to wait otherwise her vote would have been successfully suppressed. My son just didn't bother as his ID suddenly wasn't good enough, new ID was $75 and a 60 mile round trip with no bus service.
            Requiring proof of who you are is fine in principal but it is easy to abuse, make the ID requirements strict and targeted. Make it hard to get ID. Change the voters list to not agree with peoples ID. Make alternatives really hard. Many people, especially poor working people just don't have the time to screw around to exercise their franchise.

        • (Score: 5, Interesting) by rleigh on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:41PM (2 children)

          by rleigh (4887) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:41PM (#1041747) Homepage

          In the UK, the local authority running elections in your area posts an annual form through your door which is mandatory to return. You fill out the eligible voters at the address and post it back (which is free), or you fill it out online. Old names are dropped, and new ones are added. So the records are continuously kept up to date. And if you move in between times, you can update the details as needed.

          What is it with the US system that prevents old records from being dropped?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:56PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:56PM (#1041752)

            What is it with the US system that prevents old records from being dropped?

            Budget constraints in postage and man hours to send out those pings as you described?
            Concern that poor people won't post a reply?
            Reluctance to "mandate" a response to a government request that is considered minor, for exercising a voluntary activity?

            There is a process here to clean out old records. Relocations within the county are updated immediately. If voters haven't voted for a couple of years, they need to affirm that they still live at their address. Finally after about 6 years, their entry is purged.

            There is also a notification process for people to report the death of their child, parents, wife, which will purge those entries.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by rleigh on Tuesday August 25 2020, @10:36PM

              by rleigh (4887) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @10:36PM (#1041823) Homepage

              I don't believe that "poor people are less likely to reply" is reasonable. Filling in the details takes less than 5 minutes, and you can drop it into a postbox at your convenience. The postage is prepaid for a reason, so that there is no financial barrier to participation, even if it's just a single stamp. And since you have to send in the details to register in the first place, this really only concerns removals and changes. At least in the UK it's also a civil offence not to return the form; you can be fined for not returning it. It's part of your civil obligations, and this part is not a "voluntary activity" (though voting itself is).

              As for the cost, the voter registration is part of the cost of running a democracy. They are updating the records in different areas all year round, so there's a fixed cost in people and resources. It's already paid for as part of local government running costs.

      • (Score: 2, Troll) by tangomargarine on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:27PM (8 children)

        by tangomargarine (667) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:27PM (#1041647)

        The second best solution is to verify the identity of the person casting the ballot (Voter ID), but the Democrats always fight against that.

        Maybe if the Republicans weren't such dicks about making it hard to get IDs, they wouldn't?

        --
        "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:48PM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:48PM (#1041666)

          And how did the Republicans do that?

          The idea that there are massive number of valid voters who, among other things, can't drive a car, open a bank account, get a job, get on an airplane, travel outside of country (at least if they hope to return), get a prescription for certain drugs, buy a house, etc., etc., etc. is ridiculous.

          I guess there was talk of charging a small fee (~ $2) for a special ID. I know that in my current State, a non-driver ID card, which would be perfectly sufficient to prove the right to vote, costs $2 (and, if I remember correctly, is valid for as long as you live at the same address). The Dems want to spend Billions of dollars to "fix" the Post Office so they can rush through mail-in voting (which has already been a disaster in a number of primary elections). Compared to that, providing everyone who either legitimately couldn't prove their identity, or legitimately couldn't afford the $2, is trivial.

          I'm still waiting for actual examples of these people who are eligible to vote but can't prove it.

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by tangomargarine on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:00PM (2 children)

            by tangomargarine (667) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:00PM (#1041724)

            I guess there was talk of charging a small fee (~ $2) for a special ID. I know that in my current State, a non-driver ID card, which would be perfectly sufficient to prove the right to vote, costs $2

            Yes, but they could even make it free, but it wouldn't matter if the office is only open every-other-Thursday for 3 hours in the afternoon or whatever, and there's a line out the door, so you have to take the day off from your crappy job that doesn't give you vacation. I'm not questioning whether the ID exists, but how easy it is to actually procure one.

            Obtaining ID Costs Money. Even if ID is offered for free, voters must incur numerous costs (such as paying for birth certificates) to apply for a government-issued ID.
            Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.2
            The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.3

            https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet [aclu.org]

            providing everyone who either legitimately couldn't prove their identity, or legitimately couldn't afford the $2, is trivial.

            Oh fuck off

            --
            "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
            • (Score: 1, Troll) by tangomargarine on Wednesday August 26 2020, @03:00PM (1 child)

              by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @03:00PM (#1042174)

              Would love to see whoever modded me Troll defend that decision

              --
              "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @08:10PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @08:10PM (#1042358)

                Welcome to SN, you thought all the people complaining about terrible downmods was 100% false? My very anecdotal opinion is that conservatives got modded troll for pushing rightwing propaganda and got very hurt feelings. Now they go downmodding anything that goes against them as some kind of retribution.

                There is no more appealing to reality, they have drawn their lines over which nothing but their masters can make them cross.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 26 2020, @12:01AM (1 child)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 26 2020, @12:01AM (#1041864) Journal

            Personally, I don't think there should be ANY FEE AT ALL for a state issued photo ID. Driver's license, I can go along with a nominal fee. Plain old ID, no way.

            • (Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday August 26 2020, @04:41AM

              by dry (223) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @04:41AM (#1041997) Journal

              Provincial ID here costs $75, same as a drivers license, which it is very similar to. When the Conservatives made the ID requirements for voting much stricter, my son didn't bother making the 60 mile round trip (doesn't drive and no public transportation) to pay for his ID and so didn't vote.
              Since then the Province has updated our C.A.R.E. cards (needed to access health care) to have picture ID due to too many Americans sneaking in for free health care and they're free and basically required to prove Provincial residency if you don't want to pay for a Doctor/hospital visit.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:49PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:49PM (#1041694)

          Maybe if the Republicans weren't such dicks about making it hard to get IDs, they wouldn't?

          A voter registration card was sufficient ID here, was free, and you needed to register to be able to vote at all.

          • (Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday August 26 2020, @04:49AM

            by dry (223) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @04:49AM (#1042000) Journal

            Was like that here once, then it changed.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:42PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:42PM (#1041690)

        Of course, the real reason to keep non-elegible voters on the voter rolls is to allow corrupt election officials to stuff the ballot boxes with fake but reasonable votes.

        I am a (local) elections official.

        Our district's absentee ballots were requested on voter need (out of town). The envelopes come to our district, and are announced to the public. If someone wants to vote in person, we cancel their absentee ballot, and they vote normally.

        With the mail-in ballots they had done already for the primaries, those envelopes are collected centrally. If a voter comes in, and a mail-in ballot had been issued, we can only vote a provisional ballot. Regardless of whether they say they actually requested one, or they bring in their unopened envelope.

        When voting in person, the voter can spoil his ballot if he makes a mistake and request a new one. With a mail-in, the process is unclear if they can request a new one and have that ballot supersede his previous ballot. Timing is probably critical if possible at all.

        Absentee ballots are counted in our district with local poll watchers being allowed to watch. Mail-in ballots are counted centrally, where the supervision process is unclear, definitely not local, and can have millions of ballots to be processed.

        Mass mail-in voting can lead to requests from people in a position of power forcing voters to show their choices to another person, perhaps even let that person fill out the ballot. Neighborhood ballot collections by people "volunteering to drop them in the mail for them" can let them compare names to political party affiliation and discard those that are "ungood".

        Mail-in ballots sent to people who have moved away can lead to the new residents filling them out.

        Provisional ballots are supposed to be adjudicated by a judge, but can the disavowed mailed-in ballot be removed from the counting? Probably only if the judges make their decision before they are opened (which would have to wait at least until the local districts return their materials with the provisional envelopes).

        In short, I think mail-in voting, as done in this state at least, is incompatible with what I would call a free, fair and open election. The results would only be known days or weeks after, like for the primary.

        Voter ID rules that the republicans were pushing for their benefit were invalidated years ago. I hope the same happens to our mail-in voting process pushed for by the democrats for their benefit.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:19AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:19AM (#1042048)

        Would you be open to possibly selling one of your votes? I have connections with certain very wealthy heads of the Postal Service who would quite gladly pay you for your vote on the day, for a hamburger a few days later.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:01PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:01PM (#1041700)

      Deep state stooges already said the game is rigged by China and Russia. Dems say it's rigged by Trump. Trump says it's rigged by Dems.

      This is easily checked. The state of California is one of 20 states requiring that Facebook hire certain groups to suppress "hate speech". [kiwifarms.net] Dig a little into who [archive.is] is running this state-mandated "Civil Rights Audit" and you'll find out that they are Hamas sponsored by the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office [archive.org] using George Soros as their front man to take the blame, and the United Nations Foundation [foundationcenter.org] (whose board includes Russian ambassador Igor Ivanov) and its "B Team" [archive.is] (also known as Avaaz, Purpose, and SumOfUs [wrongkindofgreen.org]) who are all led by [ngo-monitor.org] a group called al-Shabaka [archive.org] which includes Electronic Intifada, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the BDS movement.

      The Democrats have been rigging the hell out of the election by using foreign agents to suppress any kind of dissent online or offline, paying foreign terrorists to organize their campaigns and attack their political opponents, using the public school system to force children to support them, using the state security services to spy on their political opponents and forward their information on to foreign agents for further action, using religious tests to exclude non-Democrats from employment in government and the private sector, all while openly [mideast-times.com] taking truckloads [foundationcenter.org] of money from Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar, and doing this all under the umbrella of "national security" so the people involved are not allowed to talk about it.

      This leaked from the New York Times [kotakuinaction2.win] which did not consider this newsworthy, possibly because their board member Joi Ito was neck deep in the scam and was mixed up [catbox.moe] with a Saudi spy ring [archive.is] that used to be called the SAAR Network [nationalreview.com]. Clinton and Obama put them in charge of national security and education. This is what Gamergate and Common Core were about. 4chan caught them and was starting to unravel the network. It led straight to the World Jewish Congress and the Rothschilds.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:19PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:19PM (#1041729)

        Meds. Don't forget your meds. Really, they will help you.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:08AM (3 children)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:08AM (#1041529)

    Apply to Trump the same rules that apply to other users: spread FUD and fake news, get kicked out. Easy.

    Oh wait... Trump is better than all of us, he gets to enjoy preferential treatment...

    • (Score: 5, Touché) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:13PM (2 children)

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:13PM (#1041567) Journal

      He is the President of the United States. The holder of that office gets to do all kinds of things you and I don't, like order military strikes, veto legislation, and a whole bunch of other stuff like saying things you don't like.

      But I would rather flip what you're saying and assert that Facebook et al. shouldn't be censoring anyone at all, even Trump.

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:18PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @04:18PM (#1041674)

        I think that is how they started.

        Then people complained about all the videos of porn, violence, child abuse, etc.

        You can't please everyone.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by meustrus on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:42PM

        by meustrus (4961) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:42PM (#1041807)

        like order military strikes, veto legislation, and a whole bunch of other stuff

        Those power are granted explicitly by the constitution. Where in the constitution does it say that private enterprise must be compelled to provide the president with their platform, with no ability to restrict how that platform is used?

        It's possible that there is no way to moderate public officials on private platforms that is not subject to political bias. The solution is that the office of the president should not be delivering its announcements through public networks like Facebook and Twitter, instead relying on government publications being reported on by a free press.

        --
        If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:13AM (42 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:13AM (#1041530)

    In 2016, news people would ask Trump if he would accept the results. They never asked Hillary. She didn't really accept them. Democrats (obviously with her approval) took things to the courts, and years later she still makes comments claiming that somehow ("Russia", etc.) she was cheated.

    In 2016, there was a TIME magazine cover featuring a cartoon of stereotypical Trump supporters rioting over the election, carrying tiki torches and weapons. The actual reality is that Hillary supporters rioted. They aren't even really done rioting! They especially rioted the day after the election and the day of the inauguration.

    In 2016, Obama said there would be no fraud, but Trump was just losing. Reality was the opposite, with witnesses reporting ballots being filled out after the election in Broward County, FL.

    In 2020, we're told that Trump might use his government power to mess with things. That happened in 2016, with falsified evidence presented to a FISA court in order to get a warrant to spy on Trump. Just last week an Obama lawyer plead guilty to that. Of course, he's the scapegoat, at the bottom of Obama's corrupt intelligence agencies, and orders obviously came from the top. That shit makes Nixon look like a saint.

    In 2020, the postal worker union endorsed Biden. Say what? They will be delivering ballots? They will be delivering some ballots.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:36AM (23 children)

      by PiMuNu (3823) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:36AM (#1041533)

      Somehow the US political establishment, especially the Dems, have lost sight of what really matters: policies. Maybe it is Trump's very effective smokescreening and misdirection (not a criticism of Trump, it is his job as a politician).

      I saw bits of Biden's inaugural address (or whatever its called). It seemed to be that he was strong on rhetoric but very weak on substance. His address was essentially "vote for me, because I'm not Trump". Nothing that I could see about foreign policy e.g. whether US supports Europe, Russia or China. Nothing that I could see about budgets e.g. continue to support the military spend, or increase science spend, or something like that. Nothing at all really.

      It's a losing proposition I would say.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:07PM (8 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:07PM (#1041561) Journal

        It's a losing proposition I would say.

        Nothing is a losing proposition when the entirety of the media, captains of industry (esp. Big Tech), half the country under the control of the opposition party is being allowed to burn, and the puppet masters in the MIC are pulling out all the stops and then some this time to stop Trump. Trump is the president, but it doesn't seem to count for much because he doesn't seem to be able to arrest the aforementioned en masse or call in drone strikes on them. The Speaker of the House has now declared the President of the United States to be an "Enemy of the State," so I don't think those who hate Trump will have long to wait before they get the satisfaction they've been thirsting for.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:23PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:23PM (#1041736)

          Naked fascism in full support.

          Didn't realize the US was filled with traitors to democracy. Or, just Russian agents pulling a long con. Who knows with these amazing intertubes??

          • (Score: 3, Touché) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:15AM (3 children)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:15AM (#1041903) Journal

            It's a pretty pitiful fascism that doesn't result in mass, summary execution of characters like you. It's almost like they are servants of a lawful republic who don't possess dictatorial powers.

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:27AM (2 children)

              by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:27AM (#1042050) Journal

              Really, Phoenix666, my estimation of you is much reduced. Are you perhaps having a senior moment? Please try to remain rational.

              • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:00PM (1 child)

                by Phoenix666 (552) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:00PM (#1042104) Journal

                Are you disappointed I haven't drunk the Democrat Kool-Aid, or are you asserting that undesirable Americans are being locked up en masse, etc., and we really do live in a fascist country? If the latter, aren't you afraid to be posting criticism of the regime lest they come and arrest you in the night? If American democracy has died, why don't you take up arms and march on Washington?

                If you can still speak freely, elect representatives you like, and all of that democracy stuff, then by definition you do not live in a fascist country. Being able to do all those things and still, contrary to those facts, believing you live in a fascist state makes you the irrational one.

                And by the by, nowhere in my contract does it obligate me to "remain rational*."

                *according to a random dude on the Internet who fronts as a dead ancient Greek

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday August 26 2020, @11:16PM

                  by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @11:16PM (#1042431) Journal

                  No, more a matter of tone. You seem a bit on edge, of late.

                  And, I am not an American. But there is an interesting idea that the Philosopher Hegel had, that those who think that government is supposed to produce benefits for them are just wrong, whether it is health care, or contract enforcement and dispute resolution. You might think national defense, but that is where the rub is.

                  The community may, on the one hand, organize itself into systems of personal independence and property, of laws relating to persons and things; and, on the other hand, the various ways of working for Ends which are in the first instance particular Ends-- those of gain and employment-- it may articulate into their own special and independent associations. The Spirit of universal assembly and association is the simple negative essence of those systems which tend to isolate themselves. In order not to let them become rooted and set in this isolation, thereby breaking up the whole and letting the {communal} spirit evaporate, government has from time to time to shake them to their core by war. By this means the government upsets their established order, and violates their right to independence, while the individuals who, absorbed in their own way of life, break loose from the whole and strive after the inviolable independence and security of the person, are made to feel in the task laid upon them their lord and master, death. Spirit, by thus throwing into the melting-pot the stable existence of these systems, checks their tendency to fall away from the ethical order, and to be submerged in a {merely} natural existence; and it preserved and raises conscious self into freedom and its own power. The negative essence shows itself to be the real power of the community and the force of its self-preservation

                  Hegel, Phenomenology of Spirit, §455.

                  So in a war, the nation can take all your stuff, if it needs it. Requisition. And it can even take you, and put your life at risk, and take it if you refuse. Much the same in the case of a pandemic. We will take your freedoms, make you wear a mask, lock you up until the danger you pose is past, whatever it takes, because the health of the nation is more important than any one citizen. Now, in a democracy, every rational citizen undertakes their duty out of their own free will. In a fascist regime, it is the opposite.

                  So, Phoenix666, I hope you are well, and staying safe. Perhaps step away from SN for a day or so.
                  And who is this "random dude" on the internet who "fronts as a dead ancient Greek"? Makes us living ancient Greeks look bad, does stuff like that.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:31PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @09:31PM (#1041802)

          Rhetoric like that from the Speaker of the House ("Enemy of the State") encourages the crazy violent leftists.

          House member Steve Scalise was wounded and nearly killed by a Bernie supporter. A bunch of AR-15 ammo pierced the congressman's lower abdomen, severely damaging his organs.

          Senator Rand Paul was attacked by his unhinged lefty neighbor. (not over yard waste, as some claim) The senator got broken ribs and lung damage.

          Say, where are the attacks going the other direction politically? Could it be that the right is more peaceful and less unhinged? They certainly have the weaponry.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:52AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:52AM (#1041926)

            That's why the libs want this war with Russia so bad so they can conscript true American patriots and send them overseas to die.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:31AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:31AM (#1042051)

            A bunch of AR-15 ammo pierced the congressman's lower abdomen, severely damaging his organs.

            See! This is why we need to ban insulting rifles, so they do not randomly and by themselves go piercing Republican Congressmen (exception for Gym Jordan noted) and damaging their organs. You never see Chrysler products doing that, do you?

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by HiThere on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:34PM (4 children)

        by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @02:34PM (#1041606) Journal

        Sorry, but "Not Trump" is a good reason to vote for Biden. I'm not really thrilled with him as a candidate, but I'd support a doorknob before I'd support Trump. And I distrust facile promises. In the past the parts of the promise that I disliked most were the parts that tended to be kept. This was true whether I supported the candidate or not, and whichever party the candidate made the promises to.

        I'm sure part of the reason is that actual working plans don't make good sound bites. This, however, doesn't encourage me to trust politician's promises.

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:16PM (8 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:16PM (#1041707)

        Maybe it is Trump's very effective smokescreening and misdirection (not a criticism of Trump, it is his job as a politician).

        Trump looks and talks like a goddamn idiot but he is weakening our enemies, bringing us peace in the Middle East, and making moves that are good for long-term strategy. If you turn off the TV, ignore his orange face, and look at the results, Trump is the best president since Roosevelt or Lincoln while his biggest problems are either natural disasters like Covid or are something that the Democrats did.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:33PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:33PM (#1041714)

          Trump is caught in a middle-eastern political power play that will not really benefit the US. The poles of that conflict are Saudi Arabia, a Sunni theocracy, and Iran, a Shia theocracy.

          Saudi Arabia has strategically aligned with Israel, which forces us to take that side, no doubt in part to Trump's family and friends with ties to Israel.

          It would do us best to stay out of that shithole area.

        • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:35PM

          by PiMuNu (3823) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @05:35PM (#1041715)

          You get my point I think. Not that I necessarily agree with you - but if the Dems don't come out with some sort of policy then I believe Trump will win based on exactly the arguments you propose. And so he should.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 26 2020, @02:08AM (3 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 26 2020, @02:08AM (#1041934) Journal
          He is weakening the US too. US publicly held debt jumped by more than 20% over just the last year. We're really close to Greek levels of indebtedness once you count the corresponding decline in US GDP over the same time period. Austerity ahoy!
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:32AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:32AM (#1042053)

            You just don't get it, do you, khallow?

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:13PM (1 child)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:13PM (#1042110) Journal

              You just don't get it, do you, khallow?

              Oh look, a whiny AC adding nothing to the conversation, again.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @11:18PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @11:18PM (#1042435)

                Better than a whiny khallow, who adds nothing to the conversation but the opportunity to whine about how he adds nothing to the covfefesation. Hey, have you read von Hayek lately?

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by dry on Wednesday August 26 2020, @05:21AM

          by dry (223) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @05:21AM (#1042006) Journal

          The Kurds were your enemies? Recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel was a peace move? Putting Tariffs on Canada so American breweries have to buy cans from China is a good long term strategy? Cheering on China's human rights abuses is also a good long term strategy? Not to mention dividing Americans more then anyone in a 150 years does not seem smart, but I guess a civil war is one way to get dictatorial powers.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 27 2020, @11:49AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 27 2020, @11:49AM (#1042630)

          He's bringing peace to the middle east by continuing all of our unconstitutional forever wars against countries that didn't attack us. He brought peace to the middle east when he vetoed bipartisan legislation that would have ended the US's support of Saudi Arabia's genocide in Yemen, after Saudi Arabia funneled money into his hotels of course. That is the most amazing peace I've ever witnessed!

          And I'm not sure how 7+ million people losing health insurance under Trump helps us in the long-term. Or his tax cuts for the mega rich. Or much of anything he's done.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:17PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @01:17PM (#1041568)

      Exactly. Just like Al Gore. Look at John McCain. He accepted the election results. Look how much class and grace his speech had when he lost. Vs the democrats, absolutely NO class whatsoever when they lose. They are sore losers. The republicans lose with dignity and honor.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:20PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @03:20PM (#1041641)

        Vs the democrats, absolutely NO class whatsoever when they lose. They are sore losers. The republicans lose with dignity and honor.

        oh fuckin gimme a break. can you be more obviously biased

      • (Score: 2) by Tork on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:21PM

        by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 25 2020, @07:21PM (#1041761)

        They are sore losers. The republicans lose with dignity and honor.

        Can you say the same for Trump, since he's the key player here?

        --
        🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:59AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:59AM (#1041930)

        I liked the dignity and honor on show when the losing (rep) State Senates and Governors passed laws after losing the elections to strip the new (dem) Governors of their powers. Real nice losers.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:36AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:36AM (#1042057)

        Republicans loose with delusions, conspiracy theory, voodoo economics, and the Secret. Oh, and massive cray-cray! What the fuck was Don Jr and his "girlfriend" on last night, anyway?

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:44PM (12 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @06:44PM (#1041748)

      The Democrats response to the election result was terrible. They refused to acknowledge that running a candidate that half the population already strongly disliked was a terrible idea. The bullshit, "Her turn." campaign was insulting to many who don't think the presidency should be a hereditary office, as well.

      When they went after Trump for his criminality and corruption, they concentrated on one issue only. The list of Trump's crimes in office is massive. Even if the Republicans were going to be accessories to the criminality and violate their oaths to uphold the law, it would have been useful to get these issues more airtime to inform more of the population. A missed opportunity.

      I did not vote for either. Neither was qualified, and both had massive negatives that made them unfit to serve. But, I will point out that the only reason we have a far-right facist as president, instead of the center-right candidate that the Democrats ran, is that the election results were ignored (Clinton won by several million votes), and instead the president was chosen using an undemocratic system that was originally put in place to protect the institution of slavery.

      Similarly ignoring the results of the election is how we got the mental midget who went along with advice to illegally invade Iraq from far-right groups like the Heritage Foundation (who encouraged using 911 as an excuse to execute their plan to militarily invade Iraq to steal its natural resources). Babby Bush, who was an Apocalyptic Christian, saw this as a way to hasten the, "end times", and even referred to the invasion as a, "crusade".

      I wish we had a different voting system than first past the post. We could have other parties that better reflect the population. The Clintons pushed the Democratic party solidly right of center. Now the Democratic Party convention that was just held, was dominated by *Republican* speakers who oppose the authoritarian bent, criminality, and corruption of the Trump administration. So, we have the Democratic party that is led by folks who would have called themselves Rebuplicans a decade or two ago, and a Republican party that is led by folks who would have called themselves Nazis a few more decades ago.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by Grishnakh on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:57PM (6 children)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday August 25 2020, @08:57PM (#1041791)

        and instead the president was chosen using an undemocratic system that was originally put in place to protect the institution of slavery.

        I don't think this is correct at all. In 1787, when the Constitution was written, slavery hadn't quite become the big issue it did decades later when it finally was a major issue leading to the Civil War. The big issue with forming the government then was to keep all the states on-board and willing to join a union. Remember, states had a lot more power and sovereignty back then, and they were organized under the Articles of Confederation, which gave the nation a very weak central government (with no head-of-state even!) which was too ineffective, and which was why they decided to throw it out and write the Constitution after only about a decade of existence as a new nation. Trying to coordinate a popular election across the different states for a single office would have been a logistical nightmare, and high-population states would have had much more sway than low-population ones (i.e., the southern agrarian states), so they came up with the Electoral College to both make the election more feasible, and to give more power to the low-population states, not to prop up slavery intentionally, but to keep those states in the union instead of having them decide to leave and form their own country. Remember, they were still very worried that England might want to come back and try to retake these rebellious colonies, and they were right to worry about this because it happened in 1812. Furthermore, early on, 5 states didn't even have popular elections for President: the state legislatures chose the Electors. It wasn't until later that all states had popular elections leading to the choice of Electors.

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @10:41PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 25 2020, @10:41PM (#1041825)

          Original AC that you are responding to.

          Slavery was front and center at the founding of the United States. It was one of the reasons for the revolution; England was rumored to be considering ending slavery. [1] Slavery was also enshrined in the Constitution, one of the two most important of our nations founding documents:

          Article I, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution:

          Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

          "All other persons" refers to enslaved Africans in America.

          This section is critical to understand the electoral college. The distribution of electors for the electoral college was based on population.

          Under Clause 2, each state casts as many electoral votes as the total number of its Senators and Representatives in Congress.

          And, the 3/5 person clause + electoral college was to ensure that Southern slave states would dominate the presidential elections and have a disproportionate number of representatives in Congress (the main issue for the South always was protecting the institution of slavery). Southern states received a third more seats in Congress and a third more electoral votes than if slaves (who could not vote for said "representatives") were uncounted. Despite the numbers of people who were enfranchised with the vote being greater in the North (initially only white male land owners), and Northerners and Southerners being at opposite sides in many politically important issues such as tariffs, the south controlled the presidency for the early years of the nation (not a single Northerner elected; hell, not a single non-slave owner elected).

          1 https://www.counterpunch.org/2011/05/23/was-the-american-revolution-fought-to-save-slavery/ [counterpunch.org]

        • (Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday August 26 2020, @05:27AM (4 children)

          by dry (223) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @05:27AM (#1042007) Journal

          I was reading the Federalist papers on why the collage. One of the big reasons was to not have a populist elected, but rather a Statesman. Look at the rules, the electors not being politicians nor rabble and being able to decide independently who to vote for. Also remember that the runner up became Vice-President being the 2nd most qualified in the electors opinion.

          • (Score: 2) by Common Joe on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:33AM (2 children)

            by Common Joe (33) <{common.joe.0101} {at} {gmail.com}> on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:33AM (#1042056) Journal

            Disclaimer: I don't know history very well, so feel free to educate me.

            I don't think we'll find very many Statesmen in politics today. Ignoring that problem, I also question this idea about the electoral college being a good thing. What is really preventing the electoral college from giving the voters a big "F U" with a middle finger and voting who who they want or who they were bribed to vote for? Does an electoral college really make sense today?

            (I acknowledge the populist problem.)

            • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday August 26 2020, @08:37PM

              by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday August 26 2020, @08:37PM (#1042370)

              I also question this idea about the electoral college being a good thing. What is really preventing the electoral college from giving the voters a big "F U" with a middle finger and voting who who they want or who they were bribed to vote for? Does an electoral college really make sense today?

              What *is* preventing them, or what *was* preventing them?

              These days, the electors are bound to vote for the person they're told to vote for by their state governments, and those choices are made by the popular elections in each state. There have been cases of "faithless electors" (electors who claimed they'd vote for one candidate, but then voted for another), but this action is illegal now, and results in prosecution, as upheld by a court case (SCOTUS, I think). I guess if you could somehow convince enough electors to willfully commit a crime and vote for someone else, and then suffer the penalties for it (which would be really bad if bribery were discovered, and you can throw in conspiracy which is really bad), it might work, though if a real conspiracy were discovered they may very well throw out the results. It's never happened in history, so it would be an interesting legal case. Anyway, the fact that it's a crime keeps more than 1 or 2 electors from ever risking criminal penalties for this, and this isn't enough to sway the election.

              Back in the early days, I imagine the problem would be feasibility. Some electors were chosen based on their states' popular elections, other electors were chosen by the state legislatures (who held an election amongst themselves to choose which presidential candidate that state would vote for; the people got no say, other than being able to elect their legislators). None of these electors know each other, and it takes quite some time to travel from any random state by horse and carriage on dirt roads to Washington, DC to vote in the Electoral College, much less between various states. And presumably, these electors weren't just random Joes, they were people of means and with political connections, for them to be chosen for this role. Good luck bribing enough of them to change their vote. And I don't know if it was illegal back then to be a "faithless elector", but as I said these people were probably politically connected, so changing their votes would probably look really bad for them and affect their political careers.

              In short, if giving the voters a big "F U" was a real weakness of the Electoral College system, I think we would have seen this over the last ~230 years. This has never been one of the major complaints about the EC system.

              Does an electoral college really make sense today?

              That depends on your values and goals. Do you think the President should be popularly elected, and that every citizen's vote should count the same no matter what state they're in? If so, then the answer is "no". Not everyone agrees with this position, however, even today.
              If you believe that people in rural states should have their votes count more than people in heavily-populated states, because you think rural states should somehow get an advantage, then the answer is "yes". There are a LOT of people in this country in 2020 who still believe this (namely, people from rural states, and also people from rural parts of more-populated states).

              Personally, I think the whole thing should be thrown out. The Constitution should be tossed out and a new one adopted which wipes out our tricameral system, and adopts a Parliamentary system like those in Germany, Japan, UK, and most other developed nations. The head of state should not be elected by the people at all; s/he should be chosen by the legislative branch, so that you don't get government shutdowns when the two branches can't agree. This system works well in every other country. For comparison, look at which countries have Presidential systems like ours, and which don't. Countries with systems more like ours include: Russia, Brazil, El Salvador, Turkey. Countries with parliaments include Japan and all the leading western European nations. Which would you rather be like, Russia and Brazil, or Germany and Japan? Furthermore, when the US and allies defeated Germany and Japan in WWII and helped set up new governments there, why did they not push a system just like ours, when they had the chance? Same goes for Iraq more recently. If our system is so great, why wouldn't we have pushed it on countries we've defeated and rebuilt? The simple answer is: because it sucks. It might have made some sense in 1787 when almost all the leading nations were still monarchies and they didn't have much experience to go on, but we've had a lot more experience now worldwide with democratic systems to see what works well and what doesn't, and our creaky antiquated system does NOT work well.

            • (Score: 2) by dry on Thursday August 27 2020, @02:42AM

              by dry (223) on Thursday August 27 2020, @02:42AM (#1042512) Journal

              At the time, voting wasn't trusted so it was somewhat expected that the electors might give voters the FU in favour of a better candidate. I don't know if the founders expected the President to have so much power either, I suspect that Congress was supposed to have a greater role then how it evolved. In Great Britain, the Glorious Revolution had happened almost a century before where Parliament's supremacy was cemented so the idea of a powerful leader working against the legislature may not have been seriously considered. Cabinet used to be more important too, with more independence I believe.
              Today, it seems like an anachronism, the electors don't have independence so it seems like an extra unneeded step. It's awkward how to elect one person in a large country. Personally living in a Parliamentary system, I'm inclined to consider it superiour, though our elections could be improved. I like the idea of a mix of representatives representing districts and representatives representing the whole nation or portions of the nation.
              The Federalist paper I read was number 68, http://www.electoralcollegehistory.com/electoral/federalist68.asp [electoralcollegehistory.com]
              The Wiki page is easier reading, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._68 [wikipedia.org] especially Hamilton's understanding.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:42AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @09:42AM (#1042060)

            If you do not discriminate between "collage" and "college", we may well assume you never went to collage. Or your name is Charlie Kirk, or his (dead from the COVID-19) sugar daddy, Bill Montgomery, who is dead. [politico.com] Charlie dropped out of Community Collage, so there is that.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:24PM (4 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 26 2020, @01:24PM (#1042114) Journal

        When they went after Trump for his criminality and corruption, they concentrated on one issue only. The list of Trump's crimes in office is massive.

        Probably because they had no evidence to go with that list of crimes.

        is that the election results were ignored (Clinton won by several million votes)

        I sense a trend here. Cool story, bro, but it has nothing to do with reality.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @08:13PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26 2020, @08:13PM (#1042359)

          Read the reports you deceitful lazy sack of shit!

          And yes yes legally the electoral college win is allowed, but I so wish we could read your replies from the reality where Hillary won the EC and Trump won the popular vote. My god it would be glorious.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 27 2020, @03:17AM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 27 2020, @03:17AM (#1042524) Journal

            Read the reports you deceitful lazy sack of shit!

            Which reports, which you have yet to mention, have evidence in them? Your post is strangely devoid of such.

            And yes yes legally the electoral college win is allowed, but I so wish we could read your replies from the reality where Hillary won the EC and Trump won the popular vote.

            The electoral college win is not merely "allowed", it's the law. And now you're claiming something (that somehow I'll behave like you) despite it being completely unfalsifiable. Sorry, a fantasy is not a serious argument.

            All I can say is that I wasn't obsessed over that election. I didn't vote for either nor would I protest, if one received the electoral vote, but not the public vote - you know, like what actually happened?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 27 2020, @11:53AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 27 2020, @11:53AM (#1042632)

          Probably because they had no evidence to go with that list of crimes.

          You mean like Saudi Arabia funneling money into Trump's hotels, a violation of the emoluments clause?

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 27 2020, @01:14PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 27 2020, @01:14PM (#1042653) Journal
            Exactly. Where's the evidence to go with that claim?
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