Leaked documents show China mishandled early COVID-19 pandemic: report
Leaked documents from China show the country mishandled the early COVID-19 pandemic through misleading public data and three-week delays in test results, CNN reported Monday.
A whistleblower, who worked in the Chinese health care system, provided 117 pages of internal documents from the Hubei Provincial Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to CNN.
The files, which CNN had verified by six experts, showed how the region struggled to manage the coronavirus between October 2019 and April 2020 – a critical time period in which the virus spread from China to cause a worldwide pandemic.
[2020-12-01 23:22:03 UTC; Ed. update follows.]
The referenced CNN article is nearly 5,000 words long. In addition there are numerous graphs and graphics. I strongly encourage the community to read the entire article before drawing any conclusions or making comments. Here are some excerpts taken from near the end of the article:
It is not clear to what extent the central government was aware of the actions taking place in Hubei at that time, or how much information was being shared and with whom. The documents offer no indication that authorities in Beijing were directing the local decision-making process. However, Mertha, the JHU academic, said the mismatch between the higher internal and lower public figures on the February death toll "appeared to be a deception, for unsurprising reasons."
"China had an image to protect internationally, and lower-ranking officials had a clear incentive to under-report -- or to show their superiors that they were under-reporting -- to outside eyes," he said.
Conversely, however, the leaked documents also provide something of a defense of China's overall handling of the virus. The reports show that in the early stages of the pandemic, China faced the same problems of accounting, testing, and diagnosis that still haunt many Western democracies even now -- issues compounded by Hubei encountering an entirely new virus.
[...] China and its healthcare workers were under immense strain as the outbreak took hold, said Yang, from the Council of Foreign Relations.
"They had a massive run on the medical system. They were overwhelmed. There was truly despair among medical professionals by the end of January, because they were extremely overworked and they were also enormously discouraged by the high number of deaths that were occurring with a disease they had not treated previously," he added.
Hubei, which lags far behind Beijing, Shanghai and other major Chinese administrative divisions in terms of GDP per capita, was the first region to confront a virus that would go on to confound many of the world's most powerful countries.
Schaffner, from Vanderbilt University, said many of the comments in the documents might have been made in the US, "where, over the past 15 to 20 years, at particularly the state and the local level, public health funding has become constrained."
The documents show health care officials had no comprehension as to the magnitude of the impending disaster.
[...] Tuesday marks exactly 12 months since the first patient in Wuhan started showing symptoms, according to the Lancet study.
Lastly, there are likely to be strong feelings about the situation; I strongly encourage folk to try and keep things civil. Let one's anger be directed at the disease; not at fellow Soylentils. We are all struggling to various degrees to make sense of these highly disturbed circumstances. Please wear a mask, maintain physical distancing, and maintain proper hand washing practices. I can attest these practices help; I live in a state with one of the lowest rates of infection and death in the US. Even with that, I have a friend who was hospitalized for a couple weeks with COVID-19 and of a couple more acquaintances who have lost loved ones to this pandemic. There are the occasional exceptions, and I know people are growing tired and just want things to go back to normal. It is all the more important to do what we can to reduce the spread of this disease. --martyb
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @09:20PM (54 children)
Trump mishandled the pandemic and lied to the country repeatedly. The US owes Woodward so much, but sadly most rightwing nutters probably want to murder him for exposing their Liar in Chief.
Shame on China for not doing better or warning the world properly, but that is the behavior we expect from fascists.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @09:43PM (53 children)
Here we go -- we are living in the age of narrative, the primary of which is Orange Man Bad.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @09:53PM (9 children)
Narrative? You mean the Woodward interview where Trump admits he knew how deadly the virus is? The interview that happened before he went and lied to your face? The lie he admitted to and tried to cover with "didn't want to start a panic" yet he continued the lie after everyone knew the truth?
That narrative?
Sweet jesus mother mary save us from these imbeciles.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @09:55PM (3 children)
Don't be a racist -- enjoy the Chinese New Year Parade. The Flu is worse. Get a Gripe.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:16PM (1 child)
I have plenty of Gripe, specifically for morons like you that ignore reality in favor of cheeto dusted lies.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @04:26AM
Make America Gripe Again
(Score: 2, Informative) by pTamok on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:58PM
La grippe is French for the flu. I guess you misspelled it.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @11:22PM (4 children)
Thank you for continuing to remind us that we're complete fucking idiots and need someone to order us around. That with proper information from China, we still couldn't have figured out what to do. That we have only one governmental leader, and we obey him or her only. Asshole.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @11:46PM (3 children)
So you're saying you understand the science about why wearing masks and social distancing is important? That you understand why large gatherings are so dangerous?
No? Cause your convenience is more important than your fellow citizens' lives?
And I'm the asshole because I criticized Trump's lies about the virus while not saying we need to lock you in your house with concrete like China did? Enjoy beating up those straw men, here in CA most every business is open in my small town and most people wear their masks. There are still some idiots like yourself, but for some strange reason the big bad state of CA hasn't thrown them into prison!
Oh, and people who actually live in Portland and Seattle were quite amused by their relatives who were terrified they would be dead due to the entire city being a warzone. I can barely handle these increasingly paranoid separations from reality.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:22AM (1 child)
Yup, been wearing masks, social distancing, and washing hands, sanitizer, and being careful to not touch my face, etc.
Oops, your bullshit train went off the rails again. If you can get it back on the rails, which I doubt, I'll discuss like an adult.
As I've commented many times here, I don't take my medical advice from politicians.
I just wish you Trump haters would just be open and honest- just say you hate Trump, and stop trying to justify it with swiss-cheese arguments and non sequiturs.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @10:12AM
Trump is a criminal and very likely traitor, seem like pretty good reasons to not like the guy, but let us stay on topic. The criticisms here are for his lies and dangerous medical advice that has killed literally thousands or more who don't think they should worry about COVID if the POTUS is saying not to worry.
I'm glad you are being safe, but Trump's lies which are verified facts have harmed US citizens. Sure would be nice if you could acknowledge objective reality instead of assuming all criticisms of Trump are purely emotional fabrications. But he did tell you to not believe your eyes and ears, to only listen to him.
You might wonder why I brought up Trump in this story about China's actions, and the answer is simple. For months the WH has been trying to avoid responsibility by blaming China so I wanted to dismiss that BS right away.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:43PM
Yeah, my dad was all worried about me (live in a Minneapolis suburb), and I was like, don't worry we are staying home and masking up whenever we do shopping. He was like, "What are you even talking about? I mean the rioting?" I was pretty confused because there wasn't anything like that anywhere outside a few blocks of the precinct. Later found out it was started by right-wingers, just as the cherry on top.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:10PM (42 children)
Why not both? China fucked it up and so did the US.
I will never understand why it has to be either/or. Both countries have some seriously fucked-up leaders and seriously fucked-up attitudes toward their own citizens.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:24PM (39 children)
Everyone fucked it up. No exceptions.
(Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:52PM (8 children)
Well, Russia has started mass vaccination this week. Just saying...
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @11:21PM (7 children)
And that's not a fuckup in-the-making?
(Score: 3, Informative) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:34AM (6 children)
Well, I am following a telegram chat room which has a few thousands early testers. Apparently for a couple of months already anybody could get vaccinated with a catch - 25% get placebo. That's the place where they share their experiences. While I don't read the whole thing - there are tens of thousands messages - and I don't have time to dig through them, my impression is that it works well. Some people report fevers and persistent headaches, some got infected, but 92% advertised efficiency and no major side effects appear to be true statements.
The bad news is that the antibody counts do go down - yes, many of them do biweekly tests at their expenses - and it looks like the vaccine can't be repeated. They would have to switch to another one eventually, which so far is not approved.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:41AM (5 children)
How does that differ from 100% placebo?
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @04:50AM (2 children)
Vast majority of people report no infection even when they have sick coworkers or family members.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @04:53AM (1 child)
Also, nobody reports severe cases.
I am sorry I did not mention this as I keep forgetting that most people here believe that everything Russian is poison. There is no doubt in my mind that the vaccine works. The question is how well or with what side effects, if any.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @06:37AM
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday December 02 2020, @12:01PM (1 child)
92% fewer cases among the vaccinated? So if there were 20% cases among the placebo-ed there would be 1.6% cases among the actually vacinnated?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:07PM
Again, how does that differ from a 100% placebo? It's easy to cook numbers.
(Score: 3, Informative) by MostCynical on Wednesday December 02 2020, @12:40AM (19 children)
New Zealand? 3 current cases, all people in quarantine [health.govt.nz]
Australia? 8 locally acquired (all known sources), 57 in quarantine [health.gov.au]
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:36AM (16 children)
Accomplished by eliminating civil liberties = fail.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:13AM (13 children)
Civil liberties eliminated? Like what? Your freedom to kill my mother with impunity? Your freedom to create overwork the heath care workers? Your freedom to extract money from my taxes to pay for this extra care?
Thanks God those liberties were temporary suspended, I can now go to the beach without needing a mask, with 0 new cases with local transmission for 33 days [7news.com.au] today.
You say fail, I say success.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:52AM (6 children)
You stinking disgusting hypocrite rat.
How many mothers died when governments ordered hospitals to stop providing medical help to cancer patients and other chronic cases "because COVID"?
(Score: 4, Informative) by c0lo on Wednesday December 02 2020, @04:08AM (2 children)
None in Australia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Informative) by Mykl on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:08AM (1 child)
I can confirm (personal anecdote) that hospitals in Victoria, Australia continued to run effectively in the height of the crisis back in July.
I was having chest pains (turns out it was stress-related from simultaneously trying to work and home-school our youngest). Went to a GP, who then recommended I visit the Emergency Department. I was kept overnight while they ran a series of ECGs, blood and X-Rays (lung). They kept me over because I was _just_ above the threshold number in a couple of tests and they wanted to be absolutely sure there were no heart problems. At no point was there any discussion of me leaving due to COVID/availability.
Oh, by the way, under the Australian health care system the entire visit cost me $0. I have private health insurance, but it was not needed for this visit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @08:57AM
I have a family member that works overseas. He always jokes that the biggest bill they got when their child was in the hospital for two weeks was from stress eating out of the vending machines.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:35AM (1 child)
1. at no point have any Australian or New Zealand hospitals been turning anyone away.. 'regional' hospitals have been having problems [abc.net.au], but that has been an ongoing issue for decades (not helped by State Government wage freezes and lack of training opportunities in the bush [pc.gov.au], nothing to do with Covid-19.
2. "Mothers"/"cancer" - Huh?
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:59AM
His use of "mothers" part come from my
(my mother is in the extreme risk bracket due to age/preconditions)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 03 2020, @05:47AM
huh what? I'm in Oz, when did that happen?
My dog has cancer and not even the vet were closed during the pandemic. We must wear mask, sanitize our hands and have keep distancing strictly - a minor inconvenience to liberty most sane australians are more than happy to oblige.
My wife have ongoing thyroid problems and we continued to have access to our GP no dramas there either.
The only dramas we had were folks near border rural areas where the closest critical med. access is across the borders and when the borders closed the numb nut officials didn't make provisions for those exceptions.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @11:57AM (5 children)
Imagine believing telling people not to see their families for a year is reasonable policy. Imagine thinking giving up your rights this year means you'll be given them back next year. Next Thanksgiving your grandmother will be one year older and you still won't be allowed to see her, assuming she had another year left to begin with. I hope last year's celebrations were special at least. If she dies at the hands of the police you might be allowed a funeral.
You people are modern day abstinence-only educators. How many more months of your ideas not working anywhere not a remote island do we need to go through?
(Score: 3) by c0lo on Wednesday December 02 2020, @12:25PM (4 children)
The worst that Australia had was about 160 days in strict isolation, and this was the Victoria/Melbourne case. Incidentally, this is were I live.
Now, imagine South Korea, which didn't have a strict lockdown until now [wikipedia.org], so the people could see their family.
I don't need to imagine, I already have my rights restored now and I can enjoy them without fear that I may kill someone doing it.
I no longer have grandparents, but I do have parents in the age bracket.
I brought my parents with me, so my isolation was their isolation, can you imagine that?
And they'll continue to live with me, they're already too old to let them live without support.
Well, mate, there seems to be a problem with the police in your country. Maybe it's time to start working on it.
There are a number of countries not on a remote island where they managed to do it. Maybe start looking how they made and make it work before declaring the impossibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:39PM
Weren't there several instances of police brutality in the last few months due to lockdown? Something about ripping people from their cars, running a man over and stomping on his head, forcing their way into a woman's home and arresting her over Facebook posts?
Enjoy your summer, you're a fool if you think this isn't an annual event. If we could cure diseases with lockdowns and masks we would have done it long before 2020. Have fun next flu season.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:42PM (2 children)
What do you think Peru did wrong? They're still locked down, 8 months later, and have one of the worst global fatality rates.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday December 02 2020, @10:52PM
Didn't respect the epidemiological countermeasures. That or they installed to much 5G. Which one do you think is more plausible?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Thursday December 03 2020, @01:01AM
What's gone wrong in Peru: [bbc.com]
queuing at banks and at markets (both 'essential', but without social distancing, there has been huge amount of infection)
many people living together - not just multi-generational housing, but multi-family houses (ie, shacks)
Parts of rural Peru doesn't have clean water [water.org] or sanitation [waterforpeople.org]
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by julian on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:44AM (1 child)
People who insist on, "liberty or death" will get both.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @12:19PM
And people who insist on neither will still get the latter.
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:44PM (1 child)
For the record the Trump administration has more cases than entire countries.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Thursday December 03 2020, @01:05AM
White House: "more than 45 cases" [wikipedia.org]
18 countries have fewer total cases [worldometers.info]
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 4, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:03AM (5 children)
Actually, the numbers say differently. New Zealand has fared pretty well through all of this. Australia has done better than several other nations. Senegal, Iceland, Denmark, and, oh yeah, Saudi Arabia.
Does anyone care to speculate how COVID might have spread if the annual pilgrimage to the Grand Mosque had gone off as usual? You usually see millions upon millions jostling each other, waiting for an opportunity to get into, or at least close to, the square with the Kaaba.
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/countries-with-best-covid-responses/ [globalcitizen.org]
This page has some nice charts and maps and graphs showing who did better, and who did worse.
Hmmm - deaths per million show that Belgium and Peru have been the hardest hit of all nations on that chart, 1348 and 1078 respectively.
https://www.biznews.com/health/2020/12/01/covid-19-countries [biznews.com]
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:14AM (2 children)
Kudos to those who cancelled this event rather than spouting off about "muh freedumz". They recognized an exceptional circumstance that changed the risk/benefit equation and determined that the sensible course of action was to call it off this year.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @12:03PM (1 child)
You think next year will be different? Not only do I still have to take my shoes off at the airport, now they have a machine that can see under my clothes.
You aren't getting your "freedumz" back because you've demonstrated how much you value them. I'm sure ridiculing people who don't want to be corralled into their homes for a year is exactly the kind of truth to power you thought you'd be speaking today. I have to wonder what "freedumz" you'll give up for the rest of us in another twenty years.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:49PM
You seem to have a problem with a specific country - your own,
Don't judge the rest of the world based upon your own (apparently) limited experiences. Why don't you sort your country out before you try giving people living elsewhere the benefit of your views regarding how your own government(s) have treated people?
Now, can we get back to discussing the topic rather than having to put up with your views on how you have been mistreated please?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @12:22PM (1 child)
And yet Peru locked down early and hard. Guess they weren't Australian enough?
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Thursday December 03 2020, @01:09AM
correct.. Australians don't live crowded in hovels, everyone has fresh water and sanitation, and a bank account..
https://soylentnews.org/politics/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=40902&page=1&cid=1083446#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:03AM (3 children)
I dunno about everyone.
Vietnam has done pretty well so far, and New Zealand is kind of (sorta) back to normal. In fact, our government handled it so well I have been attending rugby matches, in crowds of thousands no masks needed.
Of course we locked down really hard right at the beginning, and because our government asked nicely, and reminded us to be kind to each other, we listened.
So far, so good.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:14AM (2 children)
Thailand have done very well, which is a serious achievement given how many tourists were out there and at that precise time.
It's even more surprising as Thailand is painted as bureaucracy that can't efficiently govern. Apparently they can and much better than Western world.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:09AM (1 child)
I was under the impression that Thailand was essentially a military dictatorship? Wasn't there a coup of some sort a decade ago?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:21AM
Thailand is a constitutional monarchy similar to England. However every now and then liberals get too much power and question the established ways. The solution is always the same and simple - military coup that dismisses the government which is blessed by the King. After a few months new elections are called, more reasonable people are elected and military goes back to what Thai military typically does - making money. Thai military owns banks and many profitable businesses so it's keen to protect it's investments. One should view military coups in Thailand as the way of Thai King to dismiss the parliament, the government or both; nothing more.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:17AM (1 child)
Right now USA still has a great leader. By USA standards, he is the best in over a century. (past that the comparison is difficult because it really was a very different world)
Things do take a turn for the worse soon it seems, but the Wuhan virus could partially save us. Biden isn't immune, unlike Trump.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:38AM
That leaves us with the person who attempted to use the power of the state to commit the murder of American citizens. Granted -- that's pretty much par for Democrats these days but from a utilitarian perspective, it isn't a step up.
https://theappeal.org/kamala-harris-criminal-justice-record-killed-her-presidential-run/ [theappeal.org]
https://www.salon.com/2010/04/07/assassinations_2/ [salon.com]
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @09:30PM (2 children)
China,North Korea,Iran,Venezuela,France
Countries we can’t blame for a pandemic:
Every other country
(Score: 3, Informative) by HiThere on Wednesday December 02 2020, @12:36AM
Actually China has a modicum of blame. Much less than our internal decision makers, but some. Nobody else though. And the US intelligence services knew that China was hiding how dangerous COVID was back in, I think it was, January. And reported it to the president. So China was mainly hiding things from the public, and the US govt. was extremely complicit.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 04 2020, @01:06PM
Spanish Flu?
Black Death?
Ebola?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Tuesday December 01 2020, @09:53PM (78 children)
From TFA:
Explain how this sentence is not inherently self-contradictory. The officials told the public something _different_ from what they knew to be true -- IOW, they lied, minimized, they intentionally withheld information. This isn't reporting -- CNN is obfuscating truth using well constructed sentences that mean nothing at all, but feel like they do and give people a warm comfortable feeling.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:00PM (9 children)
In other words, they're continuing to be CNN.
Haven't you noticed? That's what they do ALL THE TIME.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 4, Touché) by fustakrakich on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:20PM (8 children)
But! but! but! it was verified by 6 (six) experts! Count 'em, SIX! Not four, not five, SIX!
The "news" is impossible to watch or listen to anymore. It's all just some rich man's bullshit.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @06:27AM (5 children)
This is like the news stories about spying by US intelligence on the global phone network and US citizens in particular. We strongly suspected China had indeed suppressed information, and lied about the COVID outbreak and its extent, but we didn't have evidence. Now, we do, and you're more concerned about how many CNN experts can dance on the head of a pin.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday December 02 2020, @06:41AM (4 children)
Uh huh...
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @07:16AM (3 children)
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:49PM (2 children)
Oh nothing, just that you don't know what you're talking about, merely repeating propaganda, which is kinda redundant since it goes without mentioning, you know, one of those self evident things
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:59PM (1 child)
The excuses continue, I see. I doubt you would know self-evident things even if they really were self-evident.
As to playing the propaganda card, it's interesting what you think is propaganda. Chinese whistleblowers? Gotta be propaganda.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:09PM
There are no "excuses". It's you, jumping on today's regular scapegoating bandwagon
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by Spamalope on Wednesday December 02 2020, @04:37PM (1 child)
6 experts (per biased reporting agency)! That makes it better!
Don't notice they're misdirecting from only *1* source to make you think it's confirmed by 6.
That said, some of this has been out for a long time from other sources.
It's nice to see the October 2019 date for the outbreak being well underway being admitted to - now that the election is over. I don't think we need to point out that CNN opposed travel restrictions as racist before orange man was bad for not imposing them in time. Or that the WHO insisting there was no outbreak, then no human-to-human transmission 5 months after it reached epidemic levels in China... how many deaths is that lie responsible for?
Anyhow, other sources showed unusual hospital and symptom search activity starting in Sept that got serious in Oct. Info that was scrubbed as soon as it was mentioned, as there has been concerted cover-up activity. I knew about it in November from a travel photography Vlog I follow that'd done lots of work in China and was getting pictures of bodies hospital hallways and people lying in the streets in Wuhan and was warning people about some sort of pathogen loose there so folks wouldn't travel to the area.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday December 02 2020, @06:22PM
New Zealand is handling it properly. Most others, including the US are just scapegoating China/Russia/Whoever for their own failures.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:05PM
Perhaps the key is that they used the word "intentional" rather than "institutional." Saving face and making things (or your bosses) look good is so ingrained in some people and in some business cultures that it's the default stance rather than a deliberately thought-out choice. In that situation there would have to be an intentional effort to NOT cover things up.
Not knowing the culture in those hospitals, I cannot be certain if that's the case this time around. It seems plausible though.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:06PM
Under an autocratic regime, the matter of bearing bad news to your boss is often a matter of personal survival.
When "dam'd if you do, dam'd if you don't", it's only natural that the things get distorted with every reporting level the information passes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:14PM (46 children)
I couldn't care less about how China handled things because the chance of it making any differnce now is zero, so I'm not defending them just engaging your question.
Belief is all find and good, but if the actual data they were receiving disagreed then it would be highly irresponsible to make up numbers that fit their beliefs. If all they had was a belief then they wouldn't be withholding information intentionally. You don't release internal memos full of speculation as public information.
So there you have it. They limited their report to confirmed cases and they were dealing with an influenza outbreak which made diagnosis even more problematic. Why are you so quick to chastise China while giving Trump a total pass for his INTENTIONAL mishandling? Can you please try applying a little logic and reason instead of just pulling out the most convenient excuse? I remind you that Trump is on record admitting he knew the virus was real and deadly before he went on national television to downplay it and call it a hoax.
Don't actually try and answer please, the facts are very clear and there is no reason aside from "believed the propaganda instead of the truth." I'm pretty sure I have your position judged correctly based on your past posts, but if you are critical of Trump's handling of COVID then my apologies. Also I have no problem being critical of China, it is pretty clear they downplayed the virus a fair bit themselves but I think that was more about protecting their own image. Hard to look all-powerful when you fuck up a pandemic response.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by legont on Tuesday December 01 2020, @11:06PM (38 children)
The US had the outbreak in mid December 2019 https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-likely-in-u-s-in-mid-december-2019-cdc-scientists-report-11606782449 [wsj.com]
but did not recognize it.
Note that this is not a president's job to recognize a new and dangerous pathogen. It's a job of very liberal doctor's of NYC. What the president should have done was to hold them accountable.
Directly comparing the situation to Wuhan, the president should have executed the mayor of NYC and the governor on NY along with NJ and Connecticut's.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @11:48PM
Wooooow
#FBI #CIA #NSA #APA [apa.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:51AM (21 children)
Accountable for what? You don't actually have the disease spreading for a month after it allegedly first appeared. Diseases that don't spread don't merit "executions".
(Score: 3, Insightful) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:09AM (20 children)
Look, there was an outbreak of virus pneumonia in Russia - in Siberia if I remember correctly - in the spring of 2019. It was dealt with as usual. Some schools were closed, some quarantine established, and everything normalized within two months. That's how local doctors and authorities are supposed to react if they want to avoid pandemic. Was it covid? Was it some other unknown virus or bug? Nobody knows nor cares that much. Chinese behaved exactly the same just on a somewhat bigger scale.
If the US requires the president to deal with such simple matters, the US is doomed. We are now in the connected world so we either adapt to ways people deal with epidemics or close our borders for good. There is no alternative. The president is not out there to wipe everybody's ass.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Mykl on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:22AM (2 children)
If only Trump had done nothing at all.
Instead, he actively and forcefully played down the virus and encouraged people to ignore it. He then took it a step further and politicized the wearing of masks and social distancing. Not even his own infection (remember he was briefly in the ICU before being hit with a cocktail of experimental drugs) and the near death of friends (such as Chris Christie) stopped him lying to the public about the dangers of the disease.
If he had shut his big orange mouth from the beginning, people may have listened to the health advice coming out from medical experts who knew what they were talking about rather than trying to drink bleach.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:35AM
And I believe it would be the best course of action if implemented. We should have treated sick, protect vulnerable, and let the rest do as they please.
Instead we implemented a lock-down for strong and healthy, while - and I am not going to say we here, but the governors of tri state area - send covid to the most vulnerable - homes for elderly. They are murderers and should be executed for this, period. They did it to save hospitals beds for their rich and healthy friends. Death for them.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @07:50AM
Yep -- the Democrats would have done great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFCzoXhNM6c [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtFNuI2kT_E [youtube.com]
https://youtu.be/a-ZK29G674Y?t=84 [youtu.be]
https://youtu.be/_mCg8eWPS04?t=59 [youtu.be]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @06:39AM (14 children)
Why ask when it clearly wasn't covid? Because if Russia had COVID-19 that early, then it would have gone global long before February 2020.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:07PM (7 children)
Because there are dozens of outbreaks that normal medical authorities deal with every year. One of them one day becomes "covid". The reason to ask is because the US is totally incapable to deal with it. The US outsourced this to China similar to iPhone production. The US - no matter what politicians are in power - believes all the bugs come from China or Russia or whatever and it makes them Chinese responsibility. However, the fact is the bugs know no borders and this particular covid one is likely was discovered in China; not appeared over there.
Trump was at least honest about it as his answer was to close the border. Democrats are still denying the issue; be it infection or economy destruction.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 03 2020, @01:27AM (6 children)
We already know covid wasn't dozens of outbreaks that normal medical authorities deal with every year.
Why not get some evidence for that assertion before you continue? Because contrary to assertions made here and elsewhere, no one has yet discovered COVID-19 before its presence in Wuhan last December.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday December 06 2020, @12:44AM (5 children)
SARS-CoV-2 was discovered in archival sewage from March, 2019, in Barcelona.
It's anybody's guess whether this was a false positive.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday December 06 2020, @04:13PM (4 children)
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday December 07 2020, @01:19AM (3 children)
I found it interesting that they kept deep=frozen archival sewage to test later.
There were also old blood samples from September 2019 in Italy that tested positive. And some epidemiologists think this correlates with an increased incidence of flu in the fall of 2019. Some of those flu cases might have been misdiagnosed covid-19.
And some in New York in December 2019.
It these are real, covid-19 may not have originated in China, but we can say it was first reported in China.
But you're right, this demands an explanation why the epidemic didn't explode back then. I don't know enough epidemiology to begin to speculate on that.
-- hendrik
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday December 07 2020, @04:59AM (2 children)
"IF". Again, as I repeatedly note, if covid-19 originated elsewhere, then what was special about Wuhan that it became a highly infectious disease there rather than many months earlier elsewhere? There is something very wrong with the narrative.
The pandemic makes sense starting with Wuhan. The first cases are reported there, and then as additional cases are discovered, they were initially discovered to be tied to travel from Wuhan, and then later, travel from regions that had earlier reported cases tied to Wuhan. If covid-19 had been present in these various cities earlier in the year, then how and why did the disease disappear rather than become a pandemic months earlier than it actually did?
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Saturday December 12 2020, @11:53AM (1 child)
Your interpretation is indeed the most likely.
So they might be just false positives. And likely are.
But it might also be that the tests react to predecessors of covid-19 that aren't massively contagious. If so, that would be an interesting avenue for investigation in the theories of viral mutation.
I haven't heard of any attempts to retest these early samples from Barcelona, Italy, or New York. That may be impossible if the testing ended up being destructive.
Italy and New York have apparently during the fall of 2019 had a greater than normal incidence of "flu" cases that might have been misdiagnosed.
-- hendrik
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday December 12 2020, @10:06PM
Remember coronavirus has long been among us as one of the contributors to the "common cold". COVID-19 is new.
That misdiagnosis would probably have to be at the viral level too. Remember that 2019 was a worse than normal flu year. So one would expect to see a greater incidence of flu cases.
(Score: 2) by legont on Friday December 04 2020, @06:01PM (5 children)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science/coronavirus-traces-found-in-march-2019-sewage-sample-spanish-study-shows-idUSKBN23X2HQ [reuters.com]
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday December 05 2020, @03:25AM (4 children)
This. Or maybe error.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday December 05 2020, @10:38AM (3 children)
https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-11-17/COVID-19-was-spreading-in-Italy-by-September-2019-study-indicates-VuSqUttP8s/index.html [cgtn.com]
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday December 05 2020, @09:05PM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday December 05 2020, @10:28PM (1 child)
They are not stories, but scientific research, as opposed to stories that Covid started in China.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday December 06 2020, @06:44AM
There is some sort of scientific research there, sure, but the stories aren't scientific. If COVID-19, rather than some error in those studies or a disease with a few similar antibodies, were present, then we would have seen vastly more cases in January. Hospitals would be overwhelmed, among other things.
The narrative doesn't fit the evidence. No amount of such studies will change that.
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:48PM (1 child)
Well it's past election day and the virus is still here. Trump claimed it would disappear by then.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:27PM
No, it's not. January 6th is when Congress starts counting votes. Only starts, mind you.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Immerman on Wednesday December 02 2020, @04:15AM (13 children)
Right, it's not the President's job. Nor is it the job of doctors in NYC or elsewhere. It's the job of the CDC and pandemic response team - parts of the executive branch.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @04:58AM (12 children)
Well, this opinion of yours makes the US much more totalitarian country than China as in China it is the job of agencies that report to local authorities. The whole point of the article was that local authorities mislead the central ones in China. In the US local authorities simply did nothing, which is wrong.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @06:40AM (6 children)
So it's totalitarian for national level agencies to treat national level problems? Do tell.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @12:06PM (3 children)
I can't imagine anything more authoritarian today than a body that presides over 300 million+ people restricting their movements to their homes, but I guess that's just me.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:53PM (2 children)
Because that's the only way to address national level health problems?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:12PM (1 child)
Large scale central authoritarianism is? It's fine if you think so, but call it what it is.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 03 2020, @01:18AM
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:12PM (1 child)
One typically does not know if a problem is nation level. The whole idea of totalitarianism is to treat any issue as a nation level one.
Nation level issue has to be an extremely rare occurrence when it the US any issue is a nation level one. This makes the US totalitarian all right and way more than China.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 03 2020, @01:51AM
Why would you think that? Does your country's media not inform you enough of such things?
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:07PM (4 children)
What do you mean they did nothing? They informed the CDC, whose job it is to organize national level pandemic responses because we *know* from past pandemics that localized responses can't handle them.
The CDC put out guidelines, and then the President told everyone to ignore them and helped dramatically worsen the problem.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:21PM (3 children)
You sound so much Soviet it's even not funny.
They - locals - should have find out about it in December. They should have, for example, close affected schools - mostly Jewish religious in this case - and advise orthodox to stay home on Saturdays. They should not be afraid of doing it and enforce if necessary. There should be no fear of another "national issue" - different groups "rights" - in this case. Normally in 99% cases the outbreak would be closed and forgotten without the president even informed. That's how normal reaction should be.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:48PM
Check your timeline - it was the last day of December when China reported dozens of cases of a new form of pneumonia, and Jan 11th before the first reported death (maybe China was hiding info - but that's irrelevant to a discussion of our response) The first US case was reported January 21st. Jan 22nd Trump said we had it totally under control, beginning a long trend of systematic lies convincing half the population to resist all attempts at controlling the spread.
And what do you mean by "normally"? There hasn't been a serious pandemic-class disease since the 1918 flu, which the US mismanaged almost as badly as this one.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:32PM
Lol, closing Jewish religious schools? That is your "this should be the normal way to handle it"?
Funnily enough the SCOTUS just put the kibosh on those sorts of things.
Who on the SCOTUS would be so Soviet that they would suggest this isn't the way to handle things? Well it wasn't Sayotomyer that is for sure.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 03 2020, @01:54AM
Why? We've already established that China didn't inform anyone about the dangers of COVID-19 until well into January. I'm aware that you assert that there were covid cases in the US in December, but haven't given any evidence for that or for the claim that the locals should have found out about it then.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday December 02 2020, @07:21PM
Pop quiz: What branch of government does the Centers for Disease Control reside in?
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:27AM (6 children)
There is a health problem, and you expect the president to step in? Really?
Why is it that democrats always dismiss the idea of personal responsibility? Wear a mask if you like. Why do democrats demand an autocratic leader to enforce basic hygiene? You go on and on about how Trump is LITERALLY HITLER and all authoritarian and shit, and then you hate on him when he doesn't live up to your dictator fantasy.
Maybe he should also mandate flossing, toothbrushing, and mouthwash? How about consumption of vegetables like broccoli? Trump can even tell you to wipe your ass.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:55AM (4 children)
Of course. The real mystery is why you don't have such expectations. If personal responsibility is an actual virtue of yours, then the president ought to at least try to exemplify that virtue. Part of being a leader, you see. Trump doesn't have to force you to wear masks in order to be a positive force in overcoming covid.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @12:08PM (3 children)
Probably because only one of us wants to be led.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:01PM (2 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:18PM (1 child)
If I were pining for a leader, I'd be bitching on the internet about Trump and talking about what is "part of being a leader" and how he doesn't "exemplify virtues". Can you project harder?
Trump was never my leader and Biden won't be either. Grow up.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 03 2020, @01:20AM
If you were pining for a leader that wasn't Trump. One of the nice things about authoritarians is that like most other people they don't agree on basic principles, like who is the authority.
Maybe Sanders then?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by legont on Wednesday December 02 2020, @05:43AM
That's because the US Democrats are fascists, pure and simple. They are not Nazi, mind you. Nazi will come later as they always do. Be ready.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday December 01 2020, @10:38PM (2 children)
The plan [mnstate.edu]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:07AM (1 child)
Do you work at the same company I do?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:52AM
Nope. In the dept that I work, we (the engineers) produce our own shitty plans. We spend about 20% of our worktime in planning, synchronizing and reconciliating those plans between teams spread over 4 time zones (3 of which are at 1/3 daytime difference, give or take the DST) then tracking those plans, so that we end with preeeeetty much the same shit. But, you see, it's our shit now.
Now, if you excuse me, I need to plan my milestones and epics for the 21Q1 by EOB today, I have the planning meeting with my team at 00:30AM. And the next 2 days I'll spend in creating the user stories for those epics in Jira (are we agile or what?). Because, as always, Q4-s are shorter than the other quarters, just two weeks and a bit until the Christmas closure of the office (the 12 days - or more - of Christmas, CU next year).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 02 2020, @01:17AM (3 children)
Did my little bit to mod you up, as you deserve.
Bottom line is, you cannot trust China to report reliably with regards to public health.
On the same line, you cannot depend on CNN for news of any sort. You especially cannot rely on CNN for any news that has a political spin to it, which pretty much includes all news.
It hardly matters whether the false reports are the result of a systemically corrupt government system, or due to the poor decisions of a small handful of people, or even due to a broken reporting system. When all is said and done, China reports fewer casualties than many little tiny countries, despite having ~18% of the world's total population. Interestingly, India, with a similar population, reports 97 deaths per million, as opposed to China's reported 3 deaths per million. Even little New Zealand with the best response and track record in the "western" world reports 5 deaths per million, near enough to double China's reported death rate.
Believing China is just stoooooo-pid!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @02:58AM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:08AM (1 child)
I think that's what I said, and implied: You cannot trust China's reporting. Should I rewrite my post to make that (somehow) more clear?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @06:39AM
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Wednesday December 02 2020, @11:49AM (9 children)
When officials face uncertainties they'd often withhold them to prevent unnecessary panic when addressing the public with a hand-holding, "everything is going to be fine, don't pull your money out of the bank or buy all the tissue paper, canned food and bottled water from the store", type speech. Most people in the media are aware of this and often play a part in this in times of crisis as they're asked to delay or soften certain stories. What matters is the actual conduct and internal reports. And internally, the Wuhan officials did their jobs with one exception: They covered up the death-toll in their reports to the central government. Unfortunately, that particular type of coverup also happened in Europe (Spain..) and in the US (the CDC...) so CNN can't go around pointing fingers. It also doesn't help when even after all the facts laid bare, you still had officials all over the world refusing to act.
TL;DR. Nothing new or unusual about any of it.
compiling...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 02 2020, @03:03PM (8 children)
Because if Spain and the US allegedly do the same thing, then it's ok, right? Whataboutism. CNN can indeed point the finger as much as they want to.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Wednesday December 02 2020, @07:06PM (7 children)
Unless someone is arguing all government activities and records should be made public immediately with complete disregard to people's privacy or national security, transparency in government isn't some absolute value or inalienable right. So, the context is one of degrees of guilt rather than absolute guilt or innocence. As such, it will be highly hypocritical of CNN to go around pointing fingers when they themselves along with their own government have been involved in similar activities (and screw ups) in the past. With that, they're left to judge each incident on case by case basis. And in this case, they haven't found enough evidence to show there was any malicious conspiracy beyond the usual level of corruption we've all come to expect from governments.
compiling...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 03 2020, @01:24AM (6 children)
Ok, then what "privacy or national security" concerns were even remotely in danger to justify China withhelding said information?
Not that being "highly hypocritical" has ever been something we really care about.
But even if we grant what you claim, the usual level of corruption allows for a great deal of malicious conspiracy.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Friday December 04 2020, @06:52PM (5 children)
First off, we don't know China withheld information. The leak tells us officials in Wuhan were withholding information from the Chinese government.
Secondly, I don't know Chinese nor do I know any Chinese officials so how should I know what were their concerns? Maybe they classify large scale public health issues by default as a response to possible biological warfare... Maybe they were worried about the markets during a trade war... Maybe they just didn't get how bit it was and going to be... Point is, they made a decision and from the leak CNN couldn't find anything unusual about the decision making process.
Maybe. But not in this case as far as the CNN people are concerned. ergo case-by-case...
compiling...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday December 05 2020, @03:08AM (4 children)
Doesn't look like that to me, particularly when one considers the lack of penalty for the alleged withholding.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Saturday December 05 2020, @03:01PM (3 children)
Dake Kang covered a different angle [apnews.com] for AP that hints why that might be the case. His twitter feed [twitter.com] has a discussion [twitter.com] where he brings up some points and the time line and mentions why there's enough uncertainty about the early days that he himself can't say the central government's officials were informed. And that's the same guy that wrote this [apnews.com] so I'm pretty sure he's no party spokesman.
Regardless, my only point is that CNN weren't being "inherently self-contradictory" and I think I've explained why. As for the actual story, I don't know. I don't speak Chinese nor do I follow up on the issue.
compiling...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday December 06 2020, @05:28PM (2 children)
I see this a lot in governments all over the world (not something unique to China for those thinking about a little Whataboutism). You can tell how sanctioned a misdeed is by how they deal with the culprits. For another example, Saudi Arabia sentenced five [soylentnews.org] to death in the assassination of journalist Kamal Khashoggi. At first, that sounded pretty serious (as I noted in my journal at the link). Now the five are sentenced to 20 years due to an alleged appeal [bbc.com] from the family of Khashoggi for leniency.
Maybe they'll serve that latter sentence, maybe not, but they're getting treated a lot better than anyone else would be, given the circumstances of the murder. That indicates that the murder of Khashoggi was sanctioned by someone in authority (which I doubt surprises anyone, this just is more supporting evidence of that).
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Monday December 07 2020, @04:50PM (1 child)
Too many officials were involved for it to remain a secret. A more likely conspiracy would be one following Hanlon's razor where the officials fucked up not reporting sooner to protect personal business interests and when the shit hit the fan they worked their party ties to protect themselves from prosecution.
Regardless, for CNN there's no evidence to conclude either way so they have to do the responsible thing and say as much.
compiling...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday December 07 2020, @06:41PM
I think Hanlon's razor cuts a different way here. Whistleblowing isn't a thing in China. It would be reasonable to expect the secret to remain secret. And connections and personal business interests don't matter when the central authority is embarrassed. Someone takes the fall. They wouldn't crucify everyone involved, but enough to make an example.
My take is that the central government was in on the loop from somewhere near the beginning. The appearance of lack of full control combined with mass panic would be a threat.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Samantha Wright on Wednesday December 02 2020, @11:55AM (1 child)
It's a bad sentence, but it is analogous to the truth. What occurred was reflexive dishonesty, rather than a concerted conspiracy to deceive. This also happened during the Great Leap Forward, when every single farm bragged about beating their production quotas and then suffered mightily when they had to give up the reported surplus to feed the cities. No one planned the famine that followed, but it was concealed from the top, out of embarrassment, and no lessons were learned. It's a serious cultural problem within the CCP, and probably the single biggest threat to their survival.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 02 2020, @07:59PM
So essentially, CNN's reporting style is a danger to the existence of America.