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posted by martyb on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:52AM   Printer-friendly

[ED NOTE: Editors discussed whether we should even run this story. I decided to take a chance. BUT, it's up to the community how this goes. Feel free to downmod comments that attack the *commenter* rather than *add* something to the discussion.--martyb]

Growing extremism can and has turned almost anything into a political struggle in which people pay diminishing attention to the topics and more to the 'tribal' group that they may be associated with. We've seen the effects on the functioning on the US congress, as well as in how laws on various topics have been playing out lately.

But the idea that without a center, things fall apart, may be more real than we thought, as this article at ScienceBlog about a Cornell study describes: https://scienceblog.com/527200/tipping-point-makes-partisan-polarization-irreversible/

It seems that up to a point, it is possible to reverse the polarization. Beyond that tipping point, it cannot. From what I've seen, the US is probably in the vicinity of that tipping point. The pattern described here sounds an awful lot like the period-doubling path to chaos, a mathematical construct in which a function that has a single stable state in one range of numbers starts developing two stable states, and then four, until stability is lost and the set devolves into chaos. If this reflection has any validity in the political or social realms, then we should also have seen the same pattern play out within discussions that turn to chaos.

Is there predictive power in this observation by the researchers at Cornell? If so, can anything be done to head it off, or are we all doomed to watch it play out?

Journal Reference:
Michael W. Macy, Manqing Ma, Daniel R. Tabin, et al. Polarization and tipping points [$], Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (DOI: 10.1073/pnas.2102144118)


Original Submission

Related Stories

Computer Model Seeks to Explain The Spread of Misinformation, and Suggest Counter Measures 142 comments

We've previously discussed ( https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=21/12/11/1847236 ) how it becomes impossible to reverse the polarization of a community once their differences become too great, and how that plays out both here at SN and in the wider world. Science Blog has a piece ( https://scienceblog.com/527745/computer-model-seeks-to-explain-the-spread-of-misinformation-and-suggest-counter-measures/ ) about a PLOS paper titled "Cognitive cascades: How to model (and potentially counter) the spread of fake news" ( https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0261811 ) which uses an interesting computer model to explore how this actually happens.

The model demonstrated that if the new information is too much at odds with a person's existing belief, it will be ignored. Furthermore, if that belief is connected with the person's identity, their current belief will be strengthened as a defense against cognitive dissonance. Interestingly, though, a succession of new information that gradually nudge the person to adjust their beliefs can, over time, cause the person to adopt a belief that is very different from the one they started with. This sounds like how psy-ops manipulate targets to accept extreme views.

What was the gradual change of ideas that have led national political parties to be ever more different from one another, and who fed them those messages?


Original Submission

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  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:05AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:05AM (#1204089)

    You Can See Them When You're Driving.............

    RIP TERRY

  • (Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:06AM (23 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:06AM (#1204090)

    Editors discussed whether we should even run this story. I decided to take a chance. BUT, it's up to the community how this goes. Feel free to downmod comments that attack the *commenter* rather than *add* something to the discussion.

    There's not enough mod points in the world to prevent this from becoming a shit show. You're faith in the community here is misplaced martyb.

    • (Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:12AM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:12AM (#1204094)

      You're faith in the community here is misplaced

      So is your apostrophe, that makes us even

      • (Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:28AM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:28AM (#1204101)

        that makes us even

        I think you also missed the point.

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:37AM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:37AM (#1204105)

          And I think whoosh!, so there, we're even again, no wait, I win..

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:33AM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:33AM (#1204135)

            You both lose. You're losers. Fuck you.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @01:16PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @01:16PM (#1204190)

              no'o fuck you and the gp too.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @01:35PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @01:35PM (#1204198)

              who was trying to win or lose?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:53AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:53AM (#1204109)

        Oddly, I agree.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by gznork26 on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:19AM (12 children)

      by gznork26 (1159) on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:19AM (#1204098) Homepage Journal

      I know it's kind of meta, but having a discussion about the tipping point in the fragmentation of a community itself demonstrate the point of the research actually reinforces their conclusion. if SN is a microcosm of the larger problem, can we prevent this turning into a shitstorm, or is it, as they say, inevitable?

      • (Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:34AM (10 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:34AM (#1204104)

        You must be new here.

        • (Score: 4, Funny) by Phoenix666 on Sunday December 12 2021, @01:12PM (9 children)

          by Phoenix666 (552) on Sunday December 12 2021, @01:12PM (#1204189) Journal

          Nah, his/her userID is fairly low, so not new here. Instead what we have here is a very rare sighting of homo lurkis, a creature drawn out of hiding by unusual changes in its environment, such as dramatic climate shifts or peanut butter shortages...

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:26PM (8 children)

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:26PM (#1204239) Journal

            He was also the original submitter - he was hoping (as were we) that we could have a sensible discussion about this.

            • (Score: 4, Troll) by Frigatebird on Monday December 13 2021, @01:28AM (3 children)

              by Frigatebird (15573) on Monday December 13 2021, @01:28AM (#1204468)

              This is the major blindspot of the editores! There is no "division", there is only a tiny minority of fascists trying to "teach the controversy", because that normalizes their racist and otherwise nasty reactionary positions. Even saying we are going to have a "discussion" means these cretins are claiming a place at the table, so they can say that their opinions are just as valid as anyone else's, and that people only down-mod them because they "disagree" with "other viewpoints". You have already fallen for the trap, janrinok, you have taken the bait.

              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday December 13 2021, @04:41AM (2 children)

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @04:41AM (#1204523) Journal

                Even saying we are going to have a "discussion"

                This is a discussion site - we are going to have discussions.

                they can say that their opinions are just as valid as anyone else's

                Everyone - even those you do not like or do not share your political views - is entitled to express their opinion. It is not the place for you to dictate what people can discuss or what views they may espouse. Freedom of speech is not only for those who agree with you.

                You have already fallen for the trap, janrinok, you have taken the bait.

                ... so said Aristarchus. Oh, I must have misread the username.

                • (Score: 2, Troll) by Frigatebird on Monday December 13 2021, @07:16PM (1 child)

                  by Frigatebird (15573) on Monday December 13 2021, @07:16PM (#1204708)

                  Seriously? "Hitler did some good!" "Mussolini made the trains run on time." "Only Trump can fix it." Oh, yes, these fascist bastards have the freedom of speech, they also have the right to the consequences of their speech, such as 2000lb munitions and being punched in the face. Do you not recognize the strategy of "normalization"? Also used by pedophiles and serial killers. "It's just another lifestyle, as valid as any other!" Except it involves raping children and murder, I guess. Time to get woke, Chamberlain, I mean, janrinok!

                  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:59PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:59PM (#1205103)

                    Yes the editors have some serious selection bias and favor rightwing narratives. Nit much to do about it, just keep highlighting the issue because once you stop the normalization is complete. The site is better, we're down to Runaway's rhetoric and thinly veiled racism, oh and one or two other bigots, probably AC Runaway/apk.

            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday December 13 2021, @01:37AM (2 children)

              by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday December 13 2021, @01:37AM (#1204469) Journal

              Yes, I know he was the original submitter. I was trying to lighten the mood. Remember the old days, when we used to poke fun at ourselves as basement dwelling nerds who are clueless when talking to the opposite sex, and such like?

              Part of having a good conversation is to not have everything be sturm und drang all the time.

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday December 13 2021, @04:46AM

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @04:46AM (#1204526) Journal

                I apologise. I also wish the site could be more light-hearted sometimes - but intelligent wit seems to have been buried in a stream of abuse and invective nowadays.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @11:16AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @11:16AM (#1204579)

                clueless when talking to the opposite sex

                I resent that! I am clueless when talking to persons of all sexes and genders! And I do mean all. You should see how confused I get when someone says they identify as an attack helicopter. Does being controlled by joystick turn them on? Is it mostly a military thing? But I'm always too afraid to ask. What if they don't like the questioning and react violently and without asking my consent, as attack helicopters are known to do? Or is that just bigotry against helicopters?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 16 2021, @03:30PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 16 2021, @03:30PM (#1205587)

              he was hoping (as were we) that we could have a sensible discussion about this.

              Obviously, you all must be new here.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by ilsa on Monday December 13 2021, @03:23PM

        by ilsa (6082) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @03:23PM (#1204643)

        We've been seeing this here for a long time. Users like Runaway and khallow have shown countless times that they will twist any fact as long as it ends up supporting their "tribe". From cherry picking, to mischaracterizing the context, to projection, to outright fabrication. They care more about defending their side than admitting reality.

        And then, laughably, they get upset when others call them on their bullshit, but never once do they take a step back and think that maybe they are wrong.

        It's frustrating that they post so much, cause it's a hassle having to wade through their nonsense while trying to read the genuinely constructive comments.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:24PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:24PM (#1204238)
      This was s certainly a valid topic, and one that some of us have been predicting for a couple of decades. No civilization lasts forever, no country lasts forever. Thank Ronald Reagan and the immoral "moral majority " for this latest failure. And the founding fathers, a bunch of slave owners, who wanted the rural minority to be the landed gentry running things in perpetuity.
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Monday December 13 2021, @01:50AM

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday December 13 2021, @01:50AM (#1204472) Journal

        Thank Ronald Reagan and the immoral "moral majority " for this latest failure. And the founding fathers, a bunch of slave owners, who wanted the rural minority to be the landed gentry running things in perpetuity.

        I and plenty of others point this out on a regular basis, but the elites in our world are all on the same team, and we're not on it. They belong to the same clubs, open doors for each other's children, vacation in the same places at the same seasons, and have far more in common with each other than the people with the same nominal nationality on their passports.

        The people who live in the Beltway are in a state of perpetual war---with the rest of America. All the machinery of government Americans pay for, all the weapons, all the tools, are all used not against Russia, or China, or North Korea, or Iran, but against Americans. If you tell that to Americans who are taught that they live in a democracy whose government works for the people, they react with shock, denial, and disgust; if you tell that to elites, they react with, "No D'uh."

        The only thing the elites really fear is that all Americans wake up to that reality at the same time, and do something about it. Everything else is an opportunity to knife others for gain.

        So please stop selling the lie which the elites push, that one political tribe is better than another. That is kabuki theater meant to divide and conquer.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:08AM (13 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:08AM (#1204091)

    I hope I'm old enough not to have to watch it play out

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:37AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:37AM (#1204106)

      I always was hard of hearing. I was humping the snark in '68.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by FatPhil on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:20PM (3 children)

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:20PM (#1204237) Homepage
      What happened in '68?
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 4, Informative) by captain normal on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:03PM

        by captain normal (2205) on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:03PM (#1204334)

        In 1968 Bobby Kennedy was murdered just as he won the California primary and had wrapped up the Democratic nomination for President. The Democratic Convention in 1968 was a mess, with riots in the streets and infighting in the convention hall. They wound up nominating Hubert Humphrey who lost the election to Tricky Dick.

        --
        When life isn't going right, go left.
      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:07PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:07PM (#1204374)

        The dems threw the election by nominating the weakest pro war candidate, despite the popular vote during the primaries going for someone entirely different. They did the same ever since, which is why Trump won in '16. It's why they keep super delegates, to override the actual vote.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @10:25PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @10:25PM (#1204774)

          Troll

          *sigh* as usual, the dems can't handle the truth about themselves

    • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:58PM (1 child)

      by mhajicek (51) on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:58PM (#1204290)

      Said shark was jumped in the 1930's, when it was ruled that the commerce clause gave the federal government the power to control anything that could possibly effect interstate commerce. Since that covers literally everything, there has been no practical limit to it's "authority".

      --
      The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:42PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:42PM (#1204316)

        So you must be pretty happy about the Protecting our Democracy Act [thehill.com]? No you aren't? Shut the fuck up then, asshat.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:53PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:53PM (#1204370)
      Depends. Probably not going to live long enough if you're republican. We can't fix stupid, but covid is doing a good job of thinning the herd. Herd immunity the easy way - people deciding to make themselves vulnerable to a deadly disease.

      Some people are bitching that we're cheering on their deaths - we're respecting their freedom to prove stupid is as stupid does. If someone wilfully kill's themselves because of stupid behaviour that puts others at risk, and their death reducithe risk, we should all be cheering - they got what they asked for and the world is a better place without them.

      Not our problem republican politicians are killing their own people:

      • (Score: 2, Troll) by Phoenix666 on Monday December 13 2021, @01:57AM (4 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday December 13 2021, @01:57AM (#1204475) Journal

        It's honest that you are cheering for Republicans to die. What is less honest is to try to force them to do something they don't want to do.

        Let the Republicans refuse vaccinations and die, if you think that's what's going to happen. But stop trying to lock everything down and mandate vaccinations and put people in camps. Tyrants do that.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday December 13 2021, @04:31AM (3 children)

          by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @04:31AM (#1204517) Homepage Journal

          The "camps" are called hospital emergency rooms.

          • (Score: 1, Troll) by Phoenix666 on Monday December 13 2021, @04:14PM (2 children)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday December 13 2021, @04:14PM (#1204655) Journal

            Pretty odd emergency rooms [realclearpolitics.com].

            Are concentration camps ever a hallmark of democracy? We were all supposed to have learned that Manzanar [nps.gov] was a mistake, not to be repeated.

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:12AM (62 children)

    by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:12AM (#1204093)

    https://www.pnas.org/content/118/50/e2102144118 [pnas.org]

    There may be some rose-colored glasses on thinking we all came together to deal with the depression or WWII. It may simply have been easier to silence and suppress the losers in the conflicts then than it is now.

    There's big money in promoting tribal division. Get your audience into gut-reaction mode, and they're perfect prey for your advertisers.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:47AM (61 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:47AM (#1204107) Journal

      Came here searching for the place to say much the same.

      I didn't know that there ever was a time when the "fabric" was whole. The center has never ruled, at least not in the US. Probably nowhere, ever. Human history is filled with violence because humans are violent.

      Tipping point? I have no idea where the tipping point was, but I think we've passed it. https://soylentnews.org/breakingnews/article.pl?sid=21/12/12/0338238 [soylentnews.org] We have Soylentils gloating that people died in a red state, FFS. Journal entries have been posted on the same theme - gloating over dead people in red states.

      The crazies are out in full force. I know which camp I'll gravitate toward. I won't be joining the camp, but I'll be around. I hope to see some of you there!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:00AM (50 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:00AM (#1204114)

        The crazies are out in full force.

        Toldja warming's coming with extreme weather events, ye didn't listen at the time and went ahead act crazy just to spite me. Ye started it, asshole.

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by khallow on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:26AM (14 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:26AM (#1204125) Journal

          Toldja warming's coming with extreme weather events,

          And I toldja that extreme weather events would happen anyway, no matter how climate changes. Here's another thing I toldja [soylentnews.org]:

          What I think is particularly ridiculous about this discussion is that the narrative moved on years ago. Sure, climate change must have a negative effect on a variety of extreme weather events, but this is dwarfed by non-climate factors like idiots building in harm's way, or insufficient emergency preparedness. Climate change hysteria creates yet another opportunity to ignore things that work.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by FatPhil on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:00PM (2 children)

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:00PM (#1204257) Homepage
            > extreme weather events would happen anyway, no matter how climate changes

            Mathematically, they won't. Eventually, almost all weather becomes mundane, because the extremes will already have been hit in the past. It's only if there's an underlying trend moving the average that extremes will continue to be made.

            Note - I'm not saying that this season is or isn't an extreme one, I'm simply addressing the mathematics of your claim.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:41PM (1 child)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:41PM (#1204315) Journal

              Mathematically, they won't. Eventually, almost all weather becomes mundane, because the extremes will already have been hit in the past. It's only if there's an underlying trend moving the average that extremes will continue to be made.

              Technically, given how crazy the world has been over its few billion year lifespan, would any sort of weather be extreme by your meaning above? Unprecedented weather is a subset of extreme weather which means merely weather well outside the present norm. The present norm would still exist even in the absence of climate change (which yes, I acknowledge is ongoing).

              • (Score: 3, Touché) by hendrikboom on Monday December 13 2021, @04:34AM

                by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @04:34AM (#1204519) Homepage Journal

                After al, remember the old days when rocks kept falling out of the sky -- enough to keep the ground molten?
                Neither do I. I'm only 75 years old.
                I don't remember that kind of climate.

                maybe ari?

                -- hendrik

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by mcgrew on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:21PM (10 children)

            by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:21PM (#1204347) Homepage Journal

            this is dwarfed by non-climate factors like idiots building in harm's way

            Can you name a single spot on Earth that is immune to natural disasters? The tornadoes weren't a flood in a flood plain, your statement is like Reagan saying "a rising tide lifts all boats" when only those who paid capital gains taxes had their boats lifted. Yes, people build in flood plains but these people didn't build their houses somewhere like Oklahoma where you can expect tornadoes. THIS WAS A HISTORIC EVENT, with the longest track and the most tornadoes in history. There is no way to prepare for tornadoes except to make sure you have a basement, which will save your life but not your house or its contents. Global warming is, in fact, what is causing the record breaking weather events almost annually for the last decade, Mr. Ostrich.

            --
            mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 13 2021, @02:54AM (5 children)

              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 13 2021, @02:54AM (#1204498)

              >Global warming

              Thanks to the polar oscillation, which is causing record lows to be set in North America and Europe, we don't call it that anymore.

              Now it's Climate change.

              And, yes, those record lows are caused by unprecedented (in recorded human history) amounts of energy trapped in the atmosphere by CO2 and other factors.

              --
              🌻🌻 [google.com]
              • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:31PM (4 children)

                by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:31PM (#1205055) Homepage Journal

                Climate change is caused by global warming, which is the rise in the Earth's average temperature. To speak of one is to speak of both.

                --
                mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
                • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 14 2021, @09:00PM (3 children)

                  by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @09:00PM (#1205105)

                  But, to call it warming when record low temperatures are being recorded is to invite idiots' derision and give them more fodder to yuk it up with their fellow idiots about how "dem scientists don' kno' nuttin!"

                  Climate change, due to increased retention of heat energy, is the less easily lampooned and more complete description.

                  --
                  🌻🌻 [google.com]
                  • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday December 18 2021, @08:50PM (2 children)

                    by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Saturday December 18 2021, @08:50PM (#1206211) Homepage Journal

                    Yes, that is indeed why they don't want to say "global warming" even though both the mean and median temperatures are rising, but I don't say or refrain from saying something just because people are stupid and ignorant. Stupidity is to be pitied, not kowtowed to.

                    --
                    mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
                    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday December 19 2021, @05:32AM (1 child)

                      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday December 19 2021, @05:32AM (#1206306)

                      Making it harder for idiots to ignore the facts is far from kowtowing - it's edjamuhkashun.

                      --
                      🌻🌻 [google.com]
                      • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday December 19 2021, @06:04PM

                        by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Sunday December 19 2021, @06:04PM (#1206415) Homepage Journal

                        Education is explaining the facts to them. Yes, idiots are hard to teach, but it ain't rocket surgery.

                        --
                        mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
            • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday December 13 2021, @04:36AM (2 children)

              by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @04:36AM (#1204521) Homepage Journal

              And when Antarctica melts completely, sea level will rise to something like 90 metres.
              I'm in Montreal. I thought I was on high ground. Guess not.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @01:02PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @01:02PM (#1204602)

                There has to be a joke about Montreal and high ground hidden in there . . .

              • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:34PM

                by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:34PM (#1205056) Homepage Journal

                By the time it's that bad, everyone will be long dead.

                --
                mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @10:58PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @10:58PM (#1204787)

              Can you name a single spot on Earth that is immune to natural disasters?

              Bunches. Most of the American Southwest and Northern Mexico, for example, excluding California, obviously.

              No risk of major earthquakes. Little tiny ones happen sometimes.
              Not enough trees for a wildfire.
              Much too far from the ocean for a hurricane or tsunami.
              Tornadoes really only happen farther east.
              There are no deadly diseases, like malaria.
              Too warm for a destructive winter storm.
              Too dry for a flood.
              No active volcanoes nearby. Even the Yellowstone supervolcano is out of range if you go far enough south, not that it's a realistic threat on the timescale of a human lifetime.
              The only major thing that might happen is an asteroid strike. Obviously, that can happen anywhere, but the risk of it happening in any particular place is extremely small.

              Beyond that, your biggest risk is getting bitten by a rattlesnake.

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:14AM (33 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:14AM (#1204133) Journal

          When I was just a little boy, I sat in a classroom, and listened to a teacher explaining about the end of the ice age. It was an awesome story, with mastodons, and saber tooth tigers, and all sorts of really cool stuff. I listened to the history of the world warming, and I asked way back then, "Well, how warm is it going to get?" It doesn't take a freaking genius to figure it out. You don't need a rocket scientist, or even a rocket surgeon. No need to spend 18 years acquiring a super-duper doctorate's degree in interpretive underwater basket weaving. We were exiting an ice age, the earth was warming up, and a lot of history demonstrated that the earth was continuing to warm.

          Maybe, just maybe, the earth is 3 degrees warmer today than it would be if there were no men on the planet. Maybe. But, the earth was going to warm, with or without men.

          How many of you understand that Antarctica was once a tropical paradise? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/17/antarctica-tropical-climate-co2-research [theguardian.com]

          Antarctica is the coldest, most desolate place on Earth, a land of barren mountains buried beneath a two-mile thick ice cap. Freezing winds batter its shores while week-long blizzards frequently sweep its glaciers.

          Yet this icy vision turns out to be exceptional. For most of the past 100 million years, the south pole was a tropical paradise, it transpires.

          "It was a green beautiful place," said Prof Jane Francis, of Leeds University's School of Earth and Environment. "Lots of furry mammals including possums and beavers lived there. The weather was tropical. It is only in the recent geological past that it got so cold."

          Hey, people. The earth is growing warmer.

          Adapt.

          Adapt, or die. Your choice. You decide. Just please stop your incessant whining. And, turn down CNN noise - it grates on my nerves.

          • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:37AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:37AM (#1204137)

            > No need to spend 18 years acquiring a super-duper doctorate's degree in interpretive underwater basket weaving.
            > We were exiting an ice age, the earth was warming up, and a lot of history demonstrated that the earth was continuing to warm.

            And then we burnt 65 million years worth of trees in 100 years.

            • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @08:09AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @08:09AM (#1204151)

              Yeah - we did that. Now, show us cause and effect, and prove it.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @03:52AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @03:52AM (#1204510)

                "Yep, we did it, and you'll never prove it."

          • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @08:27AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @08:27AM (#1204153)

            (the disconnect is strong with this one)

            Journal entries have been posted on the same theme - gloating over dead people in red states.

            only to switch ye saying t'

            Adapt, or die. Your choice. You decide. Just please stop your incessant whining.

            Shuddup, Runaway, an' git busy adapting. Or die, ye choice.
            An' yeah, realize (or learn) mah gloatin' has no bearin' on your choice, nature will deepfuck ye asshole anywho. And your granddaughter's too, her even deeper then yours, 'coz things ain't gonna get better.

            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @10:21AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @10:21AM (#1204166)

              What you're saying is that he's chosen the, "molest your own kids in the (rain)showers", method spoused by Biden [then24.com]?

              It's a free country--he can clearly fuck his own kids.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:46PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:46PM (#1204318)

                Josh Duggar? Is that you come to lecture us on morality?

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:29PM (11 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:29PM (#1204242)

            I guess nobody ever explained Continental Drift to you or that Antarctica hasn't always been at the South Pole?

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:57PM (10 children)

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:57PM (#1204255) Journal

              Continental drift takes millions of years. For Antarctica to have "drifted" to the south pole in less than 100,000 years, the crust of the earth would have been so fluid that the continents should have sunk into the molten lava beneath them.

              And, it didn't take thousands of years for Antarctica to ice up, either. Didn't take tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. I've searched and searched for an ancient article I read many years ago.

              They took an ice core, something like 2 kilometers of ice in the core. Sectioned it up, and started analyzing what they found. They found tropical ferns at the bottom. Not some rotten sludge that eventually got frozen, but fern leaves. Tropical ferns that were obviously alive and healthy, then frozen overnight, and encased in ice before they could decompose.

              Perhaps the entire continent wasn't frozen overnight, but it didn't take hundreds of thousands of years either.

              Again, they have found the remains of mammals and marsupials in Antarctica. Dinosaurs are no surprise - dinosaurs were around for many millions of years, and your continental drift theory allows for them to be there. But mammals and marsupials haven't been around all that many millions of years.

              The icing of Antarctica is a much more recent event that previously thought.

              I suppose it's time for you to fall back on carbon in the atmosphere as "proof" of something or other. Except, some studies have shown that temperature rose before triggering carbon release, while other times, the carbon seems to have triggered a rise in temperature.

              What it all comes down to is, we don't understand climate change nearly so well as so-called scientists want to pretend.

              • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:19PM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:19PM (#1204268)

                They certainly understand it better than Runaway does.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:34PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:34PM (#1204278)

                  Nice post. You demonstrate an understanding of - nothing.

                  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:55PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @04:55PM (#1204289)

                    the crust of the earth would have been so fluid that the continents should have sunk into the molten lava beneath them.

                    Continents "float". Didn't they tell you that on Fox News?

              • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:49PM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:49PM (#1204319)

                > What it all comes down to is, we don't understand climate change nearly so well as so-called scientists want to pretend.

                And so....? Shut down monitoring stations? Nobody understands the tides, God did it, I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA.

                • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday December 13 2021, @02:10AM (1 child)

                  by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday December 13 2021, @02:10AM (#1204479) Journal

                  So...can you explain what the Little Ice Age [wikipedia.org] was all about, then? It was an abrupt, significant shift in climate that happened within recorded history. Did reforestation efforts in Asia bring about the drop in temperatures because it pulled too much carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere? Was it the climb in the whale oil trade that was responsible for dumping enough CO2 back into the air to warm things up again?

                  After all, if all climate change is anthropogenic then there must have been something in their climate accords and industrial policies then that caused it, right?

                  Or, maybe it's possible for the climate to change quickly without humans having much to do with it.

                  --
                  Washington DC delenda est.
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @11:26AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @11:26AM (#1204581)

                    Or, maybe it's possible for the climate to change quickly without humans having much to do with it.

                    Sure. Look at the mass extinction boundaries. Lots of events can occur.

                    But "climate change gaused mass extinctions in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event [wikipedia.org] without humans involved" doesn't in any way imply that human-driven climate change isn't powering a mass extinction, right now, as I type and as you read.

              • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:32PM (1 child)

                by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:32PM (#1204358) Homepage Journal

                Perhaps the entire continent wasn't frozen overnight, but it didn't take hundreds of thousands of years either.

                It wouldn't have to. An asteroid strike like killed the dinosaurs or bigger, perhaps coupled with volcanic activity could cause a rapid global cooling. There was an item on Nova last week about the rise of mammals that stated that global cooling helped kill off the dinos; it got cold rapidly and took years to recover.

                Imagine if an asteroid hit Yellowstone? We wouldn't have to worry about global warming any more, North Americans would be dead and Europeans, South Americans, Asians and Africans would be scrambling to stay warm, even on the equator.

                --
                mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @04:40AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @04:40AM (#1204522)

                  Younger Dryas Impact was the most recent asteroid strike. Right around the area you mentioned (US/Canada northwest). Did exactly what you surmised. Climate went mental for about 2000 years afterwards.

                  I wonder how long it takes a planet to return to a climatic "normal" after such an event...12800 years is peanuts when discussing events of that magnitude.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @12:15PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @12:15PM (#1204592)

                Perhaps the entire continent wasn't frozen overnight, but it didn't take hundreds of thousands of years either.

                Yeah, it took a few million years to ice over.

                https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/how-long-has-antarctica-been-frozen/ [sciencefocus.com]

                Antarctica first had glaciers at the end of the Devonian period, around 350 million years ago. But it was still joined to the Gondwana supercontinent at that time and in any case the climate wasn’t cold enough for it to freeze completely. There are fossils of plants from this era.

                The polar ice caps melted for a while after that and it wasn’t until Africa and Antarctica separated around 160 million years ago that it began to cool again. By 23 million years ago, Antarctica was mostly icy forest and for the last 15 million years, it has been a frozen desert under a thick ice sheet.

                Sorry for quoting the ENTIRE thing there, I hope it's not too long.

                Just because you have something intact in ice, doesn't mean conditions changed instantly. They just changed instantly for that one thing at that particular time. Also, ever heard of this?

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicksonia_antarctica [wikipedia.org]

                This plant is particularly suited to garden planting and landscaping purposes. As an ornamental plant, it is hardy to about −5 °C

                So, it survives just fine, like many many plants, in the frozen areas. You have ice there and the plant and the plant still alive. It's not exactly a tropical sweet potato that was found in ice now, was it?

                • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 13 2021, @12:40PM

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @12:40PM (#1204597) Journal

                  The terms used were "tropical fern", not "arctic fern". Nice try though.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by mhajicek on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:06PM (14 children)

            by mhajicek (51) on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:06PM (#1204291)

            Yes, the Earth would likely get warmer anyway, but it's a question of rate. The change of rate since the start of industry is quite extreme.

            Here's the obligatory XKCD:
            https://xkcd.com/1732/ [xkcd.com]

            --
            The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:29PM (13 children)

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:29PM (#1204306) Journal

              Yeah, Randall buys into Al Gore's hockey stick chart. We've known that ever since Randall published that particular comic. Let's remember, it is a comic.

              • (Score: 5, Informative) by mhajicek on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:34PM (12 children)

                by mhajicek (51) on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:34PM (#1204311)

                A comic based on real data. There are many such charts from many different sources, and they have slight variations. The overall result is the same though. In order to disbelieve the hockey stick, you have to ignore all the data.

                --
                The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:42PM (7 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:42PM (#1204317) Journal

                  A comic based on real data.

                  Then where are the error bars?

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:52PM (2 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:52PM (#1204322)

                    What is this, peer review? You're a comic, dude.

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:23PM (1 child)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:23PM (#1204351) Journal
                      It's a comic by a scientist. Error bags are part of the package when you talk about real data.
                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @01:26AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @01:26AM (#1204467)

                        lolbags

                  • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:27PM (3 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:27PM (#1204353)
                    Where are the error bars? They're wherever you and Runaway do your drinking.
                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday December 13 2021, @12:22PM (2 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @12:22PM (#1204593) Journal
                      The point is that we're missing a big part of the picture, namely, that the graph is a high level of guesswork before 1850, roughly the start of instrumentation. One way this shows up is in the absence of decade-scale climate change (in the modern record, there is a rise in global temperature from 1920 to 1950 followed by a shallow decline through to 1980 and then the present day sharp rise in global temperature with a modest pause in the 2000s decade - assuming the data is presented accurately).
                      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @05:01PM (1 child)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @05:01PM (#1204667)

                        The point is you are an anti-science shill who uses pseudo science to sow doubt. You are the W O R S T sort.

                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday December 13 2021, @11:54PM

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @11:54PM (#1204793) Journal
                          Ok, so what's supposed to be anti-science about that? Not on message?
                • (Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:39PM (2 children)

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:39PM (#1204380) Journal

                  Whoa now! Waitaminit! You're going to act like Al Gore's hockey stick was REAL DATA?!?!?!?! Even die-hard man-made climate change fanatics have disowned Al Gore's chart. If that chart had any relationship to reality, we should almost all be dead by now. It should be 100 degree F or more at both of the poles.

                  Any chart that resembles Al Gore's chart is a comic.

                  And, I thought you were being serious for awhile there. You fooled me!

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:42PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @07:42PM (#1204381)

                    https://news.yahoo.com/ocasio-cortez-world-going-end-150517060.html [yahoo.com]

                    This is the kind of moronic shit flowing from the mouths of liberals that make you all look stupid. Lay off the hyperbole, and stick to some kind of rhetoric that associates with reality from time to time.

                  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @12:14AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @12:14AM (#1204455)

                    And 'ere ye go crazy again [soylentnews.org].

                • (Score: 3, Touché) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 13 2021, @02:59AM

                  by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 13 2021, @02:59AM (#1204502)

                  >you have to ignore all the data.

                  No, you don't. You only have to ignore the data which disagrees with your point of view, like they always have done anyway. The fact that 99% of the data disagrees with their point of view this time is immaterial, all that other data wasn't collected by "their people" the ones they trust, the ones who tell them what they're paid to tell them.

                  --
                  🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @02:20PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @02:20PM (#1204216)

          And you'll accept that anyone who lives in CA and complains about earthquakes or fires is a fucking retard?

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by helel on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:01PM (3 children)

        by helel (2949) on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:01PM (#1204228)

        I don't feel like one AC troll is proof of much at all. If people posting stupid and hurtful things online was the point of no return we'd have passed it in, what, 1985?

        When you have leaders you consider bad but everyone agrees on the systems used to put them in power and replace them later you get the (relative) stability we've enjoyed. The problem comes when a large enough group stops accepting the systems of power exchange and starts breaking the rules, both legal and conventional, to exclude their opponents. How would requiring prospective voters to show their vax card before casting a ballot sound to you?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:54PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @05:54PM (#1204323)

          That sounds like enhanced election security. Gotta stop them darn legals from voting.

        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 13 2021, @03:09AM (1 child)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 13 2021, @03:09AM (#1204505)

          I'm pretty sure we had flame wars on BBSs in 1982, at 300 baud it was hard to tell sometimes, but there was definite animosity in those short discussion threads.

          --
          🌻🌻 [google.com]
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @01:09PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @01:09PM (#1204604)

            We had flame wars on the town square in 1482.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:20PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @03:20PM (#1204236)

        Let's Go Newsom!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:10PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12 2021, @06:10PM (#1204338)

        Because you did it to yourselves you idiots.

        Scientists and the left have been warning you for decades.

        And even this won't convince you of the need to make changes to reduce AGW.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday December 14 2021, @01:41AM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 14 2021, @01:41AM (#1204830) Journal

          Scientists and the left have been warning you for decades.

          And even this won't convince you of the need to make changes to reduce AGW.

          Why should it? You've already mentioned one of the problems with the narrative. There's been a lot of warning with significantly less climate change for decades. If that change is slow enough (and well, I think it at present is slow enough), then the need to make changes to reduce AGW is in the future not the present. We have other important tasks than just maintaining a particular level of CO2 in the atmosphere.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @11:59AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13 2021, @11:59AM (#1204585)

        The center has never ruled, at least not in the US. Probably nowhere, ever.

        Actually in most places for most of the peaceful, sane times where you can leave the house and not be summarily detained, those are the times ruled by the CENTER. Maybe you just don't recognize what CENTER actually means -- it means people from different sides of the debates can understand each other and come to sane conclusions. You know, like a compromise.

        Journal entries have been posted on the same theme - gloating over dead people in red states

        I don't know any such gloating but it seems like a logical conclusion, no? You don't want vaccine, you are more likely to be dead. Period.

        You know what a sane center on this debate would look like?

        1. one side wants mandatory vaccines to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Let's call them ANTI-VIRUS or AV group
        2. one side wants freedom from vaccine (and even little things like masks) and doesn't believe virus leads to overwhelmed hospitals contrary to evidence. Let's call them PRO-VIRUS or PV group

        compromise -- since AV values hospital access over freedom and PV values freedoms over hospital access, mandate priority access to hospital for non-COVID patients. For COVID patients, AV group is priority and PV group only on best-effort basis provided there is ample spare capacity. Then AV group will stop insisting on vaccine checks and mask mandates.

        Can we live with that compromise or is it all-or nothing plan?

        As a centrist, this would be a good compromise and since we have vaccines now, it's one way to start to "live with the virus" as it's definitely not going away. I would be more than happy to live with this compromise.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 13 2021, @01:16PM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 13 2021, @01:16PM (#1204607) Journal

          Actually in most places for most of the peaceful, sane times where you can leave the house and not be summarily detained, those are the times ruled by the CENTER.

          And, when exactly was that time, in US history? Americans have ALWAYS HAD a boogeyman to worry about. Right up until the late 1890s, Native Americans were subject to massacres, on the whim of any Army officer in the neighborhood. Then there's the racist anti-black history of the Democrats and their military arm, the KKK. Since 1900, we've had fewer, but continuing, actions against Native Americans, Blacks, Asians, two world wars, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and dozens of less publicized military actions around the world.

          Now you go ahead and find me a couple of peaceful months in the history of the US.

          We've always been at war with someone. Are you saying that the rational, sane center is responsible for all that killing?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @12:30PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @12:30PM (#1204936)

            We've always been at war with someone. Are you saying that the rational, sane center is responsible for all that killing?

            What I'm saying is this,

            https://www.history.com/news/the-story-behind-the-famous-little-rock-nine-scream-image [history.com]

            On one side you have the extremists that are afraid of things like having black people in same room. On the other, you want people to have instant-integration and to beat the bigots into submission. The result is small steps, one at a time, that pulls the extremists towards the center. Once you lose that pull and compromise, that's when trouble starts.

            And about "always at war with someone", that's a completely different topic that has little to do with internal cohesion in the country.

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