As China quietly joins sanctions against Russia, Xi might be too rational to risk arming Putin:
The protracted war in Ukraine has plainly caught China off guard and led to some confusion and mixed reports about the extent to which President Xi Jinping's regime supports Moscow's offensive. China continues to withhold explicit criticism of the Russian invasion and may still be working to formulate a coherent response. But beyond the rhetoric out of Beijing, the evidence suggests China is not acting to undermine the economic and financial sanctions on Russia and indeed has moved to support the drive to isolate Russia economically.
We believe this is the result of a cost-benefit calculation by Xi, who appears to be far more rational than Russia's President, Vladimir Putin.
Consider the following. From the outset of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, two major Chinese state-controlled banks have reportedly refused to provide US dollar-denominated letters of credit to finance imports from Russia. The Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, in which China is the largest shareholder, announced a suspension of any new lending to Russia. The New Development Bank (the so-called BRICS Bank), which is headquartered in Shanghai, made a similar announcement.
[...] Of course, tracking the full extent of this economic disengagement can be difficult, since Chinese firms are usually reluctant to make public statements. A Russian official responsible for maintaining airplane safety disclosed that China has refused to provide spare parts to Russia's commercial airline fleet (Boeing and Airbus had already announced a suspension of parts sales to Russia); the official has since been fired for his public statements about China. These parts almost certainly would have come from local inventories of China's major state-owned airlines.
Moreover, some noncompliant Chinese actions might be successfully concealed. But the actions noted above indicate that at least some Chinese companies and leaders are risk-averse and that China may be unlikely to provide military assistance to Russia, as some news accounts indicate, if only because the United States is likely to respond with a round of tough sanctions on China itself.
To be sure, China's global geopolitical objectives may in part align with Russia's. Moscow and Beijing share the view that the US is weakened economically and that its behaviour poses a security threat.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @12:44PM (11 children)
It's with Trust.
You can have all the talking heads with suits and ties you want, but in the end actions speak louder than words.
What is REALLY going on here?
More and more it looks like a Hollywood movie.
When does the Bollywood version come out, where India is playing both sides of the field?
(Score: 5, Funny) by looorg on Wednesday March 16 2022, @12:50PM (5 children)
I look forward to that movie version when Putin, Xi and Biden all just all of a sudden burst into song and dance ...
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday March 16 2022, @01:58PM
Here you go:
https://youtu.be/HzlvU58a-OE?t=302 [youtu.be]
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:07PM
... while the blood keeps flowing.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:10PM
Almost? [youtube.com]
(Score: 5, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday March 16 2022, @05:08PM
Singin' in Ukraine
(Score: 3, Touché) by Farkus888 on Wednesday March 16 2022, @05:34PM
Multiple YouTube links responding to you but no Springtime for Hitler. That is the real answer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @04:57PM (4 children)
India is in a tough position because they depend on Russian weapons to defend themselves from China. They are working on their own stuff, but that takes time. They can't support Ukraine publicly, but they've made it clear that they don't support Putin's war, either. Also, look how hard Biden had to work to get Germany on side with the sanctions, and yet Europe is still buying Russian natural gas. Think carefully about that, because Putin isn't the only one demanding "breathing room", and the West is far more dependent on China.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 16 2022, @07:16PM (1 child)
I was under the impression that they're doing that because they literally can't fulfill their energy needs on their own. You would rather they have state-mandated blackout periods or something? You can't scale up your power plant infrastructure overnight.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @03:14AM
Phasing out nuclear in favor of (Russian) gas was mind-numbingly dumb.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @12:54PM (1 child)
Everyone needs to remember that China is incredibly dependent upon the West, too. They need someone to buy what they make so that their people don't angrily tear down the government compound in Beijing.
China is working hard to build their hold on various client states in Asia and Africa with the "One Belt, One Road" initiative, but they don't have any real allies. There are a lot of overseas Chinese scattered around SE Asia, but Vietnam already kicked theirs out in the seventies and created the Boat People; there's nothing preventing other nations in ASEAN doing the same. ASEAN hates Japanese for WWII, but they fear China for the WWIII everyone knows is coming.
In short, China needs the rest of the world a whole lot more than the rest of the world needs China.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 18 2022, @02:25AM
Oh yeah. The famed revolution that is coming any day since last 15 years at least. The Economist said it.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by looorg on Wednesday March 16 2022, @12:47PM (27 children)
It is probably not in the interest of China to help Russia out, or to do it to publicly. China does China first. Their interest is probably to make Russia suffer long and hard, it's the superpower way. Fighting each other is almost pointless, it's so much better to just let the competition suffer at their own or others hands. In that regard they could offer "help", help to drag this shit out for as long as is possible. But still "help" so the poor people of Russia won't suffer to much, a humanitarian effort of sorts on their part. But still drag the war/conflict/whatever you like to call it out as long as is just possible. That way Russia gets weaker and gets completely fucked internationally, influence wise and economically which makes more room for China to seem less of a threat and more reliable by comparison.
From their perspective it's probably no great loss if Russia turns into a gigantic-sized North Korea like state. It limits Russian options and China can be all benevolent and glorious in their actions.
Alternatively they watch the whole thing as some kind of playbook of what would happen if they one morning decided that it was finally time to reclaim Taiwan back into the motherland again, except now they have the western-playbook and can have prepared countermeasures to any such sanctions. Also naturally the west would literally shit themselves if they had to sanction China that is more or less the core production facility of the world in regards to a lot of things.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 16 2022, @01:45PM (5 children)
Your view seems to be pretty accurate, but I think you've not stated an important factor. From China's perspective, the Ukraine war would ideally weaken both Russia and the US/West. If Chinese machinations can achieve that goal, then yes, Russia will get limited clandestine aid. But, China most certainly doesn't want to be caught doing so. They will throw Russia under the bus to avoid being publicly humiliated by being caught.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @03:43PM (2 children)
Correct. This article by the vice-chair of a CCP thinktank is apparently being censored in China.
https://uscnpm.org/2022/03/12/hu-wei-russia-ukraine-war-china-choice/ [uscnpm.org]
(w/o js: https://archive.ph/8Ts1h [archive.ph] ).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @04:53PM (1 child)
Unconditional surrender worked for Germany and Japan. It could work for Russia.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @06:38PM
Russian territory isn't under military attack, any climbdown will be seen as a humiliating defeat and it's now inevitable.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @11:12PM (1 child)
> ...being caught...
There is no "being caught". China is not a naughty schoolboy, they can do what the fuck they like. The West and Russia can make their own plastic Walmart garbage if they don't like it.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @12:58PM
Oh boy are you mistaken. First, tell us how Beijing keeps 1 billion Chinese happy and fed if the US Navy cuts off their access to the resources they don't have. We'll wait.
Second, the actual citizens in the West would happily make their own plastic Walmart garbage again, because it would mean they would be gainfully employed again. The only losers there are the coastal elites who have been selling out their country for decades.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday March 16 2022, @03:09PM (2 children)
Whatever the reasons, this is the best news of the entire war to-date, as long as it's not public misdirection for a backroom Russia-China alliance.
Of course, there are factions in China and the US which are covertly supporting Russia in the conflict - hopefully not large ones, but their very nature makes them hard to measure.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @08:30PM (1 child)
The supporters in the US are NOT covert. They are almost all of the Republican party and their propagandist media.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @11:16PM
It's more like 50-50 and kind of an existential angst. How to "support the troops" but be against the war, or be for the war but against Biden. A whole thorny knot that requires a simplistic analysis in terms of good guys and bad guys with lots of flags to explain which is which.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @04:03PM (1 child)
China has long term plans. USA's
oligarchsphilontrophists [fair.org] are unable to view anything that doesn't give short term benefit as having any value. They are bots running a greedy-algorithm, competing with each other.Russia is a major arms exporter to China's neighbours, including India. Russia is also a nuclear powered neighbour that can go to war with China. Russia has literally came in support of India everytime USA didn't. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for China to support Russia, except that it somehow "demonstrates" the democracy-loving superier culture to feel good about itself and that stupidity allows China to continue with its program.
Taking support away from Russia very slowly weakens China's adversaries and cements the new world order where USA's competetion is only China.
And the aforementioned superior liberal democratic culture will think that is a great news as long as the dictatorship in China is able to provide slaves. Ultimately, the philontrophists are anyway planning to go to mars while rest of the world suffers as slave. But hey - you will most likely not be rejected for that mars trip because of gender or race so that's a good thing! As long as you are onboard to leave the rest of us behind.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 17 2022, @02:31AM
Maybe China is smarter than those guys, but they probably aren't smarter than the long term profiteers.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @05:04PM
The thing is that if it gets as far as full on nukes, both sides are going to spare some for China. There is no way Russia or the USA is going to leave an undamaged China to rule the world while they get blasted back to the stone age.
(Score: 5, Informative) by pvanhoof on Wednesday March 16 2022, @05:18PM (12 children)
From the reports coming from the other side (ie. RT and other Russian propaganda) it's more likely that China will buy up the shares of Western businesses that are now quitting Russia and are about to get nationalized by the Kremlin.
Russian government has explicitly stated that every Western business that leaves Russia will likely be nationalized and then sold to the highest bidder, in Rubles. China has announced that they will increase their investments in Russia and will increase their energy sales from Russia. India , for example, has also mentioned that they will start buying in another currency than the US dollar. And Saudi Arabia is also thinking about it.
Geo-strategically I'm afraid that the Western world has cut off its own arm, gave the dead arm to Putin. And now Putin is going to sell the dead arm to China and other non-Western countries that depend on Russia's energy.
We are basically losing completely any and all of our power over Russia. The door is closed for both Western journalists and Businesses. What remains on Russian soil is to be nationalized and sold to the highest bidder and / or private profits for Putin's inner circle. Here in the EU we will pay for it all with huge huge gas prices and huge huge fuel prices that will be structurally higher for at least a decade.
I'm afraid we are having a lot, really a lot, of wishful thinking going on here in the Western world.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday March 16 2022, @06:23PM (5 children)
Yeah, I'm sure that plan to sell McDonalds to China, but only in Russia, is going to go swimmingly.
Jeebus, if I had a choice between nukes and fucking with McDonalds I think nukes would be the safer bet!
(Score: 2) by pvanhoof on Wednesday March 16 2022, @09:17PM (4 children)
I'm sure you think a Chinese McDonalds wont make much difference. But there are about 60 companies that got listed by the Russian government that will be asked whether they will leave Russia yes or no. And when the answer is yes, the Russian government has already said that it will nationalize them.
source [pledgetimes.com]
So to summarize...
I wonder how Germany feels about simply loosing overnight Russia's Porsche and Volkswagen factories. I wonder how The Netherlands feels like overnight loosing all of the oil and gas infrastructure that Shell ever invested in Russia. I wonder how the United States feels about loosing all Russian staff and infrastructure of Apple, Microsoft and IBM. Overnight.
You probably think: ahahahahah Russian government can never manage those firms well! No, sure. And they wont. They have already announced that they'll seek both foreign and internal investors for this. And China has already announced that it is interested. Overnight all these assets will be, for a very very cheap price and sold in Rubles, in Chinese hands. Russia's Shell, Volkswagen factories, Porsche, Apple, Microsoft and IBM.
Is that still ahahahaha?
Nope eh. It isn't.
(Score: 2) by corey on Wednesday March 16 2022, @09:58PM (1 child)
Yeah, agree generally. It’s a big short term gain for Putin, and longer term for China, India.
However, for Russia, no international company in their right mind would invest in the country for the foreseeable future, while Putin is in charge. How does that affect them in the long term? I guess China and co will step in to pick up the slack as others have said but it’s going to take time. How long do the people of Russia want to live like that?
(Score: 2) by pvanhoof on Wednesday March 16 2022, @10:14PM
Two things.
a) Putin, born in 1952, is now 69 - 70 years old. Putin is right now doing his last major things as Russian Tzar.
b) International firms and governments from India, China, Pakistan, Venezuela, Iran, etc have all announced they will continue doing business in Russia and with Russia.
About a), while Putin is going away between now and let's say 10 years: the consequences of this years' Western exodus out of Russia will last much much longer. b) Those consequences are mostly for the EU to deal with. As Russia will just shift over time to doing business outside of the Western world.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @10:08PM
This is more a gray area than usual, but *losing
lose = opposite of win
loose = opposite of tight
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:28AM
I'd be interested to know what the rich Russian Jews that own assets in the UK are thinking, facing the expropriation of their assets. I'd expect them to make an appeal with their co-religionists in the UK and America.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 16 2022, @07:11PM (3 children)
On the other hand, what is the point in having the power if you don't use it, e.g. trying to twist Russia's arm into stopping their invasion of Ukraine?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by pvanhoof on Wednesday March 16 2022, @09:25PM (2 children)
For the time being it's still the case that about 40% of Germany's gas comes from Russia.
That's was one way how this was having a point. For the coming decade or more will Germany be begging Russia for gas. This will very likely have a devastating effect on Germany's economy.
And when Germany's economy suffers, the entire EU's economy suffers. When the EU's economy really suffers hard, the "Western World"'s power is in decline.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 16 2022, @10:05PM (1 child)
Appeasement didn't work too well last time around (or in Crimea, for that matter). I'm not convinced that the whole West shrugging and not lifting a finger to help Ukraine would've been a better option.
And it isn't over just yet.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 20 2022, @12:48PM
Appeasement didn't work last time, but Putin is not Hitler. He is a corrupt old bastard, but he's telegraphed his moves far ahead of time. He has very obviously not been trying to conquer the Ukraine, but destroy it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @12:59AM
While I agree that losing the western companies that had set up in Russia will be an economic blow, I don't think it's as big of a deal as it could be--simply because the whole Russian economy (GNP, whatever) isn't that big. As noted here, https://gothamist.com/news/hochul-announces-new-york-will-not-do-business-russia [gothamist.com]
I checked a couple of sites and Hochul's claim checks out, all of the Russian economy is smaller than just NY State (which is not the largest state in the USA).
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 17 2022, @02:53AM
And we see some of that wishful thinking in your post. Russia is destroying the value of those businesses. A nationalized business in Russia is just a money sink. Chinese businesses won't pay good money for that crap.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Wednesday March 16 2022, @10:13PM
I wonder if a humiliating Russian defeat may be useful for China's internal propaganda. "Look at what happens to once-great Communist nations when they turn toward Democracy! They become failed states!"
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:04PM
That makes sense.
I think there's another dimension to China's stance vis-a-vis Russia. Russia has no bearing on what most folks traditionally consider to be China's geopolitical goals, ie. repatriating Taiwan and brushing back foreign influence in their part of the world. At most, Moscow is a cat's paw for the latter goal. So, what would weakening Russia gain China?
I submit that the interest China has in weakening Russia is to grab all those tasty, tasty resources in Siberia where there are about a grand total of five Russians living. I think about Putin thinking China has his back and what the look on his face would be when Chinese tanks roll over his eastern border and seize 7 time zones of his country. It puts a hearty chuckle in my belly.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @01:25PM (28 children)
While Biden makes Americans pay $5/gallon.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 16 2022, @01:49PM (12 children)
I think China and India may soon be looking at an oil glut. None of their alternative supplies have been cut, but Russia will soon be selling to both of them are discounted prices. If you are Chinese or Indian, the price you pay should be going down in a few weeks, or maybe a couple of months. And, both countries are in a position to manipulate currencies to make that discounted price even more favorable to themselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:02AM (11 children)
In that case, if Russia is selling cheap oil to their Eastern neighbors, a naive look at supply and demand suggests that some of the other suppliers to India and China will be losing market share. Thus the world price of oil might not go up much higher?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:08AM (10 children)
If we had a real free market, you would be correct. But, our supposed free market is driven by the fools on Wall Street.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @02:36AM
Odd, do you really think that Wall Street has significant control over oil prices?
One of the price surges (not all that long ago) was due to a hurricane damaging a refinery(s) -- hardly a financial manipulation.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 17 2022, @02:55AM (8 children)
In other words, a mostly free market as advertised. Oil prices will go up due to the uncertainties and the great inefficiency of running Russian oil through China and India first.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 17 2022, @03:11AM (7 children)
I live just outside one of the largest oil deposits in the world. Some of the best oil in the world too. There is little oil being pumped right now. Instead of freeing up a couple million barrels from the strategic reserve, maybe the administration should have told the oil companies to start pumping?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @03:19AM (5 children)
Speaking of pumping, you've got this quite backwards:
> Biden approval rating falling below 30%!
See for example, https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-bidens-approval-rating-really-rebounding/ [fivethirtyeight.com]
Don't worry about the oil well owners in your neighborhood, it may take them a few months but once the price stays up for awhile they will be back pumping again.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 17 2022, @03:31AM (4 children)
No worries about a half percentage point in Biden's approval rating. Harris is going to botch that for him. She made a speech about defending Ukraine and NATO, clearly indicating that she thought Ukraine was a member of NATO. Being polite, the Europeans didn't laugh her off the stage - they just snickered, and asked each other WTF that bimbo came from. And, of course, her 'constituency' doesn't know any better.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president-biden-job-approval-7320.html#! [realclearpolitics.com]
With approval ratings like that, you have to wonder how in hell he got elected, right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @05:14AM (1 child)
Ruminations of a disordered mind. Give it up, Runaway, clearly reality if beyond your mental abilities. Time to just refrain from commenting, lest ye drive SN into the ideological gutter that is the current Republican Mindset. Bannon not even building your wall, any more. People better and smarter than you are in charge. Time to retire, aged asshole!
(No So) Realclear-rightwing-Politics? Where is your RT citation? Are you still an ignorant moron, Runaway1952?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @08:51AM
Discussion of Trump's wall reminds me of:
"All in all you're just, another prick with no wall."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 20 2022, @12:57PM (1 child)
It's really rather bizarre that you hate him, considering Joe is the most conservative politician we've had in office in decades. I've been unpleasantly unsurprised about most of his reign, but his (or the Democrat machine's) strategic policy and propaganda team is obviously brilliant.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday March 20 2022, @02:51PM
Joe is a progressive, and he's an establishment man. Joe is not conservative. Maybe you're confusing 'right' with 'conservative'? The US is the chicken with two right wings, remember?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @08:08PM
Amazing how, from the Runaway point of view, everything is about Runaway, his experiences, his home address, his workplace, his being doxxed and phished. Seems like a lesser case of a Trump-like narcissimus. Who cares if you live in Iran, Runaway? How is this a contribution to the discussion here?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @01:52PM (3 children)
And all the Cucker Tarlson-suckers are happy to pump money into Russia for oil and and betray America so they can save a dollar.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday March 16 2022, @05:11PM (1 child)
I remember when propping up dictators for oil was a bad thing!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 20 2022, @01:00PM
When did you hallucinate that? We love dictators with oil, hate peasants with oil. Kill commies, support business. Easy, ain't it?
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @05:57PM
KEYSTONE XL
KEYSTONE XL
KEYSTONE XL
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @08:39PM
^THIS! I was at the pump the other day and was pleased to see it at $4.03/gal. I was just about to start the pump when this limo screeches to a halt, AND BIDEN JUMPED OUT! He was waiving his finger at me "Hold on there buddy", he comes over to my pump, pushes a bunch of buttons on the keypad, and jumped back in the limo and left. I was completely bewildered. It happened so fast I couldn't even catch a selfie of it. Anyway, when I go to start the pump, THE GAS PUMP WAS NOW SET TO $5.00/GAL!!!! I'm really flabbergasted now, looking around with a WTF look on my face, then I see him across the street. The limo window rolled down and he's got this huge grin on his face and he points his finger at me and smiles and winks. And I'm all like "Awwwwwwwww man, you got me!" And I pointed my finger back at him and smiled and winked.
Sneaky Biden and his ability to set global gasoline prices!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @10:08PM
Imagine thinking Biden sets the gas prices.
(Score: 4, Informative) by number11 on Wednesday March 16 2022, @10:58PM (6 children)
It isn't Biden that jacks the prices up, it's greedy speculators and the US oil companies.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 17 2022, @03:02AM (4 children)
(Score: 2) by number11 on Thursday March 17 2022, @11:15PM (3 children)
"Uncertainty" does not jack up prices, speculators taking advantage of it are the ones that jack up prices.
In the US, there is no "reduced availability", the US (the world's largest oil producer) produces more oil than it uses. The prices get jacked up because the oil companies can get away with it (as well as the speculators), because they can sell it for more in another part of the world. Yeah, I know that's how capitalism works, instead of bitching about high gasoline prices, people should be proudly pointing to them as proof of how good capitalism is for everyone.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 17 2022, @11:23PM (2 children)
Of course, it does. Supply chains increase the cushion of oil-related goods they store, for example. Businesses that need steady delivery of oil products, will increase the number/amount of future contracts, engaging with more expensive, but more reliable suppliers. You don't want your business to just halt because spot suppliers ran out.
So what?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 18 2022, @04:42PM (1 child)
So, you are just fine with price gouging? Why am I not surprised?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 18 2022, @10:11PM
Of course, I am. That's the market signal to produce more oil and conserve what you're using. But sure, let's force the price of oil to stay low so that there's no incentive to produce more or use less oil. What could possibly go wrong with that?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by bussdriver on Thursday March 17 2022, @03:53AM
Oil production hasn't been ramped up as the economy started to come online again because some "murder prince" wants a Biden pardon and isn't even responding to Biden's calls. Also, during the Russian Oil price war (due to lack of demand and previous production levels during a pandemic) an "Orange man" reportedly threatened "murder prince" to stop warring with King dum "put-Un" so oil profits get driven up (which began like 2 years ago.)
Also, doesn't anybody remember all the global warming news and how prices were going to end up higher on foods?
Oh, the USA's unofficial war in Yemen likely has to get bigger to further please the "murder prince." Meanwhile tons of Venezuelan Oil remains locked up because "Orange Man" said so when they didn't do hardly any shit to deserve it.
Yet it's all Bidens fault... a man who can't even hire staff because the number of Jan 6 traitors still in power who'd rather burn it all down than let the nation succeed while under control of the opposition. The partisanship is so extreme and unequal it's amazing people are so ignorant as to fall for the false equivalence of the corporate media... but then they think that media is liberal already.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:06PM
You don't have to pay that if you run out and buy an electric car. Sure, it won't be ready for another year or so once they work through the backlog of orders, but you can ride a bike in the meantime.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Friday March 18 2022, @12:44AM
Who is "making" you pay $5 per gallon? There is always alternate transportation. Maybe you should look at the vehicle you drive. If you're in one of those 15-20 mpg pickups that stomps on the gas when the light turns green, races up to the next light where you slam on the breaks, I hope your gas goes up to $8 per gallon. If you keep voting for politicians that relax fuel economy standards, you deserve to pay $8 per gallon. By now the average passenger vehicle fuel economy should be around 50 mpg. For mostly political reasons, it is nowhere near that.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bradley13 on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:02PM (23 children)
Russia is destroying itself with this war.
I read one blogger who said that China would like nothing more than to have Russia fragment, so that China could take over large chunks of territory, gaining access to new resources. At the time, I thought they were crazy. Watching the shocking incompetence of the Russian military, and considering the number of fronts where they have to maintain a military presence? Well, maybe it's not so crazy after all.
In the end, Russia has a population of less than 150 million, and much of that population is fundamentally disloyal to the government. They claim to have a huge military, but apparently they cannot manage basic logistics, their equipment is unreliable, and their soldiers even more so. If Moscow didn't control nuclear weapons, we would all be laughing at them.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:09PM (3 children)
On the stats front - GDP is about the same as Germany. Manufacturing base (i.e. capability to roll out tanks) however is considerably larger.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Kunasou on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:21PM (2 children)
Russia's GDP (1 647 billion $, 2020) is about the same as Brazil (1 645 billion $). Germany's GDP is 4 230 billion $, way double than that [1]. Russia's military is way bigger than Germany but mostly with older material.
As their manufacturing base... Pumping new tanks is not easy task for the Russian Army. By 2020 they expected to produce 2200 "T-14 Armata" tanks (next generation) but so far, only 100 have been delivered. In this war, they've been relying in former USSR material and T-90s (and quite few of them are made in India, under license).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday March 16 2022, @03:11PM
Thanks. I was going by memory. Sorry for getting it wrong.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:08AM
For another point of reference, NY State (home of New York City) has a larger GNP than Russia. See https://gothamist.com/news/hochul-announces-new-york-will-not-do-business-russia [gothamist.com] for a statement by our new Governor Hochul -- I checked a couple of sites and it seems to check out. And NY State is not the largest USA state economy (I think it's 3rd or 4th). Russia just isn't that big of a deal economically at this point in time.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:19PM (5 children)
Putin is destroying Russia with this war.
Even after war's end, nobody will trust Russia for a very long time. Nobody will lend them money. Lease them aircraft or other expensive assets. Everyone now knows what a Russian promise is worth.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @06:07PM (2 children)
And nobody will shed a tear when China 'liberates' Siberia and puts the native population in camps so the land can be populated with 'good (Han) Chinese'..
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:11PM (1 child)
Yeah, that's right. Can you imagine the scene if Beijing passed its own version of the Homesteading Act to settle Siberia? It would be the largest, fastest migration in human history. The Siberian tiger would instantly become extinct as the Han killed them to put their bones into traditional impotency medicines (as would every other species on hoof or wing there, for much the same reason).
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 18 2022, @04:49PM
You're just a horrible person all around.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by number11 on Wednesday March 16 2022, @11:04PM (1 child)
I dunno. Memory is short, greed is long. Unless you consider 5 or 10 years "a very long time".
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday March 17 2022, @02:08PM
A banker or investor will know that if they lease an expensive item (say aircraft) to a Russian company, that Russia can just nationalize it. Because.
Russian promises not to invade Ukraine? We now know what those are worth.
Investors will realize that Russia may decide to repay a debt using worthless Rubles instead of real currency.
In this case Greed tilts in favor of NOT trusting Russia. Maybe at some point someone driven by greed decides to take the risk and possibly get burned badly. Nobody wants to be the one that made such a bad decision in light of what has recently happened.
Russia may default on its debt very soon now.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:25PM (5 children)
That's probably one of the main things that China keeps in mind when considering what to do regarding Russia.
1) Don't want Putin/Russia backed into some corner where they suddenly decide to just launch nukes
2) Don't want to be one of the top targets if they do launch nukes.
I'm not convinced China would want Russia to fragment. Fragment = refugees and potentially more crazy people controlling nukes.
Currently Russia not being able to sell its stuff to "anyone but China" and so China gets good deals is probably good enough for China. They have enough separatist and insurgent problems in their own country, why would they want to take on more? For oil?
Is there really that much Russian oil and gas in territories close to China? https://carnegieendowment.org/publications/interactive/russia-oil-map/ [carnegieendowment.org]
https://www.britannica.com/science/natural-gas/Location-of-major-gas-fields [britannica.com]
Doesn't look enough for all the trouble compared to a scenario where a weakened but still united Russia is forced to sell gas and oil cheaper to China.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @06:21PM (4 children)
Russia fragmenting gives China an excuse to annex Siberia. They already have illegal settlements they can justify an invasion to 'protect', just like Russia was 'protecting' Russian-speaking people in Crimea.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Wednesday March 16 2022, @09:45PM (3 children)
Not going to happen, of course, since Xi seems rather more shrewd and practical than Putin has been recently, but I think it will be interesting to see what impact this military debacle and the lasting economic damage that is resulting from it might have on how belligerant China is towards Taiwan over the next few years.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:16PM (2 children)
I rather think the cost-benefit analysis rather favors Chinese moves against Siberia rather than against Taiwan. Moving against Siberia would upset Moscow, but really no one else. Moving against Taiwan would mean war with the US, South Korea, Japan, ASEAN, and the entire rest of the world, less Russia, Syria, Iran, Cuba, and North Korea. And China would definitely lose that fight. Big time.
Against Russia, on the other hand, they could probably prevail quickly, lose not that much, and gain huge.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Thursday March 17 2022, @02:09PM (1 child)
Apart from that one thing. Russia still has a sizeable nuclear arsenal that is already on standby, as well as other WMD, and with their backs to the wall as a result of sanctions, no allies of note that they can turn to for aid or assistance that would want to risk relations with China, and especially if Putin and his cronies are still clinging to power, they might just panic and hit the button because they're quite likely going to be dead either way. That's perhaps a risk vs. reward calculation that Xi isn't going to like the outcome of, so I'd expect any incursions over the border to be extremely tenative to gauge the response rather than a "Shock and Awe" style mass invasion, and maybe just aim to seize some key areas known to be rich in resources.
If Putin's regime has just been toppled though, with all the likely domestic turmoil in Russia that's almost certainly going to come out of the power vaccuum that results, then I think Xi might be more likely to roll the dice. The western world and NATO won't want to go into a shooting match with China over Russia even less than they do with Russia over Ukraine, and what goes around, comes around, right? As long as China doesn't use any WMD, they can probably annexe a good deal of Siberia while the West just sits back, condemns them in the UN, and tries to get on with rebuilding Ukraine and expanding NATO and the EU within Europe. And if Russia's new leaders, or a rogue general, decide to use any WMDs first, then even that limited level of protest will likely evaporate as well.
What ever the final outcome when the dust settles, I think we're going to have re-drawn quite a few borders and re-written the membership list of a number of major geopolitical alliances. Putin's legacy is going to quite profound and long-lasting, I suspect, but almost certainly not in the way he would ever have wanted.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @09:34PM
That's the moment at which the West ought to go after China. Beijing would like to quietly absorb Siberia, but if the West comes knocking they'd be caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday March 16 2022, @03:11PM (4 children)
I wonder if Russia wouldn't be happier, overall, dumping Siberia and the eastern territories and gaining more fertile farmland and frontage on the Black Sea...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @06:19PM (3 children)
Siberia is where most of Russia's mineral an oil wealth is. Losing that would bankrupt them. That's why China wants it.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday March 16 2022, @07:53PM (2 children)
Wealth != happiness.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @10:18PM
No, but wealth sure does pay the bills (as Putin is now discovering, what with the soon-to-be default they are about to experience).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @08:17PM
Does for khallow! Or at least he thinks so, since he has none, and keeps trying to suck up to richies!
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday March 16 2022, @05:37PM
The US tried hard to self-destruct in Vietnam, but I guess we were "too big to fail," back then. At least relative to the competition.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 16 2022, @07:07PM
This invasion reminds me a bit of Russia circa WW1, when it turned out that their military basically couldn't function in a war.
Then the revolution happened.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 5, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:11PM (36 children)
We should all be afraid! Very afraid! Russia can do sanctions too!
There are plenty of news sources on this, but here is Just one. [cbsnews.com]
Russia hits Biden, Blinken and other top U.S. officials with sanctions
What? Hillary Clinton who isn't in power any longer? Hillary's eight years of running the country was more than a decade ago. Oh, but no sanctions against Trump, of course. Since Trump is still president and in power (according to some Republicans, yes, really, no sarcasm), why wouldn't Russia sanction Trump? Just one more mystery of the universe.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:25PM (18 children)
Flamebait? SN is dying.
The final paragraph is opinion. All of the rest is a simple FACT. (Something Republican's hate.)
Here are other sources for the FACT of those sanctions from Russia against US officials, and which officials.
Washington Pest:
Russia’s sanctions on Biden, Hillary Clinton and others mocked by White House [washingtonpost.com]
That bastion of misinformation BBC:
Russia sanctions Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton and others [bbc.com]
NPR:
Russia says it's sanctioning Biden, Hillary Clinton and top U.S. officials [npr.org]
Aljazeera:
Russia announces sanctions on Biden and several top US officials [aljazeera.com]
Fox News:
Russia announces sanctions against Biden and top US officials [foxnews.com]
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:29PM (1 child)
One more observation:
Even that final paragraph.
Hillary Clinton not being sanctioned? FACT
Hillary Clinton no longer being in power? FACT
No sanctions against Trump? FACT
Trump is still president according to some Republicans? FACT
Opinions:
"why wouldn't Russia sanction Trump? Just one more mystery of the universe."
" Hillary's eight years of running the country was more than a decade ago. " -- of course, some would say this is true.
Another FACT: Republicans HATE facts! Merely stating facts without opinions is quite damning.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @05:01PM
Trump/Republicans have been cut off from Russian funds. Why would they need to sanction them?
(Score: 2, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @04:10PM (15 children)
SN died a long time ago when staff decided to defend the alt-right while giving the community no real method of policing content that wasn't ripe for abuse. Can't forget the lies about privacy and the various accusations of wrong doing, and the 3 month database purge.
Soylent News is sadly a failed system that lies about privacy while staff apply rules in a biased manner. It is down to probably a few dozen users and the reputation so tarnished that admitting to visiting this site pins a big red flag on your back. Sad really, originally I thought facts would be paramount here, but the alt-right seems to be literally crazy and is now abusing the spam mod like crazy because allowing racism to be spam modded was TOO FAR in their minds.
(Score: 4, Informative) by janrinok on Wednesday March 16 2022, @07:34PM (12 children)
Yet you are still here and posting regularly.
We also defend the left wing and those in the middle, those with usernames and those who post as AC, those who join in the discussions and those who just want to complain about the site/their lives/world. Everybody has the right to freedom of speech or nobody has it. You cannot silence one group without silencing all the others.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @07:59PM (9 children)
Funny you would say this.
aristarchus
(Score: 5, Interesting) by janrinok on Wednesday March 16 2022, @08:37PM (8 children)
You were banned for doxxing - you were always permitted to use your journal to express your opinions. And even now if you want to contribute intelligently to a conversation then we haven't stopped you. We will stop you from spamming discussions though.
Funny you would bring this up.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @09:12PM (1 child)
Doxxing is shitty behavior and ari should stop, however it is not necessarily illegal and SN does not cover that in the code of conduct. Runaway has frequently invited challenges and said he is not afraid of anyone coming to his house. Yet now he is so scared he needs ari banned? Hasn't stopped the info from being posted, so what good does any if that do? How about bannimg runaway for his death threats against liberals? Or his likely abuse of the spam mod? At least a mod ban on people spam modding comments they simply find annoying? How quickly SN went from TOTAL FREE SPEECH to WHATEVER STAFF ALLOWS! Pretty sad. Also update your privacy policy already to reflect that IPs are stored forever and the hash is an annoyance easily bypassed to get the original IP. I know you won't, but never hurts to give you another chance.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday March 17 2022, @03:27PM
#1 Doxxing should be illegal.
#2 It could very well fall under harassment and stalking. Both of which usually have laws against them.
#3 In the event that something untoward were to happen to the victim of said doxxing. The perpetrator could be held liable on conspiracy. Just, because "on a computer" doesn't mean, some areas of the law couldn't cover said issue.
#4 Case in point: All of the "SWATted" incidents. You hear about them, because someone died and some idiot is now going to prison. At the very least, the person who called in the SWAT. If not, anyone else who aided in providing information on the victim.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @09:16PM (5 children)
If it is really me. Your Ari-dar is getting worse, old man! And who was it that was doxxed? What is their meatspace location? Reallife name? Rank on the Red Flag list? Seems no information was actually released.
Yours,
Not really aristarchus
(Score: 3, Interesting) by janrinok on Thursday March 17 2022, @06:39AM (4 children)
Ari disclosed a real name, a home location, place of work, a place of worship, alleged vehicle details, alleged financial status, alleged details of a criminal record and other information.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @08:25PM (3 children)
Oh, really? I missed much of that! Alleged, you say, so not actual? How is this real name? Place of worship sounds quite implausible. And the victim actually does have a criminal record, only the details are alleged?
Hmm, sounds like the whole thing might have been fabricated in order to ban a user for "alleged" violation of what were not at the time "rules". Time to put out the details, jan, or it is not really doxxing! Merely alleged attempted doxxing!
(Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Friday March 18 2022, @07:18AM (2 children)
"Alleged" as in we are not confirming the accuracy of the information. We have saved the database records containing the compromises. There is no doubt that the compromises have occurred and the evidence is available for any subsequent legal action should it be required. We are not going to publish the details although they are available online if one knows where to search for them.
Why does this seem implausible to you? It is used by members of his family who potentially have also been affected by aristarchus' actions.
Doxxing does not have to be covered by any rules. There is no reasonable explanation for publishing the information other than those we have already given in our earlier announcements. The site is entitled to decide who it accepts as members of its community and who it does not.The permanent ban stands.
This discussion is off topic and is now closed. If you wish to make further objections please contact us via admin@[soylentnews dot org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 18 2022, @05:39PM (1 child)
Well no one can force you to address the various abuses and lies this site is built on. The more you take the dictator approach the more users will see that SN is not worth investing in. The least you can do is update the moderation guidelines and privacy policy to reflect reality. I see why you won't make the spam report page public, can't have users seeing how badly it is abused!
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday March 18 2022, @06:21PM
So you will finally be leaving us then?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @09:03PM
As usual you sidestep the violations of privacy you and other staff have engaged in. Previous abuse and technical failures hand waved away, continued abuse of spam mods, and ways the "we won't silence anyone just because you want" which no one except maybe ari has said regarding runaway. I still comment to point out the lies from alt-right and libertarian users, and to inform everyone else that SN does not protect privacy and staff are incredibly biased. You could do somethings to improve the site, but that would require admitting mistakes and lies. Ari dug his own hole with doxxing, but since you don't allow spam modding other user's bullshit and only ari's complaints you show your bias yet again. Keep trying buddy, you must be losing some mental acuity if you honestly believe your statements.
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @05:22AM
Two! (2) Runaway +1 Informative mods for janrinok's blatant lies. Oh, what perilous times are these, when random internet ruffians can ban ancient Greek philosophers, but still post from the GatewayPundit and Epoch Times! SoylentNews has silenced aristarchus, and now only the rabid right has a voice here, as evident with recent moderations.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @08:45PM (1 child)
Damn it DannyB! You had to go and use some of those trigger words, didn't you?
Either that, or you looked in the mirror and said his name three times or something.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday March 17 2022, @02:16PM
What trigger words are you talking about? I wasn't aware of using any trigger words. Just noting facts about Russia sanctions and an amusing opinion / observation after pointing out the facts.
Question: what is a RWNJ's favorite four letter word?
Answer: TRUMP
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @02:49PM (1 child)
I think the flamebait mods are actually proving your point, so don't worry :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2022, @06:06PM
Indeed. These days I wear the Flamebait (or Troll) mod like a badge of honor.
(Score: 4, Touché) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday March 16 2022, @03:13PM (10 children)
I sanction you, I sanction you, I sanction YOU!
Said it three times in public forum, so by the laws of MY land you are no longer entitled to hold any property or transact business here. Your assets are hereby nationalized.
So there!
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 16 2022, @07:03PM (9 children)
Yeah but is it the good or bad definition of sanction? ;)
Whoever thought this was a good idea for English should be slapped.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday March 16 2022, @07:31PM (2 children)
I'd guess by what I said, it's pretty clear it's the bad one, but... there are two too many meanings for to, also.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 16 2022, @08:39PM (1 child)
At least two/too/to are homonyms, so they're unambiguous if people know how to spell.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:22PM
One too many syllables. And, it's written "tutu."
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Wednesday March 16 2022, @10:36PM (5 children)
Sick burn.
(Where "Sick" means good, and "Burn" means to act coldly towards).
Yes, English is a trash language.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2022, @03:58AM (3 children)
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Thursday March 17 2022, @04:24AM (2 children)
So many things:
I could be here all day!
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:36PM
Well, Mykl, as an obvious native of Qwghlm [fandom.com], you cannot claim to be a stranger to linguistic or lexicograhical oddities...
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday March 17 2022, @02:20PM
Regardless or Irregardless of whether gasoline is flammable or inflammable, it burns.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:24PM
I thought "sick burn" was for the feeling after you've hurled from drinking too much Jaeger.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @01:20PM (3 children)
Sanctioning Hillary Clinton makes sense. She doesn't hold any official office, but the Clintons still control the DNC. That gives them a ton of behind-the-scenes power. There are also rumors that she might run for the Whitehouse again. Take those for what they're worth, but the fact they exist reflects the influence the Clintons actually have on the Democrats (and the permanent DC power structure).
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday March 17 2022, @02:23PM (2 children)
I could be wrong and you could be right, but I suspect that Hillary will not run again for president.
But stranger things have happened.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday March 17 2022, @09:27PM (1 child)
The Clintons make their money on influence peddling. If Hillary remains a viable candidate for President the money flows exponentially better for them. Without it, it reduces to a trickle.
They have tried to groom Chelsea Clinton for office, but she is awful at it. She lacks the charisma of her father and the calculating political mind of her mother. The mother and father are very much a team, though; neither thrives without the other and that's why they stayed together after all of Bill's affairs. Once either dies the wheels will come off the wagon.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 18 2022, @05:37PM
So they are politicians. Boggles the mind how you conservatives are so triggered by the Clintons. There are many worse politicians out there, but Fox is still using the Hillary scare tactic, just sad.