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posted by janrinok on Thursday March 31 2022, @12:32PM   Printer-friendly

Finland's Spy Service Warns of Russian Interference, Attacks:

Finland must brace for Russian interference and hybrid attacks as it weighs whether to join the NATO military alliance, the security services warned on Tuesday.

The Nordic nation shares a 1,340-kilometre (830-mile) border with Russia and has remained militarily non-aligned since the end of World War II to avoid provoking its eastern neighbour.

[...] "The whole of Finnish society must be vigilant towards Russian attempts to influence Finnish decision-making regarding the NATO question," Antti Pelttari, head of the Finnish security services Supo, said.

Releasing its updated terrorism threat report, Supo on Tuesday highlighted the danger of "widespread Russian interference and illegal surveillance," but kept the national terror threat at level two, or "elevated", on a scale of four.

[...] Finland has previously been subject to so-called hybrid tactics from Moscow, such as repeated airspace incursions, or the release in 2016 of 1,700 migrants across the Finnish border.

Earlier this month the transport authority Traficom said it had received "numerous" reports from aircraft of GPS interference in eastern Finland, but was unable to identify the source of the interference.


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  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @12:51PM (8 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @12:51PM (#1233712)

    NATO, that promoter of peace...

    P.S. f*ck the Russia invasion (yes, you can criticize NATO and be against the invasion)

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by khallow on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:38PM (7 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:38PM (#1233737) Journal
      I don't know why you're trying to be sarcastic, but yes, promoters of peace is pretty accurate. Try this simple exercise, look up how many wars NATO has fought (clue: nothing since the civil war in former Yugoslavia) versus how many Russia has fought in.

      And the bear in this room is that NATO probably prevented more wars by Russia/USSR, than wars NATO was ever in. This is the pathology of ignoring NATO's history.
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:04PM (6 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:04PM (#1233766) Journal

        (clue: nothing since the civil war in former Yugoslavia)

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations [wikipedia.org]

        Serbia
        Bosnia
        Adriatic blockade
        Yugoslavia
        Kosovo and Serbia
        Albania
        Afghanistan
        Turkey
        Red sea, Gulf of Aden, Indian Ocean, Somalia and Yemen
        Libya

        That doesn't take into account that the US, a primary member of NATO, has it's own little wars ongoing around the world. You might make a case that the majority of NATO aren't aggressors, but they will mostly tag along with the US when pressured to do so.

        --
        ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
        • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:30PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:30PM (#1233776)

          More and more komrade you are turnink to dark side da?

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:33PM (4 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:33PM (#1233777) Journal
          You just proved my point. Only one set of those operations was involvement in a war, the civil war in former Yugoslavia. And of course, your admission that the US and other NATO members don't involve NATO in their personal wars.
          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @06:28PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @06:28PM (#1233793)

            The US invoked NATO article 5 for Afghanistan and Iraq, and that's why they got so pissy about the French calling Nazi States of America out on the bullshit reason for Iraq. But you are a known Heil America propagandaist, Khallow, so noone expects anything better from you, just like we don't expect anything better from Putinjugends.

            • (Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Thursday March 31 2022, @06:54PM (2 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @06:54PM (#1233795) Journal

              Are you sure? I don't recall article 5 being invoked for Iraq.

              https://www.history.com/news/nato-article-5-meaning-history-world-war-2 [history.com]

              https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm [nato.int]

              Article 5 is the cornerstone of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and states that an attack on one member of NATO is an attack on all of its members. Despite its importance, NATO has only invoked Article 5 once in its history—in response to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

              And it wasn't invoked for Afghanistan - it was for the attack on the USA. It turned out subsequently that Afghanistan is where the terrorists were. Afghanistan as a country was never a threat to NATO.

              You can continue your insults of other community members when you can get your facts right.

              --
              I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
              • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @08:38PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @08:38PM (#1233816)

                You can continue your insults of other community members when you can get your facts right.

                Strange, coming from an editor that banned aristarchus on the basis of lies and rumors. Jus' saying . . .

                • (Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Thursday March 31 2022, @10:42PM

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @10:42PM (#1233857) Journal

                  The ban for doxxing was not "on the basis of lies and rumors". Many other people saw the evidence - and some of it is still there to be seen if you know where to look. Jus' sayin...

                  And no I am not going to show you where - because then we would be guilty of exactly the same thing. If you had a ounce of intelligence you would see that. Furthermore, he wasn't banned by a single editor, but by 6 members of the staff and in consultation with a member of the board. Why don't you read the ban for yourself and look who issued it.

                  --
                  I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
  • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @01:08PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @01:08PM (#1233713)

    SURPRISE!!! Who would have thought? I for one had to take a shit when I read this!!!!!

  • (Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @01:24PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @01:24PM (#1233717)

    The question is, will history repeat itself?

    Anyway, more military needed and thus more OIL!
    Fuck Climate and the Environment.

  • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @02:38PM (46 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @02:38PM (#1233730)

    There is an old saying: "don't poke the bear". In this case it's the Russian Bear.

    What does Finland gain from joining NATO? What does it risk from joining NATO? Those are the two big questions. And, frankly, they are better off not joining NATO.

    Russia will leave Finland alone if Finland stays neutral. They don't need what Finland has. Coastline/ports? Russia has those in the area. NatGas/resources? Russia has those too. If Finland doesn't poke the bear, they will have no problem with Russia because Russia won't care about them - they have other, much bigger issues, to concentrate on.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:21PM (44 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:21PM (#1233734) Journal

      Russia will leave Finland alone if Finland stays neutral.

      Just like they left Ukraine alone? Russia will find a way to be poked, if they want to invade Finland. Maybe it'll even be the same excuses: Finland is taken over by neo-nazis because Russia says so.

      At least NATO membership (and access to those military resources) will strongly discourage the bear from getting itself poked.

      I find it remarkable how people still take Russia propaganda at face value after the naked display of aggression and blatant dishonesty going into the Ukrainian invasion.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:38PM (40 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:38PM (#1233738) Journal

        Can't speak for AC above, but I don't know of anyone who takes Russian propaganda at face value.

        I think that I can name some people who take US/NATO/EU/UK propaganda at face value though. Khallow, for instance, who insists that in the past ~20 years, Ukraine has been entirely innocent, and has done nothing whatsoever to provoke Russia.

        Finland, on the other hand, has actually remained neutral, and has done nothing to provoke that Russian bear.

        Trying to cut through all the propaganda from both sides, it's obvious that Russia has been weakened by the war in Ukraine. How much it has been weakened is very much open to debate, but they've lost some of their military power. The likelihood that Russia is considering another invasion is pretty damned low. Finland is a tough nut to crack, even if Russia were at full strength, with good morale.

        It's up to Finland to decide if they are going to end their neutrality, but I can't see that they'll gain much from it. Russia isn't invading them in any near future, or mid future scenario you might imagine. 150 years from now, who knows? NATO may no longer exist then, and the whole world may have been turned upside down. 150 years from now, it may be Finland that is invading Russia.

        --
        ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
        • (Score: 2, Disagree) by khallow on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:06PM (39 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:06PM (#1233750) Journal

          Khallow, for instance, who insists that in the past ~20 years, Ukraine has been entirely innocent, and has done nothing whatsoever to provoke Russia.

          Indeed. And I'm right too. Let's start with your dishonest use of language. "Provoke" is a very nebulous word. For example, my president saying something rude about Putin is a provocation. So is my president nuking Moscow. We wouldn't expect war in the first case, but we would expect a serious nuclear war in the second.

          And that's where the provoke narrative breaks down. No one came up with a serious reason for war. And that's why the warmongering NATO narrative isn't working either. Every neighbor sees that Russia won't have any trouble manufacturing a pretext for invasion because Russia just did it with Ukraine.

          The only thing that can stop that is military containment. And NATO is the only game in town for that.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:20PM (38 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:20PM (#1233754) Journal

            Tell us about the North Crimea canal.

            --
            ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:21PM (37 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:21PM (#1233755) Journal
              What about it?
              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:53PM (36 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:53PM (#1233764) Journal

                I take that to mean that you are simply ignorant? Or you're refusing to answer? That canal is a crucial part of the the Russian war effort.

                --
                ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:28PM (2 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:28PM (#1233775) Journal
                  Again what about it? I was asking about those alleged provocations not Russian strategic valuations.
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @08:40PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @08:40PM (#1233817)

                    Amazing! All the Russian shills saying "whatabout" in one place! Fascinating!

                • (Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Thursday March 31 2022, @07:02PM (32 children)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @07:02PM (#1233798) Journal

                  You seem to be overlooking 2014? The Crimea ISN'T Russian by right despite anything that they may claim.

                  Suggesting that they now had to got to war to maintain the water supplies to Crimea which isn't theirs anyway is a bit rich. If there isn't enough water for them they could have always given it back and gone home again.

                  --
                  I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 31 2022, @09:49PM (31 children)

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @09:49PM (#1233839) Journal

                    That is one point of view. Another point of view might be that Kruschev never had any right to just give away Crimea. Or, if he were going to give it away, maybe he should have given it to the people it was taken from. An alternative and related point of view is, Russia (or the USSR) built the Crimean peninsula and the military bases. All agreements recognized the fact that the bases are critical to Russian security. Then, Ukraine starts talking about joining the EU and NATO. Right or wrong, Russia decided that Ukraine is NOT going to take their military bases to NATO.

                    As for the canal, specifically, the UN has said that it is illegal to cut off the water supply. Restricting the water supply might be legal, depending on how the decision is made, but cutting off the water supply was illegal.

                    I'm surprised that you don't (or won't) see that there are more than one side to the story. I don't expect you to take Russia's side, but you should see that they have a side.

                    --
                    ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday March 31 2022, @10:35PM (7 children)

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @10:35PM (#1233853) Journal

                      I don't consider that they have a 'side' that justifies the war that they are currently waging on innocent civilians. Why flatten Mariupol if they want the port for themselves? It is simply terrorizing the population in the hope that they convince their government to surrender. It is also covered by numerous UN laws but of course you know that.

                      --
                      I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 31 2022, @11:15PM (6 children)

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @11:15PM (#1233864) Journal

                        It has long been known that Russia will destroy what they can't take. They would be happy to take all of Ukraine. If they can't take it, they'll be happy to see Ukraine neutral. If they can't see Ukraine neutral, they'll be almost as happy to just destroy Ukraine. It all goes toward denying the use of Ukraine assets by NATO.

                        I'm a bit curious whether any Ukraine cities hosted US/UK/NATO naval ships in recent years. If Mariupol, for example, allowed a US Navy ship to dock for a few nights of liberty, that would create a lot of resentment in Russia. Or, to a lesser degree, allowing US flagged ships into port for commercial purposes. Remember that the USSR put all kinds of ships into foreign ports for nefarious purposes, from trawlers, to cruise ships, to all other sorts of vessels.

                        Again, though, Russia has been banging on the theme of preventing NATO camping on Russian borders since before the coup. And, we just ignore their complaints, warnings, and threats. We can't pretend that the invasion just came out of the blue. That isn't to say that the invasion is either right or wrong, but it is saying that we've been warned.

                        --
                        ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @01:14AM (5 children)

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @01:14AM (#1233895) Journal

                          It has long been known that Russia will destroy what they can't take.

                          No need to go any further. That's why NATO has made so much headway and why Ukraine isn't going to give Russia anything it doesn't have to. Because Russia will destroy what it can't take - unless you keep it from doing that.

                          If Mariupol, for example, allowed a US Navy ship to dock for a few nights of liberty, that would create a lot of resentment in Russia.

                          So what? At some point, you just have to realize that Putin can generate a lot of resentment trivially. He's got a great propaganda machine. There's no point to tiptoeing around the bear.

                          Again, though, Russia has been banging on the theme of preventing NATO camping on Russian borders since before the coup. And, we just ignore their complaints, warnings, and threats.

                          So what? Perhaps we should step that up to color revolutions [wikipedia.org] in Russia? Certainly would be a good time for it.

                          We can't pretend that the invasion just came out of the blue.

                          Again, where's the evidence that NATO's expansion made the invasion more likely? I say instead that it made it less likely. 2014 probably would have been a whole lot more bloody, if Putin didn't have to worry about NATO. And funny how Putin waited till the US's ignominious defeat in Afghanistan before acting.

                          So needless to say, I'm not buying the NATO narrative as the reason for the invasion.

                          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 01 2022, @01:17AM (4 children)

                            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @01:17AM (#1233897) Journal

                            I say instead that it made it less likely.

                            Uh-huh. Look around, and smell the coffee.

                            --
                            ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday April 01 2022, @06:50AM

                              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @06:50AM (#1233956) Journal

                              That it happened does not support your premise that it was NATO that made it more likely. Putin himself has said that he wants to restore the extent of Russia's control and influence to cold war days despite those former Soviet Union countries having chosen a different future. They weren't forced to join NATO - they simply chose the path of democracy rather than be subjugated again.

                              --
                              I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
                            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @11:10AM (2 children)

                              by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @11:10AM (#1233992)

                              Runaway - I'd like to hear some logical arguments from you instead silly attempts at logic based on clearly incomplete knowledge of history.

                              I have lived in Finland, and have talked to enough people who have either fought in the Winter and Continuation wars and/or lived through Finlandization.
                              Your comments convince me beyond any semblace of a doubt that you have never spoken to anyone who fought in either of those wars nor anyone who lived through Finlandization.

                              Here's what happened, the simple enough for even Runaway to follow.

                              1: USSR decided the Finnish border was to close to st. Peterburg for their liking.
                              2: USSR tried offering Finland some land near Myrmansk in trade for territory much more valuable in the south. Like any independant country with a Spine Finland said Hell no, we will not trade valualble territory for useless territory that can't grow anythhing but forest, en not much of even that.
                              3: USSR attacked Finland, and just like in Ukraine, they proved USSR military was unable to deal with Finnish military on equal footing. Just look at the casualties.
                              4: Russia started targeting Finnish civilians, murdered them indiscriminatel to try and pressure the Finnish government to surrender as military they were failing. Approx 10 Russian military deaths for each Finnish soldier killed.

                              Now we go to present day Finland.
                              Since the end of Finlandization most Finns were convinced, like you, that you can avoid major issues if you slavishly obey the foreign policy from Moscow.
                              Since Russia proved that they do not stick to the deals they make, like their agreement, signed by PUTIN HIMSELF when Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons that Russia would never invade Ukraine ... Russia invaded and now both Finland an Sweden will be joining NATO ASAP. This is because PUTINS RUSSIA breaks every deal they make, and NATO does not fight along with non member states if invaded, only provide weapons.
                              So Finland and other non-NATO countries bordering Russia see their fears confirmed, and are 1000% sure they cannot trust Putins Russia not to invade even if they signed a contract. They all want Nato to fight with them, not just provide weapons.
                              The inevitable result will be a Russian Nato border from Norway, via Finland down to the Black sea, probably with Ukraine included.

                              I would very much appreciate you educating yourself about an issue before you spout FUD on the matter.

                              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 01 2022, @02:19PM (1 child)

                                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @02:19PM (#1234027) Journal

                                You are correct, I've never talked to any soldiers or former soldiers from Finland who kicked Russian ass. Somehow, my travels never took be to your part of the world. The nearest I ever got to Finland, was Copenhagen (or Kobenhavn) for a couple days of liberty.

                                Your points are maybe valid, but there are differences. How long has Finland been a neutral country? Compare that to Ukraine. If Ukraine had almost a century of dedication to neutrality, then Russia's attitude might be different, do you think?

                                Also, Finland doesn't hold possession of Russia's only warm water naval port, which would have been handed over for NATO use, right on Russia's door step. Drawing parallels between Finland and Ukraine only goes so far.

                                As for Finland joining NATO, if you're going to make that leap, you had best do it quickly. Dithering for years will invite Russia to step up it's interference. Make the decision within a couple months, send the diplomats to make it happen, and join within six months. A year is too long to dither over it. You can see how that worked in Ukraine.

                                It is also worth noting that we don't see a lot of Russian expansion. In Ukraine, we see Russia trying to keep what they consider theirs. Right or wrong, Russia sees Crimea as theirs. They took it back, and now they taken back the water supply that makes Crimea a viable base of operations. Go ahead, make the point again that Russia ceded Crimea - but you've not convinced the Russians. They've taken back Crimea, and the water supply that the Soviet built to supply Crimea. Denying them that control isn't up for debate. NATO isn't going to war over Ukraine, and Ukraine isn't going to take all of that back on their own.

                                I'll remind you that since the first man picked up the first stick and sharpened it, world affairs have not been determined by right and wrong. Being a Finn, and knowing your history, you know that might makes right. That's the way it always has been.

                                Again, if you're going to join NATO, do it quickly. Fortune favors the bold, and crushes the undecided.

                                --
                                ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @12:33AM (22 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @12:33AM (#1233883) Journal

                      Another point of view might be that Kruschev never had any right to just give away Crimea.

                      This point of view is just dumb. The USSR had 25 years to reverse that decision - after Khrushchev had been removed from power. Then they signed a treaty acknowledging those boundaries in the mid 1990s. 20 years later Putin annexes the Crimea after his puppet gets booted and there's blowback. If the Ukraine was still a Russian puppet, you can bet good money that there wouldn't be anyone contesting Ukrainian ownership of the Crimea.

                      As for the canal, specifically, the UN has said that it is illegal to cut off the water supply. Restricting the water supply might be legal, depending on how the decision is made, but cutting off the water supply was illegal.

                      I keep reading that the UN Monitoring Mission in the Ukraine has repeatedly said that it is Russia's responsibility to provide water for the Crimea - not Ukraine's, and that the Crimea has adequate water resources for the people living there.

                      This makes sense. Where in the laws of war is it the obligation of a defender to provide resources for an occupying army, especially when that army can do it themselves?

                      I'm surprised that you don't (or won't) see that there are more than one side to the story. I don't expect you to take Russia's side, but you should see that they have a side.

                      I see the points of view and the ever multiplying sides of the story alright. I just don't give them the time of day. This is just like the viewpoint of a criminal caught in the act. They generate all kinds of rationalizations, changing their story frequently, and such when they get in trouble. You quickly realize that sides of the story are irrelevant, even in the rare cases where they are genuine, because a lot of people have similar stories, but don't engage in similar harmful activities.

                      What really matters is consequences. That we can provide or choose not to. My take is that Russia's actions are so dire, that we need to provide as much negative consequences as we can, short of nuclear war. This is not the actions of a superpower addressing provocations, but the regrowing of an empire by conquest.

                      I suppose my view is that we have a golden opportunity to make the world an astoundingly wonderful place, for a century or more. But that depends on harm from a variety of sources being neutralized, managed, or contained. Russia threatens that future because it's a corrupt kleptocracy that's now trying to grow its way militarily out of the problems Russia caused for itself. Enough of that and I can shelve that future.

                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 01 2022, @01:15AM (11 children)

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @01:15AM (#1233896) Journal

                        I suppose my view is that we have a golden opportunity to make the world an astoundingly wonderful place, for a century or more.

                        Not while the US is electing presidents and congress critters who profit from the Military Industrial Complex. All wars are good, if you're making money from them.

                        --
                        ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @03:35AM (10 children)

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @03:35AM (#1233933) Journal
                          I think there's room for flawed countries in the future. But who can afford the "take or destroy" countries in the long run?
                          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 01 2022, @04:18AM (9 children)

                            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @04:18AM (#1233945) Journal

                            You're probably correct. The world can't afford us.

                            --
                            ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @12:52PM (8 children)

                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @12:52PM (#1234003) Journal
                              There's that whataboutism again. But since it's fine for Russia to invade its neighbor for all those weak reasons you listed in past few weeks, then I'm just not feeling your complaint about "us".
                              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 01 2022, @01:49PM (7 children)

                                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @01:49PM (#1234018) Journal

                                If you were a Columbian, you might understand my point.

                                --
                                ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                                • (Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @02:00PM (6 children)

                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @02:00PM (#1234020) Journal
                                  And if you were a Ukrainian, you might understand my point, right?
                                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 01 2022, @02:32PM (5 children)

                                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @02:32PM (#1234038) Journal

                                    Ahhh, but - I do understand Ukraine's point of view. It would do nobody any good for me to argue Ukraine's point of view here, would it? The membership is almost unanimous in understanding and arguing for Ukraine's point of view. I would rather spend my time trying to make some of you understand that the popular point of view is not the only one.

                                    So, Russia is an Indian-giver. Hmmmm - I'm thinking here. Where did that term come from? Probably has nothing to do with the fact that the US gave to the Indians again and again, and always took back everything they gave. It's almost like Russia and the US are kindred spirits, huh?

                                    --
                                    ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @03:34PM (4 children)

                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @03:34PM (#1234056) Journal
                                      And so do I understand your point of view as well as the rest. The problem is that many of those viewpoints are toxic and very divergent from reality. Presently, Russia is burning through its active troops at such a rate, that it'll run out of army somewhere around five years. Reality will break that viewpoint.

                                      So I don't respect the Putin viewpoint or expect it to stick around for long.

                                      And let's face it. This isn't about viewpoints, it's about making excuses long enough for Russia to get what it wants. This has been the playbook for Russia/USSR since the end of the Second World War.
                                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 01 2022, @06:06PM (3 children)

                                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @06:06PM (#1234095) Journal

                                        So I don't respect the Putin viewpoint or expect it to stick around for long.

                                        And, that's the reason for the invasion. No one respects Russia.

                                        --
                                        ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @07:16PM

                                          by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @07:16PM (#1234125)

                                          Why does no one respect Russia?

                                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @08:34PM

                                          by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @08:34PM (#1234141)

                                          Russia, we respect. Putin - not so much.

                                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @11:12PM

                                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @11:12PM (#1234228) Journal
                                          Maybe this reality impact will alter that viewpoint enough that they'll figure some other way to deal with lack of respect.
                      • (Score: 2) by legont on Friday April 01 2022, @02:44AM (9 children)

                        by legont (4179) on Friday April 01 2022, @02:44AM (#1233923)

                        Let's not forget that during referendum about being in the USSR Ukrainians rejected separation by 70-80% margin. The whole Ukraine is a separate country thing is illegal.

                        --
                        "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
                        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @03:29AM (6 children)

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @03:29AM (#1233931) Journal

                          that during referendum about being in the USSR Ukrainians rejected separation by 70-80% margin

                          So this was a referendum during the days of the USSR? Sounds like a waste of time to consider.

                          Also consider how much fight is in the Ukraine today, sounds like it's not a 70-80% margin any more, even if we were to optimistically assume that this alleged referendum reflected actual voter will.

                          The whole Ukraine is a separate country thing is illegal.

                          Russia signed a treaty acknowledging the sovereignty of Ukraine. So we're out of laws that would be relevant to your claim.

                          • (Score: 2) by legont on Saturday April 02 2022, @02:58AM (1 child)

                            by legont (4179) on Saturday April 02 2022, @02:58AM (#1234293)

                            So this was a referendum during the days of the USSR? Sounds like a waste of time to consider.

                            This referendum was run by Yeltsin. He "considered" it and dissolved the USSR anyway against the will of the People.

                            --
                            "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
                            • (Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Saturday April 02 2022, @03:22PM

                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday April 02 2022, @03:22PM (#1234357) Journal
                              Let's look at the wording [wikipedia.org]:

                              Do you consider necessary the preservation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedom of an individual of any ethnicity will be fully guaranteed?

                              The question might be missing something in translation, but the USSR never was this. Voters would have been voting on continuing/renewing a USSR that never existed in the first place! And given how much trouble Russia has had since with those rights and freedom of individuals, I think continuing the USSR would have been a dire mistake and contrary to the wish displayed in that referendum. Yeltsin made the right call.

                              After all, this displays a big problem of the USSR, the political dominance of Russia which had a firm majority of the population of the USSR (my bet is that this was by design back in the day to insure that the USSR couldn't be swayed by a non-Russian faction). It reminds me of the Wiemar Republic which had a similar instability in the Free State of Prussia (which IIRC had two thirds of the population of the Wiemar Republic). Failings of the single large state become failings of the entire country.

                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 03 2022, @02:38AM (3 children)

                            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 03 2022, @02:38AM (#1234494)

                            I hate to say it, but you are falling for a standard troll tactic. They provide a kernel of truth to obfuscate the lie. If you want to know what Ukraine thought about being part of the USSR, then you should really look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum [wikipedia.org] But that obviously paints a completely different picture of what the Ukrainian people wanted.

                            • (Score: 2) by legont on Sunday April 03 2022, @07:18PM (2 children)

                              by legont (4179) on Sunday April 03 2022, @07:18PM (#1234607)

                              This article is 100% fake. You can easily see it as there are no links to the official results of the vote.
                              This one does have such a link. Feel free to research it yourself

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum [wikipedia.org]

                              --
                              "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
                              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 04 2022, @02:58AM

                                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 04 2022, @02:58AM (#1234669) Journal
                                That's a different referendum.
                              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 04 2022, @05:23AM

                                by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 04 2022, @05:23AM (#1234686)

                                100% fake. LOL. The citations there are as official as any you'd find in your blessed wikipedia article.

                        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 01 2022, @04:29AM

                          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @04:29AM (#1233948) Journal

                          Times do change. One or more of my great . . . greats would have called it treason to rebel against the English crown. And, one or more of my great . . . greats would have also considered it treason to rebel against the French crown. Ditto the Austro-Hungarian empire. Need I go on? Today's reality can't be expected to conform to any of our forebear's wishes. And, there's no telling what our own descendants are going to do with the world 150 years from now.

                          --
                          ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday April 03 2022, @02:45PM

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 03 2022, @02:45PM (#1234577) Journal
                          legont, an AC [soylentnews.org] brought this to my attention:

                          A referendum on the Act of Declaration of Independence was held in Ukraine on 1 December 1991.[1] An overwhelming majority of 92.3% of voters approved the declaration of independence made by the Verkhovna Rada on 24 August 1991.

                          For those counting, it's less than 8% "rejecting" separation. An order of magnitude error is quite significant, wouldn't you say?

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:45PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:45PM (#1233741)

        khallow, the voice of reason.

        Ghastly fellow that Putin thug - meddling in Ukraine for decades: poisoning a Ukrainian presidential candidate, rigging mock independence referendums to annex Crimea and shooting down MH17.

        But #Trump2024 calls him a 'genius', go figure.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @01:01AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @01:01AM (#1233890)

        Just like they left Ukraine alone? Russia will find a way to be poked, if they want to invade Finland. Maybe it'll even be the same excuses: Finland is taken over by neo-nazis because Russia says so.

        The US got real peeved and upset at the idea that Russia interfered in the presidential election yet that is exactly what the US did in Ukraine, documentary by Oliver Stone https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html [rumble.com]

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @01:38AM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @01:38AM (#1233906) Journal

          The US got real peeved and upset at the idea that Russia interfered in the presidential election yet that is exactly what the US did in Ukraine

          I wasn't similarly upset. For example [soylentnews.org]:

          Russia doesn't agree that these charges are crimes. Hence, no extradition and no trial on those indictments much less convictions. In the past, the US didn't bother with such pointless legal maneuvers when Russia played its spy games. Probably because in large part, it'd create a legal precedent that'd blowback on the US. Further, why shouldn't Russia meddle in other countries' elections?

          Further, I don't care how hypocritical the US supposedly is - they aren't invading Ukraine. Funny how criticism of Russia's bloody actions morphs into flimsy criticism of US actions.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:43PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:43PM (#1233740)

      They haven't left us alone even when we were not even considering of joining Nato. Every fucking time there's some sort of threat coming from Putler's or some nutjob general's mouth. Why don't you get a fucking clue.
      I'd rather defend Finland from Russia with Nato than without. Cause Russia is out of control and that won't end any time soon. Putler's gone cookie, though that happened a long time ago. Lieing, hypocritical, paranoid piece of shit.

      You are either an ignorant fool or a Rusky bot, either way, fuck you. Nobody wants to take over Russia, you can keep your ruined land.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by pkrasimirov on Thursday March 31 2022, @02:47PM

    by pkrasimirov (3358) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @02:47PM (#1233731)

    Russian trolls are quick to respond, I see. NATO bad, Finland is asking for it, Russia can haz nukes, this topic is not a topic, but what about USA... lol. Comrades, your writings feel appalingly feeble. And it does not help that you are limited to text only here and cannot unleash memes for your psyops. Keep bashing and upvoting each other, it remains forever in the history who wrote what.

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:18PM (10 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:18PM (#1233733)

    If I was Chris Rock Finland, I'd be worried about getting bitch-slapped by Will Smith Russia too.

    --
    Use your words, people.

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:49PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:49PM (#1233742)

      Yep! I was pretty sure the Russian shills would down-mod parent post pretty quick. They do not disappoint. Use your words, people.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:50PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:50PM (#1233743)

      You would be, cause you still would be just a pussy Russian troll inside.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:54PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @03:54PM (#1233747)

      Is Russia a cuckold trapped in a failed marriage, geopolitically speaking?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:09PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:09PM (#1233751)

        Russian leadership is married to the notion that NATO is an existential threat. Any neighbor who disrespects that idea might deserve a bitch-slap.

        --
        Or maybe bears simply hate cages.

        • (Score: 1, Redundant) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:38PM (5 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:38PM (#1233760) Journal

          That is correct. And, Russia has reason to fear NATO.

          --
          ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:17PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:17PM (#1233770)

            NATO is no threat to the land and people who comprise Russia. It is only the political incumbency and kleptocracy which is threatened. The leaders of these will spare no butchery to preserve their ascendancy.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:27PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:27PM (#1233774)

            Only if Russia attacks a NATO nation or use nukes or chemical weapons. Don't spread FUD about Russia having any other reason to fear NATO, don't be that ignorant fool guy.

            • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:33PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:33PM (#1233778)

              Runaway
              Is
              A
              Russian
              Troll

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @10:37PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @10:37PM (#1233854)

                No, it's not a troll, it's a limited special case of retardation.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @05:08PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @05:08PM (#1234071)

                RIART?

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by raz0r on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:26PM (8 children)

    by raz0r (16943) on Thursday March 31 2022, @04:26PM (#1233758)

    Finland needs to join NATO, don't waste time, otherwise this is reality. Recall that Ukraine was not accepted into NATO and Russia attacked it. If Ukraine had been in NATO, Russia would have abstained.
    If you pay attention to Ukraine we can see how Russia was given the boot, although Ukraine does not have enough power to push Russia back to Moscow, but they can destroy them in Ukraine and free the country. Nevertheless, there are plenty of cannonballs in Russia, and it is a danger to countries that are not in NATO!
    I almost forgot, the salary of an ordinary soldier is, 17400 Robles, which is about 211 U.S. dollars. (exchange rate: https://moneyconvert.net/rub/17400-to-usd) [moneyconvert.net] (salary source: https://visasam.ru/emigration/rabota/zarplata-voennosluzhashih.html) [visasam.ru] Yes, they are willing to die and kill others for that money. That's why Putin will be at war for a long time, he needs World War 3.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:08PM (7 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:08PM (#1233767) Journal

      I think your first paragraph is spot on.

      Your second paragraph seems to be wishful thinking. Ukraine isn't going to take back Donetsk, Luhansk, Crimea, the canal, or the land bridge. That's all gone, and Ukraine doesn't have the power to change that.

      --
      ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:37PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 31 2022, @05:37PM (#1233780)

        Such a shill

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @01:20AM (3 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @01:20AM (#1233900) Journal

        Ukraine isn't going to take back Donetsk, Luhansk, Crimea, the canal, or the land bridge.

        Yet. We'll see what happens when Putin is no in power.

        • (Score: 2) by legont on Friday April 01 2022, @02:50AM (2 children)

          by legont (4179) on Friday April 01 2022, @02:50AM (#1233926)

          Trust me, bro, you don't want to see who will replace Putin; even in your nightmares.

          Hint. Chechen Muslim.

          --
          "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday April 01 2022, @03:25AM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @03:25AM (#1233930) Journal
            Then try again. Point is that dictatorships don't do so well when there's a lot of turnover.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @07:28PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @07:28PM (#1234131)

            I thought RunZaway was taking over?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @07:26PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 01 2022, @07:26PM (#1234129)

        Now that the Russian invasion has turned into a 5-year plan, I wouldn't count out the chances of the Ukrainians taking back their territory.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 01 2022, @08:55PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 01 2022, @08:55PM (#1234149) Journal

          Where do you get the five year plan from? Do you have inside information from the Kremlin that the rest of us don't? Or, were you presuming that Russia wanted to take all of Ukraine?

          From the beginning, I presumed that Russia wanted pretty much what they have right now. Donbass, North Crimea canal, and a land bridge. That, and destroy a bunch of shit in the rest of Ukraine, so as to make it harder for Ukraine to recover. I certainly didn't expect Russia to take and occupy all of Ukraine. Occupying those regions of Ukraine with a large population of Russian speaking and Russian ethnic population will be quite enough of a job. It appears that Mariupol will be a quite a large task for occupiers. Wait, and watch. When serious negotiation begin, Russia will almost certainly negotiate away a lot of what they occupy now, in exchange for the canal, and the land bridge.

          One more time: I'm not saying that it's right, or it's wrong. That's just what I see happening.

          --
          ‘Never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals’
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