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posted by janrinok on Friday July 29 2022, @01:28PM   Printer-friendly
from the ketchup-with-china dept.

Senate passes massive package to boost U.S. computer chip production

[....] The 64-33 vote represents a rare bipartisan victory a little more than three months before the crucial November midterms; 17 Republicans joined all Democrats in voting yes. The package, known as "CHIPS-plus," now heads to the House, which is expected to pass it by the end of the week and send it to President Joe Biden for his signature.

[....] The centerpiece of the package is more than $50 billion in subsidies for domestic semiconductor manufacturing and research.

Supporters on Capitol Hill, as well as key members of Biden's Cabinet, have argued that making microchips at home — rather than relying on chipmakers in China, Taiwan and elsewhere — is critical to U.S. national security, especially when it comes to chips used for weapons and military equipment.

[...] The final chips bill is a slimmed-down version of a much broader China competitiveness package that House and Senate lawmakers had been negotiating. Earlier, the Senate passed its bill, known as USICA, while the House passed its own version, the America COMPETES Act. But lawmakers couldn't resolve their differences, and leading Democrats decided to switch their strategy and scale back the legislation.

The package also includes tens of billions more in authorizations for science and research programs, as well as for regional technology hubs around the country.

If passed, will this be well spent? Will the US actually be globally competitive in chip manufacture?


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  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by c0lo on Friday July 29 2022, @01:37PM (5 children)

    by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 29 2022, @01:37PM (#1263616) Journal

    Yes, they will. At way higher prices than Taiwan offers now.
    Because in 2-5 years [theguardian.com], China will very likely invade Taiwan [japantimes.co.jp]

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by oumuamua on Friday July 29 2022, @02:56PM (4 children)

      by oumuamua (8401) on Friday July 29 2022, @02:56PM (#1263624)

      Both those articles were written before the Ukraine invasion, they can both be considered out-of-date. The Ukraine invasion itself is enough to make China reconsider any 'plans of invasion' it may have have had. Yet the Ukraine invasion had another effect of making everyone worry about how to prevent a possible invasion when the best course of action is to retain the status quo. For all the news on Pelosi going to Taiwan, I have yet to hear WHY she wants to go besides being part of an 'Asia tour'. https://www.ft.com/content/1ed04488-dbf6-44b1-910a-de04eb3b08e2 [ft.com]
      An Asian tour that does not include China itself, so in fact it is the 'Anti-China Asian tour', of course China will be upset about that. Just like the US is upset about China possibly making a military base in the Solomons: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/26/us-wont-rule-out-military-action-if-china-establishes-base-in-solomon-islands [theguardian.com]

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Freeman on Friday July 29 2022, @03:59PM (2 children)

        by Freeman (732) on Friday July 29 2022, @03:59PM (#1263654) Journal

        Look at Hong Kong, right now. It's extremely likely that Taiwan will either end up with the same fate or end up like the Ukraine. Except that China has a lot more people, indoctrinated a lot better than Russia has now. Though, it's certainly possible that something tanks in China and a lot worse stuff happens for China.

        --
        Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by HiThere on Friday July 29 2022, @07:37PM (1 child)

          by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 29 2022, @07:37PM (#1263721) Journal

          Bazz-Fazz. Tanks won't be significant. What WILL be significant is control of the seas surrounding Taiwan. And China is taking clear steps to command those. If Taiwan is isolated (except by air?), then the economic effects will be sufficient without any invasive military actions. But it might take a decade or so. (I'm no expert in that area, but Taiwan is a relatively small island quite close to China.)

          I'd wonder about Okinawa, but sea level rise will probably make that unimportant.

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
          • (Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Saturday July 30 2022, @02:39AM

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 30 2022, @02:39AM (#1263814) Journal

            it's certainly possible that something tanks in China and a lot worse stuff happens for China.

            Bazz-Fazz. Tanks won't be significant.

            The English language is like a woman, gotta love it even if at times you don't quite understand it (large grin)

            I'll direct your attention to the definition of "to tank - intransitive verb - to suffer rapid decline, failure, or collapse" [merriam-webster.com].

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday July 30 2022, @02:23AM

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 30 2022, @02:23AM (#1263807) Journal

        China won't take chances on Taiwan [project-syndicate.org], but will move in when they are ready (and/or the opposition they are likely to encounter is in a moment of weakness).

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
  • (Score: 5, Funny) by Snotnose on Friday July 29 2022, @01:54PM (2 children)

    by Snotnose (1623) on Friday July 29 2022, @01:54PM (#1263618)

    Anything the government buys, be it radar for the F35 or a laptop for the cook's secretary must have chips that are made in the USA.

    Oops, my bad. My way doesn't provide any pork for anyone.

    --
    When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
    • (Score: 2) by Snotnose on Friday July 29 2022, @09:37PM

      by Snotnose (1623) on Friday July 29 2022, @09:37PM (#1263747)

      Got it. Proposing the stick be used, instead of the carrot, makes me a troll. I'll remember that.

      --
      When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
    • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday August 01 2022, @02:19PM

      by Freeman (732) on Monday August 01 2022, @02:19PM (#1264237) Journal

      Actually, the way you suggest, sounds like there's going to be lots of pork for everyone. Subsidy, subsidy, subsidy.

      --
      Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 29 2022, @02:36PM (2 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday July 29 2022, @02:36PM (#1263622)

    https://builtin.com/hardware/american-made-semiconductor-costs [builtin.com]

    From an environmental perspective, foundries require massive amounts of water and power to operate. Taiwan Superconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) foundries in Phoenix need around 4.7 million gallons of water per day to support production... Factories used 6 percent of [Arizona’s] water in 2019, but with TSMC and Intel both planning new facilities, the fear is that number will grow.

    --
    🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday July 29 2022, @07:00PM (1 child)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 29 2022, @07:00PM (#1263711) Journal

      If the factories need more water, the people can simply use less water.

      I can foresee a need for factories to need more robots. Especially semiconductor manufacturers. More robots will require more chips. Making more chips will require making more robots. You don't think reliable labor will come from water-consuming humans?

      --
      With modern TVs you don't have to worry about braking the yolk on the back of the picture tube.
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 29 2022, @07:20PM

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday July 29 2022, @07:20PM (#1263714)

        If the factories need more water, the people can simply use less water.

        You think you're joking, this is exactly how tomatoes vs residents plays out in Sarasota County, Florida. Drought? Rationing! Alternate days car washing, lawn watering only between 5 and 7AM, flow restrictors in your showers, low-volume flush toilets in all new construction, hefty fines handed out to violators! Meanwhile, the tomato crop continues to receive 6 to 9" of flood and runoff irrigation per day, consuming more water annually than the 400,000 residents of the county - even before rationing was implemented.

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
  • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by Gaaark on Friday July 29 2022, @03:21PM (3 children)

    by Gaaark (41) on Friday July 29 2022, @03:21PM (#1263633) Journal

    If the US can manufacture their own chips, they can then abandon Taiwan if necessary: supporting Taiwan from a distance will be difficult.

    --
    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Friday July 29 2022, @03:39PM (2 children)

      by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Friday July 29 2022, @03:39PM (#1263644)

      Doesn't anybody wonder why manufacturing has moved away from the US and to Taiwan in the first place?

      Cuz once the US has rebuilt its capability to manufacture chips and the subsidies are gone, the exact same thing will happen again.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Gaaark on Friday July 29 2022, @03:52PM

        by Gaaark (41) on Friday July 29 2022, @03:52PM (#1263647) Journal

        That's what legislation is for:

        "The US will only purchase American made chips or devices with American made chips, manufactured in America, by Americans."

        Costs go up and jobs stay: WIN/WIN......ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
      • (Score: 2) by legont on Saturday July 30 2022, @03:27AM

        by legont (4179) on Saturday July 30 2022, @03:27AM (#1263837)

        Steve Jobs tried to make his things in the US and failed. Twice.

        --
        "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 29 2022, @03:23PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 29 2022, @03:23PM (#1263634)

    Didn't we already pay A LOT of money to bring this shit back? Didn't Trump save all the jaaaaaaaabs in his first month?

    I guess if something's worth paying for, it's worth paying for twice.

  • (Score: 3, Flamebait) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Friday July 29 2022, @03:36PM (3 children)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Friday July 29 2022, @03:36PM (#1263642)

    Isn't that socialism? Aren't companies supposed to make it on their own without any help from the state?

    Because as we all know, not a single cent of the taxpayers' money is ever distributed free of charge to private concerns in the US. If it was, the people would be up in arms!

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 29 2022, @03:37PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 29 2022, @03:37PM (#1263643)

      You're 1/2 right. When the profits come, they won't be shared so it's not socialism. So that's good.

      • (Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Friday July 29 2022, @03:54PM

        by Gaaark (41) on Friday July 29 2022, @03:54PM (#1263650) Journal

        The drool down effect?
        :)

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 29 2022, @10:26PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 29 2022, @10:26PM (#1263754)

      It's only socialism when subsidies are given to companies and industries you don't like. When you give money to a poor person, that's socialism because they need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and work. When you give money to farmers, that's protecting the American way of life and giving Monsanto and ADM a hand up, not a hand out. Welfare is in the eye of the beholder.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by SomeRandomGeek on Friday July 29 2022, @03:53PM (1 child)

    by SomeRandomGeek (856) on Friday July 29 2022, @03:53PM (#1263649)

    This is not about economics. The US and China have both realized that both their militaries are utterly dependent on advanced chips. And 92% of those chips are made in Taiwan. The rest are made in South Korea. If China were to invade Taiwan there would be a supply disruption far more severe than the one caused by COVID. The US military would very much like to avoid that.
    https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/taiwan-china-chips/ [reuters.com]

    • (Score: 2) by legont on Saturday July 30 2022, @03:33AM

      by legont (4179) on Saturday July 30 2022, @03:33AM (#1263838)

      The sad truth is, the US military has no capacity to protect Taiwan.

      --
      "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by RamiK on Friday July 29 2022, @03:55PM (2 children)

    by RamiK (1813) on Friday July 29 2022, @03:55PM (#1263651)

    Will the US actually be globally competitive in chip manufacture?

    Nope. No one is talking about building the next Guangdong. Intel made it explicitly clear their intention behind this bailout bill is to decentralize manufacturing. So, just like the auto-industry's abandonment of Detroit, they're spreading the state-wide pork through authorizing "science and research programs, as well as for regional technology hubs around the country" and talking about ASIC licensing somehow magically managing to compensate for the loss of general compute dominance, while breaking apart and outsourcing all their manufacturing to not-China.

    At best, this bill will make sure the US won't become dependent on just China for the supply chain. However, fundamentally, this bill signs the end of Made-in-America chips.

    --
    compiling...
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 29 2022, @06:24PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 29 2022, @06:24PM (#1263697)

      "the US won't become dependent on just China for the supply chain"

      BFD. I don't see a bailout of any of the other electronics components you need.

      "Intel made it explicitly clear their intention behind this bailout bill"

      Says it all. It smells just like the United Airlines pork-feed.

      • (Score: 2) by RamiK on Friday July 29 2022, @11:13PM

        by RamiK (1813) on Friday July 29 2022, @11:13PM (#1263772)

        bailout of any of the other electronics components you need

        We can source everything else from everywhere else. However, wafers aren't commodities since wafer growing is a per fab's lithography process so the growers aren't willing to operate in over-supply conditions. So, that leaves you with either:
        1. Parity for wafer growers.
        2. Nationalization of wafer production.
        3. Standardization and decentralization of wafer production.
        4. Let/force Intel to go into wafer tooling and production and hope you won't end up with an even worse too-big-to-fail behemoth a few years from now.
        5. Centralize management and subsidize the wafer production.

        I think no1 would have been the best option since the production scale and times involves against the risks is basically the same as farming but there's literally no "oh no what about all the small farmers..." nonsense so the subsidies won't go crazy.

        --
        compiling...
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