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A basic right in the U.S.A. has been the Freedom of Speech, yet of late it has been under heavy threat. United States Foreign Service Officer (ret.) and author of Hooper's War Peter Van Buren at We Meant Well blogs about Five Bad Arguments to Restrict Speech.
"Open discussion, debate, and argument are the core of democracy. Bad ideas are defeated by good ideas. Fascism seeks to close off all ideas except its own."
The blog entry itself is rather long and contains numerous links to supporting material. Here is the list; below the fold includes an elaboration on the statement and a summary. Read the blog itself for more details and exposition.
- The First Amendment Only Applies to Government?
- What's Said May Provoke Violence in the Room (A Clear and Present Danger)
- What's Said May Provoke Violence Outside (Public Safety)
- Speech Can or Should Be Restricted Based on Content (Hate Speech)
- Free Speech Should Not Be Subject to the Heckler's Veto
[...] 1. The First Amendment Only Applies to Government?
The first fallacious argument used to shut down free speech is that the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights in our Constitution only applies to government, and so universities or other entities are entitled to censor, restrict or shut down altogether speech willy-nilly.
Short Answer: Not really. Public funding invokes the First Amendment for schools, and free speech runs deeper than the Bill of Rights. It's as much a philosophical argument as a legal one, not a bad thing for a nation founded on a set of ideas (and ideals.)
[...] 2. What's Said May Provoke Violence in the Room (A Clear and Present Danger)
Some claim that certain conservative speakers, such as Milo Yiannopoulos, who purposefully use anti-LGBTQ slurs to provoke their audiences, should be banned or shut down. Their speech is the equivalent of yelling Fire! in a crowded movie theatre when there is no actual danger, provoking a deadly stampede for the exits.
Short Answer: The standards for shutting down speech are very restrictive, and well-codified. Milo comes nowhere close.
[...] 3. What's Said May Provoke Violence Outside (Public Safety)
The idea that a university or other venue cannot assure a speaker's safety, or that the speaker's presence may provoke violent protests, or that the institution just doesn't want to go to the trouble or expense of protecting a controversial speaker has become the go-to justification for canceling or restricting speech. Berkley cited this in canceling and then de-platforming (rescheduling her when most students would not be on campus) Ann Coulter, whose campus sponsors are now suing, and New York University cited the same justification for canceling an appearance by Milo Yiannopoulos.
Short Answer: Canceling a speaker to protect them or public safety is the absolute last resort, and some risk to safety is part of the cost to a free society for unfettered speech.
[...] 4. Speech Can or Should Be Restricted Based on Content (Hate Speech)
There are no laws against "hate speech." A speaker can call people names, and insult them by their race, sexual orientation or religious beliefs. What many people think and say is hateful. It is carefully thought out to inspire hate, to promote hate, to appeal to crude and base instincts. Indeed, that is their point. But there is no law or other prohibition against hate speech. Even restrictions on "hate speech" meant to prevent violence, often cited as the justification to restrict such speech, are by design extremely narrow.
Short Answer: You cannot restrict hate speech. Free speech means just that, with any limited restrictions content-neutral.
[...] 5. Free Speech Should Not Be Subject to the Heckler's Veto
Another argument used by some progressives is that the so-called Heckler's Veto is in itself protected speech. Someone may have a right to speak, but someone else has the same right to shout them down and prevent them from being heard.
Short answer: Free speech is not intended to mean whomever can literally "speak" the loudest gets to control what is said. The natural end of such thinking is mob rule, where Speaker A gets a bigger gang together to shout down the gang Speaker B controls.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday August 19 2017, @04:30PM (18 children)
What morons don't understand is that free speech is a timeless value, we all saw how those leftist psychos were all in favor of restricting free speech when their guy was in charge. We saw with our own two eyes how the same morons calling the constitution an "antiquated document written by old White men" and calling for gun bans only now started waving around muh constitution and learning how to shoot after Trump got into office. If people of all political colors would understand why free speech is a timeless value and respect the opposition's right to free speech then they wouldn't allow themselves to be jerked back and forth by the Republican/Democrat false dichotomy.
This is what frequently happens when you try to explain things to angry minorities and other rabblerousing losers like Antifa. To those kinds I say -- You have no ideology other than violence, and you're not fooling anybody with your hysterical obsession with Nazis and calls for justice. Your kind are fighting for interests which run counter to your own, and your groups don't have organizers -- they have handlers. Many of you are even paid to do what you do. Your kind need to be rounded up, convicted of sedition, and sent to the gulags. How does it feel to be a useful idiot?
And just who defines what "hate speech" is? It seems that more and more things are considered to be "hate speech" nowadays. See my first item above -- you'll appreciate a populus that respects free speech when it's your ass that's up against the wall.
See my second point above -- If you don't respect free speech, then off to the gulags with you.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 19 2017, @05:01PM (9 children)
That sounds stupid and yappy.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday August 19 2017, @06:45PM (8 children)
Your momma sounds stupid and yappy, but I put up with it just to get my dick sucked.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 19 2017, @06:47PM (7 children)
Not my momma. That's a man in a wig. You're gay. And still stupid!
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Saturday August 19 2017, @08:29PM (6 children)
Does Eth post this crap himself or does he really have a groupie hanging out on SN 24/7 waiting for an opportunity to reply?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 19 2017, @08:45PM (1 child)
Somebody trying to cure stupid one idiot at a time? Way too much dumb on the internet to fix!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 19 2017, @09:28PM
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday August 20 2017, @02:13AM (3 children)
Frankly, that person is annoying as fuck. If they were a little more creative about their arguments, then they would be more bearable, but I dislike those posts just as much as you all do.
Outspoken people generally attract weirdo-stalker types. If there's any question here, it should be why it took so long for me to get one here.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 20 2017, @02:53PM
Good, be annoyed. Karma is a motherfucker.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 20 2017, @03:54PM
Stupid people generally attract attention.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 20 2017, @03:59PM
You're really, really overrating yourself if you think you are some sort of "internet star" with a following of fans and weirdos. Look at your past posts and you will see just another dumb-ass with a keyboard.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by n1 on Saturday August 19 2017, @06:28PM (3 children)
There seem to be just as many useful idiots who think Soros, BLM/Antifa and the 'liberal elite' are the cause of all the social ills as there are useful idiots who think Nazis and and 'old white men' are the root of the problems.
You seem to be buying into the same false dichotomy but instead of the more typical Republican/Democrat branding, we just replace it with the more reactionary alt- faux anti-establishment branding on the fringes of those old brands.
The D/R labels manufactured useful idiots the same as this new 'counter culture' versions liberalism and conservatism brands is manufacturing new generations of useful idiots. Ultimately it still comes back to the D/R branding anyway, since mostly you're still all voting for them, and will continue to do so, to beat 'the other' side. They both want their safe zones, be it on popular social media networks or gab.ai and the now popular 'locker room banter' clause. Freedom of speech is extremely important, sadly the most vocal about it's importance invest very little energy to use it constructively to educate and inform. it's all preaching to the choir for the high-fives, shitposting memes like thousands of others and proclaiming you're 'woke' and virtue signaling works for both factions.
I am not a centrist, I do not believe in the horseshoe political theory that comes along with it. I am completely non-partisan and not affiliated to any political ideology, and I think we're still all dancing to the tune as intended. The 'liberals' and 'conservatives' are more militant and divided, less willing to seek dialogue despite how both sides proclaim to be defenders of liberty and free speech. And the rest of us, people like me, have just become so disillusioned with any attempt at political discourse we can't even talk politics anymore.
I have spent the last decade following politics, domestic and internationally very closely. Enjoying discussing it at length for many hours with people I agree and disagree with, playing devils advocate on many occasions, taking on fringe positions to get as deep into the ideologies as possible. But now, it's seems impossible to do that because any attempt at rational discourse or objective examining of a position is countered with accusations of 'fake news' or other dismissive catchphrases from anyone who actually proclaims to support a political/social ideology.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday August 19 2017, @06:49PM
You are correct. In fact, I should have included the useful rightist idiots in the recent White Nationalist rally in which we saw a protestor killed.
It seems really convenient how all of a sudden White Nationalist rallies are getting media attention, and provides a convenient opportunity to conflate more moderate rightists with extremist Nazis, which also conveniently plays right into the hands of the Antifa extremists when egged on by the media traitors.
That operation was also not planned, but rather handled.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Saturday August 19 2017, @08:33PM
Cognitive ills are eternal. Fueling them with money will make it worse and in some cases necessitate negative feedback back to the source.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 20 2017, @10:12AM
Well, we know who's really doing it. [youtube.com] But we're forbidden to point out obvious commonalities in advocates of destructive policy. [pastebin.com] All groups are allowed to advance their own interests, even to the detriment of others except ~8% of the world population (those of European descent), but if you point that you're "insane" or "evil", despite such things being facts. And then false flags are believed by fools all around [youtube.com], because people don't study history or know that such things are the standard method of governance. [youtube.com]
The problem is that the common person is completely ignorant about the nature of reality, and so indoctrinated that even the smarter ones will fight any attempt to show them they've been deceived. Almost everything taught to the masses is full of lies. Here is a point to begin from: You keep slaves ignorant. If you need slaves that can read to do your labor then fill their heads with bullshit. Knowledge is power. Rulers don't give serfs power. Failing to realize this and not questioning Everything, even the farcical academic sciences, is the root of the problem. For not teaching you this properly you can blame your parents and their parents, etc. going all the way back to the Reformation and Spanish Inquisition which rewrote history and enforced a bogus worldview and timeline as well as many other falsehoods still preached in schools today. We have never repaired the damage done by burning books, historians and their scholars at the stake as witches and heretics to enforce the bogus worldview. That is ultimately wherefrom the current batch of mindrot stems.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 20 2017, @11:24AM (3 children)
One could do much worse than simply quoting Sid Meyer games when it comes to political issues.
As a cyberneticist I feel this is a more precise conceptualization. It's not "free speech", it's free flow of information. Economics, Thermodynamics, and Information Theory (which borrows from both prior) support the observation that unfettered sharing of ideas and energy breeds prosperity and freedom. Alas, the average person or politician has not the desire to learn the universal truths of our world. Consider the environment which restricts the expression of some form of information (let's say a certain class of genes). In some portion of probability it may be the very restricted information that leads to expression of more complex information (adaptations) and even better suitability for the environment. What good would eyes ever be to creatures living in the darkest deeps? And yet because some are allowed to see where sight is otherwise useless bioluminescence has emerged in wondrous variety.
Think about this: Hitler was on the cover of Time Magazine twice for his "German Miracle", reviving a destitute nation from depravity, rampant prostitution and poverty in just a few short years into an economic marvel. I'm not saying genocide or racism is just or virtuous, I'm saying that if we do let these so called Nazis speak we may learn something else from them. Nature ignores the bad ideas and rewards the good, even when they come from the same set of mutations. In order to do likewise in the marketplace of ideas competition must be allowed, i.e., speech must be free.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 20 2017, @12:57PM (2 children)
One of these things is not like the others. Poverty is an actual problem. Meanwhile depravity and rampant prostitution didn't go away [wikipedia.org].
If we are to discuss the solving of problems, it's worth noting that Nazis are notorious for actions not meeting words.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 21 2017, @12:21AM (1 child)
That can be said of all current ideologies, even more so today.
Let's take a look at a so-called "Nazi" who is actually a race realist (recognizing differences in race) that was once involved in foreign aide in Africa (whence comes their realism). [imgur.com]
In that discussion they detailed their compassion for Africans but the utter destructiveness of putting local farmers out of business by giving free food. Then the food stops, even less farmers exist to feed the populace, and so even more people die awaiting foreign aid. Furthermore, this "Nazi" claims that it is folly to give unfettered medical aide to a people who have evolved to combat high infant mortality by having a high fertility rate. Claiming that even more children are born into suffering with parents who can not support them also starving. They said that perhaps a public works program which awarded health care and subsidies food to those who actually worked to build up their nations would be a better solution (which I noted was indeed in line with pre-WWII National Socialist agendas).
I don't agree with their proposition that all foreign aide should be cut, leaving African culture to evolve as they might. Nor do I agree that we are wrong to assume Africa needs help because "we are being racially-bigoted by judging African culture by European cultural yardsticks and finding them inferior". However, I do think their views could be instructive in creating a better foreign aide program. For, you see, currently the world claims to care about Africa but most charities are cash grabs funneling goods to war lords who take control of the majority of aide to feed their armies of soldiers who fight just to eat. So, you can see that the current world's nations are more than "notorious for actions not meeting words", but at least the "Nazis" actually realize there is a problem with the methods employed and seek to do something to reduce suffering.
When the "Nazis" have done more to shed a light on the plight of the African Bantu peoples than the "anti-racists", it SHOULD really makes you think. Have you ever talked to a Nazi before? I think not.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 21 2017, @02:41AM
This is relevant because the "Nazi" is claiming that Africans can't change because they're African (or at least of the "African Bantu peoples") rather than because they're immersed in a primitive culture which is not adapted to modern ideas of advancement and progress. It's a position of helplessness based on unfounded assumptions about the impact of race. But everyone else was in that same stagnant position and they changed.
Further, this narrative also ignores that Africa is changing in the same ways as everyone has been changing. They're becoming, for example, wealthier and lower fertility just like everyone else. they're just further behind on the curve.
And if one thinks about it, why would the Peace Corps approach work any better anywhere else? Go to a primitive European, American, or Asian farmer who is happy with his situation, what's going to stick of the new, unnecessary teachings?