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The last two of eight prototypes for President Donald Trump's proposed border wall took shape Thursday at a construction site in San Diego.
The prototypes, including one built by Israeli defense firm Elta, form a tightly packed row of imposing concrete and metal panels, including one with sharp metal edges on top.
[...] The models, which cost the government up to $500,000 each, were spaced 30 feet (9.1 meters) apart. Slopes, thickness and curves vary. One has two shades of blue with white trim. The others are gray, tan or brown — in sync with the desert.
Bidding guidelines call for the prototypes to stand between 18 and 30 feet (5.5 and 9.1 meters) high and be able to withstand at least an hour of punishment from a sledgehammer, pickaxe, torch, chisel or battery-operated tools.
Features also should prevent the use of climbing aids such as grappling hooks, and the segments must be "aesthetically pleasing" when viewed from the US side.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @10:24AM (56 children)
No protection against shaped charges. Or underground tunnels. Or man-made flying objects.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday October 21 2017, @10:44AM (12 children)
I think we can fairly safely assume that it's just not going to be the physical wall. While they didn't go the full moat full of crocodiles (I think they would have been turned into croc-tacos anyway) and/or sentry guns route I think we can assume there is going to be a whole battery of sensors near, on and around the walls and there will still be patrols on the right side of the border. So hopefully they'll know if someone runs up to the wall and plants a shaped charge, if nothing else they'll hear it soon afterwards, and one would hope they know how to spot a catapult or other hurler of flying objects. Tunnel-digging is also a sensory job.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:07AM (3 children)
Your usage of the word "right" concerns me...
(Score: 4, Funny) by looorg on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:12AM (1 child)
It could be the left side of the border to depending on where you look at it from.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @03:15PM
I'll give you a point for pedantry but you still sound like a sleazebag to me...
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday October 24 2017, @08:27AM
Of course Trump will weigh in. He'll choose the winner, the winner, the winningest wall of winners, it'll be winning, winning, winning all the way.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday October 21 2017, @01:21PM (6 children)
A bazooka rocket is also a shaped charge [wikipedia.org]
Just for the fun of it: damage a half a million wall segment with a $500 round [military-today.com]
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday October 21 2017, @01:35PM (3 children)
The model or prototype might be $500k each, that doesn't mean that the finished or fabricated segments will be $500k each. There is clearly not enough materials or labor cost in there for that price, so this will just be the prototype and R&D costs.
I don't recall now what has been said but the wall is probably not going to be put EXACTLY on the spot of the actual border, I assume it will be a little inside the US-side so there is a bit of US on both sides of the wall. Enough room for a mine field perhaps or the option to shoot to kill anything that gets close to the wall. So if they start shooting RPG:s at the wall from the Mexican side I think this will quite quickly escalate and you'll start to see more armed patrols that will shoot to kill anything that even gets close to the wall, there will be actual working mine fields etc.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @03:21PM (1 child)
I see you support extra-judicial killings as well as judge-jury-and-executioner powers for those you whom you, mistakenly, think would welcome you in their 'in-group'.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday October 22 2017, @02:29AM
See, I wonder if Trump even knows about the wall that came down in 1989? That one started construction in 1961 and had a pretty successful run reducing border crossings for 28 years. A lot to learn from that experience: frontier zones, shoot to kill towers, etc. Also: what people on both sides thought of it, and what that ultimately did to the empire which tried to maintain it.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:06PM
As you say, those are the costs for the models or prototypes. As for the wall itself, the article tells us:
That comes to, in round numbers, $13,500 per meter or $12,350 per yard ($135 per cm or $343 per inch).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:36PM (1 child)
Your link says the price can be as little as $100 per round.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday October 22 2017, @12:13AM
To be pedantic, the second link says
Worst case scenario, $500.
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday October 24 2017, @08:11AM
I'm surprised they haven't contracted in any companies from the former East Germany. They have a lot of experience in building this sort of wall.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday October 21 2017, @10:51AM (40 children)
Yup. Be cheaper to just go with land mines and concertina wire.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:15AM (5 children)
You can thrash mexicans and the cartels for a lot of things, but they are certainly both smart and dedicated enough to fine a way over that wall and monetize it, whether compromising border agents, disabling the sensors, blowing a hole in it, or just driving a truck with a ramp up to it and rappelling down the far side (hint: 30 foot wall is short enough for a crane or firetruck, or even a people carried and assembled pole or gantry crane. Get people on both sides of the wall for transportation and it isn't much of a stretch to pull off. Assuming you don't just burrow under. If time is on your side you can tunnel without enough noise to be detectable as seismic events, and probably not even by acoustic or seismic sensors directly on the wall itself.
Just another in a long line of political boondoggles from the American Political Cartel.
Hey, maybe it is time to use RICO against them?
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday October 21 2017, @01:56PM (4 children)
Here by the border tunnels are a big deal, such that cartels hire geo and structural engineers willingly or by force to assist in their design.
They have such advanced features as ventilation ducts and even mine-style rail car systems and on the us side tunnel into warehouses bought with cartel money.
Yep, Mexicans, man. They're like termites. Breed like vermin and never go away once they're in.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:33PM
You're being stupid again.
(Score: 3, Informative) by krishnoid on Saturday October 21 2017, @09:55PM (2 children)
A legitimate news organization [theonion.com] confirms this.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Sunday October 22 2017, @04:19AM (1 child)
Has the Onion moved into real jornalism?
200 million years is actually quite a long time.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Unixnut on Sunday October 22 2017, @09:19AM
> Has the Onion moved into real jornalism?
The fact nobody can tell, or be sure, says a lot about the state of the modern world.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:28AM (33 children)
Looking at the images of the various prototype-wall-segments in article I am a bit surprised that there doesn't seem to be more concertina- or barbed-wires or just more spikes and razors. OK so they don't want things to stick out that can be used to aid climbing and such. Still I had guessed they would have looked a bit more unfriendly. Mine fields are great and all but I don't think they'll put one down mostly for safety reasons, still the US hasn't signed the land mine ban treaty as far as I can remember so it could technically be an option. The outcry if they did tho might be a bit much. Still they could put down like a non-lethal mine field.
It wouldn't surprise me to much if the Israeli firm (ELTA) wins the contract, considering they have decades of experience in building walls to keep the wrong elements out (or in). But then it's rarely the best that wins government contracts.
Construction costs are one thing, but it's not a one time cost. I do wonder what the maintenance costs for the great MAGA wall is going to run per year.
(Score: 0, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday October 21 2017, @12:40PM (29 children)
Yeah, the above wasn't said in seriousness. If we really wanted a secure border we'd have one though. Keeping an area from being crossed by anyone is a long solved military problem. It's just not in either party's interest to actually have one. The Republicans need a porous border so they can repeatedly sell the idea of a secure border that will never materialize. The Democrats need a porous border or they don't get a steady supply of illegal voters and people dependent on government handouts.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @03:24PM (3 children)
You keep using such phrases without backing them up with actual evidence.
(Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:16PM (2 children)
The evidence is the publicly stated policies of the Democratic party. I can't force someone who's willing to gouge their own eyes out rather than admit the truth to see though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @10:51PM (1 child)
Donald Trump has a position paper [donaldjtrump.com] on the topic. I didn't check carefully but it looks like it's the same one that was there before the election.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @12:13AM
Let me handle that.
Voting when you aren't registered to is a felony.
If it was the slightest bit true, the prisons would be full of those folks and Buzzard could give us a long list--instead of zip, the way he did.
...and when you hear about this stuff, it's always Republicans who are the offenders.
http://www.google.com/search?tbs=li:1&q=intitle:Steve.Bannon+registered.to.vote+at.an.empty.house [google.com]
http://www.google.com/search?q=voter-fraud+intitle:Gingrich+11100+1500 [google.com]
http://www.google.com/search?q=voter-fraud+Ann-Coulter+Palm-Beach [google.com]
http://www.google.com/search?q=voter-fraud+Mitt-Romney+sold+home [google.com]
http://www.google.com/search?q=voter-fraud+Todd.Akin [google.com]
http://www.google.com/search?q=voter-fraud+%22.Charlie.White%22 [google.com]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @04:40PM (3 children)
[citation needed]
Illegal voters are only a problem in the delusional fantasies of brain-damaged republitards. People dependent on government handouts are only a problem because the United States has devolved into a corporatist kleptrocracy that can no longer properly feed and house all of its people.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:36PM (2 children)
Illegal voters exist. Nobody knows in what numbers but that they exist is an inarguable fact. Why does nobody know in what numbers? Because Democrats raise holy hell when anyone tries to verify someone is eligible to vote before they do. Why is that, do you think?
And people are dependent on government handouts because every single race anyone with a D by their name is telling them how they can't possibly succeed in life, but here, have some money. If we spent a quarter of what we do on entitlements teaching people to be self-sufficient, there would be no need for handouts.
Don't get me wrong. The Republicans are absolutely in the pockets of big business and only too happy to sell out the American public. The Democrats are far, far worse though. Republicans only take opportunities from people; Democrats take hope. Their entire political strategy consists of telling you it's impossible to succeed on your own but vote for me and I'll take care of you. People would be better off losing power over their lives at the point of a gun. At least that would be honest.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:29PM
I don't know. What I do know, however, is that the FBI enters people's ID and drivers license photos into a facial recognition database, thereby increasing their ability to conduct unconstitutional mass surveillance on the populace. If I could trust the government to do a single thing without abusing my rights either now or at some point in the future, that would be nice.
They both take away hope, since politics is a soul-crushing game of authoritarianism and corruption. Neither party supports the Constitution. Even though they claim to, most gun rights advocates don't even support the 2nd amendment, since they support gun control as soon as they deem a weapon to be 'too dangerous' (like with fully-automatic and explosive weapons). Obviously gun control advocates don't care about the 2nd amendment. Very, very few politicians in either party seem to support the fourth amendment. Nearly all of them support limitations on freedom of speech that do not exist in the first amendment (some combination of obscenity, free speech zones, protest permits, hate speech, etc.).
I am not convinced that democrats are far, far worse. They are almost equally abysmal.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:08PM
There are millions and millions of illegal voters, at least 7 million. We know because we have a database. Kris Kobach found them with his Interstate Crosscheck. His database. The Dems obstructed it in a lot, a lot of states, but he found millions in the database. There's massive voter fraud in Virginia, New Hampshire, and California. These are people who vote in two, three, four, five states on the same day. People, in my opinion, that are voting many, many, many times. Which is a very serious crime. And some have been charged. Believe me, they have been charged. Several faced charges and had to appear in court. There's a very credible study, the Richman study, that found a lot, a lot of illegals are voting. Tremendous voter fraud, very crooked. And if you deduct those millions of people who voted illegally, I won the popular vote.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Saturday October 21 2017, @04:57PM (3 children)
No, we wouldn't, because never in the history of the human race has there been a completely secure political border. People managed to get across the Berlin Wall. People managed to cross the Great Wall of China. People can and have breached Israel's Gaza wall. Hadrian's Wall in Britain was crossed periodically by Pictish raiders.
We aren't even able to completely secure the interior of an airport: Every once in a while, somebody gets past the TSA, everybody panics and shuts down the entire airport until they find the idiot who wandered down the wrong hallway. If we can't do that, what makes you think we can secure hundreds of miles of desert and river basin? There's always the equivalent of a 2-meter-wide thermal exhaust port somewhere. A combination of bribery, spying, ingenuity, and courage always find it, sooner or later.
And even if on the off chance we had perfect walls all along the US-Mexico border, it's not like (A) the Mexicans don't have boats and can't simply sail around it and land in California or Texas, and (B) they can't enter on a tourist visa legally and then take a job illegal and overstay their visa.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:19PM (2 children)
I said "secure" not "perfectly secure". Perfect is the enemy of good.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:23PM (1 child)
Border walls are another enemy of good.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:49PM
You know this isn't Twitter, right? You don't have to substitute pithy for intelligent.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:35PM (13 children)
Oh please! Just stop! Both sides need a porous border because the agricultural, textile, and other service industries that pad the party coffers demand cheap labor. Most "illegals" are brought here, and are working, with no social benefits. All this silly self-righteous indignation is such a distraction. Put a sock in it!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:51PM (12 children)
Erm... which social benefits are they denied? I'm not aware of anything but Social Security that is even legally allowed to ask your immigration status.
That aside, I agree with you. Illegally exploiting cheap labor from across the border needs to be stopped.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @06:25PM
Illegally exploiting cheap labor from across the border needs to be stopped.
Fine then, focus on that, and you won't need to waste taxpayer money and energy on some stupid Wall!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @12:23AM (9 children)
Illegally exploiting cheap labor from across the border needs to be stopped
I never thought that I would hear Buzzard say "Workers of the world, unite!"
That's what you're saying. Right?
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:57PM (8 children)
Nah, I'm saying the workers of the US have been getting fucked by the lack of immigration enforcement for the past... well longer than I've been alive. I'm a nationalist not a globalist. You make sure your own household has enough to eat first, then you worry about the neighbors, then you worry about the people across town.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 25 2017, @03:28AM (7 children)
...[and] the people across town.
I'm quite certain that in all of those cases, the adversary is the same: The Capitalist Ownership Class AKA The Man, trying to keep us (The Producers) down.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday October 25 2017, @10:29AM (6 children)
That's your answer to everything. Don't feel like you're making enough money? Capitalist oppression. Healthcare getting more expensive? Capitalist oppression. Stub your toe? Capitalist oppression. At least you're consistent in your victimhood instead of coming up with a new way to blame your life on someone else every time though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 25 2017, @09:17PM (5 children)
Multiple times before, I've referenced Economics professor Thomas Piketty and his 696-page analysis of 250 years of Capitalism.
His conclusion is that Capitalism always leads to Oligarchy (concentrations of abusive power).
So, yeah.
Capitalism also leads to empire, and empires self-destruct.
Your powers of observation don't seem to be as sharp as the professor's.
Your willingness to excuse abusive exploiters, OTOH, is vast.
Condolences on your malformed amygdala.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday October 25 2017, @09:31PM (4 children)
A) 250 years out of many thousands is what we like to call "cherry picking", so I'm not interested in your professor's flawed-by-design analysis.
B) Capitalism has been a key trait of just about every successful empire ever.
C) Socialism has been a key trait of zero successful empires ever.
But do please keep blaming it for all your woes. I need a good laugh now and then.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 26 2017, @02:54AM (3 children)
Capitalism hasn't been around for thousands of years.
As we have seen here repeatedly, most people who like "Capitalism" don't even know what it is.
Suggest you look up "Feudalism" for starters.
successful empire
The words are oxymoronic like "military intelligence", "jumbo shrimp", and "congressional ethics".
Every empire so far has collapsed and USA is clearly in its steep decline.
Socialism has been a key trait of zero successful empires ever
"Oxymoronic" has already been used.
Additionally, "Socialism" and "empire" are antithetical.
...meanwhile, Capitalism, empire, and murder are all closely linked.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 26 2017, @10:50AM (2 children)
Rulership is not the same as an economic system. Feudal systems were pretty much entirely capitalist both on the peasant level and the noble level. If you don't understand at least that much you have no business speaking on economics; if you do you were being deliberately disingenuous.
You seem to hate the word empire. Which is irony-meter-breaking given that you want to impose your will across the entire world. I assume you genuinely don't see the tyranny in that, which is both hilarious and pathetic.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 26 2017, @08:45PM (1 child)
Heh. I was quite sure that you don't understand either and I was right.
In Feudalism, the serf class was bonded to the land.
Unlike an employee who can move to another job, if a serf was found wandering around off his noble's estate, he was in deep shit, very much like a slave in the slave economy of the USAian South.
...and a noble was bound by Noblesse Oblige to look after his serfs--unlike Capitalist employers.
I've previously mentioned Aaron Feuerstein, "The Mensch Of Malden Mills".
He stands out in that he made the very unusual effort among Capitalists to take care of his employees after they were idled when his factory burned down.
So, NO. Capitalism and Feudalism have different names because they're different things.
Again: Most people who like "Capitalism" don't even know what it is.
to impose your will
You don't understand actual Democracy and cooperation either.
Your vision of the world is a very unpleasant place, so full of top-down and conquest that you can't imagine anything else.
#Sad
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 27 2017, @12:55AM
Again you try and conflate rulership with economic systems. Sorry but no. They are not the same thing.
And tyranny of an individual or tyranny of the masses matters very little to those with the boot on their neck.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday October 22 2017, @12:48AM
I promised the great, great American people that I would stop the illegals. Building the Wall is a huge part of that. And I also promised to stop the green cards. President Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of foreign workers entering the United States, until our country's representatives can figure out WHAT THE HELL is going on. #MAGA 🇺🇸
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Saturday October 21 2017, @08:16PM (1 child)
Long solved? Seems that you really think walls work. They don't. "Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man." George S. Patton. See Berlin Wall, Iron Curtain, and Maginot Line. They have to be patrolled and maintained to be of any value whatsoever, and that takes a lot of manpower and resources. They are ridiculously easy to defeat by going over, under, around, or just blasting through them. The hard part of getting past the border is not the wall, it's the guards.
What is it about walls that you guys love so?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:58PM
What makes you think I was talking about the wall?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @04:59PM
Here is a great example of you speaking very confidently about something when you have zero proof. Just FYI, in many stores you'll see magazines with quite amazing stories. We call these tabloids, and they should not be taken seriously.
Also, the guy on infowars is also an admitted actor "playing a part". If you care to be taken seriously you need to back up your bullshit.
Yes I read your other responses in this thread, more bullshit.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Saturday October 21 2017, @01:15PM (1 child)
Looking at the wall sections, I'm thinking I'm in the wrong business. $300 - 500,000 for a short section of wall like that? What is that, 100x labor and material costs?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by looorg on Saturday October 21 2017, @01:38PM
That is probably just prototype and R&D costs. The actual wall segments won't be $500k each. At least I don't think so. That would be insane even for the biggest ever gravy contract. But still there is probably a substantial markup from actual material and labor costs to whatever the segments will actually cost to manufacture and what they'll sell for.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:41PM
>I am a bit surprised that there doesn't seem to be more concertina- or barbed-wires or just more spikes and razors.
Don't blame me; I voted for Ted Cruz.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @02:28PM (1 child)
Or the flying burrito brothers!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @03:14PM
Shaped charge burritos? I think I had some of those.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Bot on Saturday October 21 2017, @10:56AM
this is the 21st century, what about remotely controlled turrets with crowdsourced snipers? everything that moves... blam, new high score, autoposted to facebook.
Before accusing me of being an insensitive bot (TIA), consider that the system, which the USA is part of, routinely treats meatbags worse than that. But hey, induced poisoning, economic warfare, media celebrating schizos that mimick media itself, all that is indirect, is OK. Whatever.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:23AM (16 children)
I'm still waiting for the media to rant up and down about the wall the Israelis built around the West Bank. Or is it, as we already suspect, only OK to build walls and treat people like animals if you're a Zionist?
I think Trump's wall is stupid. I think Israel's wall is an atrocity. Tearing down the Berlin Wall was one of the signature achievements of the late 20th century. That's the direction we should be headed in.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Funny) by coolgopher on Saturday October 21 2017, @12:09PM
How can we triumphantly tear down walls if no one is building walls? Eh? Ever think of that?
(If you can't spot the sarcasm, well... *shrug*)
(Score: 5, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Saturday October 21 2017, @01:18PM (4 children)
The Berlin wall was designed to keep citizens IN more than non-citizens OUT. Not exactly a great analogy.
Look, I'm a pinko lefty and all that. But even I can comprehend why the oligarchy is for open immigration - it means they get to import third world wages right here at home without the bother of offshoring.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:05PM (3 children)
That does bring up an interesting point though. Imagine if the US were completely secured on all sides: A giant unbreachable wall on the Mexican side. A giant unbreachable wall on the Canadian side. Coast Guard so dense that smuggling is completely impossible on the water borders.
Now imagine that the US government decides to take out a bunch of people for what are currently illegal reasons. Not bring them to court, but send the cops or military to kill them. You might suggest they take up arms, but they have AR-15s and the military has drones that can blow them to smithereens from miles away before their targets even hear the missile coming their way (a US government who would do this isn't concerned about how the bad public relations involved in this). That leaves their only viable option as getting out of dodge, but now those secure borders are working against them.
Walls that can keep people out also keep people in, and vice versa.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @10:10PM (1 child)
> Now imagine that the US government decides to take out a bunch of people for what are currently illegal reasons.
"Imagine"? Ever hear of Abdulrahman al-Awlaki or Nawar al-Awlaki?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @12:43AM
As of April 2015, the list included 6 more:
Adam Gadahn
Ahmed Farouq
Samir Khan Bottom
Jude Kenan Mohammed
Warren Weinstein
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @08:56PM
Border walls between neighbouring countries won't really matter in that regard for people in the United States. The country is so huge, 90% of the people living in the US aren't going to get to a neighbouring country in time to prevent their impending death. When backed into a corner, the only option is to fight back or die. With that considered, you should also realise no government will kill an entire population within a country unless they honestly value the dirt that much.
(Score: 5, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday October 21 2017, @01:38PM (1 child)
How do you define a country if you don’t have borders? If we're going to have a country, we need a border. As far as Mexico is concerned I believe strongly in a very, very strong border. We have no border right now, it’s like a sieve. It’s like water pouring through. It’s ridiculous. I just feel strongly that you need to have a border and it has to be strong. Some people thought that was a racist statement. It’s not. And I’m not talking about keeping Mexicans out. I’m talking about keeping the world out. You know, we’re like a dumping ground for the rest of the world. And we’re not getting the finest people. We’re getting people that many other countries, including Mexico, don’t want. They’re sending them over to us because our government is so stupid and so foolishly run that we accept everybody with open arms. It’s not like the old days, so we are getting a lot of bad people coming in. And I’m not talking about Mexico. I’m talking about a lot of bad people period. They’re coming through and they’re pouring through our border and we don’t know what to do with them. I feel we need a strong border. I don’t feel, I know. If we’re going to have a country, we need a border, and we have to have a strong border so illegals aren’t coming in. And that’s illegals coming from all over the world. I think if having borders and having borders -- and I mean strong borders, I don’t think there’s anything strong with that, and frankly, this country better get smart or we’re not going to have a country.
The wall in Israel is working great. The wall in Germany, in Berlin, worked great. And they had the barbed wire fence, the mine fields, the snipers, everything. We're not doing that. We're doing a wall. The American people elected me to keep out the illegals. Not to kill them. Not for killing. As I said, we’re a dumping ground for the rest of the world and we have got to create a border. You don’t have a country without a border. You know, what’s a country? How do you define a country if you don’t have borders? #MAGA 🇺🇸
(Score: 1) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday October 22 2017, @01:29AM
I don’t think there’s anything *wrong* with that.
(Score: 4, Informative) by TheGratefulNet on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:35PM (6 children)
this was 'insightful' ??
you actually compare the relationship between israelis (or jews) and arabs - vs americans and mexicans?
seriously?
there must be a form of godwin that relates to this kind of fallacy.
last I checked, there was not hundreds of years of 'I want to wipe you off the earth!' feelings between americans and mexicans like there are from the arabs to the world's population of jews.
I'm beyond words, on this one. speechless that you'd think that a small country in the middle of hostility (middle east) - that is simply trying to survive the constant threat of being attacked (with intent to remove all jews from the planet) - is acting the same as a SMALL portion of the US that resents 'brown people'?
the way some people's minds work - wow, just wow. ;(
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @06:14PM (1 child)
There aren't hundreds of years of animosity between jews and arabs either - that's a relatively new phenomon that coincides with the Zionist movement and the rise of Wahabbism.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @01:13AM
Yeah. The "history" related by TheGratefulNet is pretty weak.
The Battle of the Alamo (Republic of Texas): 1836
The Mexican-American War: 1846 - 1848
The Balfour Declaration which established British support of a Jewish homeland in Palestine: 1917
The State of Israel founded: 1948
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @10:12PM (2 children)
The Israelis come from Khazaria. They are not Jews. They mass-adopted the Jewish religion (which cannot be done) otherwise their throats would have been cut long ago.
The Israelis are Zionists, not Jews. Many Christians are also Zionists.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:18PM (1 child)
It can't be done, but they did it? Huh?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:23PM
Jews are a race. Judaism is not a religion like other religions. Adopting Judaism does not make one a Jew. You have to be born to real Jews to be a Jew. The Israelis are not Jews.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Sunday October 22 2017, @02:39PM
There must also be another form of godwin for a person who swallows propaganda hook, line, and sinker.
Assertion #1: There are "hundreds of years of 'I want to wipe you off the earth!'" feelings between arabs and the world's population of Jews. In fact, the Palestinians were the only ones who took in Jews fleeing the holocaust after Britain, America, and all other countries turned them down. As thanks, the Zionists then turned around and dispossessed the Palestinians. That's pretty much ground zero for the hostility that exists now between the two parties.
Assertion #2: "a small country in the middle of hostility (middle east) - that is simply trying to survive the constant threat of being attacked." You mean the small country in the middle east that is the only one with nuclear weapons and which invades its neighbors at will, without international retaliation a la the Gulf War? The small country that is running a slo-mo ethnic cleansing campaign of the West Bank? Yeah, poor, poor, poor Israel!
"I'm beyond words, on this one. speechless"
That does rather happen when one is confronted with incontrovertible facts.
"the way some people's minds work - wow, just wow."
I'm more frequently dismayed at how some people's minds don't work. They don't receive information critically, accept any warm, fuzzy cognitive blanket they're given without question.
As for walls, the comparison I draw between Israel's and Trump's is that they are a physical manifestation of bigotry. The walls, and the bigotry, must be torn down.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @08:44PM
Yes, Consistency. Why don't you tear down the walls in your home then?
Tearing down the Berlin wall was a huge accomplishment, but for reasons that are entirely unapplicable to this discussion. The USSR held half a city captive, made the conditions there terrible, and prevented them from leaving. West Berliner's weren't trying to keep those in the east-wing out, just the opposite, their friends and family were on the other side.
Comparing border walls to the Berlin wall is one of the most illogical comparisons anyone has ever made, yet the comparison is constantly made when this discussion is brought up. In this case a more accurate, but figurative example, would be the "walls" between castes in India preventing others from getting to the other side and bettering their family and life to a far greater extreme than those who immigrate from Mexico to the USA. Please never use that comparison again, you're not retarded, you should know better.
(Score: 3, Funny) by MostCynical on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:30AM
if only this was the Israeli model: http://img.wennermedia.com/480-width/gadot-2-f77b8274-9d62-4f3a-84ed-1198a3c0954a.jpg [wennermedia.com]
Useless as a wall, but certainly qualifies as "aesthetically pleasing", from any side..
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Pslytely Psycho on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:33AM (23 children)
Trump himself has made the wall totally pointless.
I'm about to actually say something good about Trump, I may need to shower afterwards.
He proved that just by enforcing existing laws in a publicly visible way, that border crossings dropped dramatically. Obama did not achieve that even though he has been called the deporter-in-chief, because they went out of there way to not publicize what they were doing and concentrated on things like DACA publicly while downplaying the deportations. Trump put the deportations on the front page and before he toughened the immigration laws the crossing began to drop.
He showed that simply publicly enforcing the existing laws and expanding the border patrol was enough to achieve what the wall was intended for, at a dramatically smaller cost. So there is no reason for this ridiculous monument to himself at taxpayer expense, no, Mexico will never pay for it and tariffs just mean you and I will through increased costs for Tequila, Avocados and Freightliner trucks (mine was built in Mexico, not all are).
If he would of stopped at enhancing the border patrol and making what we were already doing so public, as this has actually seemed to work, at a reasonable cost, I could support this. But no, like always he's gotta fuck with it some more as he wants his monument.
Trumps folly, a black hole money pit and deficit expander. Of course deficits only mattered for the last eight years, as the deficit hawks have been replaced by crickets of late.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Pslytely Psycho on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:36AM (2 children)
Fuck, yes, I know the difference between their and there. Of course the error becomes instantly visible as you press submit.
I blame the Tequila.
That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by hemocyanin on Saturday October 21 2017, @01:20PM (1 child)
Also "would of".
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @02:23PM
also, takeela
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Saturday October 21 2017, @12:13PM (3 children)
But you're not seeing the bigger picture. The literally bigger picture. Can't you imagine how absolutely grand it will be to have these massive murals on the wall, celebrating all of President Trump's achievement? Forget Mt. Rushmore, this will be epic on a far grander scale!
(Please let this be a joke please let this be a joke please let this be a joke ...)
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday October 21 2017, @12:33PM (1 child)
I think this might be one of the more interesting side effects, the wall-art that will inevitably show up, just imagine or look at how the Berlin Wall looked -- at least from and on the western side of the wall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall_graffiti_art [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @02:17PM
The Trump graffiti's already there... [themalaysiantimes.com.my] on the Israeli wall. [newsweek.com]
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Saturday October 21 2017, @12:53PM
Personally, I thought the PV panels were to power the 30 foot tall Gold Neon Trump signs on both sides to provide lighting for ICE agents aboard the ISS.
(Please let this be a joke please let this be a joke please let this be a joke ...)
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:18PM (13 children)
If we really wanted to end illegal immigration to the US, we would ruthlessly enforce the laws that make it illegal to employ an illegal immigrant.
For instance, ICE periodically goes through the Smithfield meat packing plant housing and deports a large percentage of their workforce. Within a matter of days, a bunch of new folks arrive from Mexico, and Smithfield is back to normal. ICE waits a while, then goes and does another round of deportation. A few days later, another round of buses arrive. And yet nobody punishes Smithfield or any of its managers. If those jobs didn't exist for illegal immigrants, none of those Mexicans would be coming to that plant. Replicate that across agriculture, hospitality, construction, and many other industries that routinely employ illegal immigrants (and yes, I'm talking about guys in suits and ties being sent to prison here), and those immigrants would stop arriving.
We don't do that because what policymakers want is not to end illegal immigration, but to have an underclass workforce willing to put up with absolutely any horrific treatment you can imagine (and a few you can't) for pay that's a joke. And that's true regardless of political party.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 4, Insightful) by jmorris on Saturday October 21 2017, @07:14PM (5 children)
You are correct. Both the Democrats and the GOPe want exactly that, for different reasons. WE out here in flyover country who have to suffer the side effects of all of this 'cultural enrichment' do not, and that was a big part of why you got Trump. If he doesn't build the wall and actually secure the border, doesn't enforce our laws, he will be a one term failure. And he apparently knows this.
The root of the problem used to be one of trust, we didn't trust our leaders. Now we KNOW they hate us and want to see us dispossessed from our own land because Trump has driven them sufficiently mad they say it it openly now. That is why people want the wall, they know Trump leaves in 2025 best case, so they want the physical wall, not just enforcement. They know almost any future POTUS will try to go back to the old open border routine since the whole Swamp wants and benefits from it. They think the wall will stop that. I know the physical wall won't work without enforcement but think the political will demonstrated by building it against the entrenched forces will send a strong enough message we might get a few years of benefit.
A wall isn't a requirement in a Sane World, Mexico certainly doesn't have one on their Southern border and while they allow those destined for the U.S. to pass through they do NOT allow the poorer masses from points South to flood into and remain in Mexico. They actually enforce their immigration laws. Btw, while they posture about how WE should have an entirely open border for their people, try moving to Mexico. Hmm.
We were watching when the protesters were chanting "No Trump, No Wall, No USA at all!" and we noticed how zero voices from the establishment were raised against that sentiment. Because they believe it. They want a world without borders or countries. We do not. BrExit proves they are waking up and saying NO as well. And look at the rest of Europe, the awakening is happening, perhaps too late but at least we might go out on our feet instead of fast asleep.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Saturday October 21 2017, @07:54PM (1 child)
Oh, they absolutely want borders and countries.
Imagine what would happen if poor people in the US started talking regularly to poor people in, say, Honduras and Iraq and Nigeria. They'd figure out that the people getting rich screwing over poor people in Honduras and Iraq and Nigeria are the same people as the ones getting rich screwing over poor people in the US. And then those poor people might start working together to do something about their common enemies, and I'm not talking about writing petitions to representatives or something, I'm talking torches and pitchforks.
Far better, for the rich, to convince poor US folks that they're much better off than those poor folks in Nigeria, and have them either not thinking about Nigeria in any meaningful way or (even better) hating the Nigerians for their email scams and such, so that they don't have energy left to, for example, hate the major shareholders of Shell Oil Company for robbing Nigeria blind with the help of the very compliant Nigerian government, with the support of the US military that Americans get taxed heavily to pay for. Borders and divisions among those without power allow those with power to direct poor people to hate each other rather than hate those with real power.
Sure, they and their cash hop international borders all the time. But they don't want the peasants able to do the same thing, because if they do then they'll find themselves up against Wat Tylers everywhere they turn.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Sunday October 22 2017, @02:44PM
Yes, the same is also true when described in economic terms. They want 100% mobility in capital markets but none in labor markets, or else markets might clear. They like the resulting imbalance because it supplies them with coercive pricing power.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday October 22 2017, @01:04AM
100% correct. The #FakeNews #MSM never covers those alt-left protesters, I call them rioters, in Berkeley. ZERO coverage. Because it doesn't serve the Dem agenda. I know that President Obama said global warming is the biggest threat. I totally disagree. I say that the alt-left is the greatest immediate threat to our great country. I thought it was North Korea, it's not. It's the alt-left rioters who are destroying America. 🇺🇸
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @01:29AM (1 child)
So, local governments are not using local taxes to do the jobs of federal employees in rounding up "illegal immigrants".
What if those local cops did the efficient thing and rounded up the folks who are hiring the "illegal immigrants" and held those folks for the feds?
Seems so much easier.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Sunday October 22 2017, @04:09AM
You weren't paying attention, State and local governments are forbidden from enforcing immigration law, Obama took that to SCOTUS. Yes it is insane, yes the States should have raised Hell and stopped enforcing any other Federal Law they didn't particularly love in protest. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, didn't. And, as you note, the places with the worse offenders are sanctuary cities (and now States) where the locals explicitly refuse to enforce the law, even the parts they are allowed to.
Of course the SCOTUS ruling actually said that if POTUS (who happens to be a Magic Negro, obviously wouldn't apply for just ANY President ya know) declares it against Administration Policy to enforce a law the States are bound by that lawless decision, which means, in theory and after a year of lawfare, Trump could reverse most of it. Interesting he hasn't yet even started that clock ticking.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Sunday October 22 2017, @02:49PM (6 children)
Absolutely true. Therein lies a lesson for those on the left who think illegal immigration is good. It doesn't help those people to a better life, and it undercuts any bargaining power Americans might have to win a better deal from corporations. Of course that's why capital wants illegal immigration.
Personally I find the nativist motivations of those who oppose illegal immigration repugnant. But that doesn't mean the policy goal of stopping illegal immigration is wrong, for the aforementioned reasons.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Sunday October 22 2017, @03:47PM (5 children)
Hang on one second there.
The folks coming to the USA to work illegally aren't particularly irrational, stupid, or ignorant. That means they wouldn't walk hundreds of miles through treacherous terrain and find a way across the border (none of the options for that are easy or safe), all for the privilege of working some of the worst jobs in America and constantly fearing deportation, if they didn't think it would improve their lives or the lives of their kids.
Yes, their lives absolutely suck here in the USA. Their lives suck even more in Mexico (or wherever they came from: nowadays some are coming from Honduras and Guatamala and walking the entire length of Mexico to get to the USA).
The alternative policy that could fix both the problem of their life sucking where they are, and the problem of their illegal work undercutting American bargaining power: Make it easier for people from Mexico or Central America to immigrate to the US legally. That lets them in, but also prevents employers from abusing them the way they do now. The US has done that before, it could do so again if it wanted to.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Sunday October 22 2017, @05:04PM (4 children)
And maybe we could go after the bankers in the USA who undermine democracy in those countries of origin, fostering corruption and incompetence there to facilitate their looting of those countries, such that the citizens of those countries could improve things for themselves where they are. (See: Unaoil [huffingtonpost.com]).
Then, conditions wouldn't suck so much in those places and produce emigration.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Sunday October 22 2017, @06:33PM (3 children)
I'd be in favor of that policy too. One reason I was (and still am) a Sanders backer is that he more than any other candidate seemed like he would have told the bankers to go straight to hell.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 3, Funny) by Phoenix666 on Sunday October 22 2017, @07:38PM (2 children)
Dammit, Thexalon, when will we learn that Jamie Dimon has the solution? Clearly the answer is to eliminate all taxes on banks, not punish them for being successful!
Jamie Dimon for president.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Thexalon on Sunday October 22 2017, @09:12PM (1 child)
Well, we tried to #AskJPM, but they decided to not answer our questions. Of course, that might have had something to do with the questions, like:
- "I have Mortgage Fraud, Market Manipulation, Credit Card Abuse, Libor Rigging and Predatory Lending AM I DIVERSIFIED?"
- "Can I have my house back?"
- "Did you always want to be part of a vast, corrupt criminal enterprise or did you 'break bad'?"
- "What's it like working with Mexican drug cartels? Do they tip?"
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 23 2017, @02:29AM
Those are all excellent questions. Why does no one ask them?
That no one does proves how broken the first American Republic is.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by BK on Saturday October 21 2017, @10:41PM (1 child)
Trump's election is proof of the opposite. He demonstrates that sometimes, the other side wins*.
But the next guy might not do that. The mainstream D's and R's are dominated by Globalists. The R Globalists will talk the game of immigration law a bit, but don't back it with policy. Obama proved that the D Globalists won't even bother with talk.
A sufficiently imposing wall remains a barrier even when policy changes and the defenders are sent away. Walls can be scaled, tunneled under, or breached, but all of these things require a degree of skill or investment. Making that investment necessary is the point of a wall. Because someday, the other side will win.
* One of the things that makes working democracies different from the appearance only democracies in some places is the ability to allow change to happen. Since 1800, periodically, with one exception, the USA has permitted these changes. That exception? 1860.
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 21 2017, @11:02PM
If you watch the news around the word, look at how many pro-Putin candidates are showing up. Coincidence? I think not. Russia helped him win, along with voter suppression, and he did not win the popular vote.