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US leaving UN Human Rights Council -- 'a cesspool of political bias'
US Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley announced the United States is withdrawing from the UN Human Rights Council Tuesday, accusing the body of bias against US ally Israel and a failure to hold human rights abusers accountable. The move, which the Trump administration has threatened for months, came down one day after the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights slammed the separation of children from their parents at the US-Mexico border as "unconscionable."
Speaking from the State Department, where she was joined by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, Haley defended the move to withdraw from the council, saying US calls for reform were not heeded. "Human rights abusers continue to serve on, and be elected to, the council," said Haley, listing US grievances with the body. "The world's most inhumane regimes continue to escape its scrutiny, and the council continues politicizing scapegoating of countries with positive human rights records in an attempt to distract from the abusers in its ranks."
(Score: 2) by BsAtHome on Wednesday June 20 2018, @06:51PM (94 children)
Well, the US system is /not/ a "cesspool of political bias"? Maybe it is time to leave the UN too?
It seems that collaboration is overrated in the US. It looks like the Not-Invented-Here-syndrome is taking over.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:15PM (92 children)
Accusations of bias tend to say a lot more about the person making the accusation than they do about the person being accused. That's why, when parodying the ridiculousness of those sorts of claims, Stephen Colbert argued "Reality has a well-known liberal bias".
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by jmorris on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:17PM (84 children)
Except of course, as an SJW, Colbert was lying and projecting. Call him on it and he will happily demonstrate the 2nd Law as well when he doubles down on the stupid. Progressivism is mostly based on denying reality and science. It is a dark and twisted religion.
The U.N. is another horrible lie we should withdraw from and expel from our shores. Think about it logically instead of emotionally, i.e. think like a rational human instead of a Communist. In a world where the vast majority of Nation States were unfree hellholes ruled over by tyrants we built a world body based on the notion of One Nation, One Vote. By definition we knowingly built it as a Parliament of Tyrants. Then to mitigate the immediate consequences of that evil and allow it to live long enough to gain legitimacy by virtue of endless propaganda, the designers added the Security Council to ensure nothing could actually be accomplished for generations. The expected the veto deadlock to eventually end when the regressive U.S. finally made it to the "Sunny Uplands to History" but it didn't quite work out that way.
Cast them out. Build a new body on more sane ground rules.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:33PM (1 child)
You just know jmorris is always tagged when playing duck duck goose because he has all the right steps.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:40AM
"... he has all the right goose steps."
TFTFY
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:34PM (65 children)
You throw SJW around so often it is meaningless. Just like Chicken Little and The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
Maybe it's time for you to update your routine?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by digitalaudiorock on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:50PM (47 children)
SJW was meaningless the first time it was used. The far right in has gone so bat shit nuts that the have their own fucking language that doesn't make sense to people who actually think.
I never really got it at any level...even why being a warrior for "social justice" (whatever that means) would even have a bad connotation. I guess "brutal fucking dictator" is more "in" these days? Whatever.
(Score: 3, Flamebait) by jmorris on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:04PM (37 children)
1. For a meaningless term all the right people sure do instantly know when they have been insulted. It works.
2. They SJWs themselves named themselves. We just weaponized it back on them by flipping it to a term of ridicule.
3. Social Justice is a contradiction in terms. None will debate me on that because it can't be debated rationally, it intended only as an emotional appeal. And if anyone thinks otherwise I'd suggest obtaining a copy of Thomas Sowell's The Quest for Cosmic Justice and save yourself some pain. However I'm cruel enough to deliver the pain if someone just wants some.
WHO WANTS SOME?
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:33PM (1 child)
So youre a raging ball of hate. Got it, moving on.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:06PM
It's all they have.
They defend Trump's actions. They can't beat us in a debate. So, they invent a Strawman-Justice-Warrior and debate whatever nonsense they project onto it.
Notice they're never responding to something someone actually said here.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by digitalaudiorock on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:42PM
Wow...rich. The fact that you think any of that means shit says it all. I've got one: Go fuck yourself. Can you figure out who I'm insulting?
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:08PM (24 children)
Thomas Sowell? Um, jmorris, you know, he's black! What exact kind of n*********** kyke are you?
(Score: 2, Troll) by jmorris on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:03PM (23 children)
So? There is no inconsistency between rejecting blank slate "every racial group (which doesn't even exist according to $current_year doctrine... until you aren't meeting your non-existent hiring quota) is exactly the same as every other in every statistically meaningful way" idiocy and recognizing excellence, which is rare in every population, wherever it occurs. You confuse race realism with racism. Racism is a made up silly word that didn't even exist a few short decades ago. It does sadden me that Dr. Sowell has yet to abandon the NeverTrump dead end and get on board the MAGA train, but he will get there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:43PM (19 children)
That's rich.
(Score: 3, Informative) by jmorris on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:23AM (17 children)
Too bad history agrees with me.
The Ugly, Fascinating History Of The Word 'Racism' [npr.org] I assume you trust NPR, right? Guy who coined the word sounds like a total asshole.
Or Chart: frequency of the word "Racism" in the NYT over time
Thanks for playing, better luck next time.
p.s. Google is biased and full of bullshit but still useful to look things up before you post your ignorance to the world.
(Score: 4, Informative) by jmorris on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:24AM
Crap, something is hosed in the second link. Trying again with preview!
Chart: Frequency of the word racism in the New York Times [reddit.com]
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:26AM (8 children)
God I love how often your own citations backfire on you.
"Racism is a made up silly word that didn't even exist a few short decades ago"
So a few short decades does not make a century, and every single word humanity uses is "made up". You are a jackass, you are wrong, and "race realism"? Jesus, just admit your a bigoted piece of shit and maybe you can begin reconstructing your psyche.
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by jmorris on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:41AM
The first ref was just to absolutely nail down the first use of the word. Notice from the second link that it was as quickly forgotten after that first utterance and didn't appear at all until around WWII and wasn't in common usage until the "Cultural Revolution" in the 1960's. That makes it a pretty new word to be the basis for our current State Religion.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:10AM (6 children)
Ten or twelve decades are indeed just a few short decades. As opposed to 200 decades ago, when the Romans still held power. Is there some power in the word century for you?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:15AM
Yes, when someone makes an assertion about some modern liberal conspiracy to use the word "racist" as some political tool for *reasons* and totally fails on the timeline.
I dont need to insult your intelligence though, you do a good enough job on your own.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:24AM (4 children)
I am only here to down-mod both the despicable jmorris, and the deplorable Runaway. They both know why. They are both products of the lack of choice by women, or that is to say, they are missed abortions. But that is pretty obvious from their posting. I sometimes think, that if jmorris, or Runaway, either of them, really, could develop the capacity for reason, you know, rational thought, and could go from accepted factes about the world, to the premise that one ought nought have sex outside one's own species? A bridge too far?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:13PM (3 children)
https://funnyjunk.com/Dr+trumps+butthurt+salve+and+cream/funny-pictures/6152734/ [funnyjunk.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:09PM (2 children)
I don't see any real butthurt going on here except from you. All the comments by jmorris and runaway on this thread have been pretty low quality and boil down to unsupported wailing about reality.
MUH OPPRESSIONZ! lawl, fookin twats
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday June 22 2018, @01:19AM (1 child)
What you see doesn't match up to reality.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday June 23 2018, @10:22PM
Sometimes, Runaway, the reality you think you are in is not the actual reality that is real all by itself.
(Score: 2, Redundant) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:08AM (4 children)
So, Pratt, who invented the term "racism" was a genocidal sumbitch? In his world view, all Indian cultures had to be stamped out. Those Indians who conformed to white man's ways were permitted to live, whole those who refused were to be killed off. "Kill the Indian, save the man." Isn't that special?
So, liberals have embraced a term created by a genocidal monster, and made it their own. Again.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by jmorris on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:41AM (3 children)
Notice how even the NPR story has to praise him for being "Progressive?" Because in the end, the Government schools we were all forced into are built on the exact same "Progressive" model. To stamp out our "wrong" culture and replace it with their "Progressive" one. Scratch a Democrat, find a totalitarian. Every. Time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:22AM (2 children)
Scratch a RWNJ and find green blood, you fuckers ain't human!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:15PM (1 child)
You stupid shit, that's not blood, that's chlorophyll. Solar power. It's the future.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:01PM
Ah that makes sense, I always did think of jmorris as a bit of a vegetable.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:14AM
Yeah, right, for certain values of 'agree'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:45AM
Wow...Just how does that Kool-Aid taste ,jm? Starting to feel sick now?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:10AM
This was richer:
Race realism is what they're calling it now?
Of course, I'll bet the idea that an increasing number of people in the world cannot fit into neat, mutually exclusive racialist boxes like "white", "black", "Asian", "Muslim", "Mexican" etc just freaks jmorris the fuck out. ("Muslim" and "Mexican" in particular, in typical authoritarian fashion, are races when it is convenient and not when inconvenient, as demonstrated by both alt-right and ctrl-left authoritarian leaders.)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:10PM (2 children)
"SJW" is an admission that you can't beat us in a debate. You can't counter anything we've actually said so you invent an easier opponent.
There is no inconsistency between rejecting blank slate "every racial group (which doesn't even exist according to $current_year doctrine... until you aren't meeting your non-existent hiring quota) is exactly the same as every other in every statistically meaningful way"
Here's a great example. Show me were anyone on this site has EVER said that.
(Score: 2) by digitalaudiorock on Thursday June 21 2018, @07:51PM (1 child)
Today i went back and read/re-read all the crap these guys have posted. Frankly I got sick and fucking tired of it yesterday. It's a little beyond amazing.
So I guess now they're "enlightened" us to what their SJW nonsense refers to(?). Apparently it's some "Animal Farm"-ish reference because all minorities think they're "more equal" than everyone else, and that they've got it so good because all us libtards are fighting to make that a reality...or something. Holy fuck me with a stick. It makes even less sense with the explanation. It's frankly scary that anyone believes any of this shit on any level...but I guess you have to to maintain the required anger level of this group.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @11:58PM
It's real when it costs [spectator.co.uk]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:37PM (1 child)
You've clearly become emotionally compromised. Please back away from the keyboard while the rest of us have a rational discussion.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:11AM
Assertion in the need of a proof. In the respect of 'become', the rest is self evident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:04AM (6 children)
Thomas Sowell?!
The man is an economist for christ's sake! And he's a typical Reagan/Thatcher neo-liberal! You think he's a hero for playing along to get along? There's another name for that!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:16AM (5 children)
Yes, there is, it's "society". Bucking the system that everyone but you agrees upon is the very definition of anti-social.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:03AM
Whow...now are you actually saying that jm and all the followers of Der Führer Trump, who are actually bucking the system that most people in this country and the world agree on are anti-social?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:33PM (3 children)
A society led and supported by racist fascists has no right to exist.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:19PM (2 children)
Agreed. So, what do you propose? That we shoot everyone who identifies as, and associates with Antifa?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:18PM
It is stupid commentary such as yours that makes it hard to have real discussions. Conservative types want to ignore that problems with racism we have in the US, they want to ignore the systemic problems created by racist policies, and they don't want to be held responsible in any way for anything.
Big giant babies who wouldn't know personal responsibility if it smacked them upside the head.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @08:50PM
Trump and our corrupt congress are Antifa?! Not much of a disguise...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by unauthorized on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:41PM (5 children)
If you truly think that, then you live in a thought bubble. Opposition to far left radical progressivist moral authoritarians comes from every side except radical progressivist havens. SJW nutjobs exist, and I have ample evidence for it, but people of your persuasion always seem to have the same "it's a fringe case" attitude and dismiss evidence regardless of how much of it there is, whilst never seeming to afford the same courtesy to people who disagree with you.
One alt righter goes postal? See, they are all unhinged lunatics!
One Marxist professor tweets about wanting white genocide? Fringe case, fringe case, shut up you neo-nazi racist sexist homophobe bigot!
This is not a healthy attitude. Tribalism and bias do not produce ideas which are strongly consilient with reality. Bias exists to help us ensure we don't get eaten by predators, but it's woefully maladaptive when it comes to examining large complex systems such as human societies.
Then again, that might just my personal bias as someone who tries their darnest to combat their personal biases at every step.
It has bad connotations because of SJWs. It's very much like national socialism or communism in that sense, it's not the term in purely descriptive capacity by itself, but the people who it describes that are bad. You can commit injustice in the name of benign ideas.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:47PM (3 children)
No, it doesn't. Now go away, you unauthorized racist misogynist homophiliac!
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:03AM (2 children)
Hey, that's an insult to homophiliacs.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:31AM (1 child)
Not to mentions the Homophonophiliacs, of whom we have far too many here on SolylentNews. Let me say, exampla gratia, "loose" or let me refer to the current "precedent". And a bit of pedantry in the defense of language, against the forces of idiotic uneducated and only marginally functionally literate white stupidity. Gawd, anyone who calls themselves "white" is by definition stupid. Stupid white people. Stupid for thinking they are white, when they are not. And more for thinking they are. There is no such thing as "white", it is only a back-formation by slavers to mean "not-slaves". So I think it is time to enslave the whites, give them iPhones, and turn them over to their corporate masters. Stupid white people.
(Score: 3, Touché) by melikamp on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:27PM
That's like saying, it's time to sip some tea, to drink tea, and get on with the tea drinking.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by cubancigar11 on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:24AM
I will further go ahead and tell you why it I consider it a bad term in itself. There is no such thing as "social" justice. There is only individual justice. There is a body to deliver justice, created over thousands of years that is called Judiciary. It deals justice to the individual(s), or at least that is how it is supposed to work. When it doesn't, that is corruption.
Do poor people have bigger trouble than richer people in climbing the social ladder? Of course! A rich man can invest 0.1% of his wealth and become richer but a poor man cannot invest 0.1% of his wealth otherwise what will he eat? This is a reality. And as much as some people might want to claim, it is not fair. But fair is not judicious. An unfair system, an existing bias, needs to pointed out and a solution devised so that it doesn't occur again. Justice is done ONCE, and then it is done. They are fundamentally different.
This is why "social justice" is by default on the far left. It is about extracting revenge, and once it has done that, its progenitors need to find some other social injustice to continue their successful enterprise.
PS: And then add "warrior" into it, which is a politically correct word for mindless-single-purpose-drone.
(Score: 2) by SanityCheck on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:27AM (2 children)
We had to call them something, because they didn't like being called faggots.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:12AM
We must assume you are talking about RWNJs.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:23PM
ROFLMAO - it's not so much that they didn't like being called faggots, but the kindling refused to catch fire until we stopped appropriating their name.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by NewNic on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:44PM (16 children)
I'm don't understand why they think it's an insult.
What's wrong with social justice? What's wrong with wanting a more just society?
They (jmorris and people who think like him) are so enamoured of the super-wealthy that they can't see that they are merely the useful idiots in the plans made by the Mercers, Koch Brothers, etc.. Foolishly, jmorris and his like don't want a more fair society, because the have the ridiculous, naive, idiotic notion that they might one day join the ranks of the super-rich.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 3, Insightful) by digitalaudiorock on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:50PM (2 children)
My only guess is that there's some sort of "black lives matter" implication in the "social justice" part or the like...shit that only makes "sense" to the nudge-nudge-wink-wink-I'm-bigot-like-you crowd.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:09PM
So, it's a race thing? Checks out.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:52PM
Justice means we treat people the same (hopefully well) without regard to race, sex, ethnicity, etc.
Social Justice means that, as in Animal Farm, some are "more equal" than others. Social Justice establishes a victimhood ranking. You get treated based on your ranking. It's kind of like the system North Korea uses. People with supposed "privilege" (less ability to claim victimhood) get special perks. Those perks include job interviews, scholarships, promotions, a better progressive stack position, etc.
For those confused by that last one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_stack [wikipedia.org]
By being discriminatory, Social Justice breeds resentment. It actually cases hatred toward the favored people. It is fundamentally divisive.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:44PM
What's wrong with "social justice" is when it becomes a newspeak term appropriated by right-wing authoritarians.
I think a more appropriate term to describe the pseudo-left right-wing authoritarianism that gave rise to the alt-right is the ctrl-left. The ctrl-left is in favor of segregation (black only dorms), xenophobia (the "cultural appropriation" crowd), and many other right-wing ideas.
I am not even saying this from original gewg_'s usual complaint about how people in the USA talk about political left and right. The ctrl-left is an authoritarian movement.
Something has gone horrifically wrong with (neo)liberals in the USA. I expect RWA bullshit out of R teamers. D teamers need to seriously look in the mirror and contemplate how we turn this ship around.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:17AM (5 children)
The two words are good words. And, in fact, as a standalone phrase, "social justice" would seem to be a worthy goal. Unfortunately, the SJW's aren't interested in genuine social justice. As a class, they hate hetero Christian white males. They want to advance all other people over those hetero Christian white males, and beat those evil whites into the ground.
See their actions, forget about their words.
A bunch of deplorable white people hold a white supremacy rally, and Antifa shows up to start a violent protest. The media takes Antifa's side because WHITE!! There is no real examination of facts, all they care about is white on one side, black on the other, so obviously Antifa is in the right.
That is what SJW is all about. Beat down the white man.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:32AM (2 children)
Who you calling white, you fucking Slav! Polacks are not white, they are, well, Slavic, inferior, and the superior race has a right to replace them, in Poland, as well as in parts of Arkanfuckingsaw. Runaway, you race traitor! If only I could punch you in the face myself, as fellow Slav, to make you feel the depth of your betrayal. Oh, and I am sending some Bosniam Muslims to your house. Please give them the proper hospitality, befor they slit your throat and rape your sheep. Shalom, motherfucker!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:27PM (1 child)
You're right in one instance, Aristarchus. I'm not "white" enough to join any WASP clubs. 100 years ago, my grandpa wasn't white enough to buy property in Hickory Township, Lawrence County, Pennsylvania.
But, you're also mistaken. I have very few superiors. If you think you've met one, you should introduce us. I'll figure out very quickly whether he/she is superior.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:24PM
Just by the sheer amount of bullshit you spew on here there are a lot of people superior to yourself. At least it seems like you're trying, but so often you regress into blithering RWNJ territory.
(Score: 1) by oldmac31310 on Friday June 22 2018, @02:33PM (1 child)
You are such an arsehole.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday June 22 2018, @02:43PM
You wasted time telling me that? Of course, I'm the asocial asshole. So - is there any particular part of my post that you find objectionable? Are you capable of making a counterpoint? Please, don't waste your time, or mine, with inanities such as this.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:19AM
What's wrong with social justice? It's a bullshit phrase pulled out when you want something to sound like it's a good thing because it has the word "justice" in it when it is in fact the exact opposite of actual justice.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Offtopic) by khallow on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:08AM (4 children)
What's wrong with justice that one has to add an adjective like "social" to it?
"Social" is Orwellian in how it perverts the meaning of words. Social justice isn't justice. The social contract is not a contract. Social awareness is not awareness. Social security isn't security.
Moving on:
And here's an example. You couldn't even use the phrase in your very next paragraph. It had already lost its utility. You instead spoke of justice instead of social justice.
Because obviously, only people who are suffering from super-wealthy adulation would ever disagree with you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:22AM (3 children)
Yeah...what's wrong with plain old Justice? Why are you so afraid of real justice? Is it because in a just world you would have to prove your worth?
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:36AM (2 children)
Well, the obvious rebuttal is, um, well, OK, there is no obvious rebuttal to Social Justice. Unless it is Social Injustice. But the US tried that before, and, well, black lives matter? Are you a fcking racist, khallow? Or just a victim of white priviledge? In either case, stand down you moron.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @09:02AM
Self rebuttal if you were paying attention.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday June 21 2018, @11:33AM
(Score: 4, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:52PM
Wow! I mean, yeah, it's pure -1 Flamebait.
But, on the other hand, if you want to read an example of the mind-numbing level of projection conservatives are willing to engage in it's +1 Informative.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:48PM (14 children)
There are 195 countries in the world. Of those:
- 7 are absolute monarchies.
- 9 have monarchs with substantial powers that they can and do exercise.
- 3 are theocracies.
- 7 are 1-party rule, usually Communist.
The remaining 169 nations of the world are at least nominally some kind of electoral system. How free the elections are is often a matter of debate, and the answer of whether the election was "free and fair" usually has to do with whether the person or organization making that determination likes the outcome of that election.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 4, Touché) by aristarchus on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:11PM (1 child)
There goes that SJW reality again, with its "facts" and well-known liberal bias! Oh, the Huge Manatee!
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:40PM
Hey now, Trump is only medium sized for a manatee.
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:20PM (5 children)
You really want to go there? You really want to say there are only twenty-six unfree shitholes? Since I can probably pull more than that from only the OIC list, mind if I just point and laugh at you instead of expending the effort to compile a listing? Then I can point at laugh at you again for your inability to comprehend English.
When the U.N. was designed and founded it was designed to give unfree hellholes the majority of the votes, i.e. to be a Parliament of Tyrants, Legion of Doom, League of Villains, whatever you want to call it. Little has changed since as most of the voting membership are what could be called "Evil." Most of what the U.N. does is Evil, from the rape and pillage that goes on under the cloak of the blue helmets in war torn countries to the rampant graft and corruption that is the hallmark of every single U.N. Agency.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:11AM (2 children)
"Show us on the doll, jmorris, where the evil UN touched you. It's OK, this is a safe space."
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @09:02AM (1 child)
/|\
/ | \
|
---> /%\
/ \
/ \
(Score: 3, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:32PM
I can't get all the coffee off of my monitor. Would you mind wiping from your side? :^)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:28AM (1 child)
Kinda like the United States, where small population shitholes of states get more say per capita in elections for National office than the real producing states with larger populations.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:35PM
Define "real producing states" for us. Should we take that to mean you perform more abortions? More murders? More scandals? More corruption? Or, just that your phat broads drop more babies (mostly on their heads)? Or, maybe you mean those states produce more idiots like yourself?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:19AM (2 children)
Your numbers come from the 1940's, or from today? Today's world is quite different from the world of the '40's.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:31AM (1 child)
Your sig is not true, the primitive life forms on Earth are called Republicans.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:33PM
Yeah - but you can't even make a sig. Inferior beyatch!!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:38AM (2 children)
Direct elections are the most unfree of all, unless everyone thinks the same, they are usually tyrannies of majority. Combined with the tribal mentality the world over (which I don't necessarily disagree with) you have a recipe for corruption and civil war. This leads to hell-hole status.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday June 21 2018, @11:39AM (1 child)
The obvious counterexample being the situation where only one person has a vote.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:36PM
Well - if I must - I suppose that I can appoint the next president. But, first you have to pass a law that she can't reject the appointment.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by legont on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:59PM (5 children)
Truth (about reality or whatever) is what experts collectively believe is so. Most experts are currently liberal.
Absolute truth have died with Greeks.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Thursday June 21 2018, @11:54AM (4 children)
And yet when one looks [oxforddictionaries.com] at definitions of reality:
Then there's the poetic quote of Philip K. Dick:
In other words, reality is an absolute trait, not necessarily of truth. And if a bunch of experts happen to have opinions which don't match the system they're applying those opinions to, I side with the system.
(Score: 2) by legont on Friday June 22 2018, @05:27AM (3 children)
Unfortunately, even our expert scientists were not able to discovery the version of reality you described. Just think about an |observer> (changes reality) concept or multiverse (all possible realities exist simultaneously) as rather limited examples.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday June 22 2018, @12:01PM (2 children)
Neither precludes absolutes. For example, you're not going to observe observers or universes who/which conflict with your observations. That allows for the creation of a network of consistent observers/universes. The structure of that network would thus be the absolutes of the overall universe in question.
(Score: 2) by legont on Friday June 22 2018, @08:36PM (1 child)
Yep, and most of the said observers would be liberals.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday June 23 2018, @02:14AM
Given that most such observers would be nonsentient and possibly purely virtual, I agree with your statement.
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:57PM
I hate Trump and this administration at least as much as the next person, but your statement is completely unfair. If I accuse Fox News of bias, does that automatically say more about me than it does about Fox News? Really?
Don't get me wrong, I love the Colbert quote.
(Score: 2) by Revek on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:02AM
If you haven't noticed yet. Trump and his like always accuse other of what they want and do. Deep State? I'm betting they want that for themselves so they accuse the other side of the same thing. Its not like democrats are any different. They just hide it behind other things. Our problem is the two party system.
This page was generated by a Swarm of Roaming Elephants
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 20 2018, @06:53PM (72 children)
The US has not been in any kind of position to lecture anybody on human rights for a very very long time (if ever). For a long time, the US government has:
- imprisoned the largest number of people on Earth, both per capita and in total numbers
- executed more people than all countries other than China, Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia
- ran a torture training facility for allied Latin American countries
- organized a network of internationally-based torture facilities in nations such as Egypt, Jordan, Afghanistan, and Iraq
- tortured people at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and several other facilities
- regularly hit civilians in dozens of countries with drone strikes and other military attacks
- bombed at least 1 hospital, and never even apologized
And that's just the stuff the US does itself. When you look at who the US government allies itself with, and who it protects diplomatically, the record gets even worse.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:34PM
More evidence from the original gewg_: UN Report: USA is a "Shithole Country" [soylentnews.org] sourcing Common Dreams and Counterpunch.
wswswswsws ran an article today about wealth stratification [wsws.org]. It concludes (in usual wswswswswsws style):
(Score: 5, Informative) by digitalaudiorock on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:40PM (12 children)
And to take it a step further, we now have a president who's totally enamored with (even jealous of) the worst dictators and tyrants in the world...Putin, Kim Jung Un, Duterte, Xi Jinping and his now-infinite term etc, etc. I wish that was just some liberal spin, but he keeps telling us directly [thehill.com] in increasing unambiguous terms. How are there Americans who aren't bothered by this?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:56PM (8 children)
Those Americans are idiots fueled by hatred against elitist liberals. It is insane how their hatred has blinded them to the trumpster fire burning right in front of them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:00AM (7 children)
Majority rule is the real cause. It expresses both apathy and antipathy. We shouldn't let racist idiots decide our fate.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:29AM (6 children)
Well in this case it is minority rule, our election system is just fubar.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:59AM (5 children)
Well in this case it is minority rule...
No, it is not. Over 98% vote for republican/democrat. That's a pretty big majority.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:24AM (2 children)
You're begging the question.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:39AM
No, you are questioning the begging. http://begthequestion.info/ [begthequestion.info]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:23PM
What question? There is no question. The voters are responsible for the people they elect into power. And they are just in denial of majority rule's dirty little secret.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:42PM (1 child)
The point was that a minority of the total US population chose Trump. Same for the other candidates since we have such low voter turnout. Also, Trump lost the popular vote so in this case it is REALLY a minority that chose our current path.
Yes that does give me a little more hope.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @07:04PM
The point was that a minority of the total US population chose Trump.
Turnout is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the majority doesn't resist. It only indicates consent.
(Score: 5, Informative) by NewNic on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:48PM (2 children)
Jmorris and others are the middle person in this GIF:
https://g.redditmedia.com/Fft-cfzWKoM7E-owlBYKNEXnXn3HuYqqLf3PXq6FK6M.gif?fm=mp4&mp4-fragmented=false&s=5ecd91616cc343e73b65e18448e5d82a [redditmedia.com]
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:25AM
That was not a gif, but I found the original image. 6 MB in the original gif, to 900 KB for the mp4. Which one too keep? I think the gif, because animated gifs are a class of their own.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:38AM
+_1 Insightful. If only I had mod points...
(Score: 5, Informative) by edIII on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:59PM (29 children)
I can't believe you overlooked that we are now running concentration camps for children torn away from their parents. This draws a rather scary parallel to history. Jewish children were ripped from their mothers, fathers, and grandparents and violently separated too. Also incarcerated via metal fencing.
Screaming crying children, chain link fences for walls, armed guards, concrete floors (ex Wallmart buildings), and the complete lack of care for their mental well being. Instead of simply stopping, we blame the parents for bringing them to us to be tortured. Yes, tearing a 3 year old away from mom in a violent scary fashion, and not reuniting them for months, or weeks, is torturing the small child. Not to mention the mothers.
To top it off, all of these mothers coming from El Salvador, Honduros, etc. are escaping real violence in their own countries. Last time I checked we were supposedly the kind of people that offered sanctuary to people in those conditions.
I believe as of this morning, not even a sitting US Senator can visit the facilities unannounced, or take pictures of what they see, or interact with any of the children. If they want to visit, it's a TWO WEEK notice so the facility can hide abuses. That's utterly inexcusable as Senators and Congressmen are theoretically our first line of defense against a corrupt government. I'm assuming then it's next to impossible for any members of the press to access the facility.
So now we strip children from their mothers, incarcerate them separately, and forcibly prevent any kind of the typical oversight that is supposed to exist. Even from a US Senator. That is amazing. I wonder if members of the German legislature were banned from visiting or knowing about the concentration camps too?
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:05PM (1 child)
I left that part out for 2 reasons:
1. Everything I had mentioned has been going on for much longer than that policy. It's a lot easier to look at that and claim it's either Democratic fake news, or just Donald Trump's fault, depending on which party you usually support.
2. As bad as that is, I consider the longtime US policies in favor of torture and death to be far worse. For instance, these concentration camps, as horrible as they are, aren't Gitmo and aren't the carpet-bombing of Cambodia.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:32PM
That policy is not new, either. It is a continuation of what previous administrations have done. I remember watching an expose of people obama was holding like that, and was apalled then. But the MSM didn't pick it up and progressives largely turned a blind eye because he was "our" guy.
Looking back further, we threw ethnic Japanese into actual concentration camps at Manzanar and other places for the crime of having the wrong ancestry, not for hopping borders. That earned the US the scorn you're heaping on it now for this.
Reviling this behavior is right, blaming it all on Trump is not.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:23PM
There is at least one big difference that you are overlooking.
In ~1940s Europe, those people were either legal residents who just wanted to live their lives or wanted to leave the country of their residence.
In the current situation, these people are trying to illegally enter another country.
Characterizing what is happening now as "concentration camps" is ridiculous hyperbole.
(Score: 0, Troll) by jmorris on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:34PM (1 child)
1. Most of the kids weren't "ripped from their parents". Many are unrelated being used as human shields and for trafficking. Once we established the rule that having a child in toe would let you skip detention the invaders adapted to that change in the rules.
2. They can be reunited any time they want. Simply waive their right to stay while awaiting a hearing and I'm pretty sure ICE would be more than happy to reunite them all in their home country. The family that is deported together stays together.
3. Who really cares anyway? Anyone else breaks the law they kinda expect to be separated from their children. We don't imprison children. Some of the detention facilities are getting overloaded but the idea still holds that we imprison the criminal parent but merely detain minor children because we don't have anything else we can do with them at the moment. They have no relatives we can release them to here and the courts won't let us send them back. Or do you now want to stuff children in prison with their parents as a new general rule? Otherwise admit your actual goal is to return to "catch and release" and that you are an open borders globalist who should not be considered when Americans deliberate their immigration laws and the enforcement thereof.
4. But really, I should not have even bothered posting anything but the derisive dismissal you deserve:
WOMP! WOMP!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:16PM
You keep repeating that mantra but it doesn't make it so. You, jmorris, are no George Constanta.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by unauthorized on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:04AM (18 children)
Their parents commited a crime and were imprisoned for it. I'm really sorry for those kids, but you don't get a free pass for commiting crimes just because you have children. Blame their irresponsible parents, not the system of law.
If you don't like the law, work to change it instead of trying to suppress enforcement through emotionally blackmailing your fellow citizens.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:27AM (3 children)
Hash: SHA256
oh, ok, so next time you are accused (not yet convicted in court) of a crime, or even convicted, you won't mind if we can take YOUR 7YO and put her in a cement floor cage in a concentration camp on Texas border, behind armed guards, with no access to relatives, and with zero accountability to the people, which includes both the press and the sitting congress-critters? are you actually saying that it's ok for the state to torture and abuse children whenever their parents are accused of the crime? hahahahahaha.... <tear wipe /> oh my, by your logic, it's ok... nay, JUST for you to torture a small child as long as you can make an argument, however flimsy, that it's someone else's fault the child was brought to you against the law? i am glad we are getting it all out in the open, keep talking. usa could easily afford to give every single one of these children a hotel room and a personal shrink while they are waiting. the reason nothing of the kind is being done is that donnie and his little fascist cockblowers find it not cruel enough. they have a better use for public money in mind: just transfer it all to golden suxx and cock brothers. they are already rich, so they clearly deserved it, in the eyes of man and god alike. ~ pseudonymous 0x9932FE2729B1D963
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(Score: 2) by unauthorized on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:21AM (2 children)
Hello there Mrs Newman [youtube.com].
I didn't say that any method of enforcing the law is justified. I didn't even say that any law is justified.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:59AM (1 child)
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"I didn't say that any method of enforcing the law is justified." -- that's right, you didn't. you said -- "Their parents committed a crime and were imprisoned for it. I'm really sorry for those kids, but you don't get a free pass for committing crimes just because you have children. Blame their irresponsible parents, not the system of law." -- in that sentence, "their" refers to the specific asylum seekers and other people swept up on the border by donnie's ice nazis, and therefore "those kids" must be in reference to little children in a cement floor cage in a concentration camp on Texas border, behind armed guards, with no access to relatives, and with zero accountability to the people, which includes both the press and the sitting congress-critters. and then you said -- "Blame their irresponsible parents" -- blame for what? for the kids being tortured as we type? do you not believe these kids are being tortured? even though you can see these children held in conditions amounting to torture in the photos released by the torturers themselves? i never claimed you thought ANY method of enforcing the law is justified, i merely understood what you were saying as the claim that torturing these specific 7yo children was justified because their parents currently stand accused of breaking the law. ...or are you trying to retract some part your original statement?
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(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:47AM
Where were the parents when caught? Did they have a stamped passport from a visa waiver country or a visa if they didn't come from one of those? If "no" it's a pretty open and shut case.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:42AM (3 children)
Parent comment presents the belief that the criminal is responsible for all of the repercussions of enforcement actions by the state.
This is a profoundly authoritarian idea.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:29AM (2 children)
Alright. So, Jimmy Dimbulb has a wife and kids. Jimmy can't hold a job, for whatever reason. His kids are hungry. He comes to YOUR HOUSE, and ransacks it for valuables. You arrive home while he is there, and Jimmy attacks you, demanding more money. You defend yourself, and Jimmy ends up dead. Since you were upholding the law by defending your own life - ARE YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR JIMMY'S KID'S FUTURE WELLBEING??????
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:44AM
Triggered!
(Score: 2) by edIII on Sunday June 24 2018, @06:43PM
Awkward as fuck analogy for what I don't know. I'm guessing it's that whole child-as-a-shield hypothetical that people keep trotting out.
However, to answer your question directly, YES. You, as part of society, are now responsible for the children. To say otherwise, is to literally put it in God's hands. Good Samaritans will step up, the religious in society will absolve you, or they just meek out a living as street urchins stealing from your pockets.
The children are future citizens (you did not say Jimmy was an illegal), and it makes good sense to invest in their future. That's biologically speaking quite imperative in the early years of life, otherwise the children end up mentally deficient. You would want to put them in an orphanage, or some facility like it.
If you think about it, you'll see the answer is yes too. You're not a monster.
As for the topic at hand, it's a cruelty to separate the children. They've stopped doing that are now incarcerating the children with the parents. Which is much, much, much, better. What you do is simple. Contact their government and verify, to the extent you can, the relationship with the child. If they're a criminal using the child as a shield, then we incarcerate their ass for 10 years because they trafficked a child across borders. We return the child to the government they came from, by plane or whatever. Expedite it.
If it really is a parent and child that are here for asylum, then process them like it. So what if they crossed illegally. It's the same outcome, that makes sense in all situations. Keep the family together, evaluate the asylum, and either grant them citizenship or send them back. Put yourself in their shoes. I'm not particularly inclined to punish them because they didn't make it to an official processing center with staff. BP picks them up and gives them a ride. Big deal. Not going to hold it against a woman and child. I don't know why the asylum decision can take a few years (sounds ridiculous to me), but they have wildly successful programs with private prisons keeping track of these families. It's like parole and they check in regularly. That is much better than the alternative, and they're at least paying sales taxes and possibly contributing to the economy positively. There are examples of such families making small businesses that thrive while they await a decision. It's not all criminals and people that have no hope of integrating.
My biggest issue is what we are doing to the children. It doesn't matter how, or why, the child got to us. All that matters is that they did, and as a people, I think we would want to be kind and nurturing to all children. Especially our own right? If it really is the mother, than it is a family.
I'm not advocating open borders either, just that we process the children with the family. Even if that means internment camps, or being housed on a military base. The latter being a really good idea. The children can play out in the sun safely, they're obviously well protected and provided for. Sounds like good hospitality to me while we decide if they can stay, or we send them back.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by bobthecimmerian on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:12AM (8 children)
The problem with your logic is that it punishes the wrong people: the kids. This is no different from the conservative plans to cut food stamps and welfare and Medicaid because families that can't afford to have children shouldn't have children. Again, you're punishing the wrong people. And if anything, those undernourished, neglected kids are more likely to grow up with problems in education, employment, and criminal activity. So "saving money" actually costs us all money. But that's irrelevant, the real problem is that punishing children for the sins of the parent is something an asshole like the Old Testament God would do.
So I don't give a fuck what the parents were thinking when they brought their kids to the US. It's utterly irrelevant to this discussion. What ICE/BP are doing is wrong, period, end of story, I don't care if Nazis (Hello Godwin) were bringing their own children into the country. Argument over.
But further, how shitty must parts of Central and South America be if people think it's better to be criminals in the US than citizens at home? My ancestors left Poland and Ireland because, at the time, they were hellholes and while it technically was legal to enter the US at the time it wouldn't have mattered. "Starve to death at home or enter the US illegally... hmm.... decisions, decisions..." We're the richest country in the history of humanity with 585 billionaires and we can't fucking afford a few million immigrants? Fuck ICE, Fuck BP, and Fuck EVERYBODY that supports them.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by unauthorized on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:09AM (5 children)
I'm not in favor of the exact way the US border authorities are handling this situation, but I am in favor of enforcing the law.
Yes, that means separating children from their parents, and yes, it sucks that it comes to it, but there is no better way to handle this. The only other possible solutions is imprisoning innocent children which is obviously unjust or absolving their parents, which produces lawlessness that is ultimately worse for everyone, including those very children.
I'm from a really shitty Eastern European country called Bulgaria, and I fully understand the desire to move to a better place, but I don't see how that makes it okay for me to invade your country through illegal means. Campaign to change immigration laws you disagree with the current situation, that is how democracies should work. Even better, campaign to form development partnership programs with underdeveloped countries if you actually care enough to resolve the underlying problems and improve the lot of people in those countries. Unregulated immigration is not the answer, it just creates more problems than it solves. The road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @08:01AM (2 children)
So, your defense is that you are merely a useful idiot? You disagree with how the law is enforced, but you still think that it should be enforced?
Uhm, yes there is. How about not putting them in fucking concentration camps? How about putting up daycare facilities, nurseries or even schools?
It doesn't. There's another reason for that: the US system requires one to enter the country illegally before applying for asylum. From USCIS [uscis.gov] itself (emphasis mine):
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @09:37AM
Entering the country illegally will get you arrested, don't like it -- get a fucking visa!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday June 22 2018, @12:34PM
US embassies and military bases would also count. And note the next line after the one you quoted:
Law that encourages law breaking is exciting stuff.
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:03PM (1 child)
Again, if "enforcing the law" means taking a three year old from his or her parents, the law is fucking wrong and the only right thing to do is refuse. It's been said a million times before, but it's worth repeating: "I was only following orders" and "I was only obeying the law" were the same defenses used by members of the Gestapo when they were on trial for crimes against humanity after World War 2.
I'm not saying it's okay for people in Honduras, El Salvador, and so forth to come into the US illegally. You skipped right over what I said: it doesn't fucking matter what the parents did, you cannot harm the kids because their parents broke the law.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday June 22 2018, @12:21PM
There isn't a place in the world that would let a murderer or embezzler go because it would "harm the kids". So yes, it does matter what the parents did.
What's missing here is that the immigration laws in question are being enforced here in a particularly inhumane way. One doesn't need to separate kids from parents for long periods in order to enforce immigration law. It's just a bit of propaganda theater for would-be voters to show that Trump (and/or the ICE) cares about enforcing the law.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by hemocyanin on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:54AM (1 child)
Let's all be honest for a second -- and I say this as a person who thinks Trump is a moron and a dick and who did not vote for him -- but there is NOTHING he can do without a torrent of criticism coming down on him. If he holds the kids while their parents are going through deportation hearings, everyone flips out. If he put them on a plane and sent them to their home country while their parents are going through deportation hearings, everyone would flip out. If he did what HRC did with illegal immigrant children (deport them: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-child-migrants_us_55d4a5c5e4b055a6dab24c2f [huffingtonpost.com] ), the press would flip out. If Obama had held meetings with Un, the press would have called him Jesus Christ.
Honestly, just admit that isn't about any single policy or group of policies Trump endorses (because Democrats endorse the same shit), this whole "crisis" exists just because you don't like him personally. Which I get. But quit being deceitful little punks about it.
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:17PM
Did you read the link you sent? Hillary said we should deport them, she didn't actually deport any. And I'm not holding up her or Obama as heroes. The only way either of them look remotely adequate is in comparison to Donald Trump. They supported torture, unlawful surveillance, drone attacks on Americans, and the big banks in the financial crisis. They supported the War on Drugs. They stand with Disney-loving lawmakers and all of the absurd intellectual property laws that make sharing a song or a film online a bigger crime than shoplifting the best laptop from a Best Buy. I hate them.
But they still look like heroes next to Trump. "Go after the terrorists' families." I would support that if it did something other than serve to recruit more terrorists, but it wouldn't. Unless you plan to end humanity with World War 3, every televised six year old Arab that was blown to bits probably means fifty more people sign up with ISIS or Al Queda. "I would do more than waterboarding." "90 day plan to defeat ISIS." How did that work out for you? "Replace Obamacare with something much better." I'm still waiting. The Republicans have had eight years now to make something better than Obamacare, and it's clear they have no idea and no interest in any health care program other than "fuck everybody that isn't rich". "Obama spends too much time golfing, when I'm President I will be too busy getting things done to golf." And then he takes more vacations than Obama did. "Bring back coal power" when the biggest reason coal power in the US is dying is that American natural gas power is replacing it. The US economy has been growing since 2009, but even though the number of jobs keep increasing almost 100% of the increase in inflation-adjusted income has gone to the wealthiest 1%. So what do the President and Republicans in Congress do? The people that rode into office screaming that the Democrats spend too much money started spending even more money, and gave tax cuts that go almost entirely to the 1%. At one point Trump said the federal minimum wage should be at least $10, I even know people that voted for him because of it. I want to ask them how that worked out for them. Not to mention all of the assaults on abortion rights and gay rights, cutting national parks and conservation programs, and so forth.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @07:01PM
This is where that D&D alignment system comes real handy. You see, any laws criminalizing en-mass to the degree of establishing children concentration camps can only be described as evil. You see, laws removed from circumstances and practice are deliberately discriminatory. When a poor man steals bread its only wrong if the society he lives in isn't rich enough to feed everyone. If it is, it's a failed society. Regardless of your "work ethics" and the likes. And if you still don't get it, read the bible or any work of philosophy that wasn't embraced by the Nazis.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:24AM (1 child)
You've overdosed on the Kool-Aid, man.
Concentration camps? You need to study history a little. No intelligent person can make that claim, as anything other than a joke.
So - what do you propose? Mom and/or Dad break the law, and are sent to jail/prison/court. The kids should also go to jail? Get a life. Get in contact with reality. Or, maybe you prefer to send the kids out into the desert, alone, without water. Any problem with the kids will soon be solved by nature, right?
Seriously, get a grip.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:49AM
I remember the time that Runaway was driving truck. Got caught going seven miles per hour over the posted, and 10,000 over gross for the road. We put his fucking kids up for fostering, and his wife got sent back to Ohio. Misdemeanor violation of federal law, and you think we should incarcerate Runaway's entire family? Well, as a liberal, and a leftist, and a communist, maybe it might be a good idea to act as a deterrent for anyone else that might be so crazy as to support Trump policies.
I heard that they opennd up the case of Melania's immigration, looks like Little Baron may end up in the same "holding facilities" until the whole thing blows over. No wonder she was so resistant to Donald running for Precedent.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:21AM (2 children)
You need to add, "caused by the US." to that statement. They are fleeing nightmare conditions that the US created.
Reagan murdered over a million indigenous in Guatemala*, and (illegally) funded and armed far right death squads in El Salvador.
Hondurans are victims of a coup supported by then secretary of state Hillary Clinton to put a far right government in place of a popular moderate (center left) democratically elected president..
Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru and Uruguay, in addition to Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador have all had their governments overthrown in US backed coups to install bloody right-wing dictators and/or direct US military involvement with same goal. Haiti too (two US backed coups, one by papa Bush and one by baby Bush).
And the US provided training in torture to these new far-right regimes (School of the Americas). We also deported kids that grew up in the US who are now disproportionately gang members. Los Zetas was a US created/funded paramilitary force before they went rogue in Mexico and became one of the most violent drug cartels in Mexico.
*Reagan backed the genocide in Guatemala (in the 80s) that occurred during the latter part of the the civil war (l1960-1996). But, Guatemala was originally destabilized by a US orchestrated coup that overthrew the democratically elected president Arbenz and installed a right-wing bloody dictatorship in 1954 (the year after we overthrew the democratically elected government of President Mosaddegh in Iran and installed a bloody right wing dictator there too which directly led to the theocratic mess in Iran today).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @11:22AM
I've been a massive critic of US foreign policy all my life but many of these countries would be shitholes without any US involvement.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:41PM
Thank you for saying this! There's more to it as well. Look up Unaoil, which was a company operating out of Monaco whose whole reason for existence was to subvert democratically elected governments through bribery, murder, and everything else if that democratically elected govt did something the megacorps who wanted to exploit their natural resources didn't like.
The megacorps, the bankers, they've been destabilizing the rest of the world and creating these refugees in the first place. They exemplify evil and must be brought to justice. They are the existential threat to humanity.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Informative) by DannyB on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:21PM (3 children)
Trump very loudly and publicly promised to bring back waterboarding and much worse. He openly supported torture.
One of the easiest go google examples . . .
Donald Trump: I'd bring back 'a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding'
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/donald-trump-waterboarding-republican-debate-torture [theguardian.com]
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:30PM (2 children)
Does that mean Mueller can use waterboarding?
(Score: 2) by Fluffeh on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:50PM (1 child)
Fat floats. Probably not much good there.
*sips coffee*
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:24PM
Coffee this late in the day?
MADMAN!
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:59PM (7 children)
We should dial it up to 11.
Seriously, what is your problem? Get over the childish fantasy that we will all just share and cooperate -- it doesn't even work that way on the playground. Nations are teams of people who fight together to control resources. Killing and/or enslaving ones foes is how it works.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:32AM (6 children)
Anytime I start forgetting that there is a small % of pyshopaths amongst humanity I just come to SN and read the comments. I am then reminded why we need to increase mental healthcare and continue limiting gun ownership to people who aren't batshit insane willing to murder their neighbors.
We should dial you all the way down to a padded cell.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:52AM (2 children)
It's even worse than that.
Those of us who are sane must take the world back from them before we will have the political authority, whether through reform or revolution, to put in place measures that will prevent people from mistaking the history of humanity for what the future of humanity should be along with an abdication of all responsibility to create a world incrementally better for our children than our present world.
I do not know how we proceed without simultaneously enabling psychopaths who claim to agree with our immediate goals.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:21PM
Yeah, I'm not a fan of restricting people's freedom especially over things like mental health which can be a very nebulous and easy to abuse accusation.
The best answer I've got is we should re-allocate people from truly useless jobs such as insurance sales and put them on oversight committees. The more eyeballs on an issue the harder it would be to slip abuses through.
It is a tough problem, but instead of focusing on locking people up I think we just need to work on election reform and busting up any business that is "too big to fail".
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday July 08 2018, @12:02PM
Don't worry, you have me on your side. Believe me, we're Making America Great Again!!!!
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:32AM (2 children)
You're just another authoritarian, who disguises his supposed authority with words like "health care". No, you don't get to decide how all the rest of humanity should behave. You should go visit the Tree of Liberty, slash your wrists, and water the tree with the blood of a tyrant.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:51AM
"health care", as in, Runaway, take your fucking meds! You are going off the deep end again! Not the Livestock, Runaway!
(Score: 2) by tfried on Thursday June 21 2018, @07:49AM
Let me re-mix the conversation for you:
Well said, Runaway, well said. Which is why we need the UN, even if it does mean allowing freedom of speech, and right to life to people who are even more batshit insane and dangerous than those within our own nations' borders. International politics is complicated...
(Score: 2, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:27AM (15 children)
You're going to have massive problems in life until you quit hating your daddy. There is no nation under the sun where people are as free as the US. Now that's not exactly a high bar lately but the truth is the truth even if you dislike it.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:25AM (1 child)
You need to get out more. The US is a shit hole compared to much of the developed world.
Bread and circuses seems to keep most USians stupid, happy, and ignorant of reality.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Thursday June 21 2018, @09:42AM
He didn't say it wasn't a shit-hole. He said it was the most free. From a legal standpoint I would find it hard to argue with him, the US constitution is an impressive document and I couldn't name another country with more (theoretical) freedom.
Doesn't mean I would move there. I'm in AU, which is, on paper, heading towards a total fucking nanny-state. In practice I think we have a better quality of life. We still have cultural attitudes of 'a fair go' and support for the underdog. Makes things a lot more pleasant all round compared to the dog-eat-dog, let-them-eat-cake, capitalist paradise of the USA. As far as the nanny-state bullshit, most aussies just ignore it unless it is something that works in their favour.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:42AM
If anyone ever wondered whether the US's indoctrination of its citizens is successful, there's your proof. Wow, Kool-Aid deeply drunk.
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:54AM (5 children)
I've met quite a few political refugees from the States, something that has been going on for close to 250 years. Free countries don't have so many people leaving to seek freedom.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:57PM (4 children)
I think you need to look up the phrase "political refugee". It obviously does not mean what you think it does.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by dry on Monday June 25 2018, @04:49AM (3 children)
Running away from political persecution such as being sent to the other side of the world to die in the case of the ones I met. Earlier things like being of the wrong political stripe, being the wrong colour and having no rights or being attacked to have land stolen.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 25 2018, @04:33PM (2 children)
Oh, you mean the types who swear an oath to do a job then run like rabbits when ordered to actually do it? We used to shoot those types. It's a shame we don't do that anymore.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday June 26 2018, @03:04AM (1 child)
No I mean the ones that didn't have the political or financial connections to get out of being sent to a useless war and ran away. Usually you guys seem to elect the ones who should have been shot as president instead.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 27 2018, @02:21PM
Hmm... let me think... when was the last time any non-volunteer was told to go shoot stuff over there by the US government? Forty-five years ago, was it? That's one of the up sides to having the strongest permanent military on the planet; you don't have to draft people anymore.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:56AM (1 child)
I have refrained from saying this for quite some time, but as an ancient Greek philosopher, I have spent quite a bit of time in the Indian Nations that are now called Oklahoma, and I have to say, TMB, I am your father. Hand-cutting off is entirely optional, since I, as your father, want you to succeed in your chosen, um, profession. Make me proud, my son, stop being a stupid libertariantard.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:58PM
If it comes with a lightsaber and the Jedi mind trick, I'll join any party you pick.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @08:24AM
"Free" as in outlaw, perhaps. I'm sure you will find True Scotsman to resolve the cognitive dissonance in your head, but:
World press freedom [rsf.org] index: ranked 45th
World human freedom [cato.org] index: ranked 17th
World prosperity [prosperity.com] index: ranked 18th
World happiness [worldhappiness.report] index: ranked 18th
World life expectancy [undp.org] index: ranked 5th in 1980, 45th in 2013
World ecology [happyplanetindex.org] index: ranked 108th
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:10PM (2 children)
1. Your equating the state with a parental figure presents a fundamentally authoritarian outlook. Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, etc all wanted their people to love them as a parent.
2. The government of a free people answers to its citizens, not the other way around. If we are as free a nation as you say, then I am under no obligation whatsoever to love the state and certainly under no obligation to defend the state's actions.
3. As a sibling poster pointed out, there's a lot of evidence that the US is not the most free country in the world. Evidence which matches my experience traveling internationally. You clearly need to get out more.
My relationship with my actual father, not a father-figure-equated-government, is quite good, and my life has its challenges but is on the whole pretty damn good.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:05PM (1 child)
You misunderstand. Deliberately or through lack of reading comprehension? I implied that this was why you shit on the US at every opportunity. The issue is yours not mine.
The uncle poster lumped a bunch of shit in there that directly contradicts individual liberty when managed by the government for evidence as well. Given that he can't even understand the topic, I wasn't inclined to reply to him.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:29PM
You know, every time I read through threads like these I see the conservatives and libertarians constantly having massive issues with communication. Misunderstanding statements that are very clear and doubling down on your original points as if people did not understand them. All I can figure is it is just the cognitive dissonance at work where your emotions are no longer tied to reason and it just breaks down your ability to be rational.
Just bringing in "daddy issues" shows your point was merely an ad-hominem attack and then you respond to actually decent responses with projection claims of superiority. Get your ego in check before you bury yourself.