SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
US leaving UN Human Rights Council -- 'a cesspool of political bias'
US Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley announced the United States is withdrawing from the UN Human Rights Council Tuesday, accusing the body of bias against US ally Israel and a failure to hold human rights abusers accountable. The move, which the Trump administration has threatened for months, came down one day after the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights slammed the separation of children from their parents at the US-Mexico border as "unconscionable."
Speaking from the State Department, where she was joined by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, Haley defended the move to withdraw from the council, saying US calls for reform were not heeded. "Human rights abusers continue to serve on, and be elected to, the council," said Haley, listing US grievances with the body. "The world's most inhumane regimes continue to escape its scrutiny, and the council continues politicizing scapegoating of countries with positive human rights records in an attempt to distract from the abusers in its ranks."
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @06:53PM (87 children)
Seeing how the US is operating concentration camps and forcibly separating children from parents along the US-Mexican border right now... it sounds appropriate that they would withdraw themselves from any pretense of evaluating or passing judgement on human rights.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:04PM (19 children)
So where exactly ARE they keeping the parents? I'm guessing in some facility that is likely worse? And I'm guessing they separate males and females so if both parents happen to be present, they will be split up. And I think it is a good guess that the USA does not have documentation on every single Mexican... so you might just be putting a child in a pen with some random pedo. Is that a good idea?
(Score: -1, Troll) by frojack on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:08PM (14 children)
Liberal News media were carrying video of these "children" being "herded" to the showers (which were promptly called gas chambers).
All the "kids" were gang-age males. Many of whom arrived without a parent in site according to one report.
And the girls? https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/06/19/border-patrol-immigration-plan-b-birth-control/ [cbslocal.com]
The best thing this country can do is convince parents to stop bringing/sending their children, and to convince those countries to stop funding illegal immigration. [fairus.org]
Apparently, its not possible to embarrass Mexico or any other central american country.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:29PM
Perhaps, but that in no way excuses what the Trump Administration is doing at the border. We are better than this. Or, at least, we once were.
(Score: 3, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:31PM (9 children)
How old are these kids? [npr.org]
(Score: 4, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:36PM (8 children)
They can;t defend it so all they do is lie, lie, and lie some more.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:17PM (7 children)
I know, it's like the left don't realize Who signed the main piece of legislation at play. [wikipedia.org] Or that Trump shouldn't be legislating by executive order [whitehouse.gov] (like Obama) because Cryin' Chuck Schemer and friends still refuse to work with the administration on legislation.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:35PM (6 children)
It is funny how you trot out Bbbbut Ooobamaaaa when no one mentioned him or made a comparison. Lots of shit sludes through without gaining national attention, go whatabout somewhere else.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:11PM (3 children)
DACA was an executive order and even studies looking to debunk the theory that it caused a huge spike in unaccompanied minors attempting illegal border crossings have to note the correlation. If Trump were to legislate by executive order as Obama did with DACA or drone strikes (killing brown people without congressional approval) then he'd be maligned as "literally Hitler". Trump set a six month deadline in September 2017 for congress to pass the DREAM act but the Democrats refuse to cooperate. So you get zero-tolerance in accord with existing legislation that the Trump administration did not put in place.
What clearly sludes (sic) past you is that factual explanations are not whataboutism,
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:18PM (2 children)
Dumbass lets the point soar above his head. I'm shocked, absolutely SHOCKED that you're too triggered to even comprehend some simple statements. Further solidifies my opinion that discussing anything with Trump supporters or their cousins is just a waste of time.
Here is a clue, I'm not arguing against your point or supporting Obama's fascist bullshit, just pointing out that your whataboutism is off topic and lame projecting. Face facts, Trump is a lying conman turd of a president that should be impeached simply on the basis of national pride. He is selling out your country and magically able to make his supporters think it is the greatest thing ever. #SAD
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:53PM (1 child)
Donald Trump is known to display the temperament of an emotional child but not to the extent of his detractors. #VerySadNews
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:55AM
Heil Der Führer Trump!!!
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:01AM (1 child)
This is exactly why as I lefty, I'm glad Trump won. When Obama went to the right of GWB, it was *crickets*. At least when the GOP are evil assholes, people bitch which is exactly why I'm hoping Trump wins again, though of course I'll be voting 3d party cause I actually do care about policies and in no way believe that evil is better when Democrats do it.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:33PM
Which 3rd party?
I'd like to see a return of the Progressive Party of 1912 (the Bull Moose party). Their party platform was a laundry list of every good thing government did in the last century, Social Security, ending child labor, etc. We need a 21st century version of that.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:32PM (1 child)
Yes, the propaganda machine only released video of dark skinned teenage males. Imagine that. Remember that all the video and photos were provided by the government.
One report, from FOX. Of course no one could possibly know who the kids arrived with because they were all mixed together in those dog kennels, and the government implying that these were gang members coming to attack America is far too convenient of a narrative.
Not only can America not embarrass those countries into reducing their gang violence, murder rates and control the exedous from their countries, but America cannot even convince America to address their gang violence and murder rates. America is also unable to convince the millions of white European illegal aliens who over stayed their visas to stop breaking the laws.
The once all-powerful America has lost its standing and its luster. Caging and jailing children has seen to that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:50PM
CNN is FOX? [youtube.com]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:02PM
I thought it was "military-age males."
Either phrasing is misandrist.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:36AM (3 children)
Try to keep up. These aren't Mexicans at the border. These are Central and South Americans, and Caribbean natives, who have trekked across Mexico, for the purpose of making a political statement.
If, on a given day, a Salvadoran, a Peruvian, and two Columbians arrive at the border, with or without children in two, then we might presume that maybe they are seeking asylum, for reasons other than politics.
When an entire caravan of thousands arrive together, consisting of people from a dozen or more nations, all organized under a central leadership - you don't have people needing asylum. You have a political movement.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Reziac on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:48AM
You misspelled "invasion".
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:01AM
You Lie!!!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:41PM
I do wonder why nobody is panning Mexico for not taking them in. After all, they share the same language and even many cultural traits. They would integrate in Mexico much more easily than the United States.
Why is it the US's responsibility to take them all in? Why can't any of their stable, prosperous neighbors in Central America, places like Panama and Costa Rica, take them in? Why is it always, always, always on Americans to do it?
That's the part that doesn't make sense. I don't have anything against immigrants per se, because I am married to one, but this whole thing now rings so hollow, so artificial. It's another chapter in the "hate Trump at any cost arrrrrggggghhhhh!!!!!!" fiction.
FWIW, I don't think the hysteria anti-immigration people have about all immigrants being violent criminals is justified, but it is a factor. People are getting hacked to death with machetes on Long Island, and that is definitely new and definitely because of MS-13. I've seen those dudes on the beach at Sunken Meadow State Park on the north shore when I've taken my kids fishing (you can tell by the tattoos), and they should and must be put down. We should keep them out of our country. We would be fools to not do that.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:17PM (64 children)
The US is enforcing its laws. US citizens entering at a non-lawful point of entry would be arrested too!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snow on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:43PM (43 children)
The US created those laws. That is no excuse.
It's absolutely despicable. All of America should be ashamed. American 'Christians' that bindly look the other way when it's inconvienient to accept reality are terrible people. I hope there is a hell so they can rot in it.
America used to be a moral leader. The entire world would look to America for guidance. In a year and a half, one child has changed all that. The people of America need to look deep and figure out what type of country they want to be a part of. The current path is bleak.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:54PM (16 children)
Liberal society depends on the rule of law, it is the job of border agents to enforce that law. The only change here is that border agents were told to do their jobs.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Snow on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:57PM (9 children)
I don't blame the border agents. I actually feel sorry for them too.
I place the blame squarely on Trump and his administration as well as the spineless scumbags you call Congress.
(Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:12PM
For telling immigration officials to do their jobs? Trump didn't create any of the rules being applied.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:12PM (2 children)
Actually, I do blame them. Nuremberg taught us that "I was only following orders" is no excuse. If they had any conscience, they should feel very ashamed of this. Very ashamed.
Yes, well, that too. And the people who voted for these assholes.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:48AM (1 child)
Dubya, Obama, the CIA and what they did at Gitmo and other black sites taught us that the lessons of Nuremberg no longer apply. "I was only following orders" got all kinds of monsters off the hook.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:43PM
All of the above must hang for that. They must hang.
Monsters must be slain, no matter where they are.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by frojack on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:16PM (3 children)
No blame for Mexico, sending and financing these rush-to-the-border marches?
https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/mexicos-defense-illegal-immigrants [fairus.org]
You seem to be under the delusion that all at once, a bunch of people suddenly decide to march their children 1000 miles with not a peso in their pocket the entire length of Mexico to reach the US.
Son: Your naivete shows no bounds. It doesn't happen that way. This is planned, orchestrated, organized, funded. And its not "coyotes" either. Its the Mexican Government and liberals in the US attempting to fill the voter polls.
Give these parents a choice: Take your children and go back to Mexico today, free transportation. Or sit in jail with your kids in another jail. What decision do you think they would make? They'd choose to stay. Most of these kids are NOT traveling with their parents. No parent would do that knowingly. They were duped.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:36PM
God DAMN you're nuts.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:03PM (1 child)
Guía del Migrante Mexicano translated to English [theamericanresistance.com].
I fail to see much there that is nefarious.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:29AM
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Mykl on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:39AM
The Director's Edition Box Set of Lord of the Rings (Fellowship I think) includes an amazing number of 'making of' features etc, as well as a documentary about Tolkien.
One of the fascinating things I found there was that Tolkien came up with the idea of a Wraith from his experiences of WW1. To summarise, he felt that the only way in which such horrific battles were able to occur, leading to the deaths of millions of soldiers, was the separation between military command (who were looking at bunch of pins on a board hundreds of miles away) and the soldiers in the trenches. Military Command was able to remove the human element from their thought and could treat the war as a series of tactical manoeuvres, similar to a board game. In doing so, they could send thousands of men to their doom and still sleep easy that night. This absence of compassion led him to think of a general with no soul who existed purely to obey their commander - eventually leading to the idea of the RingWraith.
Trump is no Sauron, but Congress are definitely looking like RingWraiths.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:26PM (5 children)
We can control our border without breaking up families with no plan for reuniting them.
We can control our border without becoming the kind of governments we were fighting in the previous century.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:30PM (4 children)
Sure and Trump, who was not responsible for existing legislation, has just signed an executive order to that effect.
(Score: 2) by digitalaudiorock on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:55PM (3 children)
We'll see how that goes, given that he also said he plans to continue his zero tolerance policy. That's a bit of a 1=2 if you ask me.
You simply can't put parents in jail without separating them from their parents. Granted that's a dilemma...one that could be used as arguments for either side I suppose. Most of us want to err on the side of not traumatizing children.
However, what's NOT a dilemma is that fact that when you deport someone, you most certainly can reunite them with thier children first. There are growing reports where this is NOT happening...where parents are being deported with their kids still here! What's the fucking excuse for that? I suppose if this legislation stops that it's an improvement but that's a pretty low fucking bar.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:47PM (2 children)
Trump was clear there will be legislation. He set a six month deadline for congress back in Sept 2017 [newyorker.com] in an attempt to get a bi-partisan bill. That didn't happen [washingtontimes.com] so he repealed DACA (Obama executive order) and enforced existing laws. Now Trump has signed an executive order to address the issue of children being separated, the pressure is once again on the Democrats and once again Schumer is playing politics. The thing is; Dragging your feet and pointing at that mean man over there isn't good politics.
Trump is a bully, no doubt about it but he's also proving effective and that's the biggest fear of his critics. Trump passing the DREAM Act that's been bouncing around since 2001 isn't a success the Democrats want this administration to have, especially because it runs counter to their narrative. Me, I'd insist on comprehensive border egress checks too. [thehill.com]
(Score: 2) by digitalaudiorock on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:41AM (1 child)
Because none of that had anything to do with his insistence on building that fucking bat shit insane border wall right? Kudos to anyone who refuses to accept that. You'd have to be insane to do otherwise.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:16AM
We're building the Border Wall. As everybody knows. And believe me, it will have that big beautiful door. With a lot of people going out. And a few coming in. Congress MUST FULLY FUND the Wall. And Mexico, eventually, will pay. Trust me, Mexico will pay 100%. We also need much better immigration laws. Our very foolish Visa Lottery randomly hands out green cards without any regard for skill, merit, or the safety of American people. As the Democrats do nothing but resist, blame, complain and obstruct!!!!
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:03PM (3 children)
Fine, the US should just repeal all of their immigration laws. It's a democracy, vote. And let everyone just walk in freely, bringing crime, taking US jobs, not paying taxes, damaging the economy, and so on.
Oh, wait, people in the US want to protect their own economy and protect their own children? Who would have thought?
(Score: 5, Touché) by Gaaark on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:54AM (2 children)
Wait!
People in the US want to protect their own children by putting them in cages or by putting other children in cages?
I'm confused.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @09:56AM (1 child)
That's the bit I modded you informative for.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday June 21 2018, @10:53PM
So enlighten me
Whose kids do you want caged?
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:23PM (6 children)
There is. They will.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:35PM (5 children)
There is no Heaven or Hell. Hell would be an improvement.
Also Trump a good Presbyterian boy who dindu nuffin. I read it on his Wiki.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:24PM (3 children)
I've known Presbyterians all my life. I was raised in the Presbyterian Church. My father was ordained PCUSA. I know Presbyterians and I can assure you Donald J Trump is not like any Presbyterian I have ever known.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:57AM (2 children)
I was raised going to a Presbyterian church.
I have turned against organized religion because I saw Trumps in every pew.
There are Trumps in EVERY religion.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:57PM (1 child)
I'm a Presbyterian, and have been all my life. I don't see anything Presbyterian in Donald Trump's behavior. He's not understated, like Presbyterians are. He's immodest. He's a loud mouth. He's a jerk. None of those are qualities or values that Presbyterianism encourages. Presbyterianism has a Calvinist lineage, so DJT pretty much represents the opposite of all of that in his comportment.
But, then, I don't think these are days that call for understated or muted. They call for cut the crap. Previous administrations abused the stuffing out of immigrants, and pretended they didn't. Previous administrations did nothing to insist our neighbors do their part to take in refugees, seeing in them instead a source of cheap labor to undermine American workers of all levels; meanwhile they performed a pious song and dance about "give me your tired, your hungry, your poor," to hide the fact that those poor bastards were imprisoned in slave labor camps in the orange groves of Florida and the back 40 of the huge factory farms of California's Central Valley (see the National Geographic issue on modern slavery).
So of course all the forces in the power elite who have been milking that slave labor system for decades are going to throw everything they can at Trump or anyone who tries to put a stop to it. Of course they're going to accuse him of all the things they have been doing in the dark for all that time.
I don't like Donald Trump. I would not like to sit down and have a beer with him. He's a pompous ass with horrible taste in everything. But I don't need him to be likeable. I need him to be a molotov cocktail to burn down the bullshit artists and hypocrites who have destroyed American democracy.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday June 21 2018, @11:06PM
I guess, unfortunately, my Presbyterians are worse than yours: everyone would be all holy holy, love your fellow man in church but be all honking the horn when the parking lot didn't empty out fast enough.
I went to a retreat with a friend of mine who was Reorganized church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints.
Everyone there was all holy holy, love your fellow man until after supper. Then, jobs were chosen.
Everyone loved doing dishes because they sang and tossed the dishes to each other to wash, dry, put away....lots of fun.
Then the minister asked for volunteers to clean the bathrooms and toilets. No volunteers.
Not. One. Single. Volunteer.
So I stuck my hand up: I'd eaten their food and I was ready to pay back by working.
The minister looked at me, saw I was 'the visitor/guest' and looked away, continuing to ask for volunteers.
FINALLY some people got guilted into doing it.
THAT was one of those moments when I decided organized religion was bunk.
"Yeah, I'll volunteer for fun stuff, sure God! Oh.....toilets.....ewwwwww, no thanks, God."
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:41PM
Maybe this planet is some other planet's hell?
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by jimtheowl on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:21PM (4 children)
There is a lawful process to deal with how asylum seekers are to be treated, and that law that is being broken by enforcing the current policy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:02AM (3 children)
Actually, you're wrong [cornell.edu]
There is a lawful process for claiming asylum [alllaw.com] and it doesn't involve crossing borders illegally. So you're wrong there as well.
(Score: 3, Informative) by jimtheowl on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:08PM (2 children)
From your own link, they could simply give them a $50 fine.
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penaltiesAny alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.
-----
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 22 2018, @12:08AM (1 child)
Not if they claim asylum which is the issue here. So yes, you're wrong.
(Score: 2) by jimtheowl on Friday June 22 2018, @08:27PM
(Score: 3, Interesting) by unauthorized on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:22AM (2 children)
No country should be ashamed for enforcing it's borders.
If anything, I'd like for the west to stop braindraining the third world by taking all the best and brightest away from them, immigration to the west is destroying my country and many others.
With it's history of waging a war on the third world, I wouldn't call America a "moral leader".
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:47AM
I've spent the last 5 years trying to explain this to people. Countries that cannot sustain a middle class are socially and politically unstable.
The left wing in the West was protesting globalisation and promoting localisation just a decade ago. Since then they've grabbed onto the coat-tails of neoliberalism and jumped off the metaphorical cliff edge by labelling any reasoned arguments as "racist" or "sexist". So while you may think you're making an appeal to reason, you're really just "a fascist with internalised racism". These people simply cannot be reasoned with.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:05PM
If you're one of those best and brightest from those countries, trying to escape to the West is a perfectly rational move when the mega-corporations are actively undermining democracy where you are by corrupting and destroying your own reformers. Shit, the Iranians elected Mossadegh who wanted to use Iranian oil money to improve their country, and the CIA assassinated him because the oil companies were going to lose their access to that oil. That was not an isolated occurrence. It is policy. It is the everyday.
The American government, and other governments in the West, run around making everyone believe that Al Qaeda are the threat to freedom and democracy. When that gets old they invent another external bogeyman to distract everyone. The fact is, they are the criminals. They are the gangs. They are the existential threat to freedom and democracy. They do it every day, and get the sheeple to applaud them for it.
They are that way because we have a system that screens for psychopaths and puts them in power. We have to depose them, and weed them all out. We need to exile them to a desert isle to live out the Lord of the Flies fantasy they want to visit on the rest of us all the time.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:27AM (4 children)
When?? Seriously. I'm nowhere near a Trump supporter, but pretending the U.S. used to be a "moral leader" that other countries should look to... that's a combination of hubris, hypocrisy, and serious denial.
Let's look at American history a bit. When, precisely, was America a "moral leader"? For the first ~80 years, we were happy to enslave an entire race to prop up our economy. And, despite the modern rhetoric about the Civil War, even the great Abraham Lincoln was more than willing to endorse the Corwin Amendment to make slavery perpetual in the South if it would save the Union. All this at a time when the trend among "civilized" nations in Europe was to abolish slavery.
Meanwhile, and then for many decades afterward, we have the large-scale genocide against Native Americans. In the late 1800s, America began to participate in the same BS imperialist stuff that European nations had been for a long time. I'll skip over the nonsense involved in adventures like the Spanish-American War, but let's look at WWI and WWII, both of which saw the U.S. strongly favoring sitting on the sidelines while badness was taking over the rest of what was considered the "civilized" world at the time.
Not really the character of a "moral leader," but then again, nobody really gave much of a crap about American policy in the rest of the world before WWII. (And we won't even get into the badness of WWII -- firebombing civilians, etc. You might make a case for nuclear weapons in Japan given the whole situation, but firebombing in Germany and Japan was... well, war crimes. Except we won, so nobody was executed for them.)
And then what happened after WWII? Because of the luck of its priority in having nuclear weapons, the U.S. strongly fueled an arms race with the USSR for a number of decades that could have destroyed humanity. Meanwhile, it participated in many other minor wars (both called "wars" and random interference in other nations) in a lot of ways that were questionably moral, to say the least. But hey -- it's a "superpower," so it gets to do what it wants.
And both parties have hardly provided strong "moral" leadership to the world for the past few decades. You have the insane weapons escalations under Reagan (and playing around in foreign dictatorships), Clinton's questionable missile strikes [wikipedia.org] which occurred suspiciously close to a scandal in Wag the Dog style (and ultimately were a huge propaganda victory for Osama bin Laden that likely fueled future actions against the U.S., like 9/11), Bush II's launching of a war on false pretenses (WMDs? what WMDs?) and attempted rejustification of torture within the civilized world, Obama's drone strikes against civilians (and even against American citizens, legalizing [vox.com] the assassination of American citizens by the federal government without trial)... etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.
America was NEVER a moral leader. It was always incredibly hypocritical, and other nations "look[ed] to America for guidance" because we had more missiles. America was a superpower. What choice did other nations have?
But for a long time -- and still to a large extent today -- most Americans happily ignore most of what goes on in the rest of the world, including the official actions of the U.S. government for the past few generations.
Oh sure, Trump's worse. But Trump is merely the honest manifestation of some of the constant character traits America has shown throughout its history.
Honestly, from Trump's approval ratings, it's clear that a little less than half of America is pretty well represented by him. That's profoundly disturbing, but when you look back on the history of badness in the U.S. (and in the U.S. actions around the world), it's pretty clear that's not an aberration. It's just HONESTY for once. For a long time, Americans lived ignorance (between "state secrets" and just willful blindness to the rest of the world) of the crap the U.S. leaders were doing around the world, then they started living in denial, but more strongly when their "party guy" was in power.
Indeed. That I absolutely agree with. Hopefully, Trump might serve as a wake-up call, but one thing that would be helpful is to realize that (1) Trump clearly represents the desires and wishes of a significant number of Americans -- however much I and many others find that confusing -- and (2) the legacy of imperialism he's participating in is actually the NORM of American history, not an aberration.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:01AM (1 child)
And that is all before the era of America's Banana Republics.
America likes to talk big about its moral core, but when you look at its words and its actions they rarely coincide. Living by a code of conduct or moral fiber is for the plebs, not for the leadership class.
For another excellent example, go read what lead to the Spanish-American War, or the Mexican American War.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:16PM
God bless you guys for saying it. I am so frustrated with those who are claiming that this is all Trump's fault. That he's an aberration. That everybody before was all sweetness and light, and if we can only somehow get rid of Trump, then everything will be sweetness and light again.
America is not the moral paragon people imagine it to be, and it never has been. But for the first time in my lifetime, somebody is being honest about it. That is so refreshing in a political universe of infinite hypocrisy and endless bullshit.
America should be a moral paragon. It should be an avatar of justice and freedom, because that's what I teach my kids, what I expect from my neighbors, and what I demand from myself. But we will never realize that as a country until we first cut the crap and stop pretending like anybody in DC has the faintest interest in any of that. In fact, everyone in DC constitutes an existential threat to all of those values, and do everything they can every day to undermine the yearning in the hearts of average Americans to realize those values.
The people in DC are those kids who cheated off your test in the 2nd grade, who cut in line after you had been waiting for hours, who steal the bread from the kid who hasn't eaten in three days, who trip the kid with the thick glasses who's good in math because they think it would be funny. They are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:04AM
And Snowden was one of those bright moral American lights!!!......and he's now a hunted man. Hunted because he spot-lighted the US IMMORALITY.
Notice how there are no Snowdens in the US leadership.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:12AM
No the US has never been perfect, but the country handled post WW2 better than Europe handled post WW1.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:38AM
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Render unto Uncle Sam that which is Uncle's.
Christians don't write the laws in the US, and you don't want them to do so.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:37AM
Slightly offtopic, but America was never a moral leader. There was a lot of propaganda about it when the times were good after WW2 when every other country in the world was a shithole and people wanted to buy and get back on the track as soon as possible, but it wasn't true ever. Europeans, esp. western europeans knew it, asians knew it, africans knew it and south americans knew it. Only that europeans tolerated it for some reason (won't speak it).
Trump is a loud mouthed but relatively straight forward person, and all the wool is coming off the eyes of people who are now either extremely angry or were already extremely angry.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by bob_super on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:49PM (11 children)
The Great Deporter In Chief Obama set new records for kicking illegals out, without getting all our Friends -and the Pope- to scream about his methods.
(Score: 1) by tftp on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:58PM
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:01PM (8 children)
Blame the media. This is one of the reasons we need to bust up the media monopolies, important matters go unnoticed when the oligarchy desires it. Without the media making a stink about something it is near impossible to rally the people.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:02PM (1 child)
Yup. As soon as the media is finally silenced, we can have our fun with all those undesirables.
I hear the weather is lovely in Dachau this time of the year.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:59PM
That's not what GP said.
wswswswsws, for example, frequently points out where the mainstream media has covered up important issues. GP's hypothesis that we see big media move in lock-step due to monopolization is a good point. Whether it's correct or not is beyond the scope of this post.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:12AM (5 children)
Yup
The first thing you do when you want to take control of a country is control the media/communications.
Then you change the government to what you want.
Then you do what you want to the populace.
Coup d'etat.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:51AM (4 children)
Yes, of course. And, America's progressives do control the US media. Thank you for pointing that out.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @04:35AM (3 children)
It always amazes me that in the face of media ownership consolidation to a very few mega corps, that anyone can somehow see that as progressive control.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:41PM (2 children)
Go back several months, to the last presidential election. See the reactions of the various hosts, anchors, and talking heads on the mainstream media. With the exception of Faux Noise, there was much weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. Seriously, some of those queer fucks were CRYING on camera, because their "progressive" candidate lost the election.
And, you guys are much worse than Republicans. This time, Obama time, only a few birthers were left to carry the torch against Obama. This time, Trump time, we still have nearly half the country suffering from butt-hurt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUGB0zUlUxo [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:43PM (1 child)
Sounds like Obama's time to me, although I must say the racism and hatred toward Obama was a lot worse and unjustified than the hatred towards Trump.
Kiwis and Oranges here... sounds like you are still in denial about that big dildo Trump shoved up your butt and you're projecting out all your "butthurt" feelings. Trump is terrible, being angry about it is normal. Being angry that people don't like Trump means you're a moron with deeper issues.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Friday June 22 2018, @01:18AM
Every prejudiced bigot can justify his own hatred. Thanks for confirming that.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:07AM
You misunderstand the root of evil in the world today. Democrats who do the exact same things as Republicans, are Jesuses, but Republican who do the exact same things as Democrats are Satans.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:36PM (4 children)
Nazi Germany also enforced its laws.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:00PM (3 children)
It took a super-state[*] to overcome them and declare their laws unjust. Who is going to overcome the USA to judge its laws?
[*] A coalition of several countries.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:49PM (2 children)
Teach your kids mandarin.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:01PM (1 child)
Hahahaha good luck getting justice out of the Chinese Communist Party.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:45PM
I don't think you'd get justice from the CCP, but maybe you'd get survival.
That's also worth something, for the time being. CCP is not a death cult (yet?).
Once the Nazis had finished off all the undesirables, they'd be forced to invent new undesirables, or risk instability.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @06:14AM
Why?...I mean really why? Why should anyone be detained traveling anywhere on this rock???
(Score: 2) by fritsd on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:38PM
Right.
I'll go from 0 to Godwin in a few seconds:
In the Third Reich, it was illegal to be both a Jew and alive at the same time.
Any comment on that?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @09:44PM
Arrested for what? Not having their exit-visa properly cancelled by returning through an official point of entry? The US does not have exit visas, so how would they know you left? How would they know you were entering, and if you are a citizen, it can be illegal to enter your own country? What are you? Papieren, Bitte! Nazis.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:54PM (1 child)
Looks like instead of predicting FEMA concentration camps, we should have been predicting ICE concentration camps.
From wswswswsws today 6/20 The United States of America: Land of internment camps [wsws.org]:
Where is #metoo?
It gets worse. wswswswsws continues:
Should due process be abolished for immigrants, especially given the military-style CBP raids in Ohio [wsws.org], I believe we may no longer be able to consider "American Gestapo" merely wswswswsws hyperbole.
(Score: 2) by fritsd on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:42PM
I believe it's also a political polarization process:
Trump needs to hire the kind of people, that would gladly serve him in those camps. If he has enough then he just needs to spread the rumor: "don't disagree with the Leader, or you might get hurt by those hooligans".
Maybe he could give them fashionable brown shirts, as well. With a big USA flag, of course.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday June 20 2018, @06:59PM (1 child)
The irony. So human right abusing Israel gets butthurt over being accused, whines to it's partner in crime, the US government who in turn takes their toys and stomps home like a child. The complete lack of professional behavior from this administration is staggering.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:15PM
yet not surprising.
Terrible is the new normal, thanks stupid clickbait media fuckers!
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:15PM (7 children)
The HRC [ifex.org] is a sick joke. Revisit the Rwandan genocide or observe the current situation in the Yemen, I'm sure we'll get an apology for the latter some day too. The UN is a Fabian project and should be disbanded.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:21PM (6 children)
The UN has largely succeeded at what it was really set up to do in the late 1940's, namely stop a humanity-ending World War III by at least keeping diplomatic channels open between the US, USSR (now Russia), and China. The members of the Security Council with veto power have veto power because any one of them could kill all of us.
Everything else largely amounts to window dressing, but that diplomatic role in the middle of the Cold War is at least a part of why we didn't all die in a firestorm 50-60 years ago.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:08PM (5 children)
What was it really set up to do? [modernhistoryproject.org]
(Score: 3, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:49PM (4 children)
One of the people heavily involved in creating the UN is only a couple of degrees of separation from me, because he was married to one of my great-aunts. We've never heard of anything remotely of the sort of what your link describes. So either he was extremely good at keeping his mouth shut (his wife certainly wasn't good at keeping quiet), or your link is simply uninformed conspiracy theorizing.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:25PM (3 children)
See how great they are, they helped herald a welfare state [spectator.co.uk] FFS! [theguardian.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @02:54AM (2 children)
I was unable to read past the first paragraph of your link to The Spectator when I realized they were raising that argument as a serious identification of a harm of socialist programs.
The problem that immediately jumps out is that it fails to deal with the effect that capitalism has on prices, including the price of labor. This effect of capitalism is useful to us when we are talking about commodities.
We are not actually talking about commodities when we are talking about labor. We are talking about human beings. This will become evident when we consider the effect of the price of labor decreasing past the amount of money an average member of the working class would need to survive above poverty level.
It would be a profoundly disturbing proposition to suggest that human beings, as in their very lives, are a commodity--at least to somebody who is opposed to slavery.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @09:54AM (1 child)
Not true, they're identifying the rationale that led to socialist programs. Elitists have been the same the world over throughout history and note elitist leftys no longer care about the white working class. Not now that they can cynically exploit other marginalised groups by preventing whites as an oppressor class to gain power. Did they ever care at all? No, they wanted them dead! Now look at every socialist regime in history and see the same pattern repeat.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:32PM
This is what identity politics is for. People will call you a racist for saying this, but it is absolutely true. The majority of the working class in the USA is white, and identity politics seeks to divide the working class against itself along racialist lines.
I fail to see any states where the means of production are owned by the workers. I see many examples of Stalinism etc and control of the means of production by bureaucracies and authoritarian dictatorships. Stalinism etc could not ever have realized Marx and Engels' vision, because they did not embody the principles that were logically derived from the inherent contradictions of capitalism.
Perhaps the confusion arises because socialism must come from an enlightened working class. It cannot be enforced from above.
This may sound cliche to a reader of wswswswsws. Workers need to form rank-and-file committees and organize with rank-and-file committees internationally. Global socialism must supersede the anachronistic idea of a nation with borders, because global socialism's fight is against global capitalism, which has already superseded the idea of nations with borders. Indeed, the state of most governments is as a puppet organ of the international capitalist class. I am suggesting some kind of socialist syndicalism.
(Score: 5, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:16PM (22 children)
In other news, Donald Trump deports the Statue of Liberty back to France. Say's we don't need her anymore.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:20PM (15 children)
LOL [dailycaller.com]
(Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:38PM (2 children)
Ohh....scary liberals "weaponized" one of the great symbols of Liberty in our nation. By pointing out that Republicans are now opposed to it....
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:59PM
You didn't read TFA then? If I stick a plaque with an Adam Smith quote on the Lenin statue in Seattle, would communists then be opposed to communism because they disagree with the text?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:04PM
Oh, the Statue of Liberty as a symbol was already turned into a farce after 9/11. You had to go through metal detectors, bomb sniffing dogs, manual pat-down, and other humiliations to even get on the ferry to take you to Liberty Island. Some symbol of freedom that was.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:47PM (11 children)
Scared person just so afraid of brown people taking der jerrrbs they forget where they came from. This black/white method of viewing reality is stupid. No one is saying we need completely open borders to let anyone and everyone in, but what Trump is doing now is just downright evil. First they came for the immigrants and you did not mind because you are a "fuck you got mine" type of person. Then they came for the liberals and you cheered. Just wait till your job gets outsourced / replaced with legal H1Bs and maybe you'll start to understand more about the free in freedom.
Nationalism and populism are a nasty pair.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:01PM (10 children)
Maybe but not as nasty as socialism or open borders.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:39PM (9 children)
More stupidity, what is the point in discussing anything with you fools?
Just keep that hate train rolling, eventually you'll drag us all into hell.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:43PM (8 children)
You're not discussing, you're projecting and name calling.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:42PM (7 children)
Because your points are tired and lame. There is nothing to discuss, you just want to derail the conversation into an argument about societys evolution.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:17PM (6 children)
No, the claim was that enforcing the law is somehow a violation of the principles on which the US was founded as represented by the Statue of Liberty. That claim was wrong! [inthepastlane.com] Your attempts to reframe the argument and hurl insults do not a victory make.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:29PM (5 children)
If you can't understand why the massive amount of xenophobia being pushed on to you is a bad thing then you are beyond help. You are being manipulated just like the Germans were manipulated by the Nazis. Ramp up hateful untrue rhetoric to gain popular support for evil shit.
Personally I believe you conservatives will find your moral centers before shit gets too out of hand. I really hope my optimism isn't misplaced.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:09PM (1 child)
¿Qué? [youtube.com] Illegal immigration was an escalating situation, families entering at designated (lawful) port were not arrested or separated. Every president in living memory has increased border security in response to increases in illegal immigration.
The evidence for these claims has yet to materialise.
I'm not a conservative.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @01:38AM
It really is hard to argue with someone smart enough to convince themselves of bullshit. I'm sorry you're stuck in some conservative fantasy. Maybe you have a more specific identifier for your political ideology, but "conservative" is not Republican so you fit in that little box just fine.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @11:37PM (2 children)
As somebody who grew up in a conservative household (and then was tempted by the Evil One and turned into a librul), I think your optimism is misplaced. You might be underestimating the evils that a right-wing authoritarian can justify. Their moral compass operates on completely different principles from what you may be accustomed to. Instead of the needle of the compass being affected by evidence, critical thinking, philosophy, and ethics, their compass orients towards right-wing authoritarian leaders.
Have you read Altemeyer? Trump is the right-wing authoritarian leader in charge, in both a real and a sociological sense. If Dear Leader says that the sky is purple, the sky has always been purple.
I was skeptical of "Literal Hitler." However, I believe we are, in fact, rapidly moving from from "it can't happen here" to "it is happening here."
There is literally nothing Trump can say that is too ridiculous, too egregiously incorrect, too unbelievable, or too blasphemous to bring his RWA followers out of their trance. (Though it is not impossible. Our runaway might have actually woken up. It is just not something that happens at scale.) Consider that the Jews who persecuted Jesus in the mythology were right-wing authoritarians. Jesus could well return, demonstrate his identity with miracles, and they would point to language in Revelation and determine that he is the anti-Christ unless RWA leaders say that he's the legitimate second coming to the messiah. As for the probability of RWA leaders accepting a second coming of their messiah as authentic, again see the story of the Jews persecuting Jesus.
Then meditate on the sheer inanity that their holy book itself contains an example (among others) of the folly of RWA followers, and they are unable to generalize the moral of the story and see how this may apply to them personally.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 21 2018, @05:13PM (1 child)
What? Oh, my friend, there is so much self-deception going on here. "It is happening here" is what you think Trump has done? Where have you been the last 20 years? Have you blithely whistled past the reality, not supposition, nor hearsay, the reality that the US government tortures people as a matter of policy? We hanged Nazis and Japanese as war criminals for that. Have you blithely whistled past the fact that the NSA watches and listens into everything you say and do? We fought the Cold War, saying that kind of thing was the province of the Stazi and the KGB and it was why we had to beat them.
We have been in upside-down world for some time, and the MSM and the Wall Street Banks and the rest of the lizard people want you to believe that it's Trump that has brought all this about. Nonsense!
You could take it back even further with J. Edgar Hoover's FBI or the Tuskegee experiments or the Rockefellers machine-gunning men, women, and children down in broad daylight for simply not wanting to work for their slave wages anymore.
So, please, kindly take your head out of your ass and recognize that the real enemy is the same one it's been for a while, if not always, the power-elite playing their little ego games with our lives as their playthings. If you really want to put a stop to all this stuff, stop them.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @08:20PM
Get off your arrogant, presumptive high horse, bootlicker. What amazes me are the people who think Trump isn't being controlled by the lizards. That he's somehow special.
I consider that a novel accomplishment on the part of the boys up on the moon.
You first.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @08:21PM
Actually, it does seem to me to be the right time to send the Statue back to France. Maybe they can give it to someone more deserving.
(Score: 1, Troll) by jmorris on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:28PM (4 children)
nah, the Statue itself is fine. Lovely gift from the French people. The stupid poem some (((usual suspects))) stuck on the pedestal is another story. The inversion of the meaning of the Statue of Liberty from Liberty shining a beacon of liberty to a benighted unfree world into some sick "dump your shit on us world, we love being shit on!" nonsense needs to go.
Import the Third World, become the Third World. Assimilation, when possible, is a slow process. Time to close the door for a few generations and attempt to assimilate what we now have and/or encourage the ones who can't/won't assimilate to go home.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:33PM (1 child)
You do realize that it was all those immigrants from Third World "shit hole" countries who made America great, right? Right?!?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 20 2018, @10:58PM
Who made America... what?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @12:13AM
As if one of Yahweh's followers could ever comprehend what Ishtar [yahushua.net] stands for!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 21 2018, @03:55PM
man somebody's off their meds today