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Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:
Political polarization among Americans has grown rapidly in the last 40 years—more than in Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia or Germany—a phenomenon possibly due to increased racial division, the rise of partisan cable news and changes in the composition of the Democratic and Republican parties.
That's according to new research co-authored by Jesse Shapiro, a professor of political economy at Brown University. The study, conducted alongside Stanford University economists Levi Boxell and Matthew Gentzkow, was released on Monday, Jan. 20, as a National Bureau of Economic Research working paper.
In the study, Shapiro and colleagues present the first ever multi-nation evidence on long-term trends in "affective polarization"—a phenomenon in which citizens feel more negatively toward other political parties than toward their own. They found that in the U.S., affective polarization has increased more dramatically since the late 1970s than in the eight other countries they examined—the U.K., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Switzerland, Norway and Sweden.
"A lot of analysis on polarization is focused on the U.S., so we thought it could be interesting to put the U.S. in context and see whether it is part of a global trend or whether it looks more exceptional," Shapiro said. "We found that the trend in the U.S. is indeed exceptional."
Using data from four decades of public opinion surveys conducted in the nine countries, the researchers used a so-called "feeling thermometer" to rate attitudes on a scale from 0 to 100, where 0 reflected no negative feelings toward other parties. They found that in 1978, the average American rated the members of their own political party 27 points higher than members of the other major party. By 2016, Americans were rating their own party 45.9 points higher than the other party, on average. In other words, negative feelings toward members of the other party compared to one's own party increased by an average of 4.8 points per decade.
The researchers found that polarization had also risen in Canada, New Zealand and Switzerland in the last 40 years, but to a lesser extent. In the U.K., Australia, Germany, Norway and Sweden, polarization decreased.
More information: Levi Boxell et al, Cross-Country Trends in Affective Polarization, (2020). DOI: 10.3386/w26669
(Score: 5, Insightful) by edIII on Monday January 27 2020, @10:50PM (42 children)
Not at all. It's bipartisan, tripartisan, allpartisan, omnipartisan, whateverpartisan. You assume my "tribe" to be the opposite, and therefore partisan. That's faulty fucking logic, and emblematic of the problem.
What do I hate again? Republicans? Conservatives? Far left liberals? Libertarians? No. TRUMP & CORRUPTION. That's what I hate, and what I lament about the morally bankrupt conservatives is the outright refusal to acknowledge and deal with reality:
Trump is a fucking criminal, and a worthless piece of shit as an exemplar of Christian values. From day on of this fucking dumpster fire of an administration, it's been a reorg of the swamp, corruption at the highest levels, his demon spawn using our tax dollars to create more wealth, would-be-influencers spending tons of money at his properties, and the outright stated goal of destroying the government infrastructure we currently have with placements of corrupt wealthy donors with goals mutually exclusive with the mission statements of their departments. I could go on, but any reasonable person inside and outside of America can see the corruption. Especially outside, because those same problems have been pervasive in countries we derided previously.
So when an entire group of people decide to deny reality, for deeply partisan reasons fundamentally associated with the deprivation of the others sides voice, I will call them out on their bullshit. There is nothing Christian about Trump, nor the actions of this administration, and Conservatives will have to deal with the loss of their respect for some time to come.
You don't seem to have a handle on the magnitude of the loss that Conservatives are facing. That denial of reality means to the rest of us (all other tribes), that you've willingly abandoned all principles in order to win at all costs. Nothing could be a more abject failure to serve the people. Pick; Religion or Politics. Either one, Conservatives follow a fake and hollow leader that so very clearly embodies none of the traits they espouse as honorable and decent.
The Emperors New Clothes is what this era will be referred to by historians.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday January 27 2020, @11:34PM
Stop hating Trump, he's a transient nobody.
Hating corruption is enough and corruption will outlast Trump (letting aside that Trump didn't "invent" it, he is only using it).
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @12:29AM (29 children)
The hey should be applauded for publishing the truth, it's so rare in Christian circles.
Planned parenthood needs to start going through their clients records and cross index them with voting registration lists. Republican, had an abortion - "hi, we would like to talk to you about abortion rights and your hypocrisy." Just the rumour that they have such a list might get some Republicans talking about how abortion isn't the evil they make it out to be for political reasons.
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(Score: 3, Interesting) by deimtee on Tuesday January 28 2020, @03:22AM (26 children)
So you are apparently fine with doxxing and blackmail?
You don't know the circumstances of any particular abortion, and group punishments are unequivocally evil.
One job constant is that good employers have low turnover, so opportunities to join good employers are relatively rare.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday January 28 2020, @09:51AM (10 children)
IO don't see any suggestions of doxxing or blackmail suggested.
Doxxing would be publishing the information publicly. Blackmail would be the threat to do so. Talking privately is neither of those things.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 28 2020, @12:01PM (2 children)
Blackmail is not done from a radio so get your head out of whatever ass's ass you have implanted it in.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @03:48PM
No, blackmail and intimidation are now done via Twitter. Just ask Trump.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday January 29 2020, @09:32AM
Perhaps the ass you pulled radio out of, because certainly it wasn't being discussed here.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 28 2020, @03:04PM (6 children)
"Gee, sure is a nice life you've got here. Be a real shame if everyone found out about that abortion wouldn't it"
"Gee, sure is a nice building you've got here. Be a real shame if it burned down wouldn't it"
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @04:05PM (4 children)
Hey, they aren't willing to practice what they preach, - "what would Jesus do?" - even Jesus publicly condemned the hypocrites. If they don't like it, they can always rewrite the bible again.
Or they can stop being hypocrites. Stand up for the rights of women to control their own bodies. Religions that don't allow that deserve to be publicly humiliated for their hypocrisy, same as politicians who publicly want lgbt to burn in hell but are themselves in the closet. Practice what you preach or STFU (stop preaching).
I can't believe how cowardly people have become. 10 years ago I was walking my dogs (this is post-transition but before my eyes went, so at 143 pounds and 5'7" I wasn't exactly an imposing figure). I turned the corner and saw what I first thought was a gang of people around one individual kicking a dog. Well, can't have that ...
As I got closer, I saw that it was a black guy pounding the crap out of another black guy, surrounded by about 20 other blacks cheering him on. So I got in the face of the guy doing the beating, while all the other white folk going home from the commuter train just turned their heads away as they passed by, studiously avoiding even being seen as noticing it.
What is wrong with you people? You only do right when it's at no personal risk? You won't intervene to stop violence because you might get hurt? Kind of stupid logic - someone else is getting hurt, wouldn't you want them to intervene if the situation were reversed?
Or is there also an element of racism? "It's just the way those people are." "They're not one of us, so I'm not getting involved." "We don't behave like that, so they deserve what they get."
Bullies always need to be confronted. When the cops showed up, they wanted me away from the mob, so I left, but what would have happened if I had done what cowards do and looked the other way because "don't get involved?"
Every white person who walked by without even stopping made me ashamed to be white. "White privilege" so quickly becomes "white cowardice."
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(Score: 2) by deimtee on Tuesday January 28 2020, @07:04PM (3 children)
I will stand by my assertion that group punishments are evil. You want to punish women who got abortions, for what other, probably unrelated, people are doing. You are evil.
...
As for the rest of your post, wow, I don't often see that level of unconscious racism. It's lucky you were there to take care of them poor darkies. /sarcasm.
One job constant is that good employers have low turnover, so opportunities to join good employers are relatively rare.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @08:47PM (2 children)
Groups that commit the crime, do the time. You drive the getaway car, you're still charged with the murder of the bank guard.
We're social beings, and we understand collective responsibility. It's when collective responsibility collapses, as it has in the case of the hypocrites who push against women's right to get an abortion but themselves procure abortions, that the sense of collective responsibility collapses. It becomes "one law for me and mine, another for the rest of you dirty scum."
The best way to deal with hypocrisy is to expose it. All the anti-abortionists who like the thump the bible need to learn that Jesus exposed the hypocrites because he hated them with a passion. You simply cannot be a hypocrite and a christian according to the bible.
And if we throw away the bible, then where's their basis for undermining a woman's right to control her own body? There is none. Same as nobody is telling them that everyone has to get an abortion, nobody should be saying that nobody can have an abortion. It's my body, my life - abortion, euthanasia, sex change,sexual orientation, nobody else has a right to tell me what to do with my body.
People who have had abortions or procured abortions for someone they got pregnant and still say that others don't have a right to an abortion are hurting those who want abortions. We see it all the time with both anti-abortion laws and withholding funding for sex education and contraception.
The Hyde Amendment needs to go, as do all other anti-abortion laws. They are causing needless suffering. If exposing hypocrites is part of that process, "pour encourager les autres" to be a bit less hypocritical, hey, don't be a hypocrite. Be honest about why it was necessary in your case, and encourage compassion and abortion services for others in the same situation.
Or don't. But this is 2020 - do you really believe that anything can be kept a secret? All those fake "family planning clinics" that are there only to try to coerce women into not getting abortions by such devious tactics as showing other people's unltrasounds and saying "see - this is your baby, you're too far along to get an abortion anyway" are committing fraud.
On the other hand, since they're very careful not to go over the line into actually offering real medical care, they can sell their "client lists" - and if someone gets them one way or another it's not a HIPPA violation. So perhaps the best way to end that scam is to leak their client lists. Maybe that will get google to stop donating free advertising to them. At the very least, it will make people more aware that there are fake "clinics" out there who don't have women's best interests at heart, same as they don't have any other child's interest at heart after birth. When it comes to helping a woman and child, there are plenty of Christians who become ultra-libertarians. "Food stamps? Quit sponging off my tax dollars" - even though poor nutrition early in life results in a lifetime of extra costs to society.
The anti-abortionists are bullies, and deserve to be treated as such. That includes the women who, by their silence, encourage the curtailment of a basic civil right - the right to control your own body.
They're in the same boat as someone who sees violence in front of them and yet doesn't intervene, but still says they're against violence. They're not, not really.
Which brings us to your final innuendo. I was not wrong to intervene when I saw a mob beating on one person. The fact is, when it's black-on-black violence, most whites are chickenshit. The bystander effect [wikipedia.org] (better labelled as bystander apathy) kicks into high gear.
People are sometimes asked how they would act in hypothetical situations, such as when someone if being attacked. Oftentimes, it's "I would have acted differently." But that's just wishful thinking. I know I would act because I don't even hesitate to weigh out the pros and cons - and neither should anyone else. Someone is getting beaten up - you need to try to stop it, end of discussion. Same as if you're the one getting beaten up, you want others to try to intervene, not dither about whether it's too risky. When you dither, you put yourself at greater risk because you can't catch everyone else off-balance. You certainly don't want to give them the chance to assess the situation and realize that you're alone. And you don't want to give yourself the chance to be afraid and perhaps reconsider your options.
I intervene because it is the right thing to do. I learned as a kid that bullies will beat the crap out of you either way, so might as well do the right thing. It makes them think twice the next time they want to beat up on someone.
After all, bullies are the second-biggest cowards going. The biggest? Those who try to defend not intervening, because they know deep down that they would cut and run in a second.
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(Score: 2) by deimtee on Tuesday January 28 2020, @09:34PM (1 child)
That's a big wall of text, which entirely misses the point.
I don't care about the bible, and I am a pro-liberty, pro-choice, atheist.
I have an ethical objection to group punishments.
You are advocating ruining peoples lives for something other people are doing. Do you really think some young girl who was raped and had an abortion has any control over what the bible thumpers are doing? Your blackmail won't work because she doesn't have that control. So you want to out her and fuck up her life because you can't tell the difference between an individual and some nebulous group you object to.
Let's get a bit more personal here. You've repeatedly stated in the past that many transsexuals are sex workers. I don't know if it's legal where you are, but if it isn't, should the cops arrest you for soliciting? Or if it is legal, should we just call you a whore?
One job constant is that good employers have low turnover, so opportunities to join good employers are relatively rare.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @10:06PM
You totally missed the point. There are two different groups, and only one are hypocrites. As for calling me a whore, I've been called far worse, and no, I've never been a sex worker. Though one of my sisters did say I dressed like a prostitute because I had the top 3 buttons of my top open in 90 degree weather. Or maybe it was the 2" hoop earrings? Probably both. My reaction? "Works for me." When it's 90 degrees in the shade I'm going to dress for the weather. Top and skirt. Maybe a sun hat. Sandals or barefoot in the grass beside the sidewalk.
Hardly makes me a whore. But it also doesn't invalidate that many transsexuals engage in the sex trade. Two different groups - those who do and those who don't. Same as anti-abortionists who have procured abortions, and those who haven't. Only the first group are self-entitled hypocrites.
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(Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday January 29 2020, @09:27AM
You're making assumptions not suggested by OP.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @03:13PM (14 children)
I have no problem with "doxxing". I've posted all my contact information online in threads where people whine that they're "being doxxed" because someone published their address. They seem to have forgotten that we used to have a free book delivered to every door with everyone's name, address, and phone number in it.
People have become such cowards, afraid to stand up for what they believe.
Second, I did NOT say to publish th records, just to let the Republican voters know that they exist as a nuclear option and to back off if they don't want their hypocrisy exposed in fighting abortion when so many republican men and women have benefited from abortions.
Or are you against exposing hypocrisy and in continuing to put women's health and lives in danger? Are you, perhaps, someone who's taken a hypocritical stand. I've seen enough "abortion is wrong - but my case is different and God is okay with it because Jeebus" stupidity. I would have no problem exposing the leaders who engage in this crap.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2, Informative) by khallow on Tuesday January 28 2020, @06:17PM (13 children)
And you could get your name taken out of that book. Private numbers [wikipedia.org] are a thing!
Like standing up for the right to change their phone number when a bunch of idiots start calling it? Doxxing can result in your phone number becoming useless.
Even the threat would generate numerous felony charges from inappropriate use of medical information and blackmail, which is worse than some people being hypocrites.
This is an example of how polarization gets worse. The other side is so bad we must blackmail the voting public. Exposing the leaders is one thing - there are ways to do that which don't involve committing vast numbers of felonies. You went beyond that because you perceived the issue as being so important that a important rule could be broken.
So what happens when the other side of US politics now has that mass rule breaking as an issue to justify their next wave of shenanigans? This would just escalate the polarization.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @06:58PM (1 child)
Actually, you-had to pay to get your number removed from the standard phone book - But there were always other sources.
Also, we have caller ID, and you can tell your phone to not let through any call without a caller ID, or even just allow from a whitelist. It's not 1980 any more. My phone number is on the net - I haven't experienced a wave of crank calls - just the usual scams, and I make it a point to ask them what the weather is like in Mumbai or Hyalabad. Waste their time so they have less free time to call someone else. It's just me doing my civic duty to combat crime while having a bit of fun pissing off the scammers.
The only problem with that is eventually you get on assorted blacklists so the scammers stop calling, but I'm okay with that too.
As for the rest, people have been revealed to have had or procured an abortion, have AIDS, etc., and if it's not procured from a medical provider and the person voluntarily disclosed it, there's no violation of the law. In other words, those fake clinics that try to dissuade people from getting abortions are a prime source of such information. They don't provide any medical services, they know who has come through their doors, etc. The ultrasound images that they show people are fake, trying to convince women that they are too far along to get a pregnancy, and they don't have to meet HIPPA standards because they are not real clinics providing medical advice. They're very careful not to cross that legal threashold.
So your "vast number of felonies " just went down the shitter, since the fake clinics will sell the information quite legally, and thanks to "parallel construction ", even if the original source was a real clinic, if you get a second copy of the information legally, it's all legal. Ask the cops - they do it all the time. ,
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(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 28 2020, @10:09PM
Sorry, it's not true in the US, medical information no matter the source is subject [cornell.edu] to HIPAA (a person, who knowingly gathering and maliciously revealing medical information that can be individually identified, can be fined up to $250k and 10 years in prison). I bet Canada is the same way.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @08:57PM (10 children)
By the way, remember the part in the Bible where Jesus was confronted by the Pharisees about an adulterous woman and he said "Let you who is without sin cast the first stone." After being bugged some more, he began writing in the sand, and one by one they left? He was listing their individual sins for everyone to see.
If it's good enough for Jeebus ... then it should be good enough for atheists to treat Christians that way too. Many are just modern-day Pharisees anyway.
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(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 28 2020, @09:57PM (9 children)
Well, how about you commit a few thousand felonies of that and tell me how it works out for you.
And what should happen if someone does that to you? Where your hypocrisy gets publicly revealed while theirs doesn't?
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @10:19PM (8 children)
Someone buys me clients list from one of those fake family planning clinics that actually doesn't offer any medical services because it's run by a group of anti-abortion activists and doesn't need a license to operate, just "offers counseling ". Where's the felony?
No laws broken at any point.
But now that many health care providers use google to store their data, you can expect to see all sorts of medical information to surface.
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(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 28 2020, @10:55PM (7 children)
Public figures have far less defenses against such things. And you are deliberately collecting medical information.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @11:56PM (6 children)
Think of it the same as all those tv shows where actors pretend to get married. It's not real. They don't need to get a divorce from their current spouse to go through the fake wedding ceremony.
And you could probably buy information from some internet company that gave you the information on anyone who searched for a real abortion clinic. That's not medical information either. Same as they were selling ads targeting suicidal people.
Your searches are public information. You consent to that when you do a search. As well as your information being sold.
Now if the republicans were in Europe they would have a certain "right to be forgotten ", but in the US freedom of speech applies to everyone who isn't a protected minority - and abortion is not a protected minority - thanks to republicans, including those who have procured abortions while trying to deprive them to others.
And there's nothing to stop such a list being posted on wikileaks or a similar site outside the US. Russia would probably develop such a list just to have leverage. Anything to stir up crap.
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(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday January 29 2020, @12:07AM (5 children)
Actually it is.
Drug stores are also subject to laws like HIPAA.
It's still medical information and they're still subject to the laws of the land.
The moment you link medical conditions to identifiable people, it becomes medical information.
See the pattern?
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday January 29 2020, @12:51AM (4 children)
That you bought a box of Kleenex or Tampax or diapers is not medical information, even if bought at a drugstore. Even it it's linked to you, it's still not medical information just because it happens in a drugstore.
Nothing the fake family planning shops do is medical information because they are not, by law, allied to perform any medical services. Non-medical services are simply not medical information. If they were, pro-choice folk could get them shut down for providing medical services without a license. But since they aren't medical providers and are very careful not to provide medical services ... their data is not protected by HIPPA. Find me one that claims to be covered by HIPPA and I'll happily forward the information to Planned Parenthood. They would love to shut the fakes down for medical fraud.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday January 30 2020, @01:56PM (3 children)
Nobody said they were.
If you use that data to reconstruct medical conditions and identify those medical conditions with people, then you do fall under HIPAA. You know, what I've been saying all along.
Nor did anyone say they were. Awful lot of straw men in your post.
Wrong. Again, it's the handling of medical information not the providing of medical services that triggers HIPAA.
Let me give you a real world example. As I've mentioned in the past, I do seasonal accounting work for a tourism/resort company in Yellowstone National Park. A number of years back, I decided to work winters in the park as well. That means working whatever is available. For about half a dozen years, that meant working security for a few months a year. Mostly that meant being a professional witness and shoveling a lot of snow.
Every so often, in part because my location was barely high enough elevation to cause medical problems in some visitors and new employees, I would witness or assist guests and employees experiencing medical problems. To protect ourselves from liability, detailed reports of any such interactions were written up and submitted to my bosses. Even though I wasn't providing medical services, that information had to be kept under wraps more so than normal guest/employee interactions because of the medical information involved. And HIPAA was one of the big reasons why.
In other words, you don't have to provide medical services in order to be subject to HIPAA. Selling candy bars or being a fake service doesn't immunize you from HIPAA requirements.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Thursday January 30 2020, @03:54PM (2 children)
Nope. If you are not a covered entity [hhs.gov], you are not governed by HIPPA.
Are you a health care provider, a health plan, or a health clearinghouse, or a worker or contractor for one of them? No? Then you are not bound by HIPPA.
So threatening, say, a newspaper for violating HIPPA is ridiculous. Next time do some research before spouting off. You'll look less stupid.
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(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday January 31 2020, @01:00AM (1 child)
In your scenario the entity that collects medical data to shame conservatives counts as a health clearinghouse and hence, would be a covered entity.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Friday January 31 2020, @02:39AM
If are you just being stupid for the sake of argument yet again. You ALWAYS do this. Your reputation of arguing despite the facts is well known.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 28 2020, @04:30AM
Your thinking such a finding would be surprising is indicative of the bubbles in America driving everybody to absurd partisanship. More than 70% of the US is Christian. The only way Christians would not make up the majority is if there was some really huge number of non-Christians having abortions. Whereas far from it, blacks account for the plurality (and nearly the majority) of abortions and also have substantially higher [pewforum.org] rates of religiosity than whites (or any other group for that matter).
The reason an organization would report such a stat is to incentivize more Christians to argue from restrictions on abortion. Paradoxical if you don't understand. It's just in-group out-group stuff, like increasingly everything in America. If the out-group are killing their babies, who cares? If the in-group are, that's a different matter.
(Score: 2) by Username on Tuesday January 28 2020, @02:55PM
Eh, this is where identity politics fail. Not all christians are the same. The catholic church is against abortion and considers it murder, a motal sin. The church also considers anyone who is baptized catholic, as catholic forever. Even if the person doesn't want to be associated with them. A lot of people do fake their catholic faith to get votes, like Joe Biden, only to attend church and get excommunicated since they support abortion and didn't realize what the church is about. He should have went to a protestant church, most of them support abortion.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 28 2020, @04:48AM (10 children)
It starts with you. You're being hateful.
I think it is because you've been lied to. Trump really, truly, isn't corrupt.
Look at the supposed benefits. His fortune seems to have dropped from about $4 billion to $3 billion during his unprofitable adventure in politics. Every other politician is suspiciously getting rich: Obama, Sanders, Kerry, Clinton(s), Biden, many others, and even some republicans. Sanders is particularly interesting. He has never worked a non-elected job and has never worked a high-paying job, yet he owns 3 houses. Hmmm. At least we know where Trump got his billions from.
All the "dirt" on Trump has been piddly shit. He hired family, on lame-ass pitiful government salaries, taking them away from fancy-ass executive jobs that were raking in the money. (BTW, he donates his own salary) He DID NOT withhold aid from Ukraine, unlike Obama and Biden, so WTF on that one... and anyway it is his duty to pressure other countries into helping investigate corrupt Americans like the Biden family. That "emoluments" bullshit (what a fancy-ass word there to scare people) is trivial in size and anyway HE DONATES THE PROFIT.
(Score: 4, Informative) by edIII on Tuesday January 28 2020, @05:56AM (7 children)
Yep. Those new clothes the Emperor is wearing sure are spiffy! Yes, sirreee.
Exactly what I mean. The complete inability to face reality due to partisan reasons. If you're not partisan, meaning a Trump supporter or conservative, than you're just simply oblivious and ignorant in the same fashion as Flat Earthers and those convinced Elvis is alive in a relationship with Ol' Squatch.
The emoluments clause isn't bullshit, and represents a core principal of my country. Yes, he very much fucking did, withhold aid from the Ukraine, as well as conspired to do so until his personal self-serving demands are met, and then finally delivered the actual ultimatum (quid pro quo) personally himself. That's only one of the glaring fucking issues too.
You're the perfect example of somebody suffering Trump Derangement Syndrome. What is the line? How bad does something have to be for him to do, before you find the moral and ethical impetus to admit he is the piece of shit that he is?
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 28 2020, @06:52AM (6 children)
Can we at least find an example of Trump jaywalking? That would be worse than what he is accused of. Somebody could swerve to avoid him, and then crash into a parked car.
There is no emolument anyway. Trump does not take a salary from a foreign land. He doesn't even work for the hotels that foreigners are staying in; he just does brand licensing and investment. Can the man have an investment? Any normal 401K plan would include foreign shit; is that emoluments to you? Seriously, this emoluments claim is unreasonable.
Were you OK with Obama withholding aid to Ukraine? Obama never delivered the weapons. He blocked them until he left office.
Were you OK with Biden threatening $1,000,000,000 in aid to Ukraine, demanding that a prosecutor be fired (the one investigating Hunter Biden) immediately in exchange for the aid not being blocked?
It seems standard practice to withhold aid from Ukraine. Why is it suddenly an impeachable offense?
In the USA, our president oversees both the state department (foreign relations) and the federal prosecution. Both are under him in the org tree. He is our head of state. It is thus proper for him to assist his prosecutors by pressuring foreign leaders to cooperate. Not that Trump denied aid, but he had the right to do so. Trump also has the duty to ensure that prosecutors prosecute. In other words, if pressuring Ukraine with denial of aid would help to get the Biden corruption exposed for prosecution, then Trump has the duty to do it. The fact that Trump might personally benefit (not that he would... LOL, Biden???) is immaterial.
To make this clear with a non-presidential example: Suppose that Trump had been elected mayor of NYC. Suppose that 5th Avenue was torn up by a parade of heavy equipment. Trump lives on 5th Avenue. Is it corruption to fix up 5th Avenue, since Trump would personally benefit, or is the mayor actually supposed to keep the street in good repair? This is pretty much the Ukraine complaint... except that Trump is probably happy to have Biden win the primary.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 28 2020, @10:04AM (5 children)
Holy fuck.... Trump derangement syndrome right fucking there. The money was to be provided by LAW. But Trump stopped it in defiance of the LAW until his personal request was fulfilled.
This is like police officer would be ordered to escort your tax refund to you but then instead of giving you the money, they hold on to it until you do "a favor" for them instead. No favor, no fucking money. Then the police get caught and you are like "oh noes, poor corrupt police officer, so difficult life, why that asshole couldn't just do the favor instead?"
Yeah, Biden could have told Obama to veto the bill and the aid would be halted? That's per fucking law. Trump could have vetoed the bill too, but it was approved by everyone so his veto was worth fuck all.
The president has to follow the LAW. Trump has NO discretion about this military aid. But he fucking *defied* the law. And he *defined* the law for his *personal* gain. It wasn't for betterment of America, that's for fucking sure.
Can Trump name one fucking corrupt Ukrainian official?? NONE! That's exactly how much he cares about corruption. He fired the ambassador that was putting pressure on Ukraine to cleanup corruption in its institutions instead.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 28 2020, @06:40PM (1 child)
First of all, Trump derangement syndrome means an unreasonable obsessive hatred of Trump. That's you, not me.
Under the law, Trump can withhold aid. Fuck, he could drone people in Ukraine. He is the chief executive and commander in chief, in case you didn't know.
You really think it is just fine for Biden to abuse government resources (US aid to Ukraine) to stop an investigation into his own corruption? Come on. That is corruption on top of corruption. That, right there, is *personal* gain. It wasn't for betterment of America, that's for fucking sure.
Meanwhile, for betterment of America, we need to stop the Biden corruption. Trump has no *personal* gain from that, because it might make Biden lose the primary. It's personal loss. Trump would be happy to run against Biden. Anyway, since when is running for president an immunity from investigation? Obama investigated Trump, going well beyond what was legal. Of course Biden should be investigated, for the betterment of America, and it is a duty to make Ukraine cooperate.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by edIII on Tuesday January 28 2020, @08:36PM
You're definitely suffering from Chronic Trump Derangement Syndrome. You know how you can tell? Replace Trump with Obama and ask yourself if the Republicans wouldn't have been foaming at the mouth demanding Obama actually be shot for treason? Not just impeachment, but charges of treason.
The only reason why you're fighting so hard to justify criminal and corrupt behavior is tribalism. When that's pointed out to you, you're response is either tribalism too, or this amazing disconnect with reality where you spin criminal actions as positive ones. There are two responses to your insanity; Joining it in your retarded echo chamber of denialism, or stand back in horror as we realize you've all gone fucking insane.
You're so far gone it's impossible for you to see criminal and corrupt behavior for what it is.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 28 2020, @06:40PM (2 children)
Two obvious rebuttals: Trump does have some discretion despite the claims to the contrary (such as, for example, the Ukraine doing things contrary to important US interests such as attacking the US). The issue at hand is whether Ukrainian failure to investigate a potential act of corruption by a high ranking US official, former VP Biden, counts as such an issue. I gather the Democrat position is no and the Republican position is a waffling yes.
And two, the two Bidens' actions being investigated lawfully are in the national interest even if the insistence on the investigation were done for Trump's advantage. We can't after all, expect Joe Biden's allies to call for the investigation. Such things are left to his enemies to do so. It would be nationally suicidal if we excused criminal activity if you could show some enemy had something to gain by any investigation and prosecution.
It'd be different, if Trump was being accused of violating the Bidens' constitutional rights for personal gain. But the Democrats have been very particular about not going there, perhaps because they don't want to risk there being some fire in that smoke.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Tuesday January 28 2020, @08:25PM (1 child)
Actually, you're a little wrong there. The real issue at hand isn't whether Trump can fight corruption, and can ask for an investigation. It's about how he did it. I agree that it's the President's job to do this, but not in a corrupt way.
Options:
1) Act like a strongman, deny aid, demand investigations into political rivals to receive aid.
2) Call a press conference. Announce that you are under the belief that an American politician acted improperly in the Ukraine, and that it's Biden. Publicly call upon the Ukraine to announce investigations where appropriate, the Department of Justice to conduct their investigations, and then bring up the matter before Congress asking them to investigate.
If he had properly delegated the job, and more importantly separated the job from the Congressionally mandated aid, and then stepped back and asked for the rest of us to do the job impartially to the best of our abilities... that would be one thing.
He didn't, and instead acted like a Mafia Don with threats and leverage. Which isn't really surprising at all giving the man's behavior, and such behavior is not appropriate for a US President. Ethically, Legally, or morally. This is not the foreign policy Americans should be proud of.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 28 2020, @10:27PM
Option 2 is gross and nasty. It is unmanly. It is impotent, weak, ineffective, and powerless. Such behavior is not appropriate for a US President. It would be an embarrassment for the nation.
Any president who would take option 2 is disqualified for holding office due to mental illness.
I damn well expect threats and leverage. Power is to be used. If you want an actor fag like Trudeau, move to Canada.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 28 2020, @06:21AM (1 child)
"That "emoluments" bullshit (what a fancy-ass word there to scare people) is trivial in size and anyway HE DONATES THE PROFIT."
Bullshit law to prevent politicians from abusing their power for personal gain? Seems like a reasonable law to restrain the "most powerful position in the world." Hope he's not scamming those donations like every other venture he scams. Or did you miss his charity scam? Or his misappropriation of campaign funds?
Personally I don't care how trivial the size of graft is, he is stealing millions and millions from the American public. It is disheartening to see a fellow citizen believing the transparent excuses for corruption. Guess that is what happens when you tie your personal identity so closely that admitting fault in your idol will mean invalidating your own existence.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 28 2020, @09:01PM
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