No link? For shame.
Full disclosure: I just soyled myself reading this thread, well done Sir! 2/2
So please stay independant
I voted for go free with freenode, but after reading this, I'm sold with stay independant.
Also, the fortigate at work is blocking pipedot.org, so I really need this site to keep working. I know you cannot help in that regard, but I figured casting this out into the ether will let the ghosts in the machine know my preference so I might damn them should they fail me.
Really, anything to keep the SN message getting to workers who should be working, must be done at any cost.
Also, the fortigate at work is blocking pipedot.org
Both sites are using Linode; odd that any access would be different. Maybe try HTTPS instead of HTTP?
Corporate proxys/firewalls such as Fortigate tend to block based on blacklists either provided by the supplier and/or maintained internally. As pipedot.org (and SN.org) is a tech news site, you should be able to ask your IT people to unblock it. It's possible that pipedot.org hasn't be classified yet, so is blocked by default (some places do that).
Having your own IRC service is absolutely not a guarantee that it won't be blocked by corporate filtering.
Today, soylentnews.org is seen as Information Technology so will probably never be blocked by most filtering policies.The web chat (chat.sylnt.org) is uncategorized. Most companies (if not all, in some regions) tend to BLOCK when it's uncategorized.CISO feels safer, as users will not go to the uncategorized Internet. Support/admins cry, as they have to micro manage all the exceptions for the end users.
Of course, asking your BOFH to open a site for you might not be a good idea so the best way to make sure it's not blocked is to ask to the vendors. Most of them allow this, either via a web page or through an email.Fortinet : http://docs-legacy.fortinet.com/cb/html/index.html #page/FOS_Cookbook/UTM/cb_utm_wf_url_check.html [fortinet.com]Websense : http://csi.websense.com/ [websense.com]ZScaler : http://zulu.zscaler.com/ [zscaler.com]Bluecoat : https://sitereview.bluecoat.com/sitereview.jsp [bluecoat.com](etc...)
Actually that does help me - thanks very much. It's quite hard digging up all those classification URLs for the different services, so I've bookmarked the above, Cheers.(I'm having a classification issue with one of my own domains).
I figured casting this out into the ether will let the ghosts in the machine know my preference so I might damn them should they fail me.
One thing people might want to consider is http://www.herdict.org/ [herdict.org] for keeping track of "Web blockages" - including deliberate local blocking of sites you care about. It's a bit crappy, but better than nothing, and I believe all the submitted data are free/open.
You can easily make an argument to unblock freenode as so many open source projects offer support there. If you cannot make an argument because your job has nothing to do with any of that, maybe you shouldn't waste the time, you're being paid for, on online chatting.
I recommend running an irc bouncer at home (I use znc with ssl enabled). I just connect to my home machine from work and have instance access to all the IRC networks and channels I'm logged in to. Also, since znc stays permanently connected to these channels it provides me with the backlog of conversation as soon as I connect to it showing everything I've missed since I was last connected.
Thanks, I'll see what I can set up.
Being able to write your own rules, log everything, manage your bots however you like, all that stuff is nice. Being able to turn the server off if there is something seriously bad (like a stolen credit card dump for example) is priceless.
I know the first thing I think of when I hear yet another batch of CC numbers or passwords are leaked is "Damn, I sure hope the chat network I frequent isn't still running!"
Huh. I guess I never thought of that. Here I was just thinking of the legal ramifications of having a bunch of potential legal problems with my channel and needing to be able to preserve data for the Feds. Good thing AC is here to point out the real dangers.
Legal ramifications of legal problems? That's a lot of legal. It is just...the luxury edition has so much more legal. It saddens me to think of you missing out.
But anyway, you can still run a bot so you can hand over the logs to the feds, even on freenode. It's just that I don't see the connection between that and turning off the server when there's a data breach somewhere, which is what I was rejoining.
AC was talking about using freenode (or equivalent service) and then that service got hacked and hackers got hold of our passwords and stuffs.
That's a danger.
Running our own IRC does not negate _that_ danger, though, as hackers who can hack freenode also can hack pipedot or any other domain name that we end up using, and if they are good enough, they may still get away with the paswords and stuffs.
I'm regularly on Freenode, the second soylent moved to the private server I stopped paying attention. I will not use a 3rd party server for this, IRC was originally thought to be the *independent* safe harbor. Everyone can gather in Freenode from soylent, pipedot and whoever else. Being bound to the good will of the soylent staff kind of defeats the purpose of a fallback channel. In terms of IRC it's freenode or nothing.
I totally agree. Like most nerds, I'm already on freenode. I'm not going to connect to another server just to join 1 channel. That is silly. And they're not going to do as good a job as freenode at managing the service...
Freenode itself was a group of ppl branching off the branches of http://www.efnet.org/ [efnet.org], which itself was a branch off the original IRC network( not to be confused with http://www.ircnet.org/ [ircnet.org] ), which closed due to malicious server joins etc.Ironically, there is a front page notice of server hacking on the EFNet website as I write this.Security (nick collisions, netsplits, DOS floods, etc) were why freenode, undernet, and many others branched off to begin with (and due to many other reasons I'm sure).
I'm just saying, it is possible that the SN IRC could become the beginnings of yet another improved IRC server codebase if some of the community felt strongly enough to pursue it.Maybe not, and that's fine too, but I don't want to be the one to hamstring a group of others who are motivated enough to try.
There are certainly some very real security concerns when running an IRC server, even if segregated or stand-alone. I don't know what the costs would be for bandwidth usage if we joined it to the freenode, or any other IRC network, or how we would pay for those costs under our current organization/structure. It might, however, be worth the effort, in particular if part of our community decided they would want to dive into the code to improve things. They could of course just dive into the ircd-seven code of freenode too (I have no idea what codebase the SN IRC is based on).
The more that things change, the more they stay the same.
We're actually using Charybdis on which ircd-seven is based ;-)
Exactly, nerds are the visitors we are shooting for anyway. It's easy to say go to channel X on freenode. When you tell them you can find the /. ripoff on that network/channel no one is going to join.
The IRC channel seems to be a huge distraction that sucks attention away from well thought out posts on lots of stories, in exchange for a never ending stream of banalities about bacon.
At any given time there are over a hundred people logged in on IRC, and our stories end up getting very thin discussion. I've seen stories scroll off the main page with no comments.
IRC saps the website of content. Because people only have so much time. But for SN to have and promote a IRC channel, simply steals intellectual effort and mind share away from the site and pushes it to a back channel. I'm not sure it is healthy for the site.
On the other hand, I realize that people are going to do what they want to do, they will find IRC somewhere if they want to. Judging from the content of the IRC channel, not much of it would be useful on the site. So having IRC for people to troll each other and vent may keep the site more cordial.
So I'm ambivalent at best.
Actually, it's soylent. Dogs don't know it's not bacon!
jONvZn nfakmckkmhqw [nfakmckkmhqw.com], [url=http://hztnakjqcleb.com/]hztnakjqcleb[/url], [link=http://oszfamgyrxdk.com/]oszfamgyrxdk[/link], http://pxidivanoyjl.com/ [pxidivanoyjl.com]
Haha, as a bacon/brussel sprout poster on the IRC channel, I understand your pov. TBH I think that once a lot of the stuff concerning the future of the site is settled, a lot of us will move out of the irc to post insightful things on the site instead. But for now, it's good way to get to know each other, offer help. I mean there are important things discussed there (and no, bacon is not one of them, despite its karma points, I agree with you).There has also not been too many stories posted recently. I don't know if it's a matter of lack of submissions or lack of acceptable submissions but to me that was one of the reasons I came down to the IRC channel, there just wasn't too much happening on SN (plus it went down at some point).
Either way, if it doesn't cost anything to run it, why not? At the very least it'll be useful for the admin and overload meets.
Agreed, there is a cohesion aspect to IRC, (as long as it doesn't turn into a clique or cabal.)
I think after the Drama ended, someone on IRC mentioned that what the site needs most is submissions, and today we see quite a few more, and the comments numbers are up as well.
Where else are we going to get updates on Poutine's negative karma score?
yes where else can old geezer like me go to make a fool of myself?
Agreed. Unfortunately, there's yet another possible use for IRC -- coordinating site governance and management. The problem is, of course, that IRC is pretty much custom-designed for poor communication, as the current soap opera illustrates. So, not only are these issues being handled (somewhat) out of public view, but they're being handled badly and hurriedly, because IRC also generates a false sense of urgency.
It's basically Twitter before there was Twitter.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Bacon is never banalities.
bacon++ # Team Bacon FTW!
There's tons of IRC channels for random wibble. Why do you need a SoylentNews one?
irc is a community inside a community... of course it is a good thing, particularly since nobody is forced to use it.
it's like an online water cooler where people can take a load off, where there is no awkward silence that can't be broken with a simple "poutine--", "!stats", "bacon++" or "s/foo/bar" (resulting in a certain character being thrown at you by one our much loved automated friends).
anyone that doesn't "get" #soylent obviously needs to do a lot less thinking, cos trying to understand anything that goes on there would drive anyone batty.
* SedBot offers critchy a /
mod this up!
There have been discussions about implementing single sign-on between the IRC server and the main site. That would be awesome, but we could never do it with Freenode.
So, let's say you're one of these 'youngsters' who have never heard of IRC, let alone used it.
Are we talking something like a shoutbox? Would it be a separate page? Something else entirely?
If you really, honestly, don't know what IRC stands for in this context, perhaps...
That wasn't so much the point as this being a case of 'let's all use a service that's popular with a certain age group'.
Fuck the certain age group. Now there I said it. I'm sure they love the dice beta anyways, so they're not bothering us here.
The site was down earlier, including the backup address. I went to pop on to the IRC server to see if there was any information there, but couldn't connect. Does running it yourself mean there will be a single point of failure for both?
Actually, none of the IRC servers were done. Someone messed with the DNS.
So yeah, the DNS was the real point of failure in this case.
very good point! Having a private server bound to this service kind of defeats the purpose of having an independent back channel.
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was saying anything in that direction, at all.
single point of failure because of dependent backchannel vs. independent backchannel...
Yes yes, you implied exactly that.
Correct. I misinterpreted what was being said.
Are there any costs to run this? I mean resources people etc.? If it's just up front and we've already done that cool but it takes someone's time for not much benefit then maybe we should drop it. Personally i love the logs etc but i could see how it would be an unnecessary burden although it is great for admins.
As a member of the IRC staff, yeah there are resources and costs (I know, because currently I'm running both servers - which will be moved to SN _IF_ the vote goes through) but it's not that much really.
There's quite a bit of work to be done but that's not an issue at all. We're volunteers, we do what we like. ;)
"entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity"
Ockam (attributed to him, but maybe he never said that version)
We already use phpbb for our forum. There is a mod for that forum that is an excellent chat/shoutbox. mchat could easily be added to the forum and now you have an equivalent of IRC with very little extra effort.
I'm actually fairly certain the forums are being discontinued... maybe we should have a community vote about this as well ;)
...to hope for some kind of IRC client that wasn't so visually difficult to read?
It's all the bloke that wrote mIRCs fault y'know. He added support for 'color' codes in mIRC which wasn't (still isn't?) part of the RFC spec for IRC, and before you knew it, every channel and its topic had mad rainbow ANSI style l33t speak text that no-one could read. At which point the grown-ups left and moved to moderated forums or private IRCDs etc.
Recently, I've been scouting around for a modern IRC client with accessibility features (good text-to-speech for example) but haven't had much luck of yet. I think it's mainly to do with IRC being seen as a 'legacy' technology, much like UseNet.
IIRC the first use of ascii color codes I saw was in PhoEnix script (or however the caps thing was for it) shortly followed by a plethora of channel bots using them. There was some win32 client that was pretty much the only game in town (I can't remember the name), and then mIRC and Pirc came along.
I saw your sig. I don't remember any ascii color codes being used for LambdaMoo until the win32 MUD clients came along!
I don't suppose any of you remember #war by any chance?
Here [wikipedia.org], help yourself. Don't thank me.
Actually, I probably won't, because what I mean is taking whatever they use at http://chat.sylnt.us/ [sylnt.us] and making it easier to read.
I've never really messed with IRC before, so it's all Greek to me, so to speak, so I'm not going to be able to be more specific than that.
I'm going to talk to Style as soon as possible to address these concerns, let's see if we can come up with a nice fix ;)
The IRC network is a bit of fun, and it's an enjoyable place to lurk. There seems to be plenty of users, and since most/all of the meetings and major decision making is conducted through it, I'd personally be a little reluctant to move it to a third party. It'll use trivial amounts of bandwidth and resources anyway.
There's also the issue of Freenode being blocked at many places of work.
You're reluctant to move it to a "third party" like freenode??
In terms of IRC, freenode is trustworthy, anything private is NOT.
I think (you'll have to ask Landon) our original intention was to be much like SlashNet, but better.
Hosting your own IRC gives you control and gives some options that we might not have with something like FreeNode. The outage from yesterday demonstrates the need to distribute the resources so that if the web site should go down, there is some chance of keeping IRC available.
FWIW, DNS and the site should be on at least two geo-redundant servers. IRC is probably not as mission critical, however if you have an active / standby instance in the same geo-redundant sites, you could switch over easily.
But IRC was available during the site outage... or am I missing something here?
(As soon as I couldn't reach the site, I went to chat.sylnt.us and watched as user after user connected and asked "is the site down?", in between random statements about bacon, cows, and poutine's karma.)
Correct, _both_ IRC servers were still running.
That would have been funny. I'm just sorry i missed out on all the fun.
So, you provided a choice for "Yeah, it's one of these, but I'm not telling you which one?" I'm so choosing that. Take that, The Man!
Perhaps you meant "MORE THAN one of the above"? :)
And at least I have the stones to admit it!
"This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane."
You censor worse than /. does. End of discussion.
mattie_p can't prove otherwise, either. Looking back on the log, all I did was give a simple criticism. Others complain worse and you don't ban them from the IRC.
Welcome to Soylent - where if you're not a profitable poster, you're just a hindrance, per mattie_p.
Khyber, I asked you to settle down several times on IRC. You did not. Shoot me an email and we can talk. ~mattie_p @ soylentnews . org
Nah, you censor, so there's nothing to talk about.
Censorship is bad, thus you are bad.
you seriously got a ban? Apparently I was right to stay away from the private server, no independence and even censorship... it really doesn't sound like spam
"you seriously got a ban? "
"Apparently I was right to stay away from the private server"
Yep. We should probably start leaving the site for another one, as well. The censorship and lacking independence is pretty much unacceptable from a 'community.'
Do spend a few minutes to get the details before you make a judgement. You can read the chat transcript yourself http://logs.sylnt.us/%23soylent/2014-03-13.html#22 :33:39 [sylnt.us]
It's still plain and simple censorship, no matter which way you try to reason yourself out of it.
The owners/operators of this site and IRC (and any other website that allows for commenting or IRC) have the right to control the commentary and participation. There is NO guarantee explicit or implied that any comments will be published or that anyone's participation will be guaranteed. This is not the US government or any other and therefor you do NOT have first amendment protection. If you don't like it, too bad, start your own website or IRC and exercise your childish ranting there.
"The owners/operators of this site and IRC (and any other website that allows for commenting or IRC) have the right to control the commentary and participation."
And I reserve the right to call them out for what they are. If your skin is that thin then this community will not last, that's pretty much guaranteed.
And if you can't take drunk ranting, your skin is beyond thin and you should probably just get off of the internet.
I notice the site mods and IRC mods have gone silent. Not a surprise. The truth hurts, doesn't it, boys?
You, my friend, can take your drunk ranting any place you like. I personally am not interested. (also not protected free speech)
"I notice the site mods and IRC mods have gone silent. Not a surprise. The truth hurts, doesn't it, boys?"
I would suppose they don't believe it is worth their time to argue with a drunk ranter and I agree.
Then I guess they don't need to find out about the nice vulnerabilities I've found while playing with the dev VM, since they don't want to talk to me.
Whomever figures out the exploit like I have can just destroy the site.
Now to go find someone willing to pay for that information.
Khyber, you were kick/banned from IRC for being generally disruptive. I understand you were frustrated from being kicked, but you were warned repeatedly to calm down. This ban only lasted a few days or so and you can now log in. Your claims of censorship are wildly inaccurate (notice you can post to the site and moderate).
What is your goal here? You've spent time contributing to the site, clearly you think it has merit. Now all it seems you care to do is to bring it down, spread mis-information, and make threats. Is this all some sort of "revenge" because you were kicked out temporarily from an chatroom?
" This ban only lasted a few days or so and you can now log in. Your claims of censorship are wildly inaccurate (notice you can post to the site and moderate)."
My censorship complaint is only about IRC, not the site.
"What is your goal here?"
To point out how thin your skin is. Generally disruptive? There's an /ignore feature for that, you know. Did the entire chat forget about that, or do you just have itchy trigger fingers after all the drama with Barrabas still?
"You've spent time contributing to the site"
And that's not likely to happen ever again. You guys are showed your true colors. All it takes is a little push and you all go wide-open on the throttle.
"Now all it seems you care to do is to bring it down, spread mis-information, and make threats."
You guys showed very quickly and easily how readily you're willing to unequally treat others. Poutine just gets karma-- but I get banned, and Poutine's trolling ALL THE TIME. Way to set an example. I knew it was going to happen and you proved me right.
Sorry, censorship is censorship is censorship. You can try to deflect from it, but the fact is, your unequal treatment amounts to exactly that. There's no mis-information here, at all.
"Is this all some sort of "revenge" because you were kicked out temporarily from an chatroom?"
No, this entire thing was a troll to get you to show your true colors and start putting cracks in the facade hiding your hypocrisy after the Barrabas incident.
And you've cracked admirably.
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