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acid andy (1683)
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Rationalistic, dualistic, vegan, cynical, scientific hippie
From where I'm sitting, it feels increasingly clear. Unless you're lucky enough to be living in Scandinavia, rich enough to live in the middle of your own nature reserve, or suffering from some kind of psychosis, you can probably see it too if you look around and think. Humanity has failed.
In countries like the USA, the UK or Australia, democracy doesn't really exist anymore and probably hasn't for a long time. There's a false facade, just enough of a facade to keep enough of the casual thinkers believing in it to justify keeping its name and what remains of its processes in place. Azuma Hazuki recently pointed out that every president from Nixon on has had the same effect of generally increasing inequality, concentrating wealth and power with those at the top and mostly gradually eroding civil liberties for those lower down the pyramid as well. When someone like Sanders can't even get a foothold in his own party against Biden (whose apparently declining health makes one wonder how he would cope as anything more than a figurehead), with voting results presented by opaque machines, I think the time has come to face the fact that it is effectively a one party system in terms of policy and has been for a very long time. If by some miracle Bernie had got into office, don't you get the feeling certain interests would have seen to it, via some unfortunate turn of events or other, that his tenure was rather short? The story has been much the same in the UK, with an elitist establishment gradually undermining Jeremy Corbyn, both within his own party and throughout the media. Major gerrymandering, illicit overspends on campaigns and people being turned away from polling stations hint at the fact that those with power and wealth will go to just about any lengths necessary to ensure they keep all of it. Advances in technology and the decline of privacy in recent decades are making it easier and easier both for the democratic system to be manipulated and power to be exerted and maintained over citizens.
Before anyone tells me, I know just about every earlier generation (Boomers excepted, ha) has had it worse in many ways, all the more so if you start looking back a few hundred years. First, "worse" is a generalization because someone homeless and starving today might have been a serf with food and a home in the Middle Ages. Secondly, that kind of relativism doesn't help anyone. It doesn't reduce suffering. It doesn't improve the lives of the inhabitants of this planet. It just lets it keep on sinking. Which brings me on to the other thing on my mind, the planet itself and its other inhabitants. The injustices of the Middle Ages weren't destroying the climate on a global scale, weren't causing extinctions on the scale they're happening today, because industry and the human population simply weren't big enough to do this much harm. Now it's increasingly clear we're at a serious tipping point environmentally, and it just so happens that the right wing elites that are so very good at holding onto power and running industry really don't give a shit about that, beyond a few empty platitudes and inconsequential gestures for public relations exercises.
Just as Sanders and Corbyn were undermined within their own parties, it's a pity selfless, compassionate social democrats aren't managing to perform similar tricks to hollow out the right wing parties. I guess the sociopathic elites are just too well-practiced at duplicity. It doesn't come so naturally to those with more empathy. More's the pity, really.
I sometimes wonder if one of the things that's accelerated the decline of human civilization and the greedy pursuit of profit alone to the detriment of all else, is the decline of religion. I have my own morals grounded in philosophy, but most humans don't seem to have that. If they're not told to be kind to one another and not given a reason why, it doesn't seem to come naturally beyond their own demographic that they care about. Most of the religions arguably aren't perfect and they certainly got misused. With the exception of a few like Buddhism and some of the Native American religions, I think there's not enough respect for human impact on the natural world in their teachings. But when you look at what's replaced religion for much of the West, I do wonder if we'd be in a better place right now if it had stuck. In many circles now morality itself is even portrayed as a negative. Those that advocate for it are condemned as virtue-signallers or being preachy. So what? What's so bad about trying to improve things?
Humans aren't very good at trying to improve things. When they do, it's often misguided. We flail around, telling ourselves we're doing good. But we're part of a broken system and have been spoonfed lie after lie our entire lives.
In summary, I honestly don't see any of this stuff getting any better at all in my life time, or at a guess even for a century or two, at least. It's very depressing and what's more depressing is every cent I spend goes back into funding this injustice and environmental destruction. All I can do is try to consume less and give more. Try and slow down the suffering and damage locally. Unfortunately, I struggle with motivation, particularly when I'm feeling as gloomy as this and I know on balance my consumption is almost certainly doing more harm than good over the course of my life.
I try to disengage from it all. Ignorance is definitely bliss. But my mind keeps waking back up. My conscience keeps hurting me. Not that I even really care about my own pain. But I know others do, and I know that very, very many are suffering.
These subjects really deserve a lot more detail but frankly the way I feel today it's a miracle I wrote any of it down at all.
I expect khallow and Buzz will be along soon to tell me how I've got it all wrong. Go nuts guys. I probably have, but so have you.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @06:22PM (12 children)
Nope. Bernie would have played ball. Whether it was his family's dealings with a bank that destroyed the university his wife worked for or selling out his donors to Hillary for a vacation home. He talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Monday April 13 2020, @06:37PM
It makes little difference whether you're right or not. It's over now either way.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @06:46PM (10 children)
You are so wrong, but I see you have to tear down the best to keep your "both sides" agenda moving. You're either a shill or a conservative that can't stand the fact that liberals supported a real candidate instead of someone even near as bad as Herr Trumpfenburger, such as Bidenbruh. Don't worry, if we don't get an upset before November liberals will 100% vote for Biden as the lesser of two evils. More Trump will only solidify the slide into fascism the US has been on for so long now.
Please explain how Trump is not responsible for the thousands of deaths the US could have prevented with a proper pandemic response? I need a good chuckle to go with this dark topic.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday April 13 2020, @07:17PM (9 children)
What would your preferred pandemic response have been? Biden only in the past two weeks has changed his mind on travel restrictions not being racist.
Population of the US
328.2 million
557,571 SARS2 cases
22,108 SARS2 deaths
4% death rate
Population of EU
446 million inhabitants
757,099 SARS2 cases
65,482 SARS2 deaths
8.6% death rate
EU + UK
512.65 million inhabitants
841,378 cases
76,094 deaths
9% death rate
If only we had been smart and just kept listening to the WHO we could be over this virus like Europe is!
Source for numbers above:
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/geographical-distribution-2019-ncov-cases [europa.eu]
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @07:41PM (8 children)
uuuugghhhhh
You trumpologists are so annoying.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-fire-pandemic-team/ [snopes.com]
So he disbanded the pandemic team, has gutted agency directors and installed incompetent cronies.
If that wasn't enough he then ignored advice from medical experts, called the virus a democrat hoax, denied testing to keep "numbers low", promoted bad medical advice leading directly to at least one death.
Just blows my mind you assholes are still defending that morally corrupt criminal. No one wil ever take a Republican seriously ever again, new conservative politicians had better start a new party or at least try and make the Libertarian party something other than Republican Lite.
For goddamn fucks sake, so tired of you willfully ignorant assholes ignoring EASILY verified reality. Go swallow some more Faux Newz. And don't try tone-trolling, you're the ones in the wrong, you're the ones constantly defending corrupt criminals, you're the ones denying reality. Anger and derision are what you have EARNED.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Sulla on Monday April 13 2020, @11:05PM (7 children)
Didn't bother reading past the first lie
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/ [washingtonpost.com]
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @11:36PM (6 children)
trolololol
Nice opinion piece from the guy who was tasked with the job. Top notch dumbass, and you failed to address Trump's personal contributions beyond gutting the pandemic team. Calling it a hoax for months instead of listening to medical experts and promoting a dangerous substance as a simple cure which killed at least one Republican who still trusted Trump's words.
He is personally responsible for a death, yet all you can do is plug your ears and pray the cray away. That behavior is why conservatives are no longer given even a shred of leeway. Either face reality or shut the fuck up.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @01:26AM (5 children)
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @01:52AM (4 children)
No, I had facts. Sulla has an opinion piece from someone with a vested interest in spinning the fuckup to look better.
Same old khallow, you conservatives keep digging the hole deeper when everyone is so sure you already hit bedrock. Truly you trumptards are the latest wonder of the world.
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:11AM (3 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:30AM (2 children)
Pffft, typical shallow
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Tuesday April 14 2020, @05:55PM (1 child)
Either the numbers I am provided are correct and you are wrong, or Europe's CDC is incorrect and you are right. You leftists are unhinged over Trumps moderate success, all the left has now is claiming when they told us that it was racist and a bad idea to close down travel that they ACTUALLY mean that we should have closed it earlier. Had we mitigated earlier less would have died, but the decisions were made at the right time based on the information we had. If we had known it was human-to-human on December 31st, we could have saved thousands, but the CCP and WHO lied. If you look at the timeline we started closures as soon as that information became public, even though we only had one case stateside at the time.
Trump could have done way better, but he is already doing a million times better than any of the left. We can look at the Obama administrations handling of possible pandemics, Trump responded far faster and far harder with less assumption of risk than Obama did. I think Obama handled it well based on the information he had just as Trump did. Had this turned into being just a flu like the data we had at the time showed (and what CNN and MSNBC were telling us) you would instead be lambasting Trump for closing the borders and shuttering the economy without waiting for more information.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @07:55PM
To be clear, Trump was not responsible for keeping numbers down. As many states went into lockdown Trump bitched about the economy and did not tell other states they should lockdown.
I see you're believing the lies spread by Trump & Friends to try and minimize their own responsibility. Pretty hilarious coming from you "party of responsibility" types.
"Trump could have done way better, but he is already doing a million times better than any of the left" and bbbbut ooobaaamaaaaa
That highlights your own insanity. Best of luck with that propaganda, I know I've lost what little respect I might have afforded you as a living breathing human being. Fly along little parrot zombie.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @06:41PM (19 children)
I don't think so, many of the rightwing sociopaths are quite religious, and they use the bible as an excuse since god said the Earth and everything on it are there for humanity to use as they please. This enables animal cruelty and environmental destruction with a religious blessing. Religion has never stopped anyone from doing bad things, and the massive decline in religion recently has not been paired with an increase in immoral behavior. Humanity does not require religion for moral guidance, we are usually born with some pretty good hardwired stuff.
The real problems you already mentioned, the scale of humanity and industrial activity.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday April 13 2020, @06:47PM (18 children)
You're right but due to their sociopathy they're just abusing the religion, adopting it as a superficial badge, purely as a way to manipulate others into benefiting them (and often harming others). There are many others that do take the morals taught in a religion to heart and really do try to practice them. I suppose it becomes a question of whether those people would have behaved as well without the religious motivation, and whether the do-gooders outweigh the harms done by the sociopaths that misuse religion. It's a tough question to answer.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday April 13 2020, @07:03PM
I suppose it becomes a question of whether those people would have behaved as well without the religious motivation
Well, since religion is man made, it becomes kind of a "chicken/egg" thing.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @07:04PM (16 children)
What morals are there to be gained from religion?
- Don't eat bacon.
- Murder LGBT people on sight.
- Patriarchy.
- Don't question your rulers.
- etc
?
(Score: 3, Touché) by acid andy on Monday April 13 2020, @07:05PM (10 children)
Love thy neighbor....?
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:08AM (9 children)
Done better and earlier by the Hindus, the Buddhists, and even the effectively-atheist Confucius, who used a combination of hanzi roughly meaning "as [one's own] heart" and therefore beat Jesus to the idea of the "positive Golden Rule" by nearly half a millennium.
The Abrahamic religions are insane. They are the fount from which Western traditions of authority spring again and again and again, and how could they not be? Judaism explicitly has a "chosen people." Christianity and Islam condemn people to *eternal torment* for what are by definition finite crimes, one of which is "not believing right," i.e., thoughtcrime.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @03:50AM (8 children)
"Done better and earlier by the Hindus, the Buddhists, and even the effectively-atheist Confucius, who used a combination of hanzi roughly meaning "as [one's own] heart" and therefore beat Jesus to the idea of the "positive Golden Rule" by nearly half a millennium."
Point of order: the Golden Rule is Old Testament, which means Moses has Confucius beat by around a full millennium or more. I would have thought that someone who purports to be so well-read and learned on religion would know this.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday April 14 2020, @07:10AM (3 children)
The Golden Rule is in fact not Old Testament. The negative formulation or "Silver Rule" as I've heard it called it, i.e., "Do *not* do unto others what you would *not* have them do unto you."
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:29PM (1 child)
[citation(s) needed]
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 15 2020, @12:14AM
...try the Bible? :) The code, as it is said, is self-documenting.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2020, @04:53AM
I don't get into the retartedness that is SN and let the crazies run the place and enjoy the show from afar, but I would like to add this info for those who might want to know where the strain of truth lies in this madness.
"Do onto..." or "Don't onto..." are the same but negatives are used as a literary device for emphasizing. For example, a dying wise man might say his last words to the hero: "Remember, don't mock the raven!" or say "Mock all the birds but except Raven" but the former is more dramatic and better literature.
And "Don't onto..." is explicitly mentioned in Mahabharata when it was written down sometime in 800BC-500BC. The true timeline is difficult to gauge because it was part of oral tradition and a living document.
The maxim was present in Old Kingdom of Egypt, which was as old as Rome when Jesus wasn't yet born.
PS: Torah has similar timeline of origin as Mahabharata.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday April 14 2020, @07:11AM (3 children)
And while we're here, what I call the "Platinum Rule" is superior to both: "do unto others as they wish you to do unto them, provided you are not harming others in doing so." See the difference here? A little more complicated, but if we're going for Kantian imperatives, this is a lot less likely to result in paradoxes and snares than either one.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Tuesday April 14 2020, @07:37PM (2 children)
I like that qualification. It makes it a hell of a lot harder for someone to justify enslaving another people to "save their souls".
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 15 2020, @01:23AM (1 child)
So do I get to be the founder of my own religion now, since I've clearly surpassed even Jesus in moral reasoning with a single convoluted one-liner? :D
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday April 15 2020, @11:00AM
Sure. Although I hear the done thing usually in these circumstances is to write a new interpretation of the existing scriptures to support your new decree. ;)
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday April 13 2020, @07:06PM
...whilst maintaining adequate social distancing and isolation ;)
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @07:45PM (3 children)
There are decent morals in religious texts, but they are wrapped with some atrocities. The big part of religion is creating a community bond around shared values that supposedly values and promotes morality. As we have seen that is a bunch of hogwash, human communities do that naturally. Maybe back in the day when villages were small and isolated religion was a good way of spreading "the law." But now that we have communal justice systems and societies that have grown and created relatively just laws that are applied even in the smallest towns there is really no more need for religion.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday April 13 2020, @08:00PM (2 children)
You may well be right. Or maybe it's just that humans behave awfully regardless of whether religion is present or not. My paragraph about it was really idle speculation. My key point is that humans seem to me, on balance, to be better at screwing the world up than improving it, all the more so when there are more of them and their technology is more advanced.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:40AM (1 child)
We all want to improve it.
The bosses won't let us.
We build amazing technology.
The bosses subvert it for war and slavery.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday April 14 2020, @11:41AM
If you have no absolutely no choice but to continue working for them, then bend the rules as far as you are able for as long as you are able. Do what little you can to make the product less harmful, or less effective at being harmful.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Subsentient on Monday April 13 2020, @09:33PM (15 children)
Humanity really is a lost cause -- I've known it in my heart for a long time. Our species will not survive long. Humanity is an inherently selfish and cruel race, and even the best of people consistently have abhorrent thoughts that at least take them aback. Look around you. Look how there was a brief burst of decency and compassion in the beginning of the Ebolaids pandemic -- followed by people raiding ambulances for face masks.
Look at all the scams preying on those who just lost their livelihood, hoping to squeeze the last few drops of cash out of them.
There is no hope. All we can do is try and be the better specimens, but the race is ultimately doomed, and rightly so.
The soul of our race is consigned to oblivion, and oblivion is where it belongs.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday April 13 2020, @10:59PM
Yes in general I think you're probably right about humanity. I think it more with each passing year. A very, very few manage to fully buck the trend in a net meaningful way but they're really drops lost in the ocean.
It may be right. What's not right is what other life we take down with us.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @01:24AM (8 children)
I agree that humanity is imperfect. So what?
Humanity is inherently a lot of stuff, both good and bad. Rather than angst over our weaknesses, perhaps you'd be better served by considering what brings out our strengths?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:00PM (7 children)
The point is that entropy means that it's much, much more more work to clean up and repair after a few bad apples have caused widespread harm and destruction than it is for those harms to be initiated. Advances in technology, the organization of large corporations and nations, and the sheer weight of numbers of the human population mean that today a handful of bad actors can easily wield sufficient power to ruin much of the world for centuries to come. At that point the strengths are irrelevant. Barring the invention of some self-replicating conservation bot, it's just too hard for the humans that care to keep healing the world when the ones that don't go on fucking it up on ever larger scales.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:54PM (3 children)
And yet we've somehow progressed to the point where there's something for the "bad apples" to break. If this effect was as impossible to thwart as you claim, then we wouldn't have the developed world in the first place.
Instead, we've figured this out. We either redirect the energies of said bad apples, so that they are no longer bad apples. Or fine/imprison so that the bad apples have less opportunity to break stuff.
But do they?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @04:24PM (2 children)
"If this effect was as impossible to thwart as you claim"
not what was said, and "developed world" is not the paradise you imagine
"Instead, we've figured this out. We either redirect the energies of said bad apples, so that they are no longer bad apples. Or fine/imprison so that the bad apples have less opportunity to break stuff."
So you really pay little to no attention to reality, and when you block environmental regulation cuz "muh bidness" you're actually the Devil at work? Hmmm, methnks you're too dumb for this game.
"But do they?"
Yes, yes they do. Witness the extinction of thousands of species, destruction of ocean and land habitats, cancerous air pollution from burning coal and gas, nuclear pollution that will be a problem for hundreds to thousands of years.
You really should get paid for this level of shilling.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @08:13PM (1 child)
Yes, it was what was said. And the developed world is pretty damn good, whether it is paradise or not.
I see that you have no real evidence to back your feelz. No surprise there. Blocking environmental regulation can be enabling the bad apples, or it can be blocking the bad apples from creating bad regulation. I favor the latter interpretation since pollution is pretty much fixed in the developed world yet the push for more regulation goes on. Clean environments are one of those benefits of a non-paradise developed world which you ignore.
And who's doing that? Hint: it's not the developed world which has solved all of those problems, even including the nuclear pollution - though it is interesting how environmentalists have obstructed solutions to that. Poor people and poor countries don't have the incentive or resources to care for the environment. Meanwhile, the developed world does and has mostly implemented those solutions. The narrative just isn't matching reality.
Don't quit your day job.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 15 2020, @06:47PM
Bwahahahahahaha
you are precious
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Subsentient on Tuesday April 14 2020, @11:35PM (1 child)
Wow, I'm surprised I've found someone else who feels that way about this kind of thing and isn't afraid to say it.
My internal paradigm for a long time has been a "broken universe" narrative, describing how humanity's evil is a result of a badly designed/instantiated universe that rewards evil and chaos, in other words, we're a product of the dimension we were spawned in. I still can't find anything convincing wrong with my belief, *so far*.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday April 15 2020, @10:45AM
I don't blame the universe itself, even though it can seem cruel at times (Some people get angry with computers. I never do, because they behave logically. When something screws up, it was almost always a meatbag that made the screw up, either in software or the hardware design, barring some random bit rot--although I suppose that last case is entropy again). Entropy is what gives us possibilities and variation. Without the countless disordered states, we wouldn't have many interesting and beautiful ordered ones. Humanity certainly does a lot of evil, but not all entropy is immediately evil to life. I mean, we need a bit of heat to even stay alive.
My feelings about all this stuff tend to ebb and flow. Manic certainly wouldn't be an inappropriate description! :) But I think I'll always tend towards the deeply cynical towards humanity (and human society in particular) and towards admiration, respect and wonder for nature and reality itself.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 15 2020, @01:27AM
Hallow himself is an agent of that self-serving cult of entropy. His posts make that abundantly clear.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Tuesday April 14 2020, @11:48AM (4 children)
I think it would be a lot better if a descendant of the bonobo apes [wikipedia.org], with their gentler temperament and use of sex for conflict resolution and reconciliation, could take over the Earth instead of us brutal, selfish, aggressive humans.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 15 2020, @02:35AM (3 children)
It seems bonobos got good PR for some time.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3353342/Bonobos-not-all-peace-and-free-love.html [telegraph.co.uk]
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160317-do-bonobos-really-spend-all-their-time-having-sex [bbc.com]
https://www.skepticink.com/incredulous/2017/10/09/bonobo-myth-demolished/ [skepticink.com]
They do not seem so hippie anymore.
I remember a documentary about Jane Goodall [wikipedia.org] in which she commented how the other chimps (not bonobo) had a split after death of one grandma... and one side was pushed out until they died.
Less rose tinted glasses, please.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday April 15 2020, @11:17AM (2 children)
That's interesting reading. Thanks. I suppose it's not too surprising to find out that a great ape's behavior can't be neatly described in just a few sentences.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ze on Wednesday April 15 2020, @08:27PM (1 child)
I think this all just speaks to how complex species like us have conflicting impulses and a lot of variability in how our motives play out.
Afaict the culture of a society is the driving force. A sea change in bonobo culture can radically alter their society and behavior, I think history has ample evidence of the same for humanity.
I quite agree with what you've said here and share the same feelings, and have seen things largely this way for decades, but I've also always felt there's opportunity. Yes these broken old systems are imploding (as they should, tbh). But that doesn't mean we can't build functional new ones on the basis of compassionate culture and actually good education. In the connected world we have more opportunity to achieve such a thing than ever, and the ongoing failure of traditional corrupt power structures (and their incompetence/disinterest in grasping anything beyond their myopic avarice) could make them less of an impediment to its emergence.
But I don't know. Maybe nobody's getting this done. I'm afraid it can very well be as you say. I just also think there's a lot that could be done if those who cared could summon the motivation and coordinate the intelligence.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Friday April 17 2020, @03:21PM
It certainly brings new opportunities. I want to believe compassion can win out, I really do. You make an important point about culture being a huge driver of human behavior. Of course culture in the west has up till now largely been driven by corporations and the profit motive. One day that could change.
Yeah. The internet does allow more cooperation to do good and many people will sometimes make altruistic acts of kindness. Like you, I do worry whether for the foreseeable future it will ever be enough. For judging the possibility of political change one yard stick is looking at the response to online petitions. The most popular issues seem to get up to a few hundred thousand responses at most. I think it's similar for crowd funding. This can do good but I think to completely reinvent society these sort of things would need sustained effort in the millions.
There are other good corners of the internet. Things like freecycle.org that let people give away old items reducing the environmental impact and meaning the recipient won't buy a new one (although the giver probably does). For a fee ebay enables similar cooperation although I can't say whether they're improving the world or making it worse (probably the latter), given all the data mining and the deluge of cheaply manufactured new goods.
I think a fundamental problem for humanity is that most of the wealthy simply are not willing to give up much of their wealth. The ultimate threat to the poor is homelessness; the compassionate way to solve that is for someone to give or freely lend them land. As land is increasingly controlled by those who seek to acquire and profit from it, those who would like to help the homeless have less and less to give. On top of that in many countries there's a drive, through planning laws and other regulations, to make it harder for those without money to set up a home, even when they do have long term access to land. It's a stretch to see how the internet could solve this.
The internet has certainly given greater than ever access to knowledge for all its users. People can learn new skills for free that can save them money. In theory it allows greater scrutiny of politicians and corporations as well but in practice it seems most people are very poor at critical thinking and too easily deceived. Those with power are learning how to use the internet as a force to control and manipulate the people.
The whole system is so complex I don't think anyone can say what the longer term outcomes will be. I'd hazard a guess it will be somewhat chaotic. I have to admit this journal entry was quite one-sided. It was the culmination of a number of disappointments and dashed hopes I've had over the years as I've watched the world develop. It's not the whole story.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 13 2020, @10:44PM (35 children)
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday April 13 2020, @10:55PM
I wouldn't have expected anything different from you, khallow.
Do you? I don't think it's interesting.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by acid andy on Monday April 13 2020, @11:01PM (33 children)
I used to be moderately right wing. Then I grew up and woke up. That should tell you all you need to know.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 2, Redundant) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @01:21AM (32 children)
So what happened? The goalposts got moved. Now, it doesn't matter that the developed world figured out pollution - there's imaginary climate change tipping points to worry about. Nor does it matter that we've made everyone's lives better, there's still homeless, starving people somewhere, and it's just as much a failure to have one starving, homeless person as it is to have a billion. It doesn't matter that we've made great strides in reducing the bloodshed of war, when one can still point to rival ideologies that don't have the right negativity about the modern world nor are interested in making the right, but very harmful changes to human society.
I'd take this pessimism more seriously, if you had actually acknowledged the many things we got right rather than strictly the many things we still are working on.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @01:56AM (13 children)
Ooph, amazing you can say such things with a straight face. My guess is you read the latest technological developments and pay zero attention to actual problems that still exist. Besides that, the simple idea that things are better now than they have been before is not a good rationale to try and improve things further.
"less warfare"
- not really
"less pollution"
- soooo you don't have a brain?
"and a huge improvement, unparalleled at any point of the past in our standards of living"
- standard of living for some, decrease for many
"and freedom"
- hmmm, yup no brain
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:08AM (1 child)
So when you write
you're just saying that humanity needs to work on a few things to improve itself and then everything will be great? Doesn't look like that to me. "Humanity has failed." is a wee bit different than "You're doing great, but don't stop improving!"
Fortunately, I didn't expect to carry those arguments on the strength of feelz. In the journal I linked to, each one is linked to several objective charts showing the improvement, not merely, as you do here, assert things. I've already addressed your concerns. These are real, not merely things I wish were true. As to freedom, the near complete abandonment of communism by itself greatly increased global freedom.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:10AM
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:10AM (10 children)
He's fucking amazing, isn't he? That's the entire basis of his worldview, half-assed and incorrect "statistics" and history he thinks can shore up his "keep doing what we did before only harder" mentality.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:15AM (9 children)
Note that solidly trumps no argument at all. I have yet to hear you explain why we should ignore reality and go with your bullshit narratives instead. Maybe you'll get around to that sometime?
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:32AM (2 children)
Your posts speak for themselves :) They read like a fifth grader's attempt at Atlas Shrugged fanfiction, only without the sex scenes.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Informative) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:42AM
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @09:25PM
Thank goodness for small mercies, in this time of Rands coming home to roast.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @04:27PM (5 children)
"why we should ignore reality"
Hmmm, you rarely provide sources and regularly deny reality when someone else does provide proof? No? Too bad, for a sec I thought you might be gaining a glimmer of self-awareness.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @08:16PM (4 children)
Notice who posted anonymously and didn't provide sources! "Rarely" trumps "never".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 15 2020, @06:57PM (3 children)
tone trolling and "I know you are but what am I?"
you're cracking bub
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday April 16 2020, @12:58AM (2 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 16 2020, @11:38PM (1 child)
Ooooh, another I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I???
---------------------------------------------------
TL:DR - you got nuthin, weak sauce pal
You can't even get your arguments straight when you're upset.
So this little subthread started with you saying - "Note that solidly trumps no argument at all. I have yet to hear you explain why we should ignore reality and go with your bullshit narratives instead. Maybe you'll get around to that sometime?"
Which makes you the one engaging in a tu quoque argument. I then pointed out that you rarely give citations yourself while ignoring fact based citations others rebut you with.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 20 2020, @12:24AM
No, the subthreat started with Azuma saying stupid shit.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:08PM (1 child)
I wish I could believe you but everywhere I look are right wing governments led by pathological liars. At least comparatively speaking, Sanders and Corbyn are basically honest men.
I refer you to paragraph three. Humans occasionally get things right but the point of this journal entry is my realization that, on balance, it never seems to be enough and I don't believe it ever will be (at least for the next few centuries).
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:57PM
Then look elsewhere. Governments aren't the only game in town.
Exactly my point. You can't even acknowledge the things we do right.
(Score: 2, Touché) by fustakrakich on Tuesday April 14 2020, @03:31PM (15 children)
it's just as much a failure to have one starving, homeless person as it is to have a billion.
For that one person, it sure is! But, fuck 'im, right? It's just one person
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @08:57PM (14 children)
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday April 14 2020, @09:10PM
Nobody has to starve
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday April 14 2020, @09:25PM (2 children)
In all these years, you're yet to give a convincing explanation of how expanding welfare in a moderate social democracy in a wealthy, developed country to lift people out of starvation could plausibly cause further starvation? Citations of more extreme or impoverished regimes, Venezuela, communist states, will not be accepted.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @10:57PM (1 child)
Because it takes wealth from other people and bribes voters to look the other way for corruption, another cause of starvation. And it's not just "starvation". This has long since ballooned to a variety of other things (dumbed down education, lifestyle preservation, health care theater, public pensions, etc). Point is a lot of stuff is rationalized on the basis of starving people. And if you have a wealthy, developed country, who is going to be starving? I have no trouble with support for severe mental illness, crippling disabilities, and such. But that's easy to fund since they're so few. It never stops there. And when the budget troubles happen, government will cut these (and important services like roads, police, etc) before they cut largess to their cronies.
Owned goal there. Extreme, impoverished regimes like Venezuela are exactly what I'm thinking of as the end state. Doesn't matter how unacceptable it is to you.
Venezuelan leadership rationalized a great deal of human suffering and creating 6 million refugees because people were starving.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday April 15 2020, @10:28AM
When people are starving they generally don't have a lot of time, energy or motivation to root out corruption in politics either. On the other side of the coin, tax breaks, subsidies and bailouts for the rich also bribe them to look the other way for corruption.
La-la-la-la-la! If I keep singing loudly and cover my eyes, I can't see or hear them, so they must not exist! Amirite?
So enabling a party to implement extremes is bad? Whodathunkit! Who would eva a thunk it? Seriously, this is the best you've got? It's a bit like saying that you're never going to drink a drop of water again, because sometimes people drown in floods.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 15 2020, @01:29AM (9 children)
Wrong question, Hallow. The question is "why should ANYONE starve?"
You are a foot soldier of the very same zero-sum entropy-worshiping cult that's dragging us under as a species. Those of heightened--which is to say, normal, compared to you--moral sensitivity can instinctively tell this about you from the things you post. Stop pretending you have any light in you at all that you didn't steal from someone else. You are a skinwalker, a "wendigo."
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday April 15 2020, @05:23AM (8 children)
No, it is not! The answer to that question is that there is no "should" here. NO ONE should starve. But consider that numerous people have criticized the modern economies that have done such a good job of feeding people and solving many other problems that they claim to care about. They and you are remarkably incurious about the consequences of actions that harm societies, aside from assuming it won't be bad.
Is it really about feeding people and such, or is it about reshaping society in your own image, damn the starving people?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 15 2020, @07:01PM (1 child)
" the modern economies that have done such a good job of feeding people"
So you just go right ahead and ignore the problems while simultaneously claiming your worldview solved them?
Astounding. I know your brain works, but it has a zero-day flaw with that hard dependency you have for the Capitalism library. Sadly it is such a glaring vulnerability that your brain is compromised by the faintest whispers of compassion.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday April 16 2020, @02:13AM
Or is it rather that you ignore and would break the successes of modern society because those societies aren't perfect?
This reminds me of a lot of racist and fringe science rhetoric. They start with principles everyone can agree on: scientists often are too conservative and get things wrong, Detroit is really messed up, etc. Then they gently segue into stranger grounds, alleged anomalous comet observations and "Guess what failed cities, Detroit and Saint Louis have in common". Finally, you end up with the crazy: Electric Universe and sending all the blacks back to Africa and/or Mississippi.
I see the same thing here. Nobody wants people to starve. So far we're on common ground. Now, we're starting to veer into the crazy with angry ranting about sociopaths and greed, nobody likes that, right? But what's the endgame here? Is it a modest enlargement of the SNAP program [wikipedia.org] (a US program for feeding the poorest)? Or is it burning down the present system of capitalism?
(Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday April 16 2020, @12:26AM (5 children)
Your problem is willful blindness to things changing. I call this "end of history syndrome." What got us here might not continue working indefinitely, and indeed, our best estimates and projections show that it *cannot.* You, for some reason, refuse to see this.
And it's not hard to see why: when pressed, you drop all pretense of actually caring about people either individually or in groups and reveal it's all about ideology. In other words, feelz over realz. You need something to justify the fundamentally broken, selfish worldview that results from a longstanding Cluster B personality disorder, so you try and pretty it up by appealing to successes of the past--while ignoring their hideous human costs and the ongoing problems with them
You fool no one with a working conscience, which is what you are clearly lacking. Only another sociopath would be taken in by your way of thinking. And because you're also solipsistic as hell, you assume everyone else thinks essentially the same way as you do at base. Newsflash, asshole: no, we don't.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday April 16 2020, @12:54AM (4 children)
It's interesting how much "tu quoque" deflates your arguments. Here, have you ever discussed history aside from derping on about Abrahamic religions?
Evidence or STFU. "Might" is just a weasel word that means nothing here. As to "our best estimates", let's see them. I suspect, since you're hand waving like crazy, that they aren't our best estimates.
Indeed. Now get on with the realz.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday April 16 2020, @12:58AM (3 children)
Does it ever bother you how completely predictable and utterly vacuous your responses are? Obviously not, because you keep this shit up.
Well, that's actually good, for my purposes: the more you pull this "no u hurr hurr" horseshit, the more people see, from your very own mouth, that you are exactly what I've been saying you are, and you provide them the fine detail as to how and why. Even, perhaps *especially,* your selective quoting.
Keep it up, you solipsistic asshole. You do my work for me so well it's almost too easy.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday April 16 2020, @01:00AM
Rational, logic argument is very predictable. Meanwhile your continued inability to say anything productive in this thread indicates I'm not the one with the vacuous problem.
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday April 16 2020, @02:48AM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 16 2020, @11:43PM
Here I pontificate the meaning of life, how even in mythological and scienftific studies point to our world springing forth from absolute nothingness. Either God created everything from the seat of Heaven, or the Universe exploded into existence for reasons we can not yet fathom. Thus I find myself coming to the seemingly incomprehensible conclusion that even your vacuous posts hold purpose. Now let us meditate on this wonder.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @04:30PM (9 children)
In my opinion you're mostly speaking of a certain form of ideology failing - not of humanity failing. Countries such as China, Russia, and India are now thriving. The countries are growing rapidly, their people are generally politically happy (independent polls such as from Gallup have confirmed the unbelievably (from our perspective) high approval ratings present in these countries), and people view things as, at least in general, good.
So what is the ideology I'm referring to? It's one of social idealism. In other words if you just get the right people in office, Sanders or whoever else, you could create this perfect society. It doesn't really make any sense. When you look at your life from decade to decade, there are going to be major changes - but relatively little of it is primarily because of some government act or another. And even when you do have major upheavals you just tend to shift to another set of new problems, rather than really solving anything. This [johndclare.net] is a series of real jokes often told during the communist era of the USSR. They're telling of the issues people faced:
---
This is Armenian Radio; our listeners asked us: “Can a son of a General become a Marshal?”
We’re answering: “No, because every Marshal also has a son.”
This is Armenian Radio; our listeners asked us: “Is it possible to build communism in America?”
We’re answering: “It's possible, but who will we buy grain from?”
This is Armenian Radio; our listeners asked us: “Was it possible to criticize Hitler?”
We’re answering: “Sure.” The same way as you criticized Stalin. You had to lock yourself in your bedroom, hide under two, or better three covers, place a pillow, or better two pillows on top of the blankets over your head, and then whisper whatever your soul wishes about the dictator, strictly adhering to a five-minute limit.”
This is Armenian Radio; our listeners asked us: “Why policemen always walk the streets in teams of three?”
We’re answering: “The partners in the police team are always chosen in such a way that one of them knows how to read, the other how to write, and the third one, naturally, has to keep watch over those two intellectuals.”
A Russian, a Frenchman and an Englishman argued about Adam's nationality.
The Frenchman said, "Of course Adam was French. Look how passionately he made love to Eve!"
The Englishman said, "Of course Adam was British. Look how he gave his only apple to the lady, like a real gentleman."
The Russian said, "Of course Adam only could be Russian. Who else, possessing nothing but a sole apple, and walking with a naked ass, still believed he was in a paradise?"
---
What drove this idealism? A lot of it seems to stem from the current sad state of higher education in the US but that's a can of worms I have no desire to open here. But I think it was also driven in large part by what an exceptional, in the most literal sense of being an exception, the past 30 years have been. We had no major war, no real catastrophes (until now), and concerns of the past like famine and all of these other awful things are things many seemed to believe could no longer happen again (again, until now...).
This led to an elevation of concerns. Climate change is an obvious one. Climate change is real and it is an issue, but let's consider it. We just recently discovered direct physical evidence that Antarctica was [nature.com], at one time, a tropical rain forest. If only we'd acted sooner, we might have saved it! ;-) But of course the real implication from there is that CO2 levels were much higher during the dinos than we had predicted, potentially 1600+ PPM. And life was absolutely thriving. And for some scale there the CO2 level from the industrial revolution (let's say around 1800) to now went from around 280 to 414. This [wikipedia.org] is a list of known oil reserves in the world. Even if we keep increasing CO2 levels at current levels we run out of oil *long* before we get to even what it was like back then. Worst case scenario? Sea levels raise a bit and cities need to move inward. Probably less disruptive than this stupid virus!
When you face real problems it tends to keep you grounded. When you live in a bubble, you become weak and susceptible to the slightest disruption. You talk about inequality here when the poor in America live like kings relative to many people in these other places where people are so much more satisfied. That is not to say that you can't complain about something so long as somebody else is in a worse situation (an idiotic argument), but rather that the issue is not a real one but one of perspective. And that perspective is being driven by plainly unrealistic idealism.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday April 14 2020, @05:27PM (8 children)
Is it unrealistic idealism simply to want to slow the decline of a civilization?
In the West most of us aren't quite in as dire situations as some of the ones you list, but that doesn't mean we can't or won't get there.
I don't think they all necessarily live like kings relative to those others. Try building yourself a hut or pitching your tent somewhere near to resources if you're homeless in America. In many areas I believe you'll quickly get moved on if not arrested or worse.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @07:21PM
What I'm saying is that I don't think civilization can be considered to objectively declining by any real metric whatsoever. We're just going through a period of change, like we have countless times before. I do think the ideology of social idealism is declining and will probably be dead within 50 years. Hah, for that matter - fertility rates alone will effect this change. The future is determined not by us, but by our children and by their children. People who aren't reproducing will inherently be less represented in the future and vice versa for those who are.
And just to emphasize one more time, the point I made about poverty in other countries was not to say we can't complain about being poor just because our poor have much better lives than billions of people in this world. The point I made there is that our prioritization is based on subjective matters. You see inequality in the west as heralding some catastrophe. I, even though I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination, am not especially concerned about it in the least. I tend to focus on myself and my loved ones - rather than trying to keep up with the Jones's. I do not much care how much other people have. I see the role of government as doing little other than providing justice against an ideally minimal set of crimes, and protecting against foreign invasion. Beyond that, I'd be quite happy if they just kept their nose out of my life so much as possible.
Though I must say I'm looking forward to my Corona gibs.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @08:22PM (6 children)
Wanting is very different from getting. All I keep hearing is how bad people are, not how we can encourage people to be better.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday April 14 2020, @09:28PM (5 children)
You see, we tried that. Oh did we ever try. Unfortunately, humans being humans, it didn't work.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @10:31PM (4 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 15 2020, @07:03PM (3 children)
The entirety of the GOP, most of the DNC, and quite obviously Trump.
Also, people like you who still support sociopathic greed while pretending everything is find and dandy. Get back to me when you advocate for universal healthcare.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday April 16 2020, @12:50AM (2 children)
The poverty of your argument is interesting. I wrote
You blame a bunch of people you don't like. And for what? Something about "universal health care". Sounds like you're part of the problem rather than part of the solution!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 16 2020, @11:48PM (1 child)
Daaaad, moooommmm, someone is being mean to khallow! Can you make them stop?
In all seriousness, you are the problem. If you won't accept verifiable facts what else is there? Do we have to coddle you, stroke your ego for years until you think you made the connection to reality all on your own? Do we just give in and say "sure, we'll let you violate our human rights because you're a special flower whose opinions we must not only tolerate but worship as our own?"
Get real you numbskull, centrism is stupid when one group literally has Nazis in it. Or did you miss the Nazi flag in the Michigan quarantine protest with Trump and Pence names on it? Or the many Nazi and traitorous Confederate flags in Charlottesville and so many other Nazi marches?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 20 2020, @12:21AM
No different than characterizing all blacks as violent crooks because one mugger was black. Tu quoque [soylentnews.org].
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday April 15 2020, @10:56AM
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.