from the machines-replacing-the-very-skilled-laborer dept.
Say hello to the hunk of plastic that could replace your anesthesiologist. Right now, only four U.S. hospitals are using the Sedasys anesthesiology machine to sedate patients before surgery. Johnson & Johnson has been cautiously rolling out the machine after winning approval from the Food and Drug Administration in 2013. The FDA originally rejected the machine in 2010, but later approved after Johnson & Johnson agreed it would only be used for simple screenings--like colonoscopies or endoscopies--and only when an anesthesiology doctor or nurse was on-call.
The machine administers a measured dose of propofol to the patient, and the drug acts quickly. To keep patients safe, the machine is programmed with conservative parameters. Even the slightest problem--for example, if the patient has low blood oxygen or a slow heart rate--slows or stops the drug's infusion. According to the Washington Post, the machine has stricter limits than a human anesthesiologist would have.
http://www.popsci.com/meet-machine-could-replace-anesthesiologists
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 13 2015, @10:50PM
Bing?
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2015, @05:50AM
Ping.
They had a machine that went Bing, but it never found anything.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 13 2015, @10:53PM
Anesthesiologists are paid amazingly well. Stupidly well, I think. Welcome to the modern era.
(Score: 1) by CortoMaltese on Thursday May 14 2015, @12:19AM
Well to be honest its not exactly an easy job, and anything going wrong could kill the patient.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2015, @01:39AM
Have you picked fruit? That is a hard job too.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday May 14 2015, @12:14PM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday May 13 2015, @11:00PM
Even the slightest problem--for example, if the patient has low blood oxygen or a slow heart rate--slows or stops the drug's infusion.
The doctor will then get an audible warning that sounds like "".
(Score: 4, Funny) by sjames on Wednesday May 13 2015, @11:03PM
Even the slightest problem--for example, if the patient has low blood oxygen or a slow heart rate--slows or stops the drug's infusion.
The doctor will then get an audible warning that sounds like "AAAAAAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Dear God, give me drugs!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHH!".
(Score: 2) by snick on Wednesday May 13 2015, @11:17PM
The one time I was in the room during a surgery, the anesthesiologist was the hardest working person in the room. All the surgeon has to do is perform the surgery. The anesthesiologist's job is to keep the patient alive.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday May 13 2015, @11:26PM
Was the anesthesiologist following a lot of protocols at once using the available data and administering drugs in precise amounts?
Sounds like the anesthesiologist can be replaced by a machine.
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(Score: 3, Interesting) by snick on Wednesday May 13 2015, @11:54PM
Nope. He was watching and listening to the patient and the surgeon, constantly adjusting based on what was happening with them, while following a lot of protocols at once using the available data and administering drugs in precise amounts.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2015, @01:08AM
And they get paid tons, and yet they have to play second fiddle in OR. No wonder so many become alcoholics.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 13 2015, @11:23PM
The control program has encountered and illegal condition. The patient will be terminated. Press any key to try another patient.
FDA = Federal "Donation" Acceptance ;-)
(Score: 2) by davester666 on Monday May 18 2015, @06:33AM
I swear I remember there being a "restart" option...
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday May 18 2015, @06:38AM
You missed the install option with "genuine support call of infinite length" ;-)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by dltaylor on Wednesday May 13 2015, @11:49PM
I have known more than a few engineers that went back and got medical degrees because they could babysit machines plugged into patients as well as machines plugged into other machines, and the income upgrade was substantial. 'Course this was 'way back when' and I don't know if it's still that easy and lucrative.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2015, @02:36AM
For others, it's radiology.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday May 13 2015, @11:51PM
Could this be the system needed to turn the voodoo art of drug cocktails into a cold and calculated science?
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(Score: 3, Insightful) by Immerman on Thursday May 14 2015, @12:34AM
Why waste perfectly good drug cocktails? Nitrogen asphyxiation is cheap, painless, and extremely effective. One moment they're feeling fine, the next they're unconscious, and a couple minutes later they're dead. And all you need is an oxygen mask hooked up to a canister of nitrogen.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by takyon on Thursday May 14 2015, @12:42AM
The death penalty proponents can't help but keep cruelty in the process.
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(Score: 2) by GungnirSniper on Thursday May 14 2015, @02:05AM
That physical savagery belongs in the era of Khan, not in our reality.
Tips for better submissions to help our site grow. [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Tork on Thursday May 14 2015, @03:01AM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 3, Insightful) by GungnirSniper on Thursday May 14 2015, @04:14AM
Yes.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2015, @12:25AM
But perhaps this could help others, who have more money than common sense, to get a decent night's sleep.
And the machine must surely be cheaper than whatever Jackson was paying Conrad Murray [wikipedia.org] to be his personal physician/anesthesiologist.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday May 14 2015, @12:26AM
I had a profoundly adverse reaction to the aneasthetic used for my knee arthroscopy in 1983, but several hours later, after I was home.
My parents got the bright idea to go out to a party, they didn't leave a telephone near my bed. When I went into convulsions, I thought The End had come.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2015, @01:43AM
Hey, now you can have a good laugh about it, eh? It was all good. :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2015, @02:19AM
Not exactly an allergic reaction, but weird and scary effects on memory.
When my SO had a colonoscopy she opted for general anesthetic, I'm pretty sure she was given propofol. I was there when she regained consciousness and she spoke and appeared normal...until she repeated herself a few minutes later, and again, and again (at least five times, maybe more). Each time I told her, "You already said that." To which she responded that she just woke up and had no memory of speaking to me earlier.
Scared the heck out of me for 20 minutes or so. I was imagining our future if she had no short term memory and her brain was on auto-repeat (early onset Alzheimer's or something). We were both in our 50s at that time.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday May 14 2015, @04:35AM
The very worst case of amnesia in history was some guy who had a brain infection. He lived to a ripe old age, maybe is still alive, in an institution. His wife came to visit most days, but he never recognized her. If he turned his back he'd forget that he ever met her.
By contrast, he was still able to play improvisational piano.
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(Score: 3, Informative) by chewbacon on Thursday May 14 2015, @02:45AM
First, I used to run IV pumps with propofol in the ICU setting as a RN. So this "tech" at its core has been around. Second, the cardiopulmonary effects of propo can be difficult to anticipate. That's why there is the need for monitored anesthesia care. The patient could be tolerating it well, not falling asleep and then just a tad more obstruct their airway. The. What does the machine do? Put in an airway and manage it? Hell no.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Dunbal on Thursday May 14 2015, @03:30AM
The machine administers a measured dose of propofol to the patient, and the drug acts quickly. To keep patients safe, the machine is programmed with conservative parameters. Even the slightest problem--for example, if the patient has low blood oxygen or a slow heart rate--slows or stops the drug's infusion.
Yeah, because that's all an anesthesiologist does. It's really so simple a machine could do it. /sarcasm
Oh and seriously, who would the surgeon blame when the patient dies on the table? Nope, the anesthesiologist is here to stay.
I'm a physician and have been in the OR a lot. While it's true that most of the time the anesthesiologist is, well, not doing much. Playing with his/her phone. Reading. Studying. Even napping, sometimes... but they sure earn their pay when the patient gets complicated. And THAT is the patient that will die when the machine can't deal with the problem(s) before a human can get to the room. The easy patients will do fine on the machine. Heck, they don't even need the machine. Thing is when someone gets complicated they usually get really complicated, really fast. The problem is you can never really tell when someone decides it would be a good idea to check out, no matter how much screening you do, there's always one. So, should we just allow them to die because machines are cheaper?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by m2o2r2g2 on Thursday May 14 2015, @04:06AM
Unfortunately, society says... yes (indirectly).
Everyone says we can't put a price on human life, but we do it all the time.
The number of people who die because the system/ they could not afford the preventative treatments is substantial.
The number of cuts being made in government spending even in the face of growing demand.
The number of people we let succumb to their addictions.
And then there is classic trolley cart problems...
If we can use the savings from the machine to allow the hospital to run more surgeries in parallel, or make an otherwise unaffordable surgery suddenly affordable would you deny those people the right to life saving surgery just to slightly decrease (not remove) an already low risk (as anesthesiologists will still fail to save some patients too).
Ethics, like physics, is relative.
(Score: 2) by zeigerpuppy on Thursday May 14 2015, @11:43AM
show me a machine that can manage fluids, airway, drugs, allergic reactions, the surgeon pulling on something they shouldn't....
and you may have an argument, machines aren't very good in flexible tasks
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Dunbal on Thursday May 14 2015, @06:37PM
Yup, and then you get the guy saying "oh but we're only going to use it for colonoscopies". You know. That admin guy, who never went to medical school and has no idea what a stimulated Vagus nerve can do. There's a reason there is a defibrillator in the room where colonoscopies are performed (or there should be).
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2015, @03:41PM
I know an anaesthesiologist who lost a malpractice suit which went something like this:
1. A nurse handling the machine drops and breaks a piece of equipment.
2. It is sent to the manufacturer for repair.
3. Repairman hands it to an apprentice.
4. Apprentice screws up.
5. Equipment is put back into service.
6. The anaestiologist is not told any of the above.
7. Equipment malfunctions and fatally overdoses the very next patient it is used on.
(8. He says his lawyer sucked. I believe it.)
Now, picture these sorts of things happening absent the anaesthesiologist. There would be more deaths. I want to say no company would risk the liability. But I know how the public (judges, juries, whatever else) view machinery and I recon a suit would be less likely to succeed because the machines are "magic" and "equipment failure" is ticked off as an act of God.
I think that it will, sadly, be automated.
(Score: 2) by pendorbound on Thursday May 14 2015, @04:44PM
From the website, "minimal-to-moderate sedation". This isn't for deep anesthesia for major surgery.
It's for sedation for uncomfortable procedures (colonoscopy) that patients would prefer to sleep through. Possibly for minor surgery where local anesthesia provides the actual pain relief, but putting the patient out is more comfortable, convenient, or safer (no flailing about or freaking out at the sight of blood).
Certainly still the case that propofol can go sideways quick in some patients, but we're not talking about the "walking the line between alive & dead" kind of deep anesthesia that's necessary for major surgery where local anesthetics can't be administered effectively.
This might be more for putting you out when you're getting stitches where the cost of an anesthesiologist isn't reasonable given than the degree of discomfort you'd endure from just a local, but where many people would nonetheless prefer to checkout for the duration.
Using something like this may enable the use of propofol which has a much shorter half-life than things like diazepam or other sedatives. The benefit is that you're out quicker, and wake up faster, so less recovery time & less feeling "drugged" after the procedure is complete. The need for this machine comes from the fact that dosing for propofol is MUUUCH more finicky than other sedatives. It needs to be administered in tiny amounts constantly through the procedure, and the patient wakes up soon after the drug feed stops. (And would die quickly from an overdose trying to make it "last longer".)
As far as the machine giving up in case of anomalies, yes the patient would wake up, but not screaming in pain. You'd still have a local in effect for wherever the doc is actually cutting. You'd just wake up instead of sleep through it. Not the best thing to wake up to sure, but not the same as waking up in the middle of open heart surgery or something.