from the fixing-the-teachers-should-help dept.
Active problem-solving confers a deeper understanding of science than does a standard lecture. But some university lecturers are reluctant to change tack.
Outbreak alert: six students at the Chicago State Polytechnic University in Illinois have been hospitalized with severe vomiting, diarrhea and stomach pain, as well as wheezing and difficulty in breathing. Some are in a critical condition. And the university's health centre is fielding dozens of calls from students with similar symptoms.
This was the scenario that 17 third- and fourth-year undergraduates dealt with as part of an innovative virology course led by biologist Tammy Tobin at Susquehanna University in Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania. The students took on the role of federal public-health officials, and were tasked with identifying the pathogen, tracking how it spreads and figuring out how to contain and treat it — all by the end of the semester.
In the end, the students pinpointed the virus, but they also made mistakes: six people died, for example, in part because the students did not pay enough attention to treatment. However, says Tobin, "that doesn't affect their grade so long as they present what they did, how it worked or didn't work, and how they'd do it differently". What matters is that the students got totally wrapped up in the problem, remembered what they learned and got a handle on a range of disciplines. "We looked at the intersection of politics, sociology, biology, even some economics," she says.
Tobin's approach is just one of a diverse range of methods that have been sweeping through the world's undergraduate science classes. Some are complex, immersive exercises similar to Tobin's. But there are also team-based exercises on smaller problems, as well as simple, carefully tailored questions that students in a crowded lecture hall might respond to through hand-held 'clicker' devices. What the methods share is an outcome confirmed in hundreds of empirical studies: students gain a much deeper understanding of science when they actively grapple with questions than when they passively listen to answers.
http://www.nature.com/news/why-we-are-teaching-science-wrong-and-how-to-make-it-right-1.17963
Original Submission
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday July 16 2015, @05:07AM
I wonder how the six managed to present what they did and how they'd do it differently from beyond the grave?
Another question: would being infected by another student working on the same assignment qualify as plagiarism?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Interesting) by captain normal on Thursday July 16 2015, @05:43AM
Apparently it was a fictitious death. Just like the fictitious link to an un-pay-walled "Nature" article. WTF?
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts"- --Daniel Patrick Moynihan--
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @01:52PM
and how they'd do it differently
"For a different approach with better results, we suggest not dieing"
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @05:12AM
Seriously, schools are just abysmal in general (except perhaps the best of the best universities), so it's no surprise that science is being taught incorrectly. They're treated as mere trade schools that people can go to to get fame, glory, and money, so it's not surprising when standards drop due to a corporate takeover. Real education suffers when education stops being the primary goal.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by VortexCortex on Thursday July 16 2015, @06:49AM
Obligatory explanation of why schools are now crap. [youtube.com]
Hint: They're dumbing kids down to make a more easily manipulated populace. Watch the video if you disagree. "Common Core" is just the latest iteration of this decades old agenda. Elites will educate their kids in private schools, thus maintaining an "innovator" class and a "worker" class; That's why Gates pushes for Common Core while keeping his kids away from that crap.
As for the topic. I rather like the way some Japanese schools teach. Even in mathematics the teacher will put a problem up on the board and ask the kids to group up and solve it prior to having learned the method. Most will get the answer wrong, some will get it right via a round about way, very few will intuit the principal. Then the teacher reveals the method and the students realize its value. Humans are tool using creatures, so they'll learn more quickly that which they value. Working learned skills into a student selected hobby project is an even better method since you can easily answer the very smart question, "When will I ever use this knowledge?" with "Right now!". IMO, curriculum free schooling [wikipedia.org] is the best method for K-12 education since everyone learns different things at different rates and times in their socio/political/mental development... the literal ignorance of this fact by educators and the "grade level" system being the obvious primary cause of educational retardation (the "teachers" are all fools).
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @08:41AM
Well, as long as they intuit the teacher, I guess everything is OK. They can learn who's the principal later.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday July 16 2015, @09:43AM
Watch the video if you disagree
No. Use your words. If you cannot put the objection in a coherent paragraph, and have to insist on a youtube video, they we will certainly be aware of just where (and whose?) education has failed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @10:01AM
they we will certainly
Amazing work.
But I'd say it gets tiring typing the same things over and over again, so linking to something that explains your point is a better use of time.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by FlyingSock on Thursday July 16 2015, @11:49AM
Well no. I for one have no interest in watching random videos.
If you care enough, that you have explained the same thing 'over and over again' and have link saved to the video, why have you not also saved a paragraph explaining your point?
In case you are now going to complain, that you are not required to explain anything to me, I would of course agree. But by the same token neither am I required to 'watch the video if [I] disagree'. If you wish to bring a point across please have it fit in the format of discussion. Which here is text. I do not think videos are a useful medium for dialogue. Quoting is difficult, as is looking up a point made in some previous sentence and discussing that which is said.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @11:58AM
If you care enough, that you have explained the same thing 'over and over again' and have link saved to the video, why have you not also saved a paragraph explaining your point?
And then people would complain that it's spam.
Also, what I mostly object to is that person implying that your education is lacking simply because you link to a video.
Which here is text.
Links to videos are text.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @05:51PM
they / we will certainly
FTFY/U
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @03:01PM
I cannot agree with your response any more strongly, you could even say you wanted to paint the moon pink and call it Lenin. I'd still agree with the premise of your reply about the educational system and means of learning and means of conveying knowledge.
Anyone that has to point to a video is like saying the information speaks for itself. It conveys to me the speaker has no knowledge or authority on the topic. I may be wrong or biased at that point; redirecting me elsewhere certainly doesn't reflect much confidence in the subject matter if the speaker has no desire to go into it themselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @03:57PM
That's just silly. It says nothing other than the information linked to is worth a look. Possibly to save time and effort by linking to something the poster believes is adequate.
Those are very arbitrary 'rules' you have there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @05:55PM
Those are very arbitrary 'rules' you have there.
But are there cats in this video? One of my arbitrary "rules" is that I only watch videos on the intertubes that have cats in them. Cats doing funny things. Most of what I have learned I learned from "Icanhazcheezburger.com". Sheepskin, pleaz!!! Nom, nom, nom.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Geotti on Thursday July 16 2015, @06:52AM
[...] schools are just abysmal in general (except perhaps the best of the best universities) [...]
Schools provide the facilities that can be used or ignored. They're like technology that is morally agnostic.
Sure, some offer more opportunities, but these opportunities have to be used by the students.
Real education suffers when education stops being the primary goal.
Exactly, except that the students are just as well a part of this equation. I.e. if you turn this around and assume that there someone who really wants to become an erudite, that goal will be achieved irrespective of a school going out of its way to only teach a trade for "fame, glory, and money."
At least this is my conviction.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @08:03AM
Schools provide the facilities that can be used or ignored. They're like technology that is morally agnostic.
Sure, some offer more opportunities, but these opportunities have to be used by the students.
I'm not even going to bother going to a school/university if they're not even teaching anything properly; if the staff is incompetent, or they're so burdened by incompetent bureaucrats, then that school has serious issues that make it not worthwhile. Which is why I encourage self-education, which is what I chose to do.
It's not simply a problem with the students. Most schools are just bad all around, and if schools are forcing students to do assignments, go to lectures, and take exams that are garbage, then their time is being wasted; that time could be used to do something more useful.
I.e. if you turn this around and assume that there someone who really wants to become an erudite, that goal will be achieved irrespective of a school going out of its way to only teach a trade for "fame, glory, and money."
Then that is self-education that has absolutely nothing to do with the school. Might as well not waste your time and money.
But many of the students who go there for fame, glory, and money create an environment where that is expected, and so many schools are all too happy to encourage it. There are problems with both schools and the students.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @09:46AM
I'm not even going to bother going to a school/university
Yes, we noticed. Have a nice life!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @10:05AM
Nice refutation. Is this the sort of individual our 'wonderful' schools pump out by the thousands?
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Friday July 17 2015, @12:59AM
It's really not about the work that is laid upon you. You can consider this being a price in addition to the possible price tag (if you choose/have to live in a country, with paid higher education) and a formality.
What you get as a bare minimum is access to scientific databases, which would cost you much, much more, if paid for individually. In addition to that, you can get in touch with peers and faculty, which are undoubtedly helpful. Also, many schools will provide you with equipment (e.g. labs, equipment, machinery, etc.).
Many schools will let you choose most of your courses, so when you choose "garbage" that is mostly going to be your fault. Except, of course, fundamentals such as e.g. math, statistics, etc. which you may not recognize as being necessary to truly excel in technical fields until it "clicks."
For someone who wants to learn, almost any school is going to be an aid, as you will be able to learn much more, and achieve a higher level of education quality than you possibly could as an auto-didact; in almost all cases.
As for the fame and glory part, well... There's bad apples everywhere.
(Score: 2) by gnuman on Thursday July 16 2015, @05:16AM
students gain a much deeper understanding of science when they actively grapple with questions than when they passively listen to answers.
I'm not sure, but this is kind of a no-brainer. If you have knowledge + experience, you tend to understand something a little better than with knowledge alone.
There is a reason why surgeons start with cadavers and then to assistants before performing any surgeries as leads. Pictures in book are not the same as real world scenarios. This applies to all disciplines, not just science related ones.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by anubi on Thursday July 16 2015, @06:35AM
Kinda reminded me of an engineering project I did at university about 40 years ago.
At that time, test equipment was quite unavailable on my budget, but I did have a 3" CRT I had scrounged from some old equipment. I was going to build my own oscilloscope.
All during my high school years, I had been scrounging. I had a nice assortment of tubes from TV sets, and was convinced those IF tubes (6CB6) for TV sets would make great deflection amplifier tubes. They would easily handle the 300V or so I needed to deflect the CRT beam. I knew TV IF was right at 45MHz, so I should have no problem building an oscilloscope to make it to 10MHz, right?
So I built the thing. Used everything I knew about differential amplifier design.
When I turned it on, it worked beautifully... up to 5KHz. Not MHz.... KHz!
Not a great thing to discover a week before I was to present this to the class. Boy, was I disappointed. Beautiful bright beam, but did not even make it out of the audio range.
I never forgot the lesson I learned... about plate resistance and driving capacitive loads.
It was a lot of fun anyway to build the thing. Learned a lot. The professor liked it even if it did not work worth a hoot. He gave me a good grade - despite its piss poor performance, because I explained to his satisfaction exactly what I had done wrong and what I would change on the next revision of the design.
I think he was impressed because most of the other students built their projects from a kit. Mine was 99% recycled old scrap parts. Even the CRT shield was a soup can. The only thing that was new was the aluminum chassis I built it in. l I gotta admit, it sure *looked* impressive. Like a movie prop.
I am a strong believer that experience is a really good teacher.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 17 2015, @12:21AM
You are my hero. Seriously. Massive respect. I'm sure you learned much more than than all the other students in the class combined. If I were the professor, I would have recognized that I was in the presence of a budding genius and given you an 'A'. Are you accepting applications for a protege? Where do I apply?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Friday July 17 2015, @08:57AM
Thanks...
Actually, I did get an A. The professor even warned me to watch out for the plate resistance thing.
I had copies of schematics of the college's oscilloscope that I had talked one of the engineering lab assistants into getting for me, as he had access to the departmental files of the test equipment we had. I was basing my design similar to that of our Dumont 304. Except I wanted to use a smaller CRT, and felt those 6CB6 were designed for high frequency. I had built enough audio amplifiers that I was quite comfortable designing around pentodes - and how to set all the grid biasing voltages knowing I was going to have quite a voltage swing on the plate.
If you feel so inclined, google those old Dumont 304a oscilloscopes... and you will see what was "new" when I was a kid.
These were just beginning to get old enough that they were showing up all over the place.
After studying "cascode" amplifiers and the "grounded grid" configuration in class, I was all starry-eyed about driving the cathodes of a pair of 6CB6 differentially from a pair of transistors... a differential cascode amplifier if you will.... with the collectors of the bottom transistor part ( long tailed pair of 2N697 ) in cascode with the cathodes of the 6CB6; control grid of which was "grounded" at +12V, screen grid about +120 volts, suppressor grid at cathode potential, and plate voltage expected +50 to +300 volts DC. I knew I could set the operating current via the long tailed transistor pair resistor, then set the plate voltages by the plate resistor to +350V, so that I could very neatly swing one plate down and the other up simultaneously to make a very clean differential sweep drive for the CRT.
I guess you know why I was using vacuum tubes... transistors were just then coming out. I considered myself extremely fortunate to get two pair of 2N697. The university had some. I do not believe that at that time, transistors with anything near 300 volt ratings even existed...
I was so enthused over the prospect of running everything so clean, differentially, so that I could drop all the way down to DC that I completely ignored all the capacitance I was throwing into the plate circuit with all my neat cabling. I was completely deluded by dreams of UHF grounded-grid designs that I saw in the Radio Amateur's handbook.
And I was so tickled to be designing with something so new.... a TRANSISTOR!. These were so new and it was the first silicon one I had ever seen. I had built some amplifiers with germanium transistors and they were not the easiest things to work with... they changed specs with temperature all over the place. Noisy too. Or, at least, the ones I had were noisy. It was hard trying to get me to abandon my 12AX7 and 6AK5 vacuum tubes for that. ( I loved 6AK5 for microphone and guitar preamps... these tubes were made for TV tuners, but they sure made nice low noise microphone amps! Easy to come by too - as living in a military town at the time, I could get my hands on expired radiosondes, and a lot of them had one in them... but I did have to unsolder them - they did not put any sockets in the radiosonde. )
I will warn you that having insane curiosity to "re-invent the wheel" does not seem to be much appreciated by the business crowd. I only wish I was in the position of hiring proteges. I would invite you over. In my mind, the most important thing I look for is insane curiosity. Anyone can buy a degree ( cite: congressmen and even presidents of the USA ). If you do not have curiosity, you are like a static charge - all voltage and no current.
I feel I was quite fortunate when I came out of University to work for some of the best at Chevron Oil Field Research in La Habra. Chevron had a whole flock of really top-notch scientists and engineers there, and I worked under them. Two in particular, Zeke and Jon, showed me more stuff than I could ever absorb. It was several years before I began to understand at their level. This team of engineers and scientists DID the stuff that students study at university. I really hated to leave the place when they shut down during an oil glut in the 80's.
I ended up going to a local aerospace firm that got bought out by Wall Street, and I utterly failed to shift gears to a more businesslike pace. I tried to adapt, but I guess the adage about teaching old dogs new tricks rang true. A lot of us old dogs had to be put to pasture. Simply weren't fast enough. I know that was true in my case.
I feel I have finally reached "Zeke" status, and actually I find it quite painful to know I have finally amassed an understanding of how most of this stuff works, but unlike Zeke and Jon, no one to pass it to. They had me and three other young whippersnappers to teach. Seems such a shame that I cannot even teach at the local community college as I technically only have a bachelor's degree in EE ( despite hundreds of hours of college courses not in matriculation programs ), and they want a Master's to teach. I was not in a classroom all those years... I was in the field working with those who were actually doing the stuff that they taught in University.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 18 2015, @09:57AM
Have you visited your local hackspace?
You sound like the sort of person that they would welcome.
https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/List_of_Hacker_Spaces [hackerspaces.org]
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Friday July 17 2015, @01:17AM
Haha, that is the sort of experience that allows someone to tell others to get off their lawn later in life! ;)
(Score: 2, Insightful) by anubi on Friday July 17 2015, @05:01AM
Wishful thinking!
I will be brutally honest with my reply... it may rile some feathers ... but this has been my experience doing things as I have.
I always wanted so bad to understand thoroughly what I was doing - but I often took too long to do it. You know... business perspective.
The guys who built from a kit, with plans already laid out for them, got the same degree I did.
And spent a lot less time doing it.
End result... they developed more "people skills" and can hire someone else to fix their broken things.
I can design my own things and fix my own stuff.
I got laid off from aerospace and never did get back into the job market, and now less than a year from social security and medicare, I am not really trying to re-enter the rat race.
I tried a few times, trying to work with companies who had robotics to maintain... however they wanted me for close to minimum wage - and on call. Most did not want me around because they already had support agreements with major service corporations. At the wage I was earning, it cost me damn near what I earned, sans tax, to work.
I saw all the neat things I could do with Arduinos and Parallax propeller chips. Things like I used to do for satellites. Except this time, using dirt cheap parts. Only problem is it takes me sometimes months to build something from scratch... just as at it took me several months to build that oscilloscope.
When I build mine, I do not use Arduinos per se, but I use the software development platform, which is quite good, and use ATMEL 328P chips and the like. Although my stuff may not look like any Arduino you have ever seen, they all have the Optiboot software running in them, have the six pin serial programming port, and use Arduino sketches. My strong belief is that if I do things this way, anyone else who inherits what I have done has a good start at maintaining or modifying what I have done into something else he needs.
Not only do I design the hardware, I will have to write a lot of the software too - as I am pulling off all sorts of tradeoffs as to what I will do in silicon or in code. The kind of stuff that interests me is energy management, refrigeration, solar panel optimization, battery management, and thermodynamics such as ice-bank thermal energy storage stuff.
I do not even know who to talk to in a larger company for consideration for hire in this kind of thing. Its futile trying to talk to personnel... can you imagine my frustration trying to get someone like that turned on to the idea of storing energy as a block of ice? Here, I am excited as I know I can use something as simple as water to build an energy storage module that is far far far cheaper and more reliable than trying to store the energy as a chemical reaction stored in battery cells. Especially when the end result I wanted in the first place was to be able to control the temperature of something.
Its something I would love to implement at WalMart or Disneyland. They have so many opportunities for energy management there, but how in the heck does one even find anyone in those companies to talk to? Unsolicited letters just get trashed. Job fairs? Forget it. The interviewers have no idea what a joule is. They seem pre-occupied with a wish-list of minions to hire for entry level.
Headhunters send me barrages of inquiries for highly personal data, which is then not guarded properly and distributed to those who do nothing but cause me problems with identity theft. Companies complain of not finding qualified applicants. They seem to be having the same problem as I would have if I first welded my water main shut then complained I had no water.
I am not a real social person, so I have no idea who to talk to. Talking to someone technical may even be worse, as he is apt to perceive me as his replacement.
So far, I have remained really low key. I would love to work for someone who appreciates the kind of stuff I am capable of, but I would rather remain at a low income level than have to tolerate someone in my life constantly snapping his fingers - push, push, push, now, now, now. Who cares if its junk as long as it gets done today... all for some management bonus I will never see. I simply cannot do things that way.
When I have to pay for others to do things I could have done myself if I was not at at work, I end up on the losing end of it.
It cost me more of my resources to go to work than I was making.
I simply cannot stand working under a stopwatch. Drives my blood pressure through the roof and makes dark spots show up all over me.
The money-men want the suit and tie guy, and I am the guy with the solder iron and test probe. Guys with the leadership skills to lay working men off are needed a lot more in this country than men of the tool, as we are blessed by the signature of the banker to pay for someone overseas that will do it for less.
Yeh, I have become quite a bit pessimistic after my layoff... but seeing the graphs I have seen [google.com], everyone is seeing the same thing.
Given the leadership of this nation, our tax codes, and our legislation, it seems prudent just to take what I have, go tri-state, and try my best to go "off the grid".
I have been to the mall and am watching the stores shutting down as more and more people have had their jobs exported, and - like me - are no longer spending.
I now sit watching the convergence of debt and our ability to pay. I get the idea that these lines are going to cross about mid-September or so.
There are a lot of YouTube videos showing up about this as well. I do not believe any of the interstellar or messianic causality, but I am of the strong belief that having everyone so far in debt is an extremely unstable situation, which is not going to end well. I have seen the frustrations I have had trying to start up my own company - especially when it came to hiring anyone... and how little our politicians - local, state, and federal - value the segment of our population that has the technical skills to actually do anything. I see thousands highly skilled technical people... homeless. While manipulative types bask in wealth. Per tax law.
We went through it in 2000 ( dot.com bubble ), 2007-8 ( real-estate bubble ) and now we are coming up on 2015-6 ( car title loan/student loan bubble ).
One thing I have noted is a strong correlation between the late-night TV running of "flip this house" type real-estate free seminar shows that has uncannily preceded every crash by about six months. I believe these shows are financed by the banks who are stoking up another round of frenzied buying, which will be followed by fed rate hike, followed by inability of the borrowers to pay the note, followed by another round of foreclosures. Except this time, we are going into this with the fed rates at zero percent, meaning the fed can't drop interest rates another four percent to inject yet more loans into the market.
I get the idea things are likely to crash. If companies have to rely on their own local talent to keep their machines going, I may have a job. Otherwise, its really hard to compete with H1-B or simply having them sending the whole shebang to China to have it built.
I know this is kinda lengthy, so I have waited until this topic is stale to post it. I kinda want to leave this on a public forum as my take on where I see this nation going.
I believe our politicians have sold us out to the bankers, who will end up owning everything, yet all they did was provide pen and forms. The so-called money the bankers can print from thin air existed only in people's minds, and they let the banking elite take everything they had... with nothing more than a pen - backed up by the armed forces of the United States of America. The villian is nothing more than a mathematical construct known as "fractional reserve banking" combined with usury. A terrible financial illusion used by an elite few to rob an entire nation of its wealth - right out from under its nose.
I know this is kinda lengthy, so I have waited until this topic is stale to post it. I want to leave this on a public forum as my take on where I see this nation going.
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Friday July 17 2015, @01:13PM
I for one would
preferlove to have people like you on my team vis-a-vis jackasses, who only know how to please the TA by working through and checking off bullet points.It's people like you, who have the capability to enact real change and actually create something. Unfortunately for both of us, (besides being across the Atlantic) I'm also still stuck with my masters thesis, so it'll be a while until I could make you a proper offer. Who cares if a project takes a year instead of a month, in the end, it's this that is going to last an eternity in contrast to the cheap plastic crap. For many, quality trumps anything else.
But, maybe the key is decentralization?
For instance, I know this guy, who's an EE, but he's really turned more into a salesman, because he insisted on having a small computer store for years instead of making money. We come up with the occasional great idea there from time to time, but both lack the resources (mostly time) to implement them, as he has to keep the store running (i.e. fix computers and set up wi-fi routers for clients) and me - see above.
So yeah, maybe you just need to connect to the right people, who will let you do your thing and organize the social aspect for/with you? But keep in mind that you don't have to work at a big company to do big projects. You just need a product that is competitive and for big installations quality will play a crucial factor. Also, if you're interested in regenerative energy, look at places like Greece, where there are a lot of people who need quality builds that they can rely on, which won't cost the whole world, due to the subventions for an army of marketeers and bureaucrats. (I can provide you with one or two contacts there as well, but there may be even better places.)
Thinking about that, maybe you can try approaching some organizations that do stuff in/for third world countries?
Don't despair!
(Score: 1) by anubi on Saturday July 18 2015, @01:10AM
I find your remark about working in third world countries quite intriguing.
I kinda believe I belong in the third world, as America has become a mature ( meaning no longer growing ) economy whose main assets are not factories, but bankers, salesmen, celebrities, politicians, and a military to enforce the will of same onto the rest of the world.
A few weeks ago, there was a discussion on using makerbots. I was quite intrigued and offered another of my diatribes about my grandpa, and how much I was taken in by how he was so self-sufficient that I believed he could survive anything except an attack by government. My grandpa was a farmer - and as a kid, I was so taken in by all the machinery he had at the farm... and how he would teach me what it was for. I remarked I saw so few men that were like my grandpa.
One of the replies [soylentnews.org] took me by surprise, but it was very insightful.
I have thought a lot about that reply and realized how true it is.
One of the little pet projects I am running on the side is a little water desalinator that works like a magnetohydrodynamic generator in reverse. I pass an electric current through moving salty water so I can exert force on it with a magnet. The saltier the water, the better it conducts, and the more force I can put on it.
I use techniques similar to uranium enrichment to separate enriched from depleted salinity water. Very similar to vortex refrigeration for separating warm and cool air.
Its a tradeoff between the force I can exert on the water with the magnet, the difference in salinity of the "depleted" and "enriched" sidestreams and osmotic pressure which relentlessly wants to remix the streams. So I end up using many in cascade. Just like they do to enrich uranium.
One of my friends has some contacts in China.
If I get my prototype running and know for sure this works the way I think it should work, I believe he will help me get established to make them in China.
Right now, I have the project on hold until I can get a 3D printer to make the separator channels. The last round of tax took the money I was saving to buy the printer.
China is the main source of the neodymium I need for the magnets. The third world could probably use the water from these things. Over here in America, we can just print the money to pay for stuff as well as pay for the execu-managerial skills of telling people like me not to reinvent the wheel. Its the benefit of having the world reserve currency. The bankers print up as much money as our politicians want as long as our politicians use the Armed Forces of the United States of America to enforce the signatures of their pen. So, we are pretty fortunate as we can just "raise the debt ceiling" to pay for whatever we want from someone else.
Nobody seems to build stuff here anymore. I end up getting darned near everything I use from China. If not WalMart, its AliExpress. America attracts people more important to society: Bankers. Politicians. Salesmen. Sports players. Hollywood celebrities. And most importantly, the ability to back up the pen with unlimited physical force ( nuclear, if need be ). We have "illegal aliens" come in to do the backbreaking manual labor for a pittance of scrip.
There was an episode on Star Trek about Scotty trapping himself in a transporter beam loop for a hundred years, only to be released into a world where he was useless. I feel that way a lot.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Saturday July 18 2015, @07:02AM
Really, from what I read, you should disregard the banksters and just do your thing. It's an easy excuse (and/or trap to fall into) to indulge in defeatism, but the enthusiasm comes (back) all by itself once you get back to working on your dream(s). As an engineer, maybe it's better to focus on the solution instead of the (tangential) problems.
Regarding your design, you can always print stuff somewhere else [1-5] , at least for the prototype and until you get the funds together, or you can start a kickstarter or indiegogo with minimal "soft skills." That's also where your "street" cred would come in handy, as I imagine many more would vest trust in someone who's capable of coming up with his own designs instead of using a kit. You can also use software like Solidworks & co. to get the right design up front, so you minimize print runs.
[1] https://www.stratasysdirect.com/technologies/direct-metal-laser-sintering/ [stratasysdirect.com]
[2] https://materialise-onsite.com/en/TechnologySelector/Materials [materialise-onsite.com]
[3] http://www.3dsystems.com/quickparts/investment-casting-patterns/quickmetal-plaster-mold-casting [3dsystems.com]
[4] http://www.3dsystems.com/quickparts/prototyping-pre-production/directmetalprinting-dmp [3dsystems.com]
(Score: 1) by anubi on Saturday July 18 2015, @08:12AM
Thanks for the links! I will have to look into those.
Actually, the plastic is what I need... so I can get the water flows, electrode positions, and the magnets all held in the proper orientation.
The problem about machining the channels so precisely is the flow has to be laminar. Any turbulence only remixes the streams. Part of how this thing works is based on bernoulli effects - similar to those used in fluidic computers.
( Yes, there is a such thing as a fluidic computer.... google it if you do not believe me. )
You are so right... it is very easy to fall into defeatism, when one gets so discouraged that one decides that pursuing something is futile. What makes it so frustrating to me is I see no physical explanation why this will not work; I believe there is a great need for it; yet I see very little interest in it. I get the idea business is not interested because once one sees this thing, he can go off and make his own and not worry about patents. It looks scalable on any level from cups to swimming-pool fulls. Knowing me, I will release what I do under the MIT license and tell 'em to have at it. I am not big enough to protect a patent anyway - but I would like to know that a lot of people could get fresh water out of this thing from the oceans or other sources of salty water. If I can get this thing running, I will probably end up putting it up on YouTube along with links to the files to print the channels and where to get the magnets. I do not want this to be another Bedini motor thing that has done nothing but get everyone's hopes up and only pranksters on YouTube seem to be able to make operable units. I have been watching another jokester based in Italy stringing people along for years promising unlimited power, but allows no-one except handpicked people to evaluate his system.
I am sure if I release such a thing, I will see patent attorneys throwing cease and desist letters all over the place. Business may not want to have much to do with creating something, but they will spend money on lawyers to tell other people they can't do stuff - and our Congress will back them up. That is why I think its so important these things be made in such a way people can make their own and not involve the elite and their pens and paperwork.
Good excuse to start learning Solidworks.
As usual, I have no intention of involving investors until I am sure my end is solid.... if there is one thing I hate to do, its to get someone else's resources - whether it be tools or funds - and screw it up. When I can put this in a truck, drive over to the Pacific Ocean ( not far from me ), drop the inlet hose in the sea, and send potable water out the other end, then I will invite the others to work with this design and take it to the next level. Most likely out of China.
If I can make this work, then I will know I have enough "street cred" to take this further.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Saturday July 18 2015, @09:13AM
The links I supplied before all link to metal printing, if it's plastic you want, that makes it a lot simpler and cheaper, as there are quite a few online services that you could turn to (most well-known being shapeways probably).
But maybe it would still be a good thing to keep in the back of your head that you can print titanium parts as well. As a matter of fact, with tools like Within (http://www.withinlab.com) you could probably make a printed structure much lighter but at the same time more robust/resilient/flexible than a traditionally manufactured one [citation needed].
Regarding patents, just be a pirate and throw it out in the open under a pseudonym, similar to how "they" did it with bitcoin.
And finally, I have a similar attitude to taking other people's money, but if you clearly state that this is experimental and all you need is for a thousand people to chip in a tenner, it'd still be worthwhile for them, even if the design does not work out as long as you document it etc. Even Billy is supposedly investing in disrupting technology as he believes that iterating on existing tech will fail to bring us forward as much as we need to attain a sustainable future. There's a lot of other people willing to invest in projects, where the risk may be much higher than usual, but the potential for change would be far greater than with "traditional" means. I know I would.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Monday July 20 2015, @09:02AM
About the patents... I am not the first to think of flowing a current through water so I can exert force on it with a magnet.
If one googles "magnetohydrodynamic desalination" [google.com], they will get a good start on what I am tinkering with.
Another similar technique is the "Linear Kinetic Cell" offered by Ener-Tec (PDF) [ener-tec.com]. That one is mostly for addressing scale buildup in heat exchangers. I am concerned the field orientation is not proper for desalination.
As far as tinkering with LKC's, I do have three old dryer motors I could sacrifice for their copper wire, which I could wind onto common plastic drain pipe and excite it from DC and up to see if I can get any unusual behaviour from a flow of briny water in it. I already have a good quantity of ammonium sulfate to tinker with... it, like sodium chloride, is ionic, and will conduct. However the ammonium sulfate is also quite useful as lawn fertilizer, so disposal is not a problem. I hate to buy anything I cannot recycle one way or another.
The design of my magnetohydrodynamic unit uses neodymium magnets where the flux is perpendicular to the flow, which is deflected by lorentz forces acting between the magnetic flux, the current flow in the water, and the inertia/fluid dynamics of the water. I use techniques very similar to fluidic computers to control the flows, as what I am working on would probably best be described as a hybrid fluidic analog computer.
I did not know what I was doing was called until I started horsing around with magnets, dishes of water, and injecting power just to see if the water would behave in a magnetic field like a motor winding would. Its such a tricky spelling I linked it directly, as just spelling the name of it correctly is a feat accompli.
YouTube is full of videos describing water doing strange things when you get containers of it at resonance. Nothing that defies physics, but some of it sure looks unusual. I could not help but think that I might be able to separate salinity of water using the same concepts as vortex and acoustic refrigeration.
If nothing else, I can sure make some unusual artwork with this. Using the water as a lens/prism and using multicolored LED arrays, there seems almost a limitless amount of water art I could construct if I were so inclined, using magnets, lorentz forces, and resonances to excite the water at different points.
Being I have had a lot of experience in the thermodynamics of heat transfer and phase change, as well as the electronic design of embedded controllers, if anyone could pull this off, I would be as good as any.
Especially, being unemployed and having the time to work on it.
I do not have that much money, but I do have plenty of "stuff". It just takes time to rebuild the stuff into what I need.
I have this shelved for now as I need to use my resources for other things... number one keeping the tax men fed and making good on debt service.
I do not want to drag myself down so much economically I end up working as a greeter for WalMart. That would take up all the time I need to do other things.
Right now, most of my work is on my Arduino and Propeller boards. And tinkering around with the actuators.
I will be needing those embedded resources to control everything else. Including the fluidic artwork which I intend to do as training exercises in fluidic resonance. I have to build up my infrastructure in the sequences in which I will use them.
I figure in a couple of years, I will be onto Social Security and have enough money to pursue actually building the desalinator.
I know this whole thing is a lot like that first oscilloscope.... I am apt to build it and be disappointed. But maybe I will learn enough from the ones that did not work to let me build one that does. I would have a hard time making promises to anyone when I do not know myself if what I want to build will even work. This is a personal curiosity quest I am going to have to do at my own pace and as my resources permit.
I know I am getting a little wordy with these diatribes, but I do have an ulterior motive for doing it. I want my work left on a public forum in case anyone is doing similar research or needs some evidence to say such things are already prior art. I also want a public timestamped record as to when I was discussing these things. If I am successful, but it took me years to do it due to something as simple as funding, it might give others who are in position to evaluate people the tolerance to let them try, even if they see it is "reinventing the wheel". I know I got into trouble on the job for trying to do things in unusual ways. I guess its something like OCD, where I seem compelled to do things that I have never seen before, kinda like wanting to take roads I have never taken before just because I do not know what is there. I pay the price for that curiosity, but then at least, like Frank Sinatra used to say, I'll do it my way. Even if I greet you at WalMart.
I see employers lamenting a shortage of technical people. I am of the strong belief we have absolute floods of very good technical people... all we need is tolerance to let us create. I do not believe anyone can create all caged up in a cubicle... neat rows of us like hens caged at an egg farm, with the manager constantly putting grain in the feed slot and expecting eggs at the other chute. They tried to do that to me, and I could not do anything in those conditions.
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Monday July 20 2015, @01:06PM
Really, I maybe understand a small part of what you're up to, but if you want a record, maybe a gist on github [github.com] is a good idea? It will keep revisions together with dates, so maybe it would be more suitable to keeping a record.
I am concerned the field orientation is not proper for desalination.
I'm not sure if that is at all possible, but couldn't you adjust the orientation dynamically? Like, uhm, an FPGA, or something? (Sorry, I lack the physics theory to be of more use here...)
Anyway, also maybe use sites like freelancer.com instead of working as a greeter? It'd probably be much more productive. It sounds like you live in a rural area, so, again, use the internet instead of constraining yourself to local businesses. If what you can do is going to benefit a lot of people then wouldn't that be a great motivation.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Monday July 27 2015, @09:01AM
Yes... it would make me feel a lot better if I knew others were interested, however at present, I feel like an an old red hen [wikipedia.org].
Its discouraging when I see how much our Government pays for the administrative skill to lay off domestic engineers, and how little our work means.
If I can get the desalinator working, my only hope is some friends who have relatives in China that may take an interest in replicating it.
Incidentally, was it you that remarked you lived "across the pond". England? I am quite impressed by Pico Technology over there. I have three of their oscilloscopes. I have recently bought some fantastic little Parallax Propeller based VGA controller modules from "HobbyTronics" in England as well.
I am seeing where more and more I am seeing other countries take the lead in this high-tech stuff. Especially Japan. Even the Arduino I am so fond of originated in Italy. A lot of the software tools I use came out of Russia.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Tuesday July 28 2015, @08:14PM
England?
Currently - Germany, so if you need someone to source you stuff from there/here, just ping me here.
and how little our work means.
The work means a lot to people. I think it's better to ignore governments (and corporations) in the case of a greater good.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @05:20AM
I do scientific problem solving all the time. I apply my knowledge to my life. I didn't go to university to get some extra problems to solve, I went to get the knowledge to solve them. I have plenty of problems and no desire to pay tons of money for more. Maybe some people don't use the stuff they learn: they can take a class in applied knowledge if they really don't know how to think yet, but leave the science lectures alone. You can gain a lot more knowledge in an hour via lecture than most other means.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @05:45AM
There's a difference between having simply memorized some knowledge and actually understanding it. Simple lectures may well not be the best way to achieve understanding.
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Friday July 17 2015, @01:20AM
It looks to me, the gp pointed out that for many it is insufficient to learn fundamentals through application and thus, the need to have theoretical and applied courses that build on top of each other.
(Score: 2) by penguinoid on Thursday July 16 2015, @06:06AM
Yeah, I remember playing the Pandemic board game. Lots of fun, but I didn't get any college credit for it ;-)
I wonder if the college will release some educational games from previous semesters?
RIP Slashdot. Killed by greedy bastards.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday July 16 2015, @06:24AM
I feel that many topics are taught perhaps not wrong but in ways that make no sense to me.
Richard Feynman taught Caltech's physics X one hour once per week. We could asany question we wanted provided he wasnt required to do any math. Purel conceptual discussions over chalkboard diagrams, for the most part depicting the twonslit experiment.
No homework no exams and no grades.
While it is important to learn all that math it does you lnow good if you hsve no conceptual understanding.
I can readily explain things to others that I myself quite difficult.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 17 2015, @12:28AM
What about proper English? Was that also optional?
Besides the math and science, one of the things I learned from getting my Ph.D. in astronomy was the importance of clear written communication. I hope that someday you learn the benefits of that too.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Friday July 17 2015, @07:19AM
does not permit me too.
I didvquite a lot of work on Working Software's Spellswell and Lookup, and ported Spellswell to BeOS.
But I often post from my iPad. While I could port Spellswell to iOS it would do no good.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 4, Informative) by wonkey_monkey on Thursday July 16 2015, @06:40AM
Why We Are Teaching Science Incorrectly
FTFY. C-.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @07:29AM
Incorrectly? That's just wrong.
(Score: 1) by Murdoc on Thursday July 16 2015, @07:11AM
We should be teaching this stuff to our kids. When I was in grade 6 we took turns on the class computer during class. I can't remember what all the kinds of things we could do on it were, but I ended up playing some kind of science game where you were given options on testing a "new" micro-organism for an experiment, after which you had to tell the computer the traits of it and then it would tell you if you were correct. Things like response to light, heat, various kinds of food, and you could control how long the experiment was conducted for, how many organisms there were, how many different traits to test at once, etc. So of course being a kid I started with quick experiments, with few organisms, and tested as many traits as possible at once because I wanted to win quickly. Of course, I failed the experiment. I tried again with fewer traits at a time, more organisms and longer periods of time and sure enough, I started getting right answers (when you win the program names the organism after you). I think I learned more about the basics of science from that one game than I did in most of my science classes afterwards. And as for learning the actual contents of science, many other games taught me those quickly long before I ever took them in school: Chem Lab (a virtual chemistry lab), SimLife, heck even Moon Lander and similar games teach you about gravity, momentum, etc. So yeah, keep the kids engaged I say.
(Score: 2) by Geezer on Thursday July 16 2015, @09:44AM
Agreed, the best courses include a healthy portion of interesting case studies, original projects, and immersive practical problems in addition to the usual lecture+final exam+term paper regimen.
I would assert, however, that the best instructors have always utilized the above techniques, regardless of what new buzznames we want to give them.
The problem isn't the methodology. The problem is lazy, incompetent teachers who fob off their responsibilities to bored, over-worked grad student assistants.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @05:27PM
The problem is lazy, incompetent teachers who fob off their responsibilities to bored, over-worked grad student assistants.
Spoken like a true lazy and incompetent undergraduate!
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @12:18PM
I went to grad school (doctorate in medical related field), by the time I graduated I believed essentially zero of what I was taught by instructors or textbooks either there or as an undergrad. The main reason is that the info is never placed in appropriate historical context along with the limitations and criticisms. Rather, it is misleading presented as (near) anonymous facts. Almost everything I consider myself to have learned was learned on my own by reading primary literature. Thank you internet for making this possible.
WRT this story. I think this approach is better than lectures, but worse than giving them journal access and having them run experiments. The final (and only grade) should be on asking them for at least 10 different ways their results could be interpreted and the limitations of the experiment.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @06:38PM
The sorts of people that go for science undergrads are not anywhere near as insightful or creative to complete that task. The vast majority of them have a fixed viewpoint of low flexibility. That test wold actually be easier for a liberal arts major, trivial for someone in writing, religious studies, or maybe philosophy. If the school puts an emphasis on diversity education, intentionally radically changing viewpoints and cultures, it might work out. Otherwise something like that should wait for graduate classes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @10:08PM
I'd need to see better evidence of this to believe it. However, in your favor, as an undergrad I noticed I was one of few who asked questions. It was probably to the point that it annoyed other students. I am sure some of those questions were really dumb. Anyway, if students choosing science undergrad degrees are as you say then that is all the more reason to challenge them. For example, I didn't write coherently until my third year of high school when a teacher finally gave me an F for writing like crap. After that I quickly learned how to communicate via the written word.
(Score: 2) by JeanCroix on Thursday July 16 2015, @02:16PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @03:22PM
You are showing your science illiteracy, by blindly accepting the media narrative. You should know better than to think they have any idea what they are talking about. First, what percent of people are anti-vaxxers in the US? What percent of people are unvaccinated for measles overall? What is the main reason for not being immune to measles? Interesting that you have never been given this information. How reliable is our data on vaccination rates anyway?
Second, herd immunity only slows the rate at which a virus spreads, which will also increase the amplitude of the outbreaks. If the virus is not eradicated and the proportion of those who get infected drops more so than the proportion of vaccinated, eventually a large enough proportion of susceptible people will build up (due to missed vaccination, vaccination failures, waning immunity) so that huge outbreaks are inevitable:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12176860 [nih.gov]
The measles vaccination program was misguided from the beginning. They thought it would be eradicated in a year:
If you believe the current numbers for vaccination rates (~92%) and measles cases (1000 per year) in the US, the huge epidemic that is bound to occur is just as much due to an overconfident CDC as any anti-vaxxers. I only ask that you educate yourself and THINK before calling others ignorant/idiots/whatever.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @03:43PM
Forgot the source of the second quote: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6939399 [nih.gov]
I may as well also mention a few other things I have discovered. First, another common claim is that anti-vaxxers are aggregating together to sustain measles. This amounts to claiming that there are communities of 200k plus anti-vaxxers somewhere in the US, where is the evidence for this?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106086 [nih.gov]
A second misconception spread by the media is that infants cannot be vaccinated because it is dangerous. This is untrue. The reason that vaccination is delayed one year is because the infants are already protected by maternal antibodies. However, these wane faster when the mother was vaccinated rather than infected:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21133659 [nih.gov]
The obvious solution is to lower the age of vaccination to coincide with the loss of maternal antibodies. Who is responsible for this not occurring? The anti-vaxxers?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @06:12PM
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @06:26PM
I am definitely FOR improved science understanding, if this is something education can accomplish then we are agreed upon that. I just think that disagreeing with popular narratives is not suggestive of poor science understanding.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Alfred on Thursday July 16 2015, @03:04PM
Math, Literature, Grammar, Government, Music, History, Wood Shop, whatever; they have all gone down hill. Each of the parties involved have brought the whole apparatus lower. You cannot blame any one group (students, teachers, curriculum developers, parents) you have to blame them all. Sending your kid to public school is consigning them to the worker class that doesn't need to be anything but repetitive.
I push my kids harder than their school does. I will give them books to read and things to learn. I will put down my video games to help my children be fast at arithmetic. I will invest in objects and experiences to improve them and make them smarter. I will give them an advantage so maybe their kids can go to private schools. I will change the 1.5 things I can change because this is my duty as a parent. Because no one else will do it for me or my children.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 16 2015, @04:03PM
Math, Literature, Grammar, Government, Music, History, Wood Shop, whatever; they have all gone down hill.
They were always awful. It was designed from the beginning to create factory workers and obedient people.
I will put down my video games to help my children be fast at arithmetic.
I would think having a deep, academic understanding of why the math works would be far more important than merely being able to perform calculations quickly. I suppose it could be useful, but even as a mathematician, I'm not too concerned about it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 17 2015, @12:52AM
Yes, "having a deep, academic understanding of why" is the most important. But, first, the student really needs a basic grasp of the "how" part. It's the laying of that "how" foundation which gives the student a basis for appreciating the "why". For example, I have spent countless hours trying to tutor people in algebra only to discover that the real problem the student is having is that they really haven't yet mastered the basics of how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide! Until the student learns that basic arithmetic, algebra will be mere gibberish. And please don't give me a finger-wagging lecture that I was not teaching them in a thoughtful or engaging way. I have tried countless times to appeal to the student's intuition in order to help their understandimng. So far, it has all been to no avail. At least that has been my experience.
(Score: 2) by Alfred on Friday July 17 2015, @02:05PM
Very Yes. Most people don't realize that. Schools are not for the direct benefit of the attendees.
That set of statements was built on the principle of my sacrifice for their gain.
As far as that exact arithmetic example. I don't want them to be some sort of addition Olympics champion, I want them to have reasonably quick subroutines at their disposal. I want them to be able to quickly work the coefficients in a big equation without losing their train of thought on the big picture instead of getting lost because they had to look at their fingers to count. In that way I want them to be able to explore the advanced concepts without being bogged down in the rudimentary.