Chronic fatigue syndrome affects some, is ignored in those who have anything-at-all wrong, might be accepted with a shrug and a pat on the back for the otherwise healthy, and is otherwise unknown. Until now, no one has had anything to go on — but now, there's a way to show that seemingly healthy people are, in fact, affected by something. Well, it's a start.
Using a test to judge the stress of the immune system, researchers at Stanford have now identified those symptomatically diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome as having a condition that is not identified in a control group. While this is very little to go on, it is more than nothing to go on, and so could start a search for a treatment for an otherwise clueless grab at nothing. The simple fact that there is now a distinction is itself news, but also that the research uses a lab-on-a-chip to assess change in current of a sample of immune cells, giving them an indicator of the health (or stress) of the sample is an example of a technology that hasn't been considered until the last few years — and a hint at advances offered by even simple, routine advances of technology.
As a shameless plug, I consulted a trusted holistic health friend (note: whole-health/holistic, not homeopathic/pretend) about CFS, and she mentioned that she feels it's a general toxicity problem. The immune system does play a role in clearing various toxins from the body, so perhaps another clue for researchers to pursue. (Tip: up until 1990, lead-based solder was used in household plumbing. How much that matters, perhaps not a whole lot.)
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:42PM (2 children)
I swear we just had an article about this and I posted that it has the same symptoms as a neverending hangover (which also are not "understood" by medical researchers). So I can totally believe the same thing is happening but the body gets stuck in that state while whatever is going on with a hangover eventually resolves.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:48PM (1 child)
Possibly - but I couldn't see it in the queues for the last few days. We read so many stories I cannot remember which ones were published and which were not. If it is a dupe, then I apologise.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:07PM
Researchers Say They've Created a Blood Test for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/05/01/0924223 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:45PM (12 children)
Magic is Shown to Affect Those It Affects, and Not Those It Doesn't...
(Score: 2) by rigrig on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:56PM (5 children)
Are you saying the witch down the street is causing CFS?
No one remembers the singer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:35PM
AC is not NOT saying that
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:48PM
The bitch down the corridor is clearly causing me to have CFS.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:49PM (2 children)
She turned me into a newt!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:57PM
Oh, so now you're a republican? I hope you're not as ugly! Oy ve!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:11PM
.
.
.
You'll get better.
(Score: 3, Touché) by maxwell demon on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:11PM (1 child)
So by choosing "magic" here you are effectively suggesting that CFS is like magic (i.e. it doesn't exist), but in a way that you can deny having claimed that because formally you just made a statement that's as tautological as the title.
Those who despise such underhanded tactics despise it, and not those who don't.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:48PM
No. I meant it sincerely genuinely honestly, as a related associative model of reality perception. In my own reality, magic does work. If I suddenly get a Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, I use a spell to reflect it back on person who caused it directly. It is you who use underhanded tactics here, to bring a veil of misunderstanding, for you are a maxwell demon so you shall truly know how Chaos magic works.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:22PM (3 children)
Avoiding vaccinations affects those it affects. And also those who don't avoid vaccinations.
What doesn't kill me makes me weaker for next time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:34PM (2 children)
Failure to get drunk affects those it affects, and also everyone around them who they bore to death.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:11PM (1 child)
I could say something about failure to stay sober. Or failure to avoid smoking.
What doesn't kill me makes me weaker for next time.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:51PM
Or anything at all...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:19PM (18 children)
I complained about it. Doctor checked blood oxygen. Ah ha, a quart low! Blood work. Need to take iron supplements. Easy fix.
Advice: tell your doctor if you really are fatigued! What an idea!
Another reason: I don't drink much caffeine, and only before noon. (But I decide to maintain that, sleep is a poor substitute for caffeine, see below)
Later I get diagnosed with particular type of arthritis. That also explains the anemia / iron supplements, as well as other things seemingly unrelated.
Even when you can live with chronic pain (yes you really can!) it still drags you down -- in a fatiguing way. But not dragged down enough to stop me from inflicting bad jokes on people.
Narcotic pain killers can make you fatigued. Yes, really sherlock. So don't take them unless you must.
Advice: get plenty of sleep! This seems so simple. Just give up a stupid TV program and sleep! You won't believe how much better you can feel. Better yet -- get rid of cable tv completely. Guard and protect your free waking hours so you can enjoy them. Learn how to enjoy life. It may not be the things you immediately think of at first.
At most recent visit, the arthritis specialist describes that his patients seem to fall into two groups. Some become more pleasant, happy, peaceful while others become more grouchy and angry. I wonder which group seems more fatigued?
Getting old makes you fatigued. But it doesn't have to make you grouchy.
Using Perl can make you fatigued. Ah, nevermind.
What doesn't kill me makes me weaker for next time.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by HiThere on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:26PM (7 children)
Anemia is not "chronic fatigue syndrome". And there have been tests for that for a very long time.
Yes, anemia will make you chronically fatigued, but that's not sufficient to qualify for the syndrome. So will being very overweight, not exercising, and eating lots of sugar, and that doesn't qualify either.
Don't confuse the name with the thing. I'll admit that when they say it's a syndrome they clearly say that all they have is a collection of symptoms, but one of the symptoms, e.g., is normal levels of blood iron.
The questions are:
1) What's the false positive rate on the test, and
2) What's the false negative rate on the test.
Answering these questions probably requires much larger studies, which are difficult because without the test it's quite difficult to ensure that the patient you're examining actually has the syndrome. Which is why there are so many questionable diagnoses. So the test is really needed.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:34PM (2 children)
My uncle had "full blown" CFS about 20 years ago - they did the full battery of tests, in hospital sleep study, etc. and basically came away with the big shrug. Lots of M.D.s at the time thought it was a psych condition, which is pretty absurd for a recently retired fishing addict who's too tired to get on the boat.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:39PM (1 child)
I would tend to diagnose primary cryptogenic essential (iodpathic) chronic fatigue symptomology..
(Score: 3, Insightful) by realDonaldTrump on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:43PM
The iodpathic is the worst. The absolute worst. Fancy way of saying, Doctors have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER. I call it Noideapathic!!!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:41PM (3 children)
I'm not saying anything about the syndrome. Just pondering reasons one can feel fatigued most of the time.
What doesn't kill me makes me weaker for next time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 08 2019, @02:12AM (1 child)
Masturbation. Next question?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:47PM
It is unclear if you are proposing that as:
* a cause of being fatigued?
* a cure for being fatigued?
* a method of inducing sleep?
* a distraction from being fatigued?
* other?
What doesn't kill me makes me weaker for next time.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:14AM
There's lots of reasons. Starvation can do it, or perhaps that was vitamin or mineral deficiency. IIUC simple vitamin C deficiency sufficient to cause scurvy can cause lethargy, so probably other vitamin deficiencies could also. Untreated sleep apnea can definitely cause chronic fatigue. So can lack of sleep for other reasons. Anemia (ok, that's another mineral deficiency). Etc.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:31PM (7 children)
Easily said, less easy to do... So many "enjoying life" activities depend on weather, coordination of multiple people, etc. that it becomes a tiring activity just to enable the possibility of doing them... much easier to just flop on the sofa and turn on the AV stimulator - and if you want to engage cognitive stimulation with the AV, then you have to stop doing things (restful) and pay attention to the sound and light... unfortunately this cognitive stimulation can become addictive, leading to loss of sleep, neglect of simple household chores (which often then end up getting done before bed), etc.
I say the same about nearly all Microsoft development enviro/language/IDE/things, and most of their "productivity" apps too.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:28AM (6 children)
...whether or not you're done with your mortgage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday May 08 2019, @02:06AM (5 children)
Pro tip: getting rid of your mortgage is nice, but is far from the whole answer.
We got rid of our mortgage by moving from Miami to Houston - same pay, better benefits, and the house was in a nicer neighborhood, twice the square footage, 4x the lot size, and 1/2 the price. Strangely, property taxes were still $5K per year, insurance didn't go down, cars cost the same, as did travel, clothing, food, saving for retirement, etc. Ultimately, the unhealthy air drove us out, and back into a house twice the price.
The mortgage is a big bill, but after you have slain the big beast, you notice the horde.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Farkus888 on Thursday May 09 2019, @07:06PM (4 children)
Never mind the horde... Just a car will do it. A new mid size suv loan is the same as the principle and interest part of my mortgage. A standard student loan payment is not far behind these days. If the wife and I didn't have our young adult professional starter kit debt we could take an all inclusive vacation every month. I can't even imagine being one of the people who fell for credit cards.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 09 2019, @08:47PM (3 children)
My wife's older sister fell for credit: cards, home refinance, buy this couch on credit, you name it.
She had a net worth of essentially zero on her 60th birthday. We've let her squat in her deceased parent's mobile home and essentially given her our half of it without a legal fight - maybe someday she will give us our half when she sells? Not likely. But, rather than give 40% of the value to probate lawyers, and earn her scorn, we've opted to let her earn our scorn instead. So, now she has a net worth of one mobile home, which I expect to see squandered to zero over the next 10 years, at which time she can take her chances with state run elder care.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Farkus888 on Friday May 10 2019, @05:28AM (2 children)
Our current rate of pay has us free and clear in a decade despite the current situation. I could understand still digging out but to not even see the hole at that age is crazy. That kind of behavior is why a lot of people think we shouldn't help others.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday May 10 2019, @01:26PM (1 child)
I forget our mortgage rate, it was a 2013 deal somewhere around 2.75%. At that rate, it's a strategic leveraging - we're getting higher returns on our investments, so pay that debt as slowly as possible, and home mortgages have been our only debt incurred since ~1999, my last car loan was in 1992 and that was just leveraging to buy a first home (against the rules, but there are ways....)
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Farkus888 on Friday May 10 2019, @08:03PM
I like the leveraging idea with the mortgage. I will definitely consider it when I get to that point. I'll probably clear PMI then slow down.
(Score: 2) by NewNic on Tuesday May 07 2019, @08:38PM (1 child)
I am sure it is simple, for those people who don't suffer from Sleep Apnoea.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:07PM
A CPAP / APAP machine may be able to help.
Some years ago, my experience and the same experience related by a friend: once on the machine I started dreaming again. I couldn't remember any recent dreams before the machine.
What doesn't kill me makes me weaker for next time.
(Score: 5, Informative) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:51PM (18 children)
Your friend gives you standard-issue bullshit meaningless alt-health drivel like that, and you think she's "one of the good ones".
Let me tell you about toxins. Toxins are substances characterized one of two things.
One is "acute" toxicity, where there are immediate, localized, and directly attributable effects such as cell-death, mutational load, or pain. Effects particular to the substance in question. Easily recognized examples are botulism toxin, which causes cell death, bee venom causing acute pain, cell disruption, often dangerous immune response, poison ivy oils causing rashes.
The other is "chronic" toxicity, that your friend is pretending to know about. Chronic toxicity is characterized, more than anything, by a dose response curve over time. Again, particular the the toxic substance in question. Long-term lead exposure in children is characterized by degraded mental development. In proportion to the amount of lead in their environment. Ash causes increased risk of lung cancer in direct proportion to the amount of smoking done over a lifetime. These are "toxic" substances.
What your friend describes, however, doesn't attribute to any particular substance, in any particular amount, vaguely defined health effects. Your friend is completely and totally full of shit
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:26PM (6 children)
This post will probably confuse more than help. It seems to imply there is no dose response curve in the case of acute toxins.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:13PM (5 children)
I thought that was a misunderstanding that was unlikely to happen. People going "Oh it doesn't matter how many bees sting me, it's exactly the same" is a pretty silly conclusion almost anyone would see for themselves.
But for chronic toxicity, particular toxin to particular effect, with a particular rate of moderation being essential is something OP's friend intentionally obfuscates in order to sell holistic cleanses or some shit.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:07PM (3 children)
Bees & wasps, so many times, one sting is enough to cause a big problem -- Anafalactic Shock. And the Penicillin can do that too, unfortunately.
Other things, too much at once is very bad. You're so right about that. You know, autism has become an epidemic. 25 years ago, 35 years ago, you look at the statistics, not even close. It has gotten totally out of control. I am TOTALLY in favor of vaccines. But I want smaller doses over a longer period of time. Same exact amount, but you take this little beautiful baby, and you pump. I mean, it looks just like it's meant for a horse, not for a child, and we've had so many instances, people that work for me.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:30PM (2 children)
Anaphylactic?
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:01PM (1 child)
I was going with some sort of shock associated with Aflac.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:19PM
I see.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:55PM
It is just your total lack of mention of dose response in the acute case along with extreme overemphasis of it in the second case makes it seem like you are using that to discriminate between them. It is just as important for both.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:31PM (10 children)
There's also more to toxin load than simple mass of toxin onboard. For example: mercury in the body in non-reactive form, hidden away in non-circulating pockets is, by definition, harmless. The problem is, there's no such thing as completely non-reactive form for mercury, nor are there pockets within the human body where such compounds can dwell indefinitely without circulating somewhat - but, there are degrees of this, quite a broad range in fact.
Unfortunately, for victims of poorly conceived and executed chelation therapy, they can have their "total mercury load" reduced by large, measurable amounts through chelation treatments which, unfortunately, transform relatively harmless deposits of relatively non-reactive mercury (same applies for many other toxins, particularly elemental / heavy metals), into more reactive, circulating form where much of it leaves the body "through normal channels" but, a significant quantity of it goes on to cause accelerated neurological and other damage in a matter of days - damage that undisturbed toxins might have taken decades to inflict.
Fun "toxin" fact: LSD flashbacks can happen when fatty tissues are mobilized because LSD molecules "hide" in fat, sometimes for decades. Go on a diet, take a trip from back in time.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:44PM (5 children)
Chelation is pretty rare these days and only used for very severe metals poisoning.
OSHA talks about it in their lead standard. [osha.gov]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:22PM (4 children)
Depends on your social circles... they messed up quite a few kids with it 15-20 years ago, but some bad ideas never seem to die.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:39PM (3 children)
Whelp, I roll with the science-based occupational health and safety posse, then!
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday May 07 2019, @08:04PM (2 children)
Boring! and also quite unhelpful for many conditions.
I have done science-based medical research for work. It's quite depressing how many safe and effective therapies for serious - even life threatening - conditions exist, are known, but will not be developed into clinically available treatments or be positively endorsed by doctors, even the doctors who developed them, due to the system we have in place.
Chelation is not among these safe nor effective treatments for the many conditions that are anecdotally attributed to long-term low-level heavy metal poisoning. But, from the perspective of the caregivers, they have essentially nothing to lose, so...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by Acabatag on Tuesday May 07 2019, @11:59PM (1 child)
Medical device companies always ask early in the idea phase "what is the reimbursement model."
I am certain drug companies ask that question as well.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday May 08 2019, @02:01AM
Even among researchers who don't ask about the reimbursement model, the people who fund their research do...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:51PM (3 children)
No, this has never happened.
People may have intense emotional experiences and then have a flashback for that reason, but it is not re-release of LSD from a tissue reservoir years (or even days) later. I'd love to know what incompetent and/or malicious government employee came up with that one.
(Score: 3, Informative) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:26PM (2 children)
I do appreciate the bare assertion of their claim against the bare assertion of your rejection of their claim.
Only somehow, in rejecting their extraordinary claim you managed to make your rejection more extraordinary "no this has never happened". Clinicians have documented enough claims of it happening [popsci.com] that "it has never happened" is a spurious assertion. That the events that have been recorded are unrelated to prior drug use, or unrelated to the fat solubility of lysergic acids, those are arguments you could make, and there's no compelling evidence you're wrong.
But "This has never happened" is grossly inaccurate.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:43PM
I didn't say flashbacks are a myth. I said lsd is not stored in some tissue reservoir and then released years later to cause a flashback. This has never happened.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 08 2019, @12:36AM
Lsd is not a stable molecule it does not stays intact that long : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide#Reactivity_and_degradation [wikipedia.org]
Also it is water-soluble so it will not accumulate in fat
(Score: 3, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:46PM (7 children)
Well that's good!
It sucks to have chronic fatigue syndrome when you don't even have chronic fatigue syndrome.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:33PM (6 children)
There are "ailments" that have proven to be impossible to diagnose, and if you give the same patient to 6 different "experts" you'll get no consistent predictive ability from the diagnostic criteria.
This is astoundingly common in alternative-medicine. A famous example is determining "acid in the blood" by looking at whether "red blood cells stack". Skeptics drew several samples from the same patient, hand it to the same doctor, claiming it's a sample of several patients, and got several different diagnoses.
Not being like that is a step up from what CFS had been, medically speaking.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:45PM (5 children)
That is the same with normal medicine... go to two different doctors/dentists and get totally different treatment plans.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:01PM (3 children)
Non-adherence to published standard of care is a real problem, and is probably one of the biggest causes of preventable negative outcomes, but being given the same test on the same subject getting different diagnostic results is exceedingly rare.
If I shipped your blood from the same sampling to two different medical labs(much less the same lab) and got 2 substantively different results for, say, T-Cell counts, that'd be grounds for potentially closing a lab.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @10:04PM (2 children)
I avoid the doctor, but I would hope that is what is already always done. In fact, if you need to make a decision based on the result you should use three to see if two are closer than the other. This is standard engineering tech:
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/61144/why-is-not-every-airplane-equipped-with-3-angle-of-attack-sensors [stackexchange.com]
If we used non-redundant airplane sensors, it would probably kill fewer people than using non-redundant blood tests.
Like that forensic lady who sent 20k people to jail based on false test results could have never done that if medical personnel followed guidelines that are standard in other "hard" science/engineering fields: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/epic-drug-lab-scandal-results-more-20-000-convictions-dropped-n747891 [nbcnews.com]
People give these medical people such undeserved slack for no reason.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:30AM (1 child)
Those weren't medical tests.
Those were "tests" meant to generate convictions in a guilty-until-proven-innocent adversarial "justice" system in a war on (some) drugs that's mostly meant to provide a legal pretext for locking up dark skinned people.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:49AM
How many side effects from a bad drug prescription are as bad as being sent to prison for years?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 08 2019, @08:49AM
Oh, shit! You had to bring dentists into it, didn't you! You know what is going to happen now? Well, do you, punk?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:50PM
Did you play football in HS or College? You may have CTE just like the pro players
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/05/brain-volume-could-reveal-signs-cte-living/588838/ [theatlantic.com]
(Score: 2) by stormwyrm on Friday May 10 2019, @01:13PM
A "general toxicity problem"? Yeah, so what are these "toxins" she speaks of? A lot of "alternative medicine" interventions are based on the idea that some vague, unnamed "toxins" are poisoning you and the only way to fix it is to "detoxify". These "detoxification" regimens tend to range from the relatively (but not entirely) benign such as "juice cleanses", to the weird and somewhat risky such as coffee enemas, to the downright dangerous like chelation therapy. This concept of unspecified "toxins" and the process of "detoxification" to clean them out is basically much like the concepts of "sin" and ritual purification [respectfulinsolence.com] in religions. Orac puts it very well:
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate.