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posted by mrpg on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:03AM   Printer-friendly
from the cows-and-poultry-agree dept.

[...] Agricultural data from 38,700 farms plus details of processing and retailing in 119 countries show wide differences in environmental impacts — from greenhouse gas emissions to water used — even between producers of the same product, says environmental scientist Joseph Poore of the University of Oxford. The amount of climate-warming gases released in the making of a pint of beer, for example, can more than double under high-impact production scenarios. For dairy and beef cattle combined, high-impact providers released about 12 times as many greenhouse gases as low-impact producers, Poore and colleague Thomas Nemecek report in the June 1 Science.

[...] The greatest changes in the effect of a person’s diet on the planet, however, would still come from choosing certain kinds of food over others. On average, producing 100 grams of protein from beef leads to the release of 50 kilograms of greenhouse gas emissions, which the researchers calculated as a carbon-dioxide equivalent. By comparison, 100 grams of protein from cheese releases 11 kg in production, from poultry 5.7 kg and from tofu 2 kg.

[...] Producing food overall accounts for 26 percent of global climate-warming emissions, and takes up about 43 percent of the land that’s not desert or covered in ice, the researchers found. Out of the total carbon footprint from food, 57 percent comes from field agriculture, livestock and farmed fish. Clearing land for agriculture accounts for 24 percent and transporting food accounts for another 6 percent.


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by leftover on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:14AM (30 children)

    by leftover (2448) on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:14AM (#689638)

    You switch your family to an all-plant diet for a generation or two. Measure your grandchildren's physical and mental development. Then we can talk.

    --
    Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:20AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:20AM (#689641)

      The Truth About Soy Boys
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTSvLKY7HEk [youtube.com]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:57AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:57AM (#689655)

        The Truth About Buzzwords.

        I don't see why it matters as long as you're getting the right amount of calories, nutrients, minerals, and so on. And you don't need to go near soy, even if you're a vegetarian or a vegan.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:25AM (14 children)

      by Thexalon (636) on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:25AM (#689661)

      Anecdotal evidence, but:

      I'm a second-generation vegetarian. Both my sister and I were solidly near the top in mental abilities by available objective measures. Physically, I'm reasonably healthy, she's doing triathlons for fun. So I'm not convinced that a vegetarian diet = unhealthy or underdeveloped.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:47AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:47AM (#689693)

        You might be smart. If you don't short yourself on nutrients, you have a chance for this.

        Mental development is more than just being capable of intellectual pursuits. For example, with maturity comes a change in priorities. Additional changes happen as people settle down and raise families.

        From numerous things you've posted on SoylenNews, we see that you retain some immature viewpoints past childhood. You fit the soyboy stereotype pretty well in fact. You're a leftist; that is an immature viewpoint.

        Sadly, it isn't easy to run a proper controlled experiment on you. We'd have to make a few hundred clones of you, then raise them on different diets.

        It would be even better if we could run the experiment with the clones born in the same time and place as you, but that requires time travel and extra universes. Maybe the clones fed more meat would end up very different than you are today: They'd support UKIP, BNP, Trump, LePen, or similar. They'd each own 42 guns. They'd have more money. They'd have beautiful stay-at-home wives and huge families.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:31PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:31PM (#689829)

          that requires time travel and extra universes.

          String theory can provide this.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by boltronics on Thursday June 07 2018, @03:08AM (11 children)

        by boltronics (580) on Thursday June 07 2018, @03:08AM (#689698) Homepage Journal

        I'm 36. Been vegan for 5-6 years, and vegetarian for many years before that - easily the majority of my adult life. I'm a sysadmin as my day job. Strava says I ran a total of 208km last month, and 306km during April (I recently purchased a Garmin watch to start tracking). I've also been riding to and from work for years. I deliberately don't own a car so I force myself to ride my bike more often.

        You don't need to eat meat products to be healthy. It's a myth. What you do need is a well balanced diet and exercise. I'm typing this on my lunch break eating a bowl of carrots, bean shoots, capsicum, bok choy, corn, broccoli and some mashed up veggie burger. For breakfast I ate plenty of Weet-Bix with muesli and soy milk. I also eat a lot of nuts, seeds and fruit every day.

        I take vitamin tablets just to be safe, but I'm pretty sure that's just overkill. Feeling great, aside from currently being sore from over-training!

        --
        It's GNU/Linux dammit!
        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:08AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:08AM (#689721)

          Question: is it the bike riding or the vegan diet that made you into a whiney bitch?

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:39AM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:39AM (#689775)

          You don't need to eat meat products to be healthy.

          But you've eaten meat during your development period, mate, isn't it so?

          • (Score: 3, Touché) by boltronics on Thursday June 07 2018, @11:00AM (6 children)

            by boltronics (580) on Thursday June 07 2018, @11:00AM (#689807) Homepage Journal

            Have you not reached maturity?

            --
            It's GNU/Linux dammit!
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @12:15AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @12:15AM (#690125)

              I don't like assertions that are supposed to be true no matter the circumstances, even more when they are supported by a single anecdote.
              I would have said nothing if your claim sounded like

              At my age, I don't need to eat meat products to be healthy.

              Notice any shift in meaning?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @01:05AM (4 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @01:05AM (#690142)

              My mother, over 75 yo, an observant orthodox christian, used to fast until recently on Wed and Fri - nothing of animal origin.
              This needed to stop, though - her body started to eat its own muscles - shown by the physiological and pathology analyses (ketonic compounds through the roof in her blood with visible muscles atrophy).

              I guess you'll see how your diet goes for you in 40+ years time.

              • (Score: 2) by boltronics on Friday June 08 2018, @01:48AM (3 children)

                by boltronics (580) on Friday June 08 2018, @01:48AM (#690152) Homepage Journal

                When you say "fasting", is that all she cut out? Did she cut out other food that normally goes with meat too? What did she replace that with?

                I can tell you that I eat a *lot*. I'd never use the word "fasting" to describe my diet because that (to me anyway) implies just skipping some or all food, as opposed to replacing it with alternatives.

                --
                It's GNU/Linux dammit!
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @02:48AM (2 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @02:48AM (#690174)

                  When you say "fasting", is that all she cut out?

                  The rules of fast on Wed and Fri in christian orthodoxy [abbamoses.com]

                  Unless a fast-free period has been declared, Orthodox Christians are to keep a strict fast every Wednesday and Friday. The following foods are avoided:
                  Meat, including poultry, and any meat products such as lard and meat broth.
                  Fish (meaning fish with backbones; shellfish are permitted).
                  Eggs and dairy products (milk, butter, cheese, etc.)
                  Olive oil. A literal interpretation of the rule forbids only olive oil. Especially where olive oil is not a major part of the diet, the rule is sometimes taken to include all vegetable oils, as well as oil products such as margarine.
                  Wine and other alcoholic drink. In the Slavic tradition, beer is often permitted on fast days.

                  ---

                  Did she cut out other food that normally goes with meat too? What did she replace that with?

                  Unfortunately, she did - restricted herself on two meals on those days (skipping breakfast).

                  • (Score: 2) by boltronics on Friday June 08 2018, @03:54AM (1 child)

                    by boltronics (580) on Friday June 08 2018, @03:54AM (#690191) Homepage Journal

                    Understood. Sorry, I wasn't aware.

                    I figure vegans probably need to eat a lot more food than normal to keep up their health as a general rule, but I'm no health expert.

                    I used to skip breakfast for years (but would easily make up for it in other meals). These days though, with all the running I've been doing, I have a strong craving for food at breakfast time.

                    --
                    It's GNU/Linux dammit!
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @04:12AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @04:12AM (#690193)

                      Sorry, I wasn't aware.

                      No apologies needed.
                      Just keep in mind "an anecdote doesn't a dataset make" next time you are tempted by "You don't need to eat meat products to be healthy." kind of generalizations.

        • (Score: 2) by mrpg on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:16PM (1 child)

          by mrpg (5708) <{mrpg} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:16PM (#689902) Homepage

          Study Finds No Benefit to Taking Multivitamins and Some Other Supplements
          https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=18/05/30/0153253 [soylentnews.org]

          • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:19PM

            by Thexalon (636) on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:19PM (#690029)

            Vegetarians are sometimes advised to take iron supplements, because meat is an important source of iron. It's entirely possibly to get enough iron via a vegetarian diet, but you have to pay some attention or risk getting anemia.

            --
            The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 2) by pdfernhout on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:27AM (1 child)

      by pdfernhout (5984) on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:27AM (#689662) Homepage

      https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Foods-Diet-Lifesaving-Longevity/dp/1478944919 [amazon.com]
      "THE WHOLE FOODS DIET simplifies the huge body of science, research, and advice that is available today and reveals the undeniable consensus: a whole foods, plant-based diet is the optimum diet for health and longevity. "

      Or, also Dr. Joel Fuhrman's Eat To Live -- as a Nutritarian:
      https://www.drfuhrman.com/get-started [drfuhrman.com]

      You don't have to be an extreme vegan. Keep high-quality animal protein to less than 10% of your calories. That's what the longest lived peopel studied generally do in "Blue Zones". One can quibble about the exact percentage, given even Gorillas eat animal protein from termites and such and Deer have been known to snack on baby birds in nests. But, it is a far lower percentage than most people on a Standard American Diet (SAD).

      Of course, there are other aspects of health than nutrition...

      --
      The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @09:04AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @09:04AM (#689784)

        Yeah I thought of something like that too. It is not a eat meat or not eat meat political/ethical divide, there is a continuous spectrum there.
        Ample plant based food with only as much meat as to provide the flavors is more satisfying for the palate and the belly than a meat-heavy meal.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by qzm on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:28AM (9 children)

      by qzm (3260) on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:28AM (#689727)

      It appears to be the usual 'i know the answer, lets make figures to prove it!' kinds of research.

      For example they do not allow for the fact that grasslands, and the cattle that feed on them, are a rather significant carbon sink.
      They also do not appear to adjust for the detrimental effects of crop fertiliser overuse (which is also a huge factor, must more present in cropping than cattle farming).
      They allow for global warming effects of cattle 'emmissions' (of the gaseous kind) as a huge impact, but have NO allowance for rotting cropping leftovers, which produce EXACTLY THE SAME GAS.

      In other words it appears to be a bunch of cherry picked numbers to support someones personal worldview.
      What a surprise.
      Pity the days of investigative journalism, where actual questions may have been asked, are long LONG gone.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @06:58AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @06:58AM (#689747)

        75 million American bison were killed (Seton 1929) in order to be replaced by 94.4 million cows (https://www.quora.com/How-many-cows-are-there-in-the-US).

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:04AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:04AM (#689751)

        Carl Popper, regarded as the 20th century's greatest philosopher of science, called this pseudo science.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by tfried on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:33AM

        by tfried (5534) on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:33AM (#689773)

        For example they do not allow for the fact that grasslands, and the cattle that feed on them, are a rather significant carbon sink.

        Well, climate gas emissions are a global problem, and when looking at meat production at a global scale, you will get to realize that most meat-eating countries do not have anything remotely close to the Great Plains. And thus, while the US can cover most of its enormous meat consumption from ok-ish sources, the global reality is that the current levels of meat consumption require huge amounts of stock feeding, combining the negative effects of growing crops and growing meat.

        If the US were to reduce meat consumption, it could hugely expand its net meat exports, replacing more costly and more problematic stock feeding elsewhere.

        I have a certain (small) level of understanding for USians who will equate domestic meat production and domestic meat consumption, and conclude that US meat consumption is ok, then, while only meat consumption in other parts of the world is the problem. But if you do care about global climate emissions then you will easily see the flaws in this reasoning - and if you do not care about global climate gas emissions, then please don't pretend you do.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by c0lo on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:52AM (4 children)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:52AM (#689779) Journal

        They allow for global warming effects of cattle 'emmissions' (of the gaseous kind) as a huge impact, but have NO allowance for rotting cropping leftovers, which produce EXACTLY THE SAME GAS.

        Actually no, it won't produce exactly the same gas. Methane is produced by anaerobic fermentation ( in the ruminants' guts), the grass let 'on itself' to degrade will produce mainly carbon dioxide by aerobic processes (with fungi/moulds as the main cause of cellulose degradation).
        Which means a good amount of carbon sequestered by grassland will be stored into the soil even if the majority of it will be released as carbon dioxide back into the atmosphere.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @09:42AM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @09:42AM (#689790)

          Plant matter ferments in cow guts, cow farts methane.
          Plant matter ferments in human guts, human farts methane.
          Let's all turn vegetarians and outstrip the cattle in fart production, yessss!

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Thursday June 07 2018, @11:07AM (2 children)

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 07 2018, @11:07AM (#689808) Journal

            Except that humans produce much less methane, due to more varied sources of food.

            Cows need to use a lot of bacteria to break down the cellulose, because the cows won't get too much of simple sugars and lipids and proteins from other sources.
            Look, there's very little fat in the grass they eat - and yet the more marbled the beef meat, the better the taste/price. Ever wondered where that fat comes from? (a good part of it comes from the phospholipidic membranes of the bacteria in cows guts).

            Humans eat fruit and cereals/tubers and nuts and pulses etc, something you won't find in ruminant's diet. Much less a need for anaerobic bacteria to break down cellulose - you, as a human, will actually shit that cellulose entirely (the nutritionists use to call it "dietary fibers") - thus much less methane.

            Same goes for poultry and pork.

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:21PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:21PM (#689824)

              Humans eat fruit and cereals/tubers and nuts and pulses etc, something you won't find in ruminant's diet.

              Bacteria don't care much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence#Cause [wikipedia.org]

              you, as a human, will actually shit that cellulose entirely

              BZZT wrong. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1432575/ [nih.gov]

              • (Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Thursday June 07 2018, @11:35PM

                by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 07 2018, @11:35PM (#690117) Journal

                Humans eliminate methane through farts:
                Typical composition of human fart [fartshare.com]

                The typical chemical makeup of farts is 60% Nitrogen, 20% Hydrogen, 10% Carbon Dioxide, 5–10% Methane and 5% Oxygen.

                Nitrogen and oxygen will come mainly from aerophagia (air swallowed), the rest is decomposition of organic matter from food.
                And the typical volume a human farts in a day? a bit over half a litter/day [scientopia.org] - with 20%, greenhouse gases emission = 0.5 x .2 = 0.1 litre/day

                Ruminants eliminate methane mainly on burps (primary fermentation in rumen). How much methane? Some estimates: [gizmodo.com.au]

                It's estimated, through whichever orifice, that each individual cow lets out between thirty and fifty gallons of methane per day.

                Well, that between 120 to 190L/day of methane/day. Something tells me that the cows and human digestive systems are very different in regards with the amount of greenhouse gasses they produce, no matter how much you claim that the bacteria don't care.

                ---

                For the bottom line, we need the populations: the humans ,- about 7.5B; the cows about 1B. I trust you can do the math from here.

                --
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by Pav on Thursday June 07 2018, @10:09PM

        by Pav (114) on Thursday June 07 2018, @10:09PM (#690087)

        Not to mention nitrogen fixing bacteria [sciencedaily.com] (produced by the most important vegetarian protein sources) produce methane.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @10:00AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @10:00AM (#689793)

      You switch your family to an all-plant diet for a generation or two.

      This seems like a cop out given that

      Producing food overall accounts for 26 percent of global climate-warming emissions,

      This 26% figure can be reduced greatly if only environmentalists would stop eating.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:15AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:15AM (#689640)

    One can make the comparison look bad by feeding the cattle beer and giving them massages.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/cornwall/6345289.stm [bbc.co.uk]

    On the other hand, cattle can graze on irregular rocky slopes that are unfit for crop harvesting.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:11AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:11AM (#689755)

      cattle can graze on irregular rocky slopes that are unfit for crop harvesting.
      Not in the imagination of our vegan masters.

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by PinkyGigglebrain on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:35AM (4 children)

    by PinkyGigglebrain (4458) on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:35AM (#689647)

    Can anyone name any omnivorous species of mammal that became herbivorous and has not died out or is currently on the brink of doing so?

    The only animals I've ever heard of, from a few species of early hominids to the modern Giant Pandas, that started off as omnivorous and become herbivores all have one thing in common with each other; they are all extinct or currently on the verge of extinction.

    Not saying Humans might be able to figure out how to go full veterinarian and continue to thrive but until I see some proof I'll stick with eating a mixed diet of meat, fish, vegetables and fruits that my metabolism is adapted to.

    I tried being a vegetarian awhile back. It didn't work out for me so I'll stick with keeping animal derived protein sources on my menu for now.

    --
    "Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
    • (Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:33AM (1 child)

      by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:33AM (#689688) Journal

      Vegetarians (no modifier) can eat eggs and drink milk.

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:12AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:12AM (#689723)

        Plus kebab meat only if your drunk tho.

    • (Score: 1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:56AM

      by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:56AM (#689695) Homepage Journal

      Believe me, I love a juicy, delicious cheeseburger or a well-done steak as much as the next guy. Possibly more. But I visited China, otherwise known as the home of soy. And the home of tofu. Which they've been eating for THOUSANDS of years. Not a lot of meat! But A LOT of people. Tremendous crowds, like you've never seen in your entire life. And I hear the men have very small penises. Tiny penises, but they work very well!!!!

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 07 2018, @05:36PM

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday June 07 2018, @05:36PM (#689972) Journal

      Can anyone name any omnivorous species of mammal that became herbivorous and has not died out or is currently on the brink of doing so?

      375 million humans. [expo2015.org] That's a lot of not-dying going on!

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:52AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:52AM (#689652)

    The moment you can make taste like a sirloin...

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by goodie on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:59AM (3 children)

    by goodie (1877) on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:59AM (#689657) Journal

    Is that they disregard the fact that we are supposed to eat meat. As far as I am concerned though, we eat *too much* of it. and there are alternatives that could helps us reduce our meat intake greatly (I mean beef as well as others...). But giving up on meat altogether would, in my opinion, be an issue and lead to other problems (deficiencies because people are not informed etc.).

    I am no tree hugger but the waste of life that happens when you throw away or discard uneaten portions of meat bothers me a lot too. If something was raised, fed, cared for (to some extent), slaughtered, prepared, sold, cooked etc. and ends up not being eaten, then it's a huge waste. Whenever I read these stories I think about the meat portions in North American restaurants: "for an extra $3 you can double the size of the steak!". Even if you don't end up wasting it and take the leftovers home, you still end up eating too much meat.

    Diversity and moderation would, in my opinion, work much better than messages about switching diets entirely. Then you can buy good meat that is actually tasty and enjoy it fully.

    Just my two cents...

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by tfried on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:07AM (2 children)

      by tfried (5534) on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:07AM (#689754)

      Diversity and moderation would, in my opinion, work much better than messages about switching diets entirely.

      Absolutely. However, what baffles me most, is that each and every message of the type "we should reduce meat consumption, overall" is perceived as "everybody shall stop eating meat, entirely", invariably. Granted, the article mentions "switching", rather than "shifting" to a plant-based diet, so that may not be an ideal choice of words. Also granted, there is no shortage of very vocal activists who will advocate just that. But I definitely cannot shake the feeling that a lot of people apply an all-or-nothing reading to any message about the downsides of meat consumption, actively. It's just so convenient: Stretch the message so much that it is easy to refute, then conclude that it is obviously wrong from the start. No need to even think about your personal contribution, then.

      • (Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:27PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:27PM (#689828) Journal
        The answer is that propaganda has diminishing returns in large quantities. The population eventually devolves into a population of people who have embraced or rejected the propaganda, and thus, can't be changed further.
      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 07 2018, @05:19PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday June 07 2018, @05:19PM (#689962) Journal

        It's just so convenient: Stretch the message so much that it is easy to refute, then conclude that it is obviously wrong from the start. No need to even think about your personal contribution, then.

        AKA the slippery slope fallacy. [softschools.com]

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:51AM (7 children)

    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:51AM (#689676) Homepage Journal

    Vitamin B12 - Methylcobalamine - is required to make red blood cells and is not found in plants. Not Even A Little Bit.

    My doc told me that a B12 deficiency can cause brain damage. The guy who discovered it won the Medicine Nobel for curing Pernicious Anemia, a formerly fatal disease that killed young boys. All they need to live to ripe old ages is regular B12 injections.

    But the good news is that B12 is found in fungus. Try some brewer's yeast on your fried tofu for supper tonight; brewers yeast tastes really, really good.

    For reasons that surely make no sense, I never see B12 listed on Nutrition Facts labels.

    --
    Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by corey on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:35AM (2 children)

      by corey (2202) on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:35AM (#689689)

      Wrong. Quick look on our friend Wiki reveals B12 is found in fermented foods and seaweed, algae etc.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12 [wikipedia.org]

      • (Score: 2) by qzm on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:30AM

        by qzm (3260) on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:30AM (#689728)

        Probably because none of those are actually plants?

      • (Score: 2) by Taibhsear on Thursday June 07 2018, @03:15PM

        by Taibhsear (1464) on Thursday June 07 2018, @03:15PM (#689880)

        The b12 in the fermented foods is from the microorganisms doing the fermenting, not the plants.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by takyon on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:38AM

      by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:38AM (#689691) Journal

      But the good news is that B12 is found in fungus. Try some brewer's yeast on your fried tofu for supper tonight; brewers yeast tastes really, really good.

      https://www.livestrong.com/article/453954-brewers-yeast-vitamin-b12/ [livestrong.com]

      Health stores offer brewer's yeast as a dietary supplement rich in B vitamins, even though only fortified brewer's yeast has vitamin B12.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutritional_yeast [wikipedia.org]

      It is a significant source of some B-complex vitamins, and contains trace amounts of several other vitamins and minerals. Sometimes nutritional yeast is fortified with vitamin B12.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12 [wikipedia.org]

      The only organisms to produce vitamin B12 are certain bacteria, and archaea. Some of these bacteria are found in the soil around the grasses that ruminants eat; they are taken into the animal, proliferate, form part of their gut flora, and continue to produce vitamin B12.

      Most people in developed countries obtain enough vitamin B12 from consuming animal products including meat, milk, eggs, and fish.[5] Other staple foods are fortified by having the vitamin added to them. Vitamin B12 supplements are available in single agent or multivitamin tablets; and pharmaceutical preparations may be given by intramuscular injection.

      [...] Vitamin B12 is produced industrially via bacterial fermentation.

      How many times do I have to say it?

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:40AM (1 child)

      by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:40AM (#689692) Homepage Journal

      I'm not a cook. But I eat a lot so I know a lot about food. And I'll tell you, yeast is not a mushroom.

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:13AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:13AM (#689756)

        yeast is not a mushroom.

        After a few shrooms, (or maybe quite a lot) you might be willing to revise your opinion!

    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:57AM

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:57AM (#689783) Journal

      Try some brewer's yeast on your fried tofu for supper tonight; brewers yeast tastes really, really good.

      Yucks! Why do that when I can use Vegemite?
      It would be like eating snails raw instead of preparing them first (grin)

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
  • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:11AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:11AM (#689722)

    If there is a problem, why should I change my lifestyle when I can just kill some soyboys and absorb their share of whatever fancy made up pollution allotments you can come up with?

  • (Score: 2) by Aiwendil on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:00AM (3 children)

    by Aiwendil (531) on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:00AM (#689765) Journal

    Can anyone tell me what an all-plant diet would look like? Now I mean one that can sustained for at least a year: plants (and water) only. When failing that add minerals as well. and when failing that add bacteria and/or fungi as well.

    I'm mainly curious about just what beyond plants only that is needed as bare minimum.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Freeman on Thursday June 07 2018, @06:47PM (2 children)

      by Freeman (732) on Thursday June 07 2018, @06:47PM (#690007) Journal

      Generally you can get all you need from a plant-based diet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forks_Over_Knives [wikipedia.org]

      Consuming refined sugar and / or bleached white flour is arguably worse than having a steak. Certainly worse than having fish like Salmon. Jesus almost certainly ate meat, specifically Lamb and Fish. The bible says that your body is the temple of God, so you should be taking care of it. So, I have a hard time believing that you can't live healthy while eating meat. Otherwise, why would Jesus have done it? Though, you really should avoid the scavengers such as Pig, Shrimp, etc.

      The best advice is to eat whole foods that you have cooked, restrict your sugar intake, and to use Whole Wheat Flour. I usually buy a bag of whole wheat and white and mix them (I'm cheap and my wife doesn't like plain whole wheat).

      --
      Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
      • (Score: 2) by Aiwendil on Friday June 08 2018, @08:25AM (1 child)

        by Aiwendil (531) on Friday June 08 2018, @08:25AM (#690240) Journal

        How do you get the B12 by sticking to plants alone? No plants synthesize that.

        Personally I have a diet centered around rice and poulty so most vegetarians already puts a heavier load on the planet than I do.

        No wonder Jesus ate lamb and fish, both of those are kosher and most jews back then (and currently) eat it.
        Which part of the bible says that the body is the temple of God?

        I do eat meat, heck, the only kind of meat I really doesn't eat is shrimp, crab, mussles/scallops and fish and that is due to taste. I even have a fondness for dried reindeer as a snack.
        Actually the entire "avoid scavangers" is a bit iffy since most of our livestock are opportunistic eaters (also - good look finding a bird that turns down a tasty cricket if given half a chance).

        My refined sugar intake is at a hefty 6 tablespoons per week, and that mainly is due my enjoying a touch of syrup in my bread.
        And I avoid whole wheat due to an intestinal disorder which makes anything with too much fibre being somewhat of a health hazard (how I miss rye-breads and dates (Phoenix dactylifera)).

        I also should point out that I live in sweden - which means that bleached floor is a speciality item (most of us has never seen bleached floor with our own eyes, and we consider self-rising flour to be weird), our sugar comes from sugar beets, we often cook our food from scratch, and the vast majority of oil we use is rapeseed (or "canola" for those unable to recognize turnips) with the following two most common being sunflower and olive.

        Flourmixes are seriously underrated, the only common one around here is the 40% rye and 60% wheat, but overall making your own flour-mixes is highly useful. If cooking do add a bit of cornstarch (or rice starch) to any roux (when makes sauces) for an even thicker texture.

        If you have an hour to kill to look up Lifey Missions on youtube when they are telling their fellow missionaries about sweden when viewed from a US point of view, it is hilarious from our point of view and shocking from the US conservative point of view (after you've watched it feel free to poke me if you want a recipie for "kladdkaka")

        And as I stated in my initial post, I mainly was curious about what the bare mimum was in terms of branching out from an all-plant (for an overall the minimum is butter and potatoes and magnesium supplements)

        • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Friday June 08 2018, @04:49PM

          by Freeman (732) on Friday June 08 2018, @04:49PM (#690392) Journal

          1st Corinthians 6:19-20 "19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body [g]and in your spirit, which are God’s." It's mainly talking about immoral behavior, but there are various places in the Bible that recommend a healthy lifestyle. Including eating good food.

          I may take a look at the YouTube video. My life is crazy though, so no guarantees I'll remember it. Even though, I'll send myself an e-mail about it.

          --
          Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:36PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:36PM (#689831)

    Conveniently, the human body is designed to live off refined flour derived from the US staple crops (corn and wheat), that has been enriched and fortified with everything we need to survive. These are also ideal for the environment.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:31PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:31PM (#689844)

    What about an all meat diet? It looks like there are no negative health effects, but you lose weight, lower your blood pressure, stop farting, and even your shit stops stinking:

    Two normal men volunteered to live solely on meat for one year, which gave us an unusual opportunity of studying the effects of this diet. The term “meat,” as used by us, included both the lean and the fat portions of animals.
    [...]
    The stools were smaller than usual, well formed, and had an inoffensive, slightly pungent odor. No flatus was noted.
    [...]
    At the end of the year, the subjects were mentally alert, physically active, and showed no specific physical changes in any system of the body.
    [...]
    During the 1st week, all three men lost weight, due to a shift in the water content of the body while adjusting itself to the low carbohydrate diet. Thereafter, their weights remained practically constant.
    [...]
    In the prolonged test, the blood pressure of one man remained constant; the systolic pressure of the other decreased 20 mm. and the diastolic pressure remained uniform
    [...]
    Vitamin deficiencies did not appear
    [...]
    Urine examinations, determinations of the nitrogenous constituents of the blood, and kidney function tests revealed no evidence of kidney damage
    [...]
    In these trained subjects, the clinical observations and laboratory studies gave no evidence that any ill effects had occurred from the prolonged use of the exclusive meat diet

    PROLONGED MEAT DIETS WITH A STUDY OF KIDNEY FUNCTION AND KETOSIS. 1930. McClellan and Du Bois.
    http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full [jbc.org]

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:57PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:57PM (#689853)
    I don't need to change my diet - humans need to stop overpopulating the planet.
    • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday June 07 2018, @06:31PM (1 child)

      by Freeman (732) on Thursday June 07 2018, @06:31PM (#689998) Journal

      The areas where "stinted population growth" would make a difference are usually poor countries. Those countries don't have things like easy access to birth control and have different cultures that may be in conflict with the make less babies idea. Not to mention, they're likely hung up on things like fresh water, food, and shelter.

      --
      Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @09:44PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @09:44PM (#690079)
        My culture is in conflict with the eat less meat idea. Why should my culture change instead of theirs?
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