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Microsoft drops brain teasers from employee interview process
The interview process for Silicon Valley developer jobs has always had a reputation of being an arcane trial by fire exercise designed to weed down thousands of applicants to just the selected few antisocial geniuses.
Microsoft has however been making an effort to improve their hiring process to make it more useful and inclusive, and in a blog post John Montgomery, partner director of program management at Microsoft, explained the changes Microsoft has made to the process, which has meant cutting out such as questions as how many golf balls will fit into a 747.
Rethinking how we interview in Microsoft's Developer Division.
Also at Business Insider.
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Microsoft Drops Brain Teasers From Employee Interview Process
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The aim of science is to seek the simplest explanations of complex
facts. Seek simplicity and distrust it.
-- Whitehead.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @10:01AM (1 child)
Microsoft drops Tasers from employee interview process.
That would've been an awesome interview. If you are willing to tolerate being Tased, you'll put up with any kind of corporate bullshit and abuse. You're hired!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @10:32AM
That should be a standard test for any public service position
(Score: 3, Funny) by MostCynical on Monday December 31 2018, @10:16AM
FTFY
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @10:45AM (4 children)
(Score: 2) by Dr Spin on Monday December 31 2018, @01:47PM (3 children)
Surely the correct answer to this is "I Don't know" or "quite a lot!".
Minor variations in the seat anchorage mechanism alone would cause significant uncertainty.
"How hard do you force them in? or "with or without the crew?" " would be good answers too.
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday December 31 2018, @02:24PM (2 children)
Nope. The correct answer is "none outside whatever paying passengers bring on or check'". Golf balls are non-paying weight.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @01:39AM (1 child)
Nope. The correct answer is why the fuck is the user trying to fit golf balls into a 747?
I've been asked how can the end user do a number of bizarre shit and the correct path has always been to start by understanding why the user felt they needed to do such a strange thing. Once you understand that, you can help them do what they need done in a non-insane way.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 01 2019, @03:25AM
(Score: 4, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday December 31 2018, @11:10AM
That's probably a good idea. Microsoft's code quality was way higher than necessary, so they've got no reason to hire on merit.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @11:11AM (13 children)
Aren't IQ tests at job interviews illegal?
I wonder if there was actually any correlation with answers and job performance.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by MostCynical on Monday December 31 2018, @11:58AM
anyone who passed the interview process wrote Microsoft quality code.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 3, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Monday December 31 2018, @11:59AM
Weak and totally conflicted people like @TheRickWilson [twitter.com] shouldn't be allowed on television unless given an I.Q. test. Dumb as a rock! @CNN [twitter.com]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by looorg on Monday December 31 2018, @01:39PM (2 children)
Not sure, but I don't think that they are. There was a time a few years ago when "personality tests" seemed to be all the rage at the HR departments. But as far as I know that has largely gone away now. I guess this all just trickled down, same with the "brain teasers", when it was known that the big boys did them then everyone wanted to do them to cause they where all just as good as them in their own minds. There probably isn't a good correlation, there are just so many problems with them. Plus the HR-drones are probably not trained in using them so they are sort of just grading them by the book and they don't really have the knowledge to judge or interpret the results beyond what their manual tells them to. So it becomes quite broad stroke in that regard, also one could really just question the entire validity of the testing all together. What does it really say when they think that their job can only be performed by some special group of test-takers. That said it probably filled some kind of niche for them since they needed some kind of selection criteria that they didn't feel was discriminatory.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @06:12PM (1 child)
Look at it from someones PoV that is trying to hire someone.
Lets say you have 1 open position. You get 1000 resumes (yes it can be that bad). One thing you know at least 999 of those have to go away.
So you sort at first on keywords. That gets you down to a specific amount. OK lets say you have 30 now. Well at least 29 of those need to go away.
You call them up and screen them a bit and chat them up. OK now you are down to 5. At least 4 of those need to go away.
You bring all 5 in and chat them up. Quiz them a bit. Make sure they are not total tools. Maybe you put them through the same tests you had to go through.
Now pick one of those 5. Your boss wants that position filled yesterday. Oh and you need to pick 'the best one'. So you use testing along the way. Oh and if you pick a total tool you will get blamed for it.
That is how we ended up with this mess.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday December 31 2018, @10:55PM
"That is how we ended up with this mess."
Finally, someone admits Windows is a mess!
:)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Arik on Monday December 31 2018, @01:59PM (5 children)
No. Whatever gave you such an absurd idea?
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @02:40PM (4 children)
I guess it was from this case:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co. [wikipedia.org]
It seems that such a test is alright as long as it is relevant to employee job performance and not needlessly discriminatory based on sex or race.
Anyone with mod points should feel free to down-mod my original post as overrated.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by AthanasiusKircher on Monday December 31 2018, @03:20PM (2 children)
As you noted, the legal issue is mostly about whether a test is discriminatory.
Since the ruling you cited, we've had stuff like Jordan v. New London, where a person was denied admission to a police officer program because he scored TOO HIGH on an IQ test. IQ tests -- or tests that mimic them -- are widely used as screening for various jobs.
(Digression: Just remember that when you read about all the recent cases of police officers beating the crap out of minorities, etc. Many police departments have traditionally discriminated against smart people -- who are not a legally protected class. Not that smart people can't be corrupt or do bad stuff -- certainly they can -- but it's probably a little more likely that those of lesser intelligence who already are applying for a job to get others to "respect my authoritay!" could turn into mindless thugs who beat up or kill those they don't like. Frankly, it's likely going to get to crisis levels in a few years: many PDs are reporting shortages now -- the dumb thugs have realized a blue uniform is no longer license to beat the crap out of black people, so it takes out most of the fun for them. And the smart people who previously were volunteering and being rejected are now looking at a career sullied by bad press and thinking, "No way do I want to be anywhere near this crap!" so they won't apply either. I know the attitude around here is that all cops are evil, but they are a necessity for protection of law-abiding citizens... And shortages are going to get much worse.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:27PM
Thanks, I can't believe that I forgot about that case.
http://www.aele.org/apa/jordan-newlondon.html [aele.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London,_Connecticut#Jordan_v._New_London [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Monday December 31 2018, @11:16PM
Some of these are certainly better than others, but at a fundamental level they're all the same exact thing.
You take 100 questions and make a questionnaire, you score the tests and rank them from best to worst, and assign scores based on that. The people who score well are smarter than the ones who do poorly. Of course, you can slant the test towards certain types of intelligence by choosing certain questions, you can add more questions to improve the reliability of the test, there are lots of fine points that help to sharpen the resolution and widen the lense, but as long as they're all questions with definite right and wrong answers you've got the bulk of the thing down.
"Many police departments have traditionally discriminated against smart people"
I'm really not sure how /traditional/ this is. I'm aware of the case - I've pointed to it here before - but it's fairly recent. I have friends and family that were in law enforcement earlier than that and never heard of such a thing though. I think traditionally they tried to recruit smart people - but with relatively little success as most smart people opt for less dangerous jobs that pay better and scratch some sort of intellectual itch. I think the part about actively screening out applicants for being too smart is a newish thing, and as far as I understand it came from that source of so much evil in our world: /Human Resources./ You see, someone thinks that more intelligent police officers are more likely to change careers down the road than dumb ones. I'm not personally aware of any empirical proof of this, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it's true. If it is true, then excluding them does reduce the number of recruits that go through academy (at significant public expense) but leave the force relatively quickly. To that point it makes sense - the problem is that the obvious predictable side effect is more than enough to offset the savings.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 5, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday December 31 2018, @05:21PM
Nah, it was modded Interesting. Interesting doesn't require correctness, just that it brings up something worth talking about.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday December 31 2018, @02:19PM (1 child)
What legitimate reason do you have to offer that they should be? They may not tell the whole story of fitness for a job but they absolutely do tell part of it for coding jobs.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @02:56PM
It would probably depend on whether the test is redundant due to other interview requirements and assessments. I assume that a certain level of intelligence is needed.
The tests aren't illegal. I'm pretty sure that I was misremembering the details of this case:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co. [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @11:45AM (3 children)
"Not everyone does their best work in fast-paced, high-pressure situations."
That's a sweetly naive (or alternatively a knowingly evil) way of saying "Not everyone does their best work in situations where management have messed up the budgeting and/or the timescales."
The guy's going to get fired anyway for not using Segoe UI on his blog.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:13PM (2 children)
Well, management *does* mess up budgeting and timescales, so last-minute rush-jobs are the norm. If you find a company that doesn't have managers like that, please let us know.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday December 31 2018, @09:33PM (1 child)
I could present you heaps of cases (if only I'd have time) where last-minute rush jobs don't happen, because the rush-jobs over the entire development cycle is the norm - just think "Agile development".
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to finish my two rush-jobs for today ('cause who knows how many others I'll need to rush up tomorrow)
(grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @12:14AM
"rush-jobs over the entire development cycle is the norm - just think "Agile development""
Second that, that is why iterations were renamed to "sprints". Lime a long distance runner who constantly sprints, it either kills them or they are lying to themselves. As developers, we either job hop, make shortcuts to appear to continue velocity, or point pad when estimating.
(Score: 1) by NateMich on Monday December 31 2018, @11:46AM (2 children)
Is not in Silicon Valley.
(Score: 2) by Uncle_Al on Monday December 31 2018, @07:45PM
Microsoft had a campus on the same side of 101 and Shoreline as Google for decades.
It was torn down and is being rebuilt (I'm assuming they're moving back), they moved to the buildings
near 237 and 101 and have a huge sign on the building there.
The La Avenida campus held Web TV, XBox, and other developers and was started as the
place where MSFT Mac development was done.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday December 31 2018, @08:35PM
https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-this-is-what-our-revamped-silicon-valley-campus-will-look-like-by-2020/ [zdnet.com] Yes, their headquarters aren't in Silicon Valley, but that doesn't equate to not being in Silicon Valley.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 31 2018, @11:49AM (13 children)
Diversity. Even Microsoft has caught the disease. Whatever approach to hiring they have used in the past has WORKED FOR THEM. Plain and simple, they sit on are near the top of the pyramid, because their practices have WORKED.
"Oh, we've been successful enough - we're going to change things up, and start counting how many of each gender, how many of each color, how many of each height, how many extroverts and introverts. To hell with making money, we're going to play silly games now! Each of you needs to fill out this questionnaire, telling us how many languages you speak, how many dead languages, how many made up languages, your favorite color, . . . . . "
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @03:53PM (1 child)
The light in the Earth's shadow can't change because the moon is passing through it. So how does the lunar eclipse start out black, and end red?
Lunar eclipse time lapse [vimeo.com]
Next eclipse: January 20 2019 [timeanddate.com]
Video: Why is eclipse red? [businessinsider.com]
For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion(operation of wandering)(planet) so that they will believe the lie.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 01 2019, @03:39AM
Contrast. Your eyes (and video cameras) don't see the dim red light because of the bright light from the parts of the Moon that are still illuminated. But in a total eclipse situation you no longer have that glare.
Satan is the only would-be god of lies in your theology. A perfect being like God would have no reason or need to lie to us in any way. It's not surprising to me that you descend into outright blasphemy among your other bits of cognitive dissonance.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:17PM (6 children)
MS got a near monopoly in the early 90's and has been riding that position ever sense. No significant new product or idea has expanded outside of that position, except possibly the Xbox. When they have to compete on merit alone, they keep failing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:24PM
correction: "ever since"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by looorg on Monday December 31 2018, @04:27PM (2 children)
Just curios but what exactly was new and significant about the Xbox? There was already Nintendo consoles, Sony Playstation etc that had been out for decades already when the Xbox was released. Not to mention the multitude of gaming consoles (not "home" computers etc) that had fallen by the roadside up until that point. There wasn't anything technically impressive with it as far as I can recall. At least nothing revolutionary that had not been seen before. It seemed more like just another MS move trying to squeeze into another market with all their Windows-cash that they didn't know what to do with such as mp3 players, computer peripherals, mobile phones, computer games ... There just doesn't seem to be a market they don't like to choke their way into by tossing large amounts of dollars onto the burning pile of shit that it eventually turns into. Has there been a successful venture so far? Browsers failed, their search engines have been shit. I guess the Xbox is some kind of shining beacon in that regard.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by lentilla on Tuesday January 01 2019, @01:26AM (1 child)
DirectX? (I don't actually know the answer - but that's my best guess.) If game developers can write for PC and painlessly port to Xbox (or vice-versa) then XBox immediately becomes far more attractive than other consoles.
So you are probably correct in saying there was nothing particularly special about the Xbox - except that Microsoft was able to take advantage of its monopoly position. Business as usual.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Tuesday January 01 2019, @01:59PM
Could be, I didn't consider that. But it's probably true. It was probably a double win for the developers. That said it was fairly bad for PC gaming since the conversions from Xbox->PC was normally horribly crappy. You could really tell which was the, bad, conversion titles -- frame locks and the game was so obviously used to be played with a controller instead of the normal mouse+keyboard combo (some didn't even bother to change the graphics telling you to hit the X-button etc).
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Tuesday January 01 2019, @12:54AM (1 child)
Azure would suggest differently. They're actually a viable alternative to AWS in many cases, despite having had to play serious catch-up in this area.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @09:49PM
Did that actually come out of MS, or did they buy their way into competitiveness like they did with everything else?
(Score: 2) by legont on Monday December 31 2018, @05:46PM
True.
Another point - one has to satisfy customer requirements; even those that have nothing to do with the product itself. If clients want the project partially done by lesbian Eskimo of challenging abilities, let them have it. Microsoft's advantage is that it can afford such requirements, while a smaller shop might not. That's why diversity is supported by big business regardless of costs.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @07:58PM (1 child)
Microsoft had caught that disease many, many years ago. The splashscreens on the Visual Studio 2008 installer are testimony to that.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 31 2018, @08:29PM
I wouldn't know. I don't install Microsoft products.
(Score: 2) by stormreaver on Monday December 31 2018, @10:08PM
Microsoft dominates because Bill Gates was willing to bend, and frequently break, the boundaries of legality; Not because of the quality of its products.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @05:52PM
So that explains why they suck. Hiring policy does not worry about your actual technical qualifications, but instead your skills in 'jeopardy'.
(Score: 2) by Barenflimski on Monday December 31 2018, @09:10PM (2 children)
I was once asked the following, for a fairly low level position. They did not have a whole lot of applicants.
Please answer the following, these are not technical questions.
Red or Blue?
Android or Iphone?
Elephants or Pigs?
I would never ask these questions in an interview, and honestly don't know how they could help answer anyone's questions about a human being or why this would be important to a specific tech job.
Why would someone ask these questions?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @09:42PM
How could they miss the critical ones such as "Boxers or Briefs?", or perhaps the ultimate: "Emacs or VI?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @10:53PM
Kirk or Piccard?
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Wednesday January 02 2019, @04:42AM
> The interview process for Silicon Valley developer jobs has always had a reputation of being an arcane trial by fire
I believe most tech companies dropped brain teasers from interviews a long time ago. When I interviewed, I never encountered any. I'm surprised Microsoft still had them, even considering that they're Microsoft.
For example, I see a source saying Google banned them in 2010 or so.
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/why-brainteasers-dont-belong-in-job-interviews [newyorker.com]
The "arcane trial by fire" part is probably mostly because most "developers" can't write code. It's like asking someone with no education to pass an electrician's exam, of course it's going to feel like an "arcane trial by fire".
https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ [codinghorror.com]
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