Toyota's game-changing solid-state battery en route for 2021 debut
A trip of 500 km on one charge. A recharge from zero to full in 10 minutes. All with minimal safety concerns. The solid-state battery being introduced by Toyota promises to be a game changer not just for electric vehicles but for an entire industry.
The technology is a potential cure-all for the drawbacks facing electric vehicles that run on conventional lithium-ion batteries, including the relatively short distance traveled on a single charge as well as charging times. Toyota plans to be the first company to sell an electric vehicle equipped with a solid-state battery in the early 2020s. The world's largest automaker will unveil a prototype next year.
[...] Solid-state batteries are expected to become a viable alternative to lithium-ion batteries that use aqueous electrolyte solutions. The innovation would lower the risk of fires, and multiply energy density, which measures the energy a battery can deliver compared to its weight.
It would take roughly 10 minutes to charge an electric vehicle equipped with a solid-state battery, cutting the recharging time by two-thirds.
[...] Toyota stands at the top of the global heap with over 1,000 patents involving solid-state batteries. Nissan Motor plans to develop its own solid-state battery which will power a non-simulation vehicle by 2028.
[...] The government is putting together a fund of about 2 trillion yen ($19.2 billion) that will support decarbonization technology. Policymakers will consider using those funds to provide subsidies of hundreds of billions of yen that will fund the development of the new batteries.
The goal is to support the development of a mass-production infrastructure within Japan. Because solid-state batteries use lithium, an element with limited global reserves, the government will assist in procuring the material.
There was no mention of applicability to powering laptops, cell phones, power tools, and other cordless devices.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by MIRV888 on Sunday December 27 2020, @01:20PM (6 children)
There's going to be a tipping point when batteries can put out enough juice in a compact size reliably.
It will open up a whole new world of electrical devices,
and we are getting closer and closer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @06:55PM
Like nuclear fusion, that moment always been 2 years away.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by toddestan on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:44PM
In many ways, we're already there. Something like the popular toy drones wouldn't have been possible more than a few years back, because there was no battery that was light enough, that could hold enough charge, and could put out enough current to make it possible.
(Score: 2) by corey on Sunday December 27 2020, @10:00PM (3 children)
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday December 27 2020, @10:37PM
Indirectly but quick https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=20/12/18/2152252 [soylentnews.org]
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by MIRV888 on Monday December 28 2020, @11:51PM (1 child)
Boston Dynamics. If that device gets a long battery life we'll be living in blade runner pretty quick.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 29 2020, @12:57AM
More batteries = more police state.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @01:29PM (6 children)
If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't true.
My dad taught me that as a boy.
Hasn't been wrong, ever. Except, maybe, for SpaceX. But being wrong once in a lifetime is a fair average.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @04:06PM (1 child)
I'm reading the Wikipedia article on this and while cost is likely not the only factor I found this interesting.
"Solid-state batteries are traditionally expensive to make[37] and employs manufacturing processes thought to be difficult to scale, requiring expensive vacuum deposition equipment.[7] It was estimated in 2012 that, based on then-current technology, a 20 Ah solid-state battery cell would cost US$100,000, and a high-range electric car would require 800 to 1,000 of such cells."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery [wikipedia.org]
So if cost can come down substantially ....
(Score: 3, Interesting) by hash14 on Sunday December 27 2020, @06:15PM
I'm rarely optimistic about these sorts of things, but I think there's good reason to be optimistic that the manufacturing process will improve significantly. We've seen great progress in semiconductor manufacturing. Moore's law held for multiple decades in the world of integrated circuits, and in just a short time, photovoltaic panels went from being a pipe dream to being one of the most cost-effective energy sources.
I'm not sure how comparable manufacturing processes for these batteries will compare to those examples, but I will be prudently hopeful on this.
(Score: 4, Informative) by requerdanos on Sunday December 27 2020, @05:44PM (2 children)
On that note, when I read "The innovation would lower the risk of fires, and multiply energy density" -- I think that the two would be directly proportional, not inversely so. IOW, it seems to me that if you multiply energy density, that's more fire risk.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @06:07PM (1 child)
Wouldn't it depend on the potential amount of energy that can be released at any one (short) time.
If you have a high density energy source but it can only release energy very slowly that could be less dangerous than a much lower one that can release energy much more quickly.
Think of a battery vs a capacitor. You can use a battery to charge a capacitor and make an electric taser.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @06:10PM
Another example could be gun powder/explosives/dynamite or even explosive fireworks vs gasoline.
It's not just the energy density it's the potential speed that the energy can possibly be released at.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 28 2020, @04:32PM
Since SpaceX is a Musk venture, same as Tesla, you'll have your too good too be true moment. Promise.
If for Tesla, this hasn't been when you learned about how much their cars phone home or that they're using Bluetooth as a critical security component, how about when you learned about Musk boasting on Twitter that the USG is instigating regime change so he can get cheap lithium?
(Score: 5, Informative) by KritonK on Sunday December 27 2020, @01:52PM (18 children)
This isn't enough information, to figure out the capacity of this battery, but we can make an educated guess. Let's assume that the engine in a car equipped with such a battery will be similar to that of another car by the same manufacturer, the RAV4 EV [wikipedia.org], which had a range of 95 miles using a 27 kWh battery. With a 500 km (310 mile) range, this gives us a battery with a capacity of 88kWh. To charge such a battery in 10 minutes, you will need, according to my calculations, an outlet that can provide 528 kW of power. Assuming a 220 V outlet, this means that you'll be drawing 2400 Amps. You'll be tripping every breaker in the neighborhood, if you try to charge your car! I suppose that you could charge the battery in a slow mode, using a more reasonable 30 Amps, which is still a lot, but then you'd need over 13 hours for a full charge. This is a reasonable, overnight charging period, but nowhere near as impressive as the instantaneous-sounding 10 minutes.
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Sunday December 27 2020, @02:15PM
local power storage with dedicated, high-current stations.
(Score: 2) by MIRV888 on Sunday December 27 2020, @02:51PM
I was thinking huge capacitor arrays.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by pTamok on Sunday December 27 2020, @03:27PM (5 children)
Tesla superchargers can now (currently) deliver, depending on the model, 72, 150 or 250 kW (at 450V), and where I live there is an increasing number of non-Tesla 150 kW chargers available. 10 minutes at 150 kW gives you 25 kWh. If 88 kWh gives you 500 km of range, then 25 kWh gives you 142 km, which is a reasonable top up. 3-phase home charges can deliver 22 kW, if your local electricity infrastructure can support it, so in principle, a 4-hour charge from zero to full.
It's good, but until battery-electric can do better than a tank of diesel, people will still criticise the technology. A production Audi estate car can do 1000 miles on a tank of diesel, which is roughly 1600 km.
(AUDI A3 Sportback 30 TDI (2016-) Fuel tank size 60 litres, fuel consumption (combined) 4.4 litres/100 km.
(Score: 2) by legont on Sunday December 27 2020, @11:23PM (4 children)
Also, one can take cans along. I have 3 20 liters NATO ones.
Another consideration is that power infrastructure in the US is way less reliable than gas one. It's normal to spend days and even weeks without electricity at all. It's going on right now where I live. Can I see an estimate of how much it would cost to bring it to the gas level of reliability?
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Monday December 28 2020, @02:13AM (3 children)
My experience with power grid reliability has been significantly different from yours. The longest outage I've ever experienced was a week, and that was during a once-in-a-lifetime ice storm. Excluding that gross outlier, I'm without power at home less than four hours per year. (Rutherford County, Middle Tennessee, USA)
As a comparison, I've experienced three multi-day fuel outages where gas pumps have wait times > 30 minutes, experienced rationing, or ran entirely dry. I'm not an expert on the topic, but my understanding is this happens when there is a bad storm in the gulf that shuts the refineries down, or rumors of that cause a run on gas.
(Score: 2) by legont on Monday December 28 2020, @11:29AM (2 children)
That's why I just have 60 liters of gas in my garage all the time - simple and effective. Most folks around have diesel generators while I don't - I drive to visit friends with power using stored gas. I am in NJ.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 28 2020, @01:13PM (1 child)
you guys in the USA are really a 2nd world country in electricity system ! :D
Here in Portugal, the i only had 2 power cuts this year, one for about 5m and another about 20m... and i do not recall any power cut in 2019.
Usually only areas (small towns) with those big forest fires have have problems for more than a few hours
(Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Monday December 28 2020, @03:28PM
My power outages are usually caused by drunks killing themselves on telephone poles. It's a cost of living in a rural area. I assume that parent poster lives in California which has far more frequent power outages due to mismanagement and incompetence.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @05:15PM (1 child)
> 528 kW of power. Assuming a 220 V outlet, this means that you'll be drawing 2400 Amps
Came here to say something similar. Most 10 minute charges will be at a commercial charging station (in the middle of a road trip). Just forget about that kind of power at a residence.
But there is still a problem with the conductor size. Assume the charger is 440V, then the charge current is 1200 Amps. Looking here, http://wiresizecalculator.net/wiresizechart.htm [wiresizecalculator.net]
the largest table entry is 750 amps and the the wire size is 2000 kcmil (k circular mils).
From the bottom line on this chart https://www.ihiconnectors.com/AWG%20wire%20sizes.htm [ihiconnectors.com]
the wire diameter is 1.414 inches (35.92 mm).
Who will be able to lift/flex the cable and plug the car in when you have two of these monster wires in the cable?! Surely no one is going to accept two separate cables, with two plugs?
Maybe the solution is to charge at 880v or higher? Getting kinda scary now...what if it's raining and an old connector leaks... And even then the wires are very thick.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @10:47PM
Or wait until it rains, put the antenna up and wait for the lightening.
(Score: 3, Funny) by fakefuck39 on Sunday December 27 2020, @05:43PM
so this about double the delivery rate of the widely deployed supercharger network. you're also assuming you can't *whoa* plug in a dual-cable connector, and that for some reason, the charging happens at my house at 220V.
since you're clearly trying to spin a bs narrative, and hide your intentions in basic arithmetic, but are doing a poor job at it, lemme help ya. let's also assume you're off-grid and only have a solar panel, and that it's night time in alaska. this car is useless. it would literally take 6 months for 1 charge. what the hell were they thinking.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @06:58PM (1 child)
Every time you drive, do you drain the gas tank from full to empty? If not then..... shut the fuck up.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:49PM
> do you drain the gas tank from full to empty?
In the case of one car, yes -- it only gets used for long trips* and runs from full to very near empty several times on each trip. There were 4 of these long trips in the past 6 months (replacing what would have been an airline trip, pre-virus).
*I inherited another older car that has a stick shift. That's more fun for local trips, but it's so old that I don't trust it on a long trip.
(Score: 2) by corey on Sunday December 27 2020, @10:04PM (3 children)
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Monday December 28 2020, @12:28AM
1 KV throws really nice arcs!
Consider welding takes place at 20-24 volts once the arc is struck.
I am not gonna piss all over this, but there is a lot more detail here than your typical management overview one would give to a layman.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 28 2020, @02:01AM (1 child)
Even at 1KV, the wire size to do that really fast charging is unmanageable by a normal person. Perhaps they will have to go with pumped water-cooled cables?
Google found a bunch of suppliers, here's one chosen at random,
http://www.watteredge.com/industrial-power-cables/water-cooled-cables/intermediate-cables.html [watteredge.com]
I've seen something similar used for the connecting wires for a ~1000 hp DC motor that is on a machine where the motor has to move several feet around the room. The water cooled cables look like big garden hoses, with the copper inside. Not sure how the water supply is handled, seems like it would have to be de-ionized water or the high voltages would start to conduct through the water as well as the copper?
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday December 28 2020, @11:37PM
Duty cycle its all about the duty cycle.
If you wanna charge charge charge all day long a line of people you can't accept a delta-T above 0. In fact to be safe the cooling system has to have a negative delta-T on the sunniest hottest day of the year with the filthiest dirty contacts etc.
On the other hand, if you accept 100 degrees F every minute, thats not even half way to melting point.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 28 2020, @06:55PM
you have top fast charge speed and normal charge speed, of course both aren't done in the same way, in the same voltage!
The 10min fast charge is for "gas stations", that will have special chargers and so special electric supply.
At home, with normal plug you would get the 13h for a full charge... but most people don't use 500Km everyday, so you probably do not have that much people doing full charge to be a problem.
For those that do, they either install some special home chargers (dual chargers would give you ~6h to full charge, that should be ok for everyone) or fill up in some gas station, just like a gasoline car would need too, as normal people can't fill up the gas tank at home too
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Sunday December 27 2020, @02:18PM (8 children)
I'm interested to hear about the safety aspects, weight, size, and suitability for marine use. I'd love to convert from diesel to electric.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @04:30PM (7 children)
Thinking outloud, the high cost of lithium is justified in a car where weight is a problem. But many boats already carry lead as keel weight, so replacing that with some heavier (and cheaper) technology batteries doesn't seem like a big deal?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by hemocyanin on Sunday December 27 2020, @06:38PM (6 children)
I could see an electrically powered sail boat or trawler type power boat where you basically do hull speed very efficiently. I have friend with a 27' sailboat and she told me once she can do 30ish NM on about a gallon of diesel with her motor -- it has a HP rating in the low teens if I recall correctly. This is at around 4 knots. A different person I know has a trawler type boat of about 40' with a 120 HP diesel and at 5 or 6 knots, he can do roughly 6ish NM on a gallon (not as impressive as the sailboat but that thing is like a floating apartment and you're never cramped). I have a gas powered 26' planing hulled boat where heavy weight is a detriment to getting up on plane -- I cruise at about 16-18 knots and travel 1.5 NM on a gallon of gas.
The amount of energy required to go fast in a boat is insane. There must be some calculation with an exponential fuel increase related to speed once you get past hull speed, but for boats not designed to go over hull speed, I'd think electric could be viable presently.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:01PM (2 children)
Any idea of the mpg of a superyacht? At some point, they must be more fuel tanker than luxury boat.
(Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:44PM (1 child)
Here's a crazy boat -- 70 knots, three jet turbine engines, 17000 HP, 1 liter per second fuel consumption (*):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0zKTugeg-E [youtube.com]
3.79 L/Gal, or 1 gal every 3.79 s, 15.8 gal/minute, 950 gal/hr. 70 knots is 80.5 miles. So this gets 0.084 MPG at top speed. At $4/gal, that would be $3800/hr, $63/min, just over a buck a second.
So now I've opened myself up to a math error!
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @11:44PM
*Please remember during your stay to hang your towel back on the rack to reduce CO2 emissions doing unncessary laundry.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @08:39PM (1 child)
> planing hulled boat ... 16-18 knots and travel 1.5 NM on a gallon of gas
Have you thought about adding hydrofoils and getting (nearly) completely out of the water? I think that might have to be part of any battery electric boat that goes fast.
(Score: 1) by pTamok on Monday December 28 2020, @10:11AM
Or put a skirt on it and make a hovercraft:
Finnish Hovercraft Company Oy: Kaiman-10 [finhov.fi]
Top speed over water: about 80 km/h
Top speed over ice & snow: about 120 km/h
Fuel consumption 25-35 litres per hour.
Or, you can go '**insane**': 230bhp Formula One Racing Hovercraft For Sale! [britishhovercraft.com]
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday December 28 2020, @11:45PM
BIG power difference between getting up on plane and hull speed. Hull speed is not terribly fast.
I worked really hard on the numbers to make a solar powered boat and the numbers were NOT pretty.
If you can afford a boat long enough that hull speed is "fast enough" then you're so rich that time is money and just stick a gas engine on it. If you put solar panels on a small boat, the total power generated will be far to little to get on plane and as such you'll be putting along at like 3 knots.
Now there are obscure situations like a trolling motor on a sailboat with a solar panel and if the wind dies then you can get maybe ten nautical miles per day depending on ocean currents and stuff. Then it starts getting food limited where carrying enough food to spend six months crossing the atlantic gets to be an issue.
And don't get me started on weight and balance. Also heavy batteries would seem natural for a keel-area location WRT stability but they tend not to be water proof.
Its a scalability thing. My grandpa's trolling motor could push maybe thousands of feet per charge on a little aluminum fishing skiff like 10 feet long, but that's not enough for a "real" boat.
Even if 100% efficient solar panels existed it STILL might be more efficient to have on shore solar panels power an everclear ethanol still and stick an internal combustion engine on the boat.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday December 28 2020, @11:51PM
WRT solid batteries a lot of "sins" can be covered up by liquid electrolyte being a bit sloshy as cases flex and vaporizing mostly harmlessly when modestly overheated.
I would also look into the painful history of the nightmare of MLCC cracking on printed circuit boards, then consider 1e6 times the energy getting dumped by a battery explosion. Your supposed class-X MLCC shorts out on a switching power supply and it scorches the board as it dies, but a zillion kilowatt-hours getting dumped in automobile ceramic crack is going to be way more exciting, like star trek/star wars style equipment malfunction.
I mean, I'd feel kinda nervous about having a fitbit on my wrist powered by a ceramic battery, much less an entire car battery full of power under my butt in a car.
You know, the same people who get nervous about using a couple ounces of propane as an auto HVAC refrigerant are not going to be amused the first time they see a ceramic battery explosion at full power...
On the other hand there's been enough cracked MLCC over the years that there are strategies and maybe it'll all work.