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posted by martyb on Thursday December 02, @03:35AM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the liberty-or-death dept.

Judge blocks Biden vaccine rule, citing “liberty interests of the unvaccinated”

A federal judge yesterday blocked a Biden administration COVID-19 vaccine mandate for health care workers, granting a request for preliminary injunction filed by Republican attorneys general from 14 states.

US District Judge Terry Doughty ruled that the government lacks authority to implement the rule that "requires the staff of twenty-one types of Medicare and Medicaid healthcare providers to receive one vaccine by December 6, 2021, and to receive the second vaccine by January 4, 2022." Providers that don't comply face penalties, including "termination of the Medicare/Medicaid Provider Agreement."

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) mandate regulates over 10.3 million health care workers in the US, of which 2.4 million are unvaccinated. The Biden vaccine rule is being challenged by the attorneys general from Louisiana, Montana, Arizona, Alabama, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Ohio. The Republican AGs' lawsuit was filed against CMS and the US Department of Health and Human Services.

The preliminary injunction they won applies nationwide except for 10 states that "are already under a preliminary injunction order dated November 29, 2021, issued by the Eastern District of Missouri," a court order said. Those states are Alaska, Arkansas, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, New Hampshire, Nebraska, Wyoming, North Dakota, and South Dakota.

What states did not participate in this lawsuit and were not covered by the earlier preliminary injunction — i.e. got swept into this decision?

California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District Of Columbia, Florida, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, and Wisconsin.


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  • (Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @03:43AM (37 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @03:43AM (#1201352)

    I guess the liberty to kill others is a thing

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @03:53AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @03:53AM (#1201355)

      The liberty to lie is absolutely a thing which tools like you use to laughable extremes.
      https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/07/30/1022867219/cdc-study-provincetown-delta-vaccinated-breakthrough-mask-guidance [npr.org]
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-28/getting-vaccinated-doesn-t-stop-people-from-spreading-delta [bloomberg.com]
      It is impossible for you degenerates not to know this proven fact at this late date. The lie is dead, give it rest.

    • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:48AM (30 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:48AM (#1201376)

      "to kill others"...

      Um, who are the "others"? Vaccinated people? Ah, no, they're pretty much protected. Hmmm, who could it be, these "others" you refer to...

      Oh! The unvaccinated! But wait, they're the ones you're railing against. Suddenly you care about them?? I'm so confused.

      TBF, there are some who for serious medical reasons must not receive SARS-CoV-2 vaccination, so yes, they're being put at risk. But remember, vaccinated people can contract and spread COVID.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Opportunist on Thursday December 02, @05:03AM (10 children)

        by Opportunist (5545) on Thursday December 02, @05:03AM (#1201377)

        You know, it feels like talking to the religious nuts and trying to explain to them why their "arguments" are bollocks. No matter how many times you explain to them why their arguments are rubbish, they still come back with the same argument, hoping that eventually they'll end up talking to someone who didn't hear the debunk for their bullshit.

        No vaccination is perfect. Not only are there people who cannot get vaccinated, there are also people whose immune system isn't stable enough to withstand an infection even with vaccination. With enough people immunized in the population, this is usually still good enough to create a stable group immunity level to avoid an outbreak.

        Without, we have what we have now.

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:18AM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:18AM (#1201384)

          Which part of "does not stop people from spreading virus" is too hard for you to understand?
          https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/modern-day-censorship/in-gibraltar-100-of-adults-are-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19-and-yet-new-cases-are-exploding/ [riotimesonline.com]
          Look Ma, no group immunity!

          You cannot "debunk" observed facts. This is winter 2021, not spring 2020, there is no "fog of war" left for you to abuse.

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Thursday December 02, @05:47AM

            by Opportunist (5545) on Thursday December 02, @05:47AM (#1201392)

            Did you just introduce a new argument and berate me for not countering it pre-emptively?

            Gibraltar is experiencing an increase in cases like pretty much all of Europe right now. They have a significant number of new cases, by far not the most right now per capita, but it's really high.

            On the other hand, the last day when more than one person died from Covid there was in February. now, of course Gibraltar is a small country and deaths are by definition discreet since it's impossible to half-die, but considering that of the roughly 100 people who died in Gibraltar, less than 10 of them died since the onset of the vaccinations, I dare say there might be some sort of connection, don't you think?

          • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:58PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:58PM (#1201507)

            Clearly you do not understand group immunity.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday December 02, @01:13PM (3 children)

          by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @01:13PM (#1201462) Journal

          There's also a chance that you could kill somebody by getting behind the wheel of your car, people who are completely innocent and have done nothing wrong. How dare you take chances with their lives?! Why can't you just take the subway or ride a bike like you have been told to do? If you would just cooperate, then everybody could be 100% safe.

          You keep talking about probabilities when 100% solutions are what you secretly think they are.

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Thursday December 02, @03:06PM

            by Opportunist (5545) on Thursday December 02, @03:06PM (#1201512)

            Amazing. You apparently know more about how I think than I do.

            Im my country, about 300-500 people die every year from car accidents (ignoring 2020, that year we had an all-time low for obvious reasons). Which is about 10-15 times fewer people than died from Covid.

            Cars at least work as transportation means, so using them has a purpose that could be considered warranting the endangering of those 500 people. What exactly is the purpose of not being vaccinated that warrants the killing of ten times as many people? It should be something that's about 10 times as important as transporting people, goods and services.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by pipedwho on Friday December 03, @04:37AM (1 child)

            by pipedwho (2032) on Friday December 03, @04:37AM (#1201734)

            This is the reasoning the has speed limits imposed to reduce the risks of killing or injuring others. Likewise, mandating a vaccine is equivalent to other laws that avoid unnecessary deaths.

            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday December 03, @05:34PM

              by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 03, @05:34PM (#1201866) Journal

              Great. Then you won't have a problem when the government implants a control chip in your head. It's for your safety, after all. And before then, you certainly won't have a problem when they overturn Roe vs. Wade; "My body, my choice" doesn't really work as a slogan when you advocate forcibly injecting people against their will.

              Personally, I am pro-choice and do agree that bodily autonomy is sacrosanct. The government does have no business telling you what to do with your body or your healthcare. I try hard to avoid hypocrisy.

              "We're doing it for your own good!" is the cry of every tyrant.

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @07:23PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @07:23PM (#1201600)

          You're a stupid fucking cowardly slave. I am not responsible for your puny immune system, or viruses unless i manufacture them and inject you with them. It's you vaxxed umbrella corp zombies who are manufacturing spike proteins, causing "breakthrough" infections and variants and shedding them on humans (unvaxxed people).

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:36AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:36AM (#1201717)

            lol

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by Opportunist on Friday December 03, @07:09AM

            by Opportunist (5545) on Friday December 03, @07:09AM (#1201764)

            Since I have a discussion with someone on another site about what an ad-hominem attack looks like when you run out of arguments, I hope you don't mind if I link this one as a great example.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:55AM (15 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:55AM (#1201395)

        The unvaccinated are hogging medical services. Let's put them in the back of the line if they don't want the vax

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by pTamok on Thursday December 02, @09:17AM (11 children)

          by pTamok (3042) on Thursday December 02, @09:17AM (#1201415)

          The unvaccinated are hogging medical services. Let's put them in the back of the line if they don't want the vax

          Cigarette smokers are hogging medical services. Let's put them in the back of the line if they choose not to give up
          The obese are hogging medical services. Let's put them in the back of the line if they choose not to control their eating
          The poor are hogging medical services. Let's put them in the back of the line if they choose not to work harder
          Drunks are hogging medical services. Let's put them in the back of the line if they choose not to be sober
          Parachutists are hogging medical services. Let's put them in the back of the line if they choose to throw themselves out of aircraft that work fine.

          It can be argued that anyone who chooses a course of action that generates an increased risk of needing medical services is placing an unreasonable load on medical services, and therefore should be denied those services.

          Medical ethics works on the basis of treating the patient and not looking at why the patient is presenting themselves. Collectivised and insurance-based payment for medical services takes the view that it is reasonable and fair to spread the risk across the paying population so that individuals who are hit by rare (or even not-so-rare) catastrophic events are not ruined by medical expenses.

          Excluding people for making poor choices is not ethical. I agree that it is a huge problem, and the problem of people making poor choices needs to be addressed. It is possible to debate whether coercion is an appropriate response, considering the public health crisis we are living in. Some people take the strong view that it is always wrong to coerce in a free society - although coercing psychotic people into medical treatment seems to be generally accepted - but no everyone agrees that non-coercion is correct when the consequences are dire.

          I think individual liberty is important. Not everyone does, and certainly when individual liberty has consequences for other people, we get into a difficult area. I have no simple answer.

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:44AM (8 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:44AM (#1201435)

            Medical ethics works on the basis of treating the patient and not looking at why the patient is presenting themselves.

            An overbroad statement is rarely true. A counterexample proving this false as an iron-vlad rule is organ transplants not being given to smokers or drunks.

            • (Score: 2) by stretch611 on Thursday December 02, @12:05PM (7 children)

              by stretch611 (6199) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @12:05PM (#1201441)

              You might want to check your facts... then again you probably don't care about facts.

              My father was a drinker and smoker (2 packs of unfiltered camels a day at his peak; at least half his life at that level of smoking.)

              20 years ago he had his heart and both lungs transplanted at the same time. (from a single donor) Prior to that he had a kidney transplant (I don't remember if it was just one or two.)

              While he obviously abstained from drinking and smoking while in the hospital waiting for a donor he went right back to both after he was released.

              --
              I think; therefore, I am vaccinated (and boosted.)
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:18PM (5 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:18PM (#1201443)

                You provided 1 example of someone who squeaked by, but that doesn't disprove my counterexample at all:

                Excluding Criteria for Liver Transplant

                Cancer outside the liver
                Alcohol for at least 6 months
                Substance abuse
                Active infections
                Disabling psychiatric conditions
                Documented medical non-compliance
                Lack of adequate social support
                Lack of adequate insurance
                Other diseases or conditions

                https://www.upmc.com/services/transplant/liver/candidates [upmc.com]

                • (Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @01:54PM (2 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @01:54PM (#1201476)

                  And to a European, this is the worst of all: "Lack of adequate insurance". It is not health care, it is medicine for profit.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 02, @10:55PM (1 child)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @10:55PM (#1201675) Journal
                    Someone has to pay for it, even in Europe.
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:40AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:40AM (#1201718)

                      Wtf?

                      Seriously, I don't get this. "But somebody has to pay for it! Waaaaah!" Of course somebody has to pay for it, numbnuts!

                      You just can't stand the fact that they pay much less per capita than American healthcare, and it's OMG SOCIALIST. OMG capitalism couldn't find the optimal solution!! OMG! GOM! GHOM! MOHGHOMYOG!

                • (Score: 3, Informative) by stretch611 on Thursday December 02, @11:23PM (1 child)

                  by stretch611 (6199) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @11:23PM (#1201679)

                  And you provided reference to only a single place with those requirements... and it is specifically for livers (and alcohol consumption has a major influence on liver health.) And it does not specifically mention smoking.

                  As another poster mentioned... "adequate insurance is required"
                  Also notice "adequate social support"... so if you don't have enough family/friends to watch over you, they will let you die. (and I doubt a large facebook friendslist will qualify.)
                  "Other diseases or conditions"... oops you are one of the many adults with diabetes... disqualified.

                  The fact is that different locations have different qualifications. Some places will not take high risk patients because their staff may not be experienced and refer you to a place with better qualified doctors that can give better care for increased chances of success. (Or they are interested in boasting a high rate of success and do not want to risk their reputation on a high risk individual.)

                  Yes, my father was a high risk case. He actually had 2 heart attacks before he was even 50. He also needed an aortic stent before a transplant could even be considered. He actually went into NY and saw the (in)famous Dr Oz. Dr Oz refused to do anything because he was high risk and Dr Oz kept his success rate up by only treating easier cases with higher chances. My father ended up going to a university hospital in Philadelphia (IUP iirc) where they accepted high risk cases.

                  There are no universal standards (as already pointed out.) The fact is that when an organ becomes available it doesn't necessarily go to the best candidate... in fact it often goes to the best *local* candidate as the length of time the organ is not in a living body has a large impact on the success rate.

                  smokers/drinkers may not have as easy time getting a transplant, but the are not disqualified.

                  --
                  I think; therefore, I am vaccinated (and boosted.)
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @07:33AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @07:33AM (#1201771)

                    My argument was that it happens, which requires exactly 1 example. In order to disprove me, you have to show that there are NO examples.

                    You failed Logic 101. Jesus fuck. What did they teach you in school..

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 05, @04:26PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 05, @04:26PM (#1202368)

                "Sure, you say murder is illegal but the zodiac killer murdered a bunch of people and was never arrested. Q.E.D."

          • (Score: 4, Touché) by epitaxial on Thursday December 02, @01:09PM

            by epitaxial (3165) on Thursday December 02, @01:09PM (#1201459)

            Let me know when those conditions are contagious.

          • (Score: 2) by digitalaudiorock on Thursday December 02, @04:33PM

            by digitalaudiorock (688) on Thursday December 02, @04:33PM (#1201544)

            While the things you've listed do use a lot of medical services, none of them, nor even all of them put together, ever causes an ICU to run out of beds.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday December 02, @06:10PM (1 child)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @06:10PM (#1201575) Journal

          The unvaccinated are hogging medical services. Let's put them in the back of the line if they don't want the vax

          Singapore to end free Covid treatment for unvaccinated [soylentnews.org]

          I predict more countries will do this.

          Simple fact: It is the unvaccinated that are clogging up hospitals and taking up all of the ICU beds. Yes, some vaccinated do get breakthrough infections, and some portion of those get hospitalized -- but not in nearly the numbers of the unvaccinated.

          A person with a heart attack or who was in an auto accident should not be denied an ICU bed because someone wouldn't get vaccinated.

          --
          A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @07:54PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @07:54PM (#1201610)

            No. More countries will not do that. If you read, in detail, Singapore's plan you would realize this.

            15. The Government is currently footing the full COVID-19 medical bills of all Singaporeans, Permanent Residents and Long-Term Pass Holders (SCs/PRs/LTPHs), other than for those who tested positive soon after returning from overseas travel. This was to avoid financial considerations adding to public uncertainty and concern when COVID-19 was an emergent and unfamiliar disease. For the majority who are vaccinated, this special approach for COVID-19 bills will continue until the COVID-19 situation is more stable.

            Note the sentence in bold.

            The Singapore government doesn't normally offer free covid treatment. For anyone. It was an exception made to ease the pandemic, and public perception. But now the pandemic has gone on longer than expected and this is costing the govenment more than they planned. They're not taking away treatment for unvaccinated patients, they're ending a program that was created for the pandemic. Starting with unvaccinated patients. Who will now rely on the existing heath benefits they always had before the pandemic.

            Singapore isn't taking away anything. They are ending short term benefits which never existed before the pandemic. And this is why comparing them to any other country is apples and oranges.

        • (Score: 1) by Coligny on Friday December 03, @05:50AM

          by Coligny (2200) on Friday December 03, @05:50AM (#1201755)

          No…

          Just really no…

          Full pandemic - pre vaccine France.

          Hospital load for covid patient was 4%.(official data report from the healthcare ministry)

          Now, with the lack of previous flue season there are real worries for this year flue season.
          Not for the next unicron planet eating mutation of covid.

          Also… taking into account the appearance of new variants.
          Really tell tell me how you prove a negative in the “vaccine prevent complications” for covid. Just tell me how you can state that it’s because of the vaccine and not the usual mechanisme by which, virus that are good at spreading are bad at killing…
          Or… how the vaccine could work so well at reducing risks on variants but need countless booster shots because they also don’t work on variants…. Or something….

          Lastly… how can companies come up with so many vaccine but no treatment. Or why on earth Russian or chinese vaccine are not recognized by western healthcare ministries…

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday December 02, @06:27PM (2 children)

        by Thexalon (636) on Thursday December 02, @06:27PM (#1201580)

        So in addition to the people who can't get vaccinated due to allergies and such, there's also very young children for whom no vaccination protocol exists, and people whose countries don't have enough vaccine doses to go around. Congrats, you're killing 4-year-olds because your mother never convinced you that there was no real reason to be afraid of going to the doctor and getting a shot.

        As for the rest of your points, I think the problem is your data model is oversimplified. As in, I'm pretty sure you're mental data model looks something like this:

        Larry: Infected? Yes Vaxxed? No
        Curly: Infected? No  Vaxxed? No
        Moe:   Infected? No  Vaxxed? Yes
        ...
        Groucho: Infected? Yes Vaxxed? Yes
        Harpo:   Infected? No  Vaxxed? No
        Chico:   Infected? No  Vaxxed? Yes

        For the sake of simplicity, we'll assume that both comedy trios regularly come in maskless contact with each other.

        So, in your mind, each tick of the clock, there's a percentage chance that Curly and Moe will get infected by Larry, and a percentage chance that Harpo and Chico will be infected by Groucho. And when the dust settles, the unvaccinated Larry and Curly and Harpo might be dead, the vaccinated Moe and Groucho and Chico will almost definitely be fine, so therefor the choice to get vaccinated is a personal choice about whether your fears about vaccination are greater or less than your fears about getting Covid-19.

        And that mental model makes a certain amount of sense, but it's imprecise, and we lose a lot in that imprecision. Contrast that mental model with this:

        Larry: Virus: 100000000 Antibodies: 1000000
        Curly: Virus: 0         Antibodies: 0
        Moe:   Virus: 0         Antibodies: 15000000
        ...
        Groucho: Virus: 100000 Antibodies: 15100000
        Harpo:   Virus: 0      Antibodies: 0
        Chico:   Virus: 0      Antibodies: 18000000

        And each tick of the clock, several things happen:
        - If your virus count is over 1,000,000,000, you die.
        - Your virus count changes by a complex formula that reflects both exponential growth of the virus as it reproduces, plus your antibodies slowing down said exponential growth, plus the normal loss of viruses through sneezing, sweating, urinating, etc. But generally speaking, if you have a lot of antibodies, your virus count goes down, if you don't it goes up.
        - If you are infected, your immune system makes anywhere between 10,000 and 500,000 antibodies.
        - If your virus count is above zero, you'll cough on your mates, giving them 1% of your viruses.

        Looking at the Stooges: Larry is in trouble, because his antibodies might not increase enough to save him before his viruses kill him if he's unlucky. When Curly gets coughed on, he's getting a high dose of around 1,000,000, and he has no antibodies at the start, so he's heading in the direction of Larry but he might be OK if he's lucky. Moe's probably going to be OK, because he got vaccinated and thus has the antibodies ready already.

        Looking at the Marx Brothers: Groucho looks like he'll be fine, because his antibodies were ready when he first got infected so his virus count isn't multiplying quickly at all. Chico is in the best position of anybody, because Groucho is going to give him a mere 1000 copies of the virus and his excellent immune system is more than ready to handle it. But Harpo also has a much better chance, because he's also getting the smaller dose from Groucho, which means his immune response is much more likely to catch up.

        As I said above, I made up the numbers, and it's definitely simplified from what the pros would be using, but I'm reasonably certain the concepts behind it are closer to reality. And when you look at this version, you see that Larry and Groucho's decisions made a big difference to other people: Larry was willing to get Curly into trouble because he feared the shot more than he feared Covid, while Groucho protected both his brothers including the one who didn't get the shot.

        TL;DR: Just get your shots already, you'll help both you and anybody you spend time with.

        --
        The inverse of "I told you so" is "Nobody could have predicted"
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @08:14PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @08:14PM (#1201615)

          Looking at the Stooges: Larry might be in trouble. Mostly depends on whether he's a high risk candidate, for a risk which is still not very well defined. He might simply be asymptomatic or end up spending a weekend in bed. Curly may have already been infected and been asymptomatic. You can't really say unless he's been tested for previous exposure. Moe is probably going to be OK. But then again, he might have always been OK for the same reasons as Curly.

          Looking at the Marx Brothers: Groucho might be fine. Unless he gets a serious case of pneumonia and puts off going to the hospital because he feels he's safe having been vaccinated. If Chico has so many antibodies, while not being infected, then there might be something seriously going wrong with his immune system. Harpo is as vulnerable as anyone else. Both Groucho and Chico can be shedding virus and not even know it. It's not simply a question of "how much" virus you're exposed to. It's where the virus enters the body, how quickly it takes hold, how quickly your body ramps up to fight it. If the vaccine "eliminated" all chance of Groucho and Chico getting infected then we've protected Harpo. But it doesn't work that way. Harpo will only ever be safe once the world has been eradicated of covid-19. If that's even possible, given that people who have had it can still get it and pass it on. Actually, I think Harpo is the most screwed of all (he should at least get vaccinated).

          I like your analogy in principle, but the world is not so black and white.

        • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday December 02, @10:59PM

          by krishnoid (1156) on Thursday December 02, @10:59PM (#1201676)

          I suspect it's less an issue with an inaccurate mental data model, than that of us statistically being in an entirely different situation [youtu.be]. Of course, the long COVID symptoms [cdc.gov] aren't helping.

    • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday December 02, @05:20AM

      by krishnoid (1156) on Thursday December 02, @05:20AM (#1201386)

      Maybe [nbcnews.com].

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by darkfeline on Thursday December 02, @05:45AM

      by darkfeline (1030) on Thursday December 02, @05:45AM (#1201391) Homepage

      Said every oppressive regime other. Do you think any regime ever said, those people are fine, friendly, reasonable people, let's lock them up? No, they always paint them as monsters. Those people are evil, dumb, they mean us harm and we must lock them up, we must fight them.

      Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.

      --
      Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @08:49AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @08:49AM (#1201413)

      Yeah, it's called abortion. You also get bodily autonomy... except for drugs and vaccines.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:43PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:43PM (#1201559)

        They're not infringing on your rights, just regulating them. Same as the 2nd Amendment vs the GCA, NFA, and so on. In tech, it's the DMCA.

    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:07PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:07PM (#1201485)

      "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by dalek on Thursday December 02, @03:45AM (10 children)

    by dalek (15489) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @03:45AM (#1201353) Journal

    Right now, 15 GOP senators are threatening to force a government shutdown to try to block the vaccine mandate. It's grandstanding and they can only delay passage of a continuing resolution, but it's still ridiculous. Here's a copy of the letter to Chuck Schumer [senate.gov], who is the Senate majority leader.

    Let's name the 15 Republicans who have signed this letter: Roger Marshall (KS), Marsha Blackburn (TN), Ted Cruz (TX), Steve Daines (MT), Jim Inhofe (OK), Ron Johnson (WI), Mike Lee (UT), Cynthia Lummis (WY), Rick Scott (FL), Tommy Tuberville (AL), Rand Paul (KY), Marco Rubio (FL), James Lankford (OK), James Risch (ID), and Mike Braun (IN). There are other Republican senators who oppose the mandate, but these 15 signed a letter to Chuck Schumer threatening a government shutdown over the vaccine mandate. Let's quote some text from the letter:

    According to a Kaiser Family Foundation poll, seven in ten unvaccinated workers (9% of all adults) would quit their job if required to get the vaccine.

    Let's be clear, refusing to get vaccinated is a choice. Quitting your job is a choice, not something that you are compelled to do. Their position is that a vaccine requirement is so unconscionable that it warrants quitting.

    If the vaccine mandate is allowed to be fully implemented, the result could be catastrophic. Many Americans who have decided to not comply with the vaccine mandate will not suddenly accept coercion. That is their God given right. Any attempt to blame this impending catastrophe on those choosing not to take the jab would be severely misplaced.

    In other words, the letter is saying that the people quitting their jobs over the mandate aren't responsible for the effects of them choosing to quit their jobs. This from a party that says people should take personal responsibility for their actions. Apparently that's not the case when it involves something the GOP doesn't like.

    To that end, please be advised (many weeks in advance of the current spending period, which ends on December 3, 2021) that we will not support—and will use all means at our disposal to oppose—legislation that funds or in any way enables the enforcement of President Biden’s employer vaccine mandate. Nor will we vote for or support cloture on any continuing resolution in the absence of language protecting Americans from this action.

    Does this mean they will also try to block increasing the debt ceiling? How far are they willing to take this brinkmanship?

    The American people have gone through enough. Please do not become an accessory to such a willful act of barbarism.

    Apparently a mandate intended to promote public health and end a pandemic that has killed over 700,000 Americans is barbarism. Prolonging the pandemic with a virus that is many orders of magnitude more deadly than any of the vaccines apparently is less barbaric.

    To be sure, we agree that countless Americans have benefitted from the protection offered by the COVID-19 vaccines.

    Even the signatories of the letter acknowledge the benefits from vaccination, yet they still claim that a vaccine mandate is barbarism.

    This is an abdication of responsibility and absolute lunacy. Shame on these 15 Republican senators.

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    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:00AM (9 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:00AM (#1201358)

      Apparently a mandate intended to promote public health and end a pandemic

      is really intended to mislead the gullible while grabbing more powers, same as every single preceding one.

      Have your bosses fulfill one single promise first. Have them do it before making more. The charade they, and you, are doing now, is a perfect replica of Soviet leaders promising communism to their captive population.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by dalek on Thursday December 02, @04:13AM (8 children)

        by dalek (15489) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @04:13AM (#1201366) Journal

        What power is being grabbed here? Do tell. The judge in this case relied on the recent court decision blocking the vaccine and testing mandate for businesses that have over 100 employees. Let's look at that, because the judge explicitly cited that decision.

        The OSH Act of 1970 [osha.gov] authorized the creation of OSHA. Congress gave authority to the executive branch to regulate workplace health and safety. It includes the following text:

        (1)The Secretary shall provide, without regard to the requirements of chapter 5, title 5, Unites States Code, for an emergency temporary standard to take immediate effect upon publication in the Federal Register if he determines --

        (A) that employees are exposed to grave danger from exposure to substances or agents determined to be toxic or physically harmful or from new hazards, and

        (B)that such emergency standard is necessary to protect employees from such danger.

        (2) Such standard shall be effective until superseded by a standard promulgated in accordance with the procedures prescribed in paragraph (3) of this subsection.

        (3) Upon publication of such standard in the Federal Register the Secretary shall commence a proceeding in accordance with section 6 (b) of this Act, and the standard as published shall also serve as a proposed rule for the proceeding. The Secretary shall promulgate a standard under this paragraph no later than six months after publication of the emergency standard as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection.

        The OSHA vaccine mandate [osha.gov] is an emergency temporary standard. Congress granted this authority to the executive branch. How is this grabbing power when Congress has already given the power to the executive branch?

        The mandates have been designed to comply with existing laws that Congress passed. How does that constitute grabbing power when that power has already been given to the executive branch by Congress?

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        EXTERMINATE
        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:39AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:39AM (#1201371)

          You're trying to understand and reason with the (very) irrational "woke" "cancel culture". Ever see "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"??

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:47AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:47AM (#1201437)
            Modded troll because comment lacks any substantive argument, but has lots of vague flamebaitey terms.
        • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:43AM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:43AM (#1201374)

          When you can drag out your "emergency" indefinitely, some judge has to remind you that Constitution does not come with an "Off" switch.

          All this song and dance started with promises of "two weeks". It is nearing two damn years with no end in sight. The "2025" and "forever" have since moved from "conspiracy theories" to EU politicians' mouth noises and, in some places, official documents.
          If this is "the new normal", then you do not get emergency powers; if this is "emergency", then the incompetent "experts" need be court-martialed.

          • (Score: 5, Informative) by dalek on Thursday December 02, @05:03AM (3 children)

            by dalek (15489) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @05:03AM (#1201378) Journal

            The OSH Act of 1970 explicitly imposes a six month limit on emergency standards, after which the normal process for OSHA to make rules must be followed. In fact, I quoted that exact text from the law. This particular emergency standard is most certainly not indefinite.

            The "two weeks" comment you reference is in regard to the previous administration, which then had to walk back those statements anyway. This particular emergency standard was put in place because of the surge of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths due to the Delta variant. Many of the actions taken in the spring of 2020 such as stay at home orders have long since rescinded because the situation has changed and there are more effective ways to deal with COVID.

            The "two weeks" of staying at home that the previous administration initially encouraged and the orders issued by state governors were because there weren't better tools available at the time to slow the spread of COVID. We now have the tools to end this pandemic, which are vaccines, antivirals, and much better therapeutics. Ironically enough, fighting against vaccination prolongs the very emergency you are complaining is going on too long.

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            EXTERMINATE
            • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:13AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:13AM (#1201383)

              We now have the tools to end this pandemic, which are vaccines, antivirals, and much better therapeutics.

              We have your lying arse repeating same old stale lies. HOW the vaccines that do NOTHING to stop the infection, can "end this pandemic"?
              https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-28/getting-vaccinated-doesn-t-stop-people-from-spreading-delta [bloomberg.com]
              And now we have "omicron" which is already promised to disregard the vaccines totally.

              If you have antivirals, then by all means produce and distribute them. Not having impunity to violate people's bodies should not be stopping you from that, should it?

              • (Score: 5, Informative) by dalek on Thursday December 02, @05:32AM (1 child)

                by dalek (15489) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @05:32AM (#1201389) Journal

                I've debunked this particular nonsense many other times already.

                Vaccines do reduce the chance of being infected by Delta, particularly after receiving a booster dose. If fewer people have COVID, that means there are fewer people who can spread COVID to others.

                People who are vaccinated and have breakthrough infections are also much less likely to require hospitalization. Even if COVID were to spread at exactly the same rate as if nobody had been vaccinated (which isn't true, as I noted), this would still significantly reduce the amount of hospitalizations. The burden on hospitals has caused shortages in staff and resources. This has led to things like postponing elective surgeries. It means people who need hospital care to treat other conditions may not be able to receive the medically necessary care that they need. Again, even if vaccines didn't reduce the spread of COVID, they would still reduce the burden on hospitals.

                Again, when people who refuse to be vaccinated take up lots of hospital resources, it makes it harder for other people to receive medical treatment they need. Why should you have the right to risk inflicting that harm on other people, just because you refuse to get a vaccine that is both safe and effective?

                It is widely known that vaccines reduce the risk of serious disease. It is also widely known that hospitals have needed to postpone elective surgeries for serious conditions due to the spread of Delta (source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/22/health/covid-hospitals-elective-surgeries.html [nytimes.com]). You know what you're saying is disingenuous. Why do you continue to spread this nonsense?

                Maybe what we really need is to develop a vaccine that protects people against bullshit.

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                • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday December 02, @06:41PM

                  by Thexalon (636) on Thursday December 02, @06:41PM (#1201583)

                  Maybe what we really need is to develop a vaccine that protects people against bullshit.

                  We have one: It's called either "critical thinking" or less formally a "bullshit detection kit". Like medical vaccines, it's not 100% effective 100% of the time, but it definitely improves the odds. And also like medical vaccines, there are kids who are too young to get it administered because they haven't developed to the point of being able to handle it, and some who are unable to get it at any point and have to rely on their peers and herd immunity.

                  And the same people that are trying to stop others from vaccinating against disease are also trying to stop others from gaining even partial immunity to bullshit. Which leads to the conclusion that odds are pretty good that at least some of them are bullshit artists.

                  For example, your use of critical thinking caused you to actually look at the applicable laws before making pronouncements about it. Whereas the AC you were arguing with plainly did not bother, possibly because they were mindlessly repeating something they heard somewhere, or possibly because they were knowingly spewing bullshit. Unfortunately, in this day and age, it's hard to sort out the dupes versus the liars.

                  --
                  The inverse of "I told you so" is "Nobody could have predicted"
        • (Score: 2) by stormreaver on Thursday December 02, @04:44PM

          by stormreaver (5101) on Thursday December 02, @04:44PM (#1201548)

          OSHA's authority is to regulate workplace safety, not environmental safety (and no, "the workplace environment" is not the same thing). Covid is not a workplace hazard, it is an environmental hazard that exist everywhere. That is WAY outside of OSHA's authority.

  • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 02, @03:48AM (79 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @03:48AM (#1201354) Homepage Journal

    You can't order Americans to do shit, just cause it makes you feel good.

    Of course, the obverse of that coin is, if you want to get 20 vaxxes this year, we won't stand in your way!

    --
    Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @03:54AM (25 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @03:54AM (#1201356)

      This is not cancer, it's not even AIDS, this is an infectious disease that spread through the breath, touch, and air.

      Your clowning affects others, your neighbors, your colleagues, your friends, your family, your dogs and cats, maybe even your cockroach.

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 02, @04:01AM (18 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @04:01AM (#1201359) Homepage Journal

        Yep. Infectious disease. You might expect that the populations of poor countries that can't afford the vax would all have dropped dead by now. Oddly, though, the highest casualty rates have been in wealthier countries, where good health care is available, and the vax is available.

        Things that make you go "hmmmmmmm".

        --
        Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:08AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:08AM (#1201363)

          Deaths are down because a handful of heros began rotating organite. In one region they messed up and put an organite pyramid on their solstice list. However, once rotation was initiated the expected benefit occurred. Rotation is the KEY!

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:39AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:39AM (#1201372)

          ... the highest casualty rates have been in wealthier countries ...

          Because these wealthy countries at least had the capacity to monitor and report on their epidemic casualties. You think India had suffered no less? You think Africa suffered no less? Because they were not reported on CNN and FoxNews?

          You claimed to be sailor. Didn't you learn anything from your overseas assignments? Or did you only get a cushy postings in the North America and the Western Europe?

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by Mykl on Thursday December 02, @05:08AM (11 children)

          by Mykl (1112) on Thursday December 02, @05:08AM (#1201380)

          the highest casualty rates have been in wealthier countries

          i.e. those countries that are: a) better at counting things like this; and b) honest. China's numbers are down to zero, because their government has told us that is the case.

          On a not-really-related note, Malaysia's Tourism Minister has very helpfully informed us that there are no gay people in his country [cnn.com].

          I love how you are happy to accept Government statements when they support your preconceived notions.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:30AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:30AM (#1201388)

            If you need government statements to see your pandemic, then you have a pandemic of government statements.

          • (Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 02, @09:42AM (8 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @09:42AM (#1201419) Homepage Journal

            African nations see almost annual outbreaks of highly transmissable diseases, with extremely high fatality rates, which they manage to control, and keep from spreading.

            Yet, I hear you saying "Dem Darkies ain't smart enuf to count their dead." Where else do we hear that recurring theme? "Dem Darkies ain't smart enuf to get a voter ID card!"

            --
            Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:16AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:16AM (#1201431)

              Fucking rural American racist motherfucker Runaway. You are too stupid to count? Too stupid to think? Just stupid enough to vote for Trump, or Tom Cotton.

            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:53AM (6 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:53AM (#1201439)

              Smart has nothing to do with voter ID. Restrictive locations and hours that favor white collar workers with disposable income, personal vehicles to travel to the few open spots, and plenty of flex time or work from home are next to impossible to meet for someone working two blue collar jobs to make ends meet.

              Fuck your noise. You're just spouting the propaganda to make a LITER disenfranchisement scheme sound reasonable on the face of it--to people with the privilege to be unaware of what working class life is really like.

              When you're only open Monday to Friday, 10 AM to 2 PM, and closed for an hour lunch, qnd only in the wealthy white suburbs, you cannot in good conscience call that being accessible to all citizens. Take your racist trash somewhere else. Your lies are stale and tired.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:55AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:55AM (#1201440)

                *LITERAL disenfranchisement scheme.

                Fuck autocorrect.

              • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:30PM (4 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:30PM (#1201446)

                Keep repeating the talking points. In effect, "It's racissss because we say so!" I would ask you for numbers, outlining how many black people were denied the vote because of any specific law. But, I'm sure that CNN has a list of fake numbers they've published.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:44PM (3 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:44PM (#1201450)

                  Talking points?

                  How about you REPLY TO MY COMMENT instead of deflecting entirely.

                  I'm sure there's someone to fit your stereotype, but it's not me. I don't need someone else's talking points (and I have zero idea what CNN or any other cable network is saying). I have a brain of my own, and I've been making individually reasoned arguments of my own for decades. If you can't be bothered to engage with the comment, go to Facebook or whatever other echo chamber you frequent.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:54PM (2 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:54PM (#1201453)

                    There's nothing to reply to. All you have is a bare-ass accusation that Republicans don't want black people to vote.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:57PM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:57PM (#1201455)

                      You just made up that, because not a word of what you said is in my post.

                      Are you feeling okay? Like, you're actually imagining things that have demonstrably not happened.

                      I'm worried about you.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:32PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:32PM (#1201556)

                        APK, I mean runaway1956, has had mental health issues for yeaaaars.

          • (Score: 2) by wisnoskij on Saturday December 04, @06:55PM

            by wisnoskij (5149) <reversethis-{moc ... ksonsiwnohtanoj}> on Saturday December 04, @06:55PM (#1202166)

            So you are saying that every single poor country is both stupid and dishonest?

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Thursday December 02, @05:08AM (3 children)

          by Opportunist (5545) on Thursday December 02, @05:08AM (#1201381)

          You really think that in a country where there are barely any reliable birth certificates or bureaucracy that deals with counting the living they give a fuck why people croak and become dead people?

          You're living in a rather sheltered country where they actually care, and can know, what you die from. That's not necessarily the case in countries where you might have heard about but never seen a MD. People die there and get buried without ever finding out why they died.

          • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:44AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:44AM (#1201390)

            Dude, people either die or not. If they do not die in any unusual number, your rant is totally meaningless. When a centenarian dies, they do not need a QR-code to be let into heaven or hell. Be it "pneumonia" written on their death certificate as in 2019, or the newfangled "COVID" as fashion demands in 2021, or no certificate at all - dead is dead, and living is living.

            • (Score: 3, Touché) by Opportunist on Thursday December 02, @05:50AM

              by Opportunist (5545) on Thursday December 02, @05:50AM (#1201393)

              Are you a politician? You just spent 3 lines talking but I have no idea what you want to say. What the hell is your argument?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @03:04AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @03:04AM (#1201724)

              Should I get a QR code in case I die before my 100th birthday so I'm not stuck in limbo forever?

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by TheRaven on Thursday December 02, @01:58PM (5 children)

        by TheRaven (270) on Thursday December 02, @01:58PM (#1201478) Journal
        I agree but a vaccine mandate is the wrong way of pushing this. The correct thing to do in the USA is make businesses liable for any heathcare costs (including compensation in case of a death) for any customers or employees who caught COVID from an unvaccinated employee. Then let the market sort it out. Businesses can do whatever they want with respect to vaccine policies, they just can't pass on the costs as externalities.
        --
        sudo mod me up
        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @03:59PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @03:59PM (#1201535)

          Good luck proving who infected who when people are incentivized not to cooperate.

        • (Score: 2) by Sourcery42 on Thursday December 02, @05:49PM (3 children)

          by Sourcery42 (6400) on Thursday December 02, @05:49PM (#1201563)

          I like the approach of charging the non-vaccinated extra for health insurance. I think Delta airlines did this, and maybe some other big companies by now.

          That way it isn't a mandate, but still gives people some incentive to feed into their decision making process.

          • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday December 02, @06:49PM (2 children)

            by Thexalon (636) on Thursday December 02, @06:49PM (#1201584)

            Which sounds great, until you realize that your current or prospective insurance company now needs to be able to know your vaccination status somehow. And that's hard to do in an environment where people are already creating fake vaccination cards to get into concerts and as such would probably have no issue using said fake vaccination cards to save $100 a month on health insurance. And they can't really verify from the pharmacy without running into HIPAA and ACA prohibitions against digging into preexisting conditions.

            It's an old story of a relatively small minority of idiots / selfish jerks ruining things for everybody else.

            --
            The inverse of "I told you so" is "Nobody could have predicted"
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:55AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:55AM (#1201722)

              You sign a release when you get your health insurance that allows them to contact your medical providers and the state to verify certain health information already and you sign releases with your providers that they can share the information with your insurance. Also they can verify prexisting conditions, they just cannot discriminate based on them, which doesn't really matter since vaccination status for any vaccine isn't a medical condition under the ACA or administrative rules.

              • (Score: 2) by legont on Friday December 03, @05:03AM

                by legont (4179) on Friday December 03, @05:03AM (#1201742)

                In Russia an antivaxxer just bribes $100 to the nurse and she shots the can instead of him. About 10% of vaccinated are like this.
                How do they know? Well, when an antivaxxer ends up in a hospital, the treatment for Covid is actually quite different for vaccinated and unvaccinated folks. Like live or die different. So Russians developed a test to check if a patient was actually vaccinated to make sure she is not lying.
                That was all in the name of saving lives, but lately they introduced harsh punishments for such people. They do have to recover costs somehow, right?

                --
                "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by dalek on Thursday December 02, @03:57AM (27 children)

      by dalek (15489) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @03:57AM (#1201357) Journal

      Actually, there is case law supporting vaccine mandates, namely Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905). Here's a good summary of the history behind the Jacobson case and the precedent it set: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/09/08/vaccine-mandate-strong-supreme-court-precedent-510280 [politico.com].

      Considering all the precedent that is being tossed aside, this ruling looks a lot more like the type of judicial activism that conservatives complain about... apparently unless it involves overturning policy they dislike.

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      EXTERMINATE
      • (Score: 0, Redundant) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 02, @04:05AM (3 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @04:05AM (#1201361) Homepage Journal

        Judicial activism? I don't see it. What I see, are a lot of people hyped up over the Wuhan flu, demanding that everyone get vaxxed, so they can feel better.

        Why are the poorest countries in Africa not all falling over dead? https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/33844/COVID-19-Mortality-in-Rich-and-Poor-Countries-A-Tale-of-Two-Pandemics.pdf?sequence=5&isAllowed=y [worldbank.org]

        --
        Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:46AM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:46AM (#1201375)

          That paper even explains why its own methods are dishonest: it's a data quality issue due to vastly more testing in richer countries. They explicitly decide to not use the excess deaths measure that others use to work around that, claiming that also has data quality issues but not anywhere near as bad as the numbers they are using.

          • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:05AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:05AM (#1201379)

            When you need "data quality" to NOTICE your "deadly pandemic", and STILL cannot understand why people do not believe you...

            In real epidemics, people SEE those excess deaths. They do NOT need a government propaganda machine to tell them horror stories day and night.
            Actually, in all real epidemics, governments were trying to CALM the people; the fearmongering in this one was the first sign of something very fishy, right then in spring 2020.

            • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:49AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:49AM (#1201720)

              Ah, we're back to this. It's not happening, because there aren't dead bodies lying outside of my doorstep.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:08AM (21 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @04:08AM (#1201362)

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell [wikipedia.org]
        More of nice doubleplusgood case law for you to support.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 02, @04:13AM (20 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @04:13AM (#1201364) Homepage Journal

          Adolf Hitler closely modeled his Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring on Laughlin's "Model Law". The Third Reich held Laughlin in such regard that they arranged for him to receive an honorary doctorate from Heidelberg University in 1936. At the Subsequent Nuremberg trials after World War II, counsel for SS functionary Otto Hofmann explicitly cited Holmes's opinion in Buck v. Bell in his defense.[24]

          You know who else Hitler admired? Margaret Sanger! And, she admired Adolf as well!

          --
          Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
          • (Score: 5, Informative) by dalek on Thursday December 02, @04:30AM (3 children)

            by dalek (15489) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @04:30AM (#1201370) Journal

            You're hardly the first to compare vaccine mandates to Nazi Germany. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/20/maine-heidi-sampson-nazi-vaccine/ [washingtonpost.com], https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/01/anchorage-mayor-bronson-star-of-david/ [washingtonpost.com], and https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/11/16/jeffrey-dinowitz-antisemitic-protest-vaccine/ [washingtonpost.com] for other similarly offensive comparisons.

            From one of those articles:

            In her speech, Sampson suggested the mandate for health-care workers was a gambit to test an “experimental” vaccine, despite the existing scientific studies that show the safety and efficacy of the vaccines and ongoing oversight by the Food and Drug Administration. The state lawmaker claimed that Gov. Janet Mills’s vaccine mandate amounted to a violation of the Nuremberg Code. She also compared vaccine mandates to the Tuskegee syphilis study that subjected Black men to medical research under false pretenses. Sampson also falsely said that those implementing vaccine mandates could be executed.

            Data clearly show that the three COVID vaccines authorized for use in the US are both safe and effective. How, exactly, does requiring vaccination equate to forced sterilization and other cruel medical experiments?

            Your comparison of mandating safe and effective vaccines to historical atrocities is a false equivalency, asinine, and offensive.

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            EXTERMINATE
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by legont on Thursday December 02, @07:45AM

              by legont (4179) on Thursday December 02, @07:45AM (#1201409)

              Data clearly show that the three COVID vaccines authorized for use in the US are both safe and effective. How, exactly, does requiring vaccination equate to forced sterilization and other cruel medical experiments?

              Why did they force me to sign "I am responsible for anything" agreement before the vaccination? It actually said that the vaccine was not approved and I am taking it at my own risk.

              This is a rhetorical question as I am off course know why. The risk is too high for any business and even the government to take so they force the agreement upon the people.

              --
              "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:27PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @12:27PM (#1201444)

              I don't disagree with you, but please recall that forced sterilization continues to this day in the United States [washingtonpost.com].

              This isn't the country I was sold as a child; this is some horrific 1984 shit.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:11PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:11PM (#1201677)

              You're hardly the first to compare vaccine mandates to Nazi Germany.

              We see you! [youtube.com]

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:51AM (9 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:51AM (#1201394)

            That admiration is exactly why she was one of the board members and chief fundraisers of the American Council Against Nazi Propaganda. That's what support looks like, right?

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 02, @12:37PM (8 children)

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @12:37PM (#1201448) Homepage Journal

              https://thecatholictruth.org/margaret-sanger-and-eugenics/ [thecatholictruth.org]

              Sanger was no more anti-Nazi than Goering was.

              --
              Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:14PM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:14PM (#1201490)

                You believe the Catholic Church?

                --
                No Communion - No Collection

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:53PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @05:53PM (#1201566)

                  I trust the Catholic Church at least as much as I trust any political party. I trust a priest at least as much as I trust any politician. You might ask Sleepy Catholic Joe whether he trusts the Catholic Church.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @08:03PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @08:03PM (#1201611)

                    You trusted John Geoghan?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @03:12AM (4 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @03:12AM (#1201726)

                She was for eugenics not based on race through birth control and abortion (but explicitly spoke against euthanasia of the already born). While Catholics might think that is equivalent to industrialized murder of races or ethnicities you don't like regardless of any other attribute of theirs ala the Nazis, most of the world is not that far gone. Do you have any other "Sanger liked Nazis" arguments other than false equivocation?

                • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday December 03, @04:53AM (3 children)

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 03, @04:53AM (#1201738) Homepage Journal

                  She was for eugenics not based on race

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_asNhzXq72w [youtube.com]

                  We have a loser here. Margaret Sanger was most certainly invested in eliminating the Black, or Negro race.

                  "We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population..."
                  -- Letter to Dr. Clarence J. Gamble, December 10, 1939, p. 2

                  “I accepted an invitation to talk to the women's branch of the Ku Klux Klan... I was escorted to the platform, was introduced, and began to speak...In the end, through simple illustrations I believed I had accomplished my purpose. A dozen invitations to speak to similar groups were proffered.”
                  -- Margaret Sanger, An Autobiography, published in 1938, p. 366

                  "... these two words [birth control] sum up our whole philosophy... It means the release and cultivation of the better elements in our society, and the gradual suppression, elimination and eventual extinction, of defective stocks -- those human weeds which threaten the blooming of the finest flowers of American civilization."
                  -- Margaret Sanger, "High Lights in the History of Birth Control," Oct 1923.

                  “All of our problems are the result of overbreeding among the working class... Knowledge of birth control is essentially moral. Its general, though prudent, practice must lead to a higher individuality and ultimately to a cleaner race.”
                  -- Margaret Sanger, "Morality and Birth Control," Feb-Mar 1918.

                  I'll grant that Sanger didn't lead KKK parades, nor did she visit the death camps in Germany to personally kill a few Jews. She probably didn't address black people to their faces as "nigger" or "Boy". But the bitch was far more racist than you can imagine. She often talked about the "weeds of society". To her, that meant Blacks, Slovaks, Asians, Native Americans, probably Mediteranean Euros, possibly even Germans. Let's remember that just a few generations ago, Germans weren't "white". Even in the 1950s, Slovaks weren't "white", nor were Italians. Sanger dreamed of a White World, just like Hitler did. A White World has room for Englishmen, Frenchmen, the Nordic peoples, and very little else.

                  --
                  Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 04, @01:03AM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 04, @01:03AM (#1202018)

                    A White World has room for Englishmen, Frenchmen, the Nordic peoples, and very little else.

                    The "I'm not technically white so I can't technically be a cissy racist" defense.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 04, @05:13AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 04, @05:13AM (#1202051)

                      Wrong again. If a defense were needed, it would look more like, "You ignorant fools who can't tell an Englishman from a Slovak are in no position to judge anyone."

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 04, @05:02AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 04, @05:02AM (#1202049)

                    That's a lot of words when you could have just said "no."

                    P.S. there is a pretty major hint in that last quote.

          • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Thursday December 02, @06:02AM (2 children)

            by mhajicek (51) on Thursday December 02, @06:02AM (#1201399)

            You like ice cream?

            You know who else liked ice cream?

            Adolf Hitler!

            --
            The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:20AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @11:20AM (#1201433)

            Runaway admired Hitler, and Tucker Carlson, and Andrew Brietbarf, and Ann Coulter. Not to mention Hilary Clinton, and his future First Lady, Sarah Huckabee Something-Something. Poor Runaway.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:26PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:26PM (#1201494)

              and himself in the mirror.

          • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday December 02, @06:52PM

            by Thexalon (636) on Thursday December 02, @06:52PM (#1201585)

            You know who else Hitler admired? Margaret Sanger! And, she admired Adolf as well!

            And by that same reasoning, anybody who enjoys listening to "Ride of the Valkyries" is a Nazi sympathizer.

            --
            The inverse of "I told you so" is "Nobody could have predicted"
      • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Thursday December 02, @05:57AM

        by darkfeline (1030) on Thursday December 02, @05:57AM (#1201398) Homepage

        I suppose you missed the part about the ruling being specifically about the $5 fine being reasonable? If we're being honest, applying this decision to the current times would mean that states would be able to assess a $150 dollar fine (the equivalent scaled for inflation) for violating vaccine requirements. I'm pretty sure all of the many vaccine mandates flying around now are not merely $150 fines.

        --
        Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by mhajicek on Thursday December 02, @05:55AM

      by mhajicek (51) on Thursday December 02, @05:55AM (#1201396)

      Our government kills people for recreational drugs...

      --
      The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
    • (Score: 2) by epitaxial on Thursday December 02, @01:13PM

      by epitaxial (3165) on Thursday December 02, @01:13PM (#1201461)

      You're ordered to do things dozens of times per day from the federal to the local podunk town level. You're ordered to pay federal taxes, the state orders you to drive a certain speed on roads, the mom and pop store orders you to pay local sales tax...

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:32PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02, @02:32PM (#1201495)

      Have you told that to the Republicans?

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday December 02, @06:14PM (21 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @06:14PM (#1201576) Journal

      You can't order Americans to do shit, just cause it makes you feel good.

      There are clear reasons. Not just because it makes someone feel good.

      We can and do order children to have several different vaccinations in order to enter the public school system.

      We can and do require people to drive the speed limit. To pay taxes. To have their vehicle registered. To not rob banks. And quite a range of other things.

      And there are actual reasons for these requirements!

      --
      A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 02, @06:26PM (20 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @06:26PM (#1201579) Homepage Journal

        Unfortunately, we can't order people to think for themselves.

        --
        Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday December 02, @08:05PM (8 children)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @08:05PM (#1201613) Journal

          You can think anything you want.

          When you live in a society with other human beings, those others, as a group, may want to enforce certain codes, laws, conventions or even social norms. It has been this way for thousands of years.

          I can understand that some people will find it infuriating that they cannot go out in public without any clothing, and cannot just rape and pillage as they see fit. It is terrible that other humans would like to force horrible speed limits on your freedom of driving at dangerous speeds.

          Oh, the humanity!

          --
          A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 02, @10:29PM (7 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @10:29PM (#1201660) Homepage Journal

            *yawn*

            I grew up learning all the social norms I need, thank you. When you start changing the norms, the rules, and the laws, I'll just opt out. I don't feel any need to spend the rest of my life appeasing the spoiled children who take themselves far too seriously, and failed to learn real social norms.

            --
            Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday December 02, @10:38PM (6 children)

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @10:38PM (#1201665) Journal

              Not spreading disease to others is what most people consider a social norm. Maybe not where you live.

              --
              A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 02, @10:45PM (5 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 02, @10:45PM (#1201670) Homepage Journal

                This conversation is getting spread all over the place - but I mentioned half measures somewhere today.

                If the health department had declared a real quarantine early on, I would have participated, willingly. All the stupid shit we have done instead of quarantining have been nothing more than feel-good nonsense.

                I'm not here to make scared people feel good.

                --
                Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
                • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:03AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:03AM (#1201712)

                  Lies lies and more lies. You were calling it no big deal and equating lockdowns and masks with tyranny. Very common conservative behavior, pretend after the fact that they weren't selfish, stupid, and or evil. I consider you a mix of all three, but ymmv.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @05:14AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @05:14AM (#1201744)

                    When did you stop abusing your children?

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:53AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, @02:53AM (#1201721)

                  *eyeball roll*

                • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 03, @03:36PM (1 child)

                  by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 03, @03:36PM (#1201821) Journal

                  I'm not here to make scared people feel good.

                  I'm not scared. I am vaccinated. Wear a mask. And practice social distancing.

                  I have little to fear.

                  Other people might engage in foolish behavior (amatuer skydiving without a backup parachute) and are not scared.

                  --
                  A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 03, @03:38PM (10 children)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 03, @03:38PM (#1201823) Journal

          we can't order people to think for themselves.

          Has it ever occurred to you that people who:
          1. get vaccinated
          2. wear masks
          3. social distance

          ARE actually THINKING for themselves?

          It is the people who refuse to do the above that are following cult like irrational behavior of lemmings without "thinking" marching towards the cliff.

          --
          A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday December 03, @03:44PM (4 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 03, @03:44PM (#1201827) Homepage Journal

            It has occurred to me, yes. They soak in the fear mongering of the mainstream media, they think about the shit that scares them, and ultimately, run out to get the vax.

            Now, you can extend the same courtesy to those who decline the vax. They've heard all the hyperbole, and decided that it's mostly hyperbole.

            --
            Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday December 06, @03:32PM (3 children)

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 06, @03:32PM (#1202509) Journal

              They soak in the fear

              Bzzzzt. They take reasonable precautions. Sort like how people who look both ways before crossing the street "soak in the fear"

              Now, you can extend the same courtesy to those who decline the vax.

              Just like I would to people who walk out into a busy street without looking both ways.

              Getting vaxed is just one of many common sense things.

              --
              A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 06, @04:11PM (2 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 06, @04:11PM (#1202521) Homepage Journal

                Ahhh, you got your weekend supply of Kool Aid? All topped up now, and ready to repeat those talking points. Happy Monday!!

                --
                Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
                • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday December 06, @06:45PM (1 child)

                  by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 06, @06:45PM (#1202548) Journal

                  We could talk about tornadoes. I assume Arkansas gets those.

                  People soaked in fear listen to the tornado warnings and take shelter underground. Those who can think for themselves and do not submit to "government control" ignore the warnings and go about their business as usual.

                  This is exactly how I see your support of the anti vax ignorance. You accuse the people who take precautions of not thinking, and of being fearful. Neither are true. I am less concerned about covid now that I am vaxxed than I was before. So is every vaxxed person I've spoken to. Which says how out of touch you are with people are are actually vaccinated. The two accusations you use "fear" and "not thinking for themselves" are in fact the exact opposite of the truth.

                  --
                  A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 06, @09:26PM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 06, @09:26PM (#1202587) Homepage Journal

                    Tornadoes? We have a tornado shelter. I've never sheltered in it. Spiders and snakes live in it most of the time, and they don't like being kicked out into a storm.

                    --
                    Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
          • (Score: 2) by wisnoskij on Saturday December 04, @07:18PM (4 children)

            by wisnoskij (5149) <reversethis-{moc ... ksonsiwnohtanoj}> on Saturday December 04, @07:18PM (#1202173)

            Back when the government was saying, go on your vacations, go travel to china, it is perfectly safe. Were you telling all your friends to stay home and buckle down for a epidemic?
            Back when the CDC was telling you to not wear a mask, that they did not work, were you making fun of people who wore masks on social media, or were you wearing one?

            Because, while it might be circumstantial evidence, in my experience the exact same people who were publicly vocal about "those crazy people wearing face diapers" just became the people talking about "anti-maskers" a week later. And the people who said they would never take the "trump-vaccine" just became the ones calling for the forced vaccines.

            While it is entirely possible you are a reasonable, sane, and intelligent person; perhaps it is just a bad coincidence that your philosophy has landed you right in the midst of a bunch of irrational nutjobs. You cannot expect people to take you seriously. I don't know if their is any solution, but you will just be lumped in with these people if you shares the same current beliefs even if your side does deserved to be argued.

            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday December 06, @03:38PM (3 children)

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 06, @03:38PM (#1202512) Journal

              I first ordered face masks in quantity in January 2020. I was never making fun of people wearing them. I can't make sense of what you are trying to say.

              Back when the government TRUMP was saying to travel to China, I would have been hesitant to do so because evidence was that COVID-19 has started in China and was spreading. I wouldn't and wouldn't have recommended anyone to travel there.

              I was never someone saying I wouldn't take a "trump vaccine". In fact, I had never heard that term before reading your post. If anything, Trump followers are the very people are are the most anti-vax. I've posted two different independent surveys from reputable pollsters in two separate journal articles on SN which show that, more than any other single factor, politics is the biggest determiner by far of whether someone will get vaccinated. And guess what: it is not the Trump supporters who are vaccine supporters. So you seem to have it backwards.

              --
              A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
              • (Score: 2) by wisnoskij on Monday December 06, @04:21PM (1 child)

                by wisnoskij (5149) <reversethis-{moc ... ksonsiwnohtanoj}> on Monday December 06, @04:21PM (#1202523)

                I am saying that people that push for more lockdowns, vaccinations, and similar things are often seen by others are cultish and brainwashed because of some very vocal people who currently share those views who didn't back when it most made sense to.

                I am saying that unfortunately, even if you never parroted the CDC, world health organization, CNN, or social media you will still be lumped in with the crazies as they are just so vocal.

                For your second half. I am not talking about who takes or does not take the vaccine, I am talking about who just parrots blindly. Back when Biden went on recorded every other day denigrating the vaccine and its safety. I could get behind that, I could say yes, we do need transparency, accountability, and proof of safety. But when he just did a 180 and changed his stance the second the election was over, anyone who just followed him is clearly just brainwashed.

                Back when the government TRUMP was saying to travel to China

                Did we really need to get political? Come on man, have some sense. Sure, I absolutely believe that Trump was not hard enough on keeping the virus out of North America back in early 2019. But when he finally got around to trying to close borders and lockdown the countries he was fighting Democrats to do this, he was absolutely a month or so ahead of the curve on this is still 2 months behind sane people and probably over 6 months behind informed and knowledgeable people. But from day one, Trump has been pushing lockdown, border closers, and vaccine. He celebrated vaccines in office, he called for people to take them out of office.

                Harris and Biden could of said, "we disagree on a lot of things, but I agree with him that vaccines are safe and effective" Or they could of just said "vaccines are safe and effective" but instead we got:
                "If and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests that need to be done, and the trials that are needed to be done." - Aug. 6, 2020, Joe Biden
                And similar, anything Trump says about the vaccine is a lie, and it will probably be unsafe. And at best we get that if doctors and scientists can absolutely prove its efficacy than maybe we could overlook that Trump endorsed it.

                • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday December 06, @06:53PM

                  by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 06, @06:53PM (#1202549) Journal

                  Did we really need to get political?

                  I would rather not. But it seems to be political whether I like it or not. Politics is by far the strongest predictor of vaccination status. It is just a fact.

                  Politics also seems to correlate with mask wearing. And belief it quite a few conspiracy theories about covid. So it is political regardless of what you and I may want. I would prefer people made decisions based on science, experts, medicine, understanding of how contageous diseases work, etc. The advice of doctors, even your own personal local doctor, and epidemologists, etc.

                  No matter what Biden said Aug 6, 2020, about 7 BILLION doses of vaccine have now been given globally. About 42% of the global population is fully vaccinated. That is a very solid statistical base at this point to know what problems it might cause and in what percentages of the population.

                  --
                  A large Starlink satellite constellation will be a smashing success!
              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 06, @04:25PM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 06, @04:25PM (#1202524) Homepage Journal

                Waitaminit. TRUMP was encouraging people to travel to China? Citations needed.

                --
                Taking bets: When does Biden's approval rating reach 15%?
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