A lawyer at the Supreme Court of India, Mary Mitzy, asks in the Deccan Chronicle about who controls the right to actually speak in court during online trials: Specifically she asks, who controls the mute button in online court cases? Currently court does not meet in person and takes up only matters it deems urgent. The court is using a proprietary system for video conferencing, which would raise additional questions on SN, yet proprietary or not the matter of muting affects not only the outcomes of the trials but also the flow of justice.
Indian courts follow the system of an open court hearing. Everyone can watch the proceedings. But the Vidyo app has a limit in terms of the number of participants who can be admitted and the Supreme Court, too, came out with a notification restricting the advocates from sharing the link for appearance. It has affected mostly young advocates keen to learn court craft from watching the courts function.
But there's been worse happening. Many a time, during hearing a case, the advocate was logged out at the relevant moment and was unable to log in. This resulted in the case being decided in their absence. It is with great difficulty that one gets one's case listed for hearing and if it is decided in one's absence then one's entire effort becomes futile. On top of that, there is the pain of humiliation before one's client.
[...] Now, the cases heard by the Supreme Court have anywhere between two and 30 parties. Who decides who will be unmuted? A control room that has no idea about the proceedings of a case? Advocates keep sending requests to be unmated [sic] or for the senior advocate to be allowed to speak. But only if they are lucky will their request be granted before the case is over. Or else, you just count yourself to be on the "unlucky list".
[N.B. - This is from the opinion section of the site and pertains to the court system in India.]
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 10 2021, @05:58PM (2 children)
Every court there is a kangaroo court. They just do it for show while they let rapists and killers walk. Too bad the UK couldn't finish the job of house training these savages. You gotta fight to win!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 10 2021, @09:06PM (1 child)
Stick your head up your arse and fight for air, you racist twit.
(Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 10 2021, @09:32PM
So, the facts are racist to you? Because of corruption the place is a true shithole. Look how they treat women and minorities. Antebellum USA could not have been worse. How can anybody take their courts seriously? Without transparency there can be no justice. And their system is extremely opaque, has to be, because it is run by crooks. Fuck them.. You too if you support that shit.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Sunday January 10 2021, @06:18PM (5 children)
The only reasonable option would be that the judge controls it. And the opposing parties should not be muted, only witnesses when it is not their turn.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Sunday January 10 2021, @06:19PM
That or the poor clerk that operates the camera?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 10 2021, @08:56PM (3 children)
This is really the only option and accurately reflects the way an in-person court works, at least in the U.S. The presiding judge controls who is permitted to speak and who isn't. In general it's the judge (or judges for courts with multiple judges), opposing counsels, and the witness if one is on the stand and being examined. Maybe a bailiff when a witness is being sworn in.
IANAL but I've watched a lot of Law & Order. :)
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday January 10 2021, @09:08PM (2 children)
Yeah, well, Perry Mason on a bad day beats Law and Order on a good day! Everybody in the courtroom (except the bad guy) only speaks to make Perry look good!
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday January 10 2021, @10:20PM
Ugh! American courts should definitely emulate Boston Legal, that's where Shatner made himself.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Monday January 11 2021, @06:10AM
Yeah, well, Perry Mason on a bad day beats Law and Order on a good day! Everybody in the courtroom (except the bad guy) only speaks to make Perry look good.
That appears to be where the column's author is coming from. Her perspective in the second paragraph of the quote in the summary is disturbingly myopic.
I presume that unscheduled Vista10 updates and reboots are a frequent cause of such incidents. Chalk another one up to Windows Total Cost of Ownership.
However, one would have hope for a little sympathy for the clients who lost their cases only because of a ICT fumble by the lawyesr, assuming technical problems. However, if some clerk is playing favorites with who can speak and when they can speak, then that is even worse.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: -1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 10 2021, @07:25PM (1 child)
Google, Amazon, Twitter, Apple, CNN, and all the other Internitwit monopolies control the online mute button. Look what they've done to Trump for the last 4 years... They put a gag order on the real story of corruption going on in DC.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 10 2021, @08:25PM
They put a gag order on the real story of corruption going on in DC.
Oh, they did much better than that. They successfully made anybody and everybody who complains about corruption in DC look like a total maniac. It's the same gag that the "Social Justice Warriors" (they are poorly disguised right wingers) used against the legitimate civil rights movement, and has everybody screaming for more censorship. We can't even show Green Acres without getting sued. But really, mass media has been doing this since its inception. It is a tool of the empire.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by legont on Sunday January 10 2021, @08:26PM (19 children)
According to some folks the owners of communication tech are controlling who is muted and who is not. They muted the president so can mute judges way easier. It's private, right? Your honor just fuck off.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 10 2021, @09:30PM
So saith Twitter.
(Score: 1, Troll) by legont on Sunday January 10 2021, @10:21PM (17 children)
It's fascinating to watch how liberals are building fascist state right in front of our eyes.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Reziac on Monday January 11 2021, @02:17AM
And how reliably you can find posts pointing this out way down at -1, the nearest SN can get to censorship.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 11 2021, @03:00AM (5 children)
How fascinating it is they are building it only in from of your eyes.
Maybe that's a sign there's something exceptional with your eyes?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday January 12 2021, @12:20AM (4 children)
None so blind as those who will not see...
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:10AM (3 children)
The worst part is that too many people and their politicians are mistaking social control media for a communications medium.
The social control media sites feed on and create strife and conflict in order to elicit emotion-driven responses with increased frequency so as to further drive interaction, or as they call it "engagement". We're in the process of creating several generations physiologically incapable of rational thought and only able to respond viscerally to the last, loudest stimulation. That's as bad or worse situation as all the political meddling they are engaged in. By itself that psychological crippling of a generation or two will be enough to ensure we cannot get out of the trap created.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday January 12 2021, @02:45PM (2 children)
Sadly, you are spot on, as is the Quillette article.
Unfortunately, "social control media" has become THE communications media, to where there's no longer any separating the two... a situation egged on by actual communication media becoming slanted, then biased, then lockstepped, so we're forced to rely on other methods to escape that echo chamber. Which, as you say, encourages and even enforces exactly the worst responses from the least critical people.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by canopic jug on Wednesday January 13 2021, @05:28AM (1 child)
Social control media has become a replacement for communications, yes, but since it filters, reorders, and reprioritizes messages between accounts it is not the actual communication any more but a vehicle for propaganda and control left in its place. Actual communication went out even before they stopped the chronological timelines. Keep in mind that propaganda channels are most successful when they stick to relaying accurate messages, but filter, reorder, and reprioritize the messages. Two prime examples of that are RT [rt.com] and Sputnik News [sputniknews.com], which are meticulously accurate, just exceptionally careful in how they filter, reorder, and reprioritize the material they report on. Despite mastery of the activity, they are relative amateurs compared to how the social control media networks do it both in scope and scale.
The resulting inability to communicate results in a direct threat against democracy and many other models of governance. Social control media has effectively isolated everyone [hollywoodreporter.com] into their own, unique bubbles thus preventing or even sabotaging the discourse necessary for a democracy to remain.
Tying this back to the original article, selective control of the mute button, whether willfully or by accident, will drastically affect how the sides of a court case are perceived.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday January 13 2021, @05:44AM
Got nothing to add but a mod point, but yeah, I've noticed much the same -- regardless of one's perspective or preferences.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Monday January 11 2021, @06:03AM (9 children)
It's fascinating to watch how liberals are building fascist state right in front of our eyes.
It's both branches, "left" and "right", of the oligarchs' party cooperating together to build it in front of your eyes, with your cheering help.
No matter how much folks on the "left" and the "right" would like to conflate the two issues, illegal threats and incitements to illegal actions are not free speech. Both branches of the oligarch's party really like the confusion because it allows them to build the fascist state they have been dreaming of for so long by softening up the public to favor massive, political censorship. Online censorship is one of the biggest steps enabling that goal, and censorship becomes sought after by the public itself by winding up both factions against free speech, freedom of the press, and the first amendment in general. Unfortunately that's where we are now. However, again, as much as the oligarchs would like people to conflate the two, illegal threats and incitements are not free speech. Don't confuse the two.
Trump should have been gone from Twitter ages ago for many reasons. Skipping the incitment to illegal activities, illegal threats, and general lying, he was in the highest office of the land and had access to a massive communications infrastructure. Had everything gone through his press office, there would not be a single thing that Jack Dorsey could have done about any of his communiques, no matter how outrageous. It is very transparent how these social control media companies and their investors are now taking their oh-so-courageous, principled stands at precisely the moment that it's too late for courage or principles to matter. By using Jack Dorsey's private service, he was and remains beholden to Jack and is only tolerated as long has it is both profitable and politically expedient. Now that Trump is going out, either on his feet through the front door, or after a drawn out trial through a trap door, Dorsey (and the other social control media barons) see which side their bread is buttered on, and now that there is no risk for doing so, they are now sucking up to the incoming administration.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by legont on Monday January 11 2021, @12:16PM (8 children)
It's always amassing to watch how people build a fascist prison for themselves. I've done it reading history books, but I've never imagined actually leaving in times when the best are doing it. Are you seriously believe twitter should censor you? Forget your hate for a second. Think, please.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Monday January 11 2021, @12:36PM (7 children)
No. Twitter should not be censoring anyone. Re-read the above.
However, Twitter has maneuvered, with the help of wannabe fascists on the "left" and the "right", into a position where not only can they censor but they are expected to by large numbers of dumbasses. That situations does not absolve the guilt of a sitting politician for having failed to see that coming yet continued to use Twitter in place of official channels of communication. As much as Twitter is in the wrong, much blame still belongs on the politician(s) involved in feeding it.
That said, neither crimes nor incitement to commit crimes are protected by the first ammendment. So please stop trying to conflate criminal acts with the first amendment. That only winds up the whackos on both the "left" and the "right" against our rights.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by legont on Monday January 11 2021, @08:16PM (6 children)
I don't really care that much who the president is or even about free speech in this context. What we clearly see is techno-sphere taking over everything. That's fascism of a new order of magnitude predicted by so many people. It's here. Wake up. We will be very very sorry very very soon, but it will be too late.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:48AM (5 children)
"It" has been here for a while and people did nothing when the line was crossed as social control media ceased chronological timelines and went to message sorting based on secret algorithms. The public also did nothing about the scandals centered around Cambridge Analytica. Nor did they do anything over the decade and a half where Zuckerberg has repeatedly lied, and gotten caught lying, about his company's actions. I think there may be some kind of trend visisble there...
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday January 12 2021, @11:15AM (1 child)
Yes, all of it were there, but Twitter spitting in the face of 90 million people following Tramp's account is something new and very personal. Personal for 90 millions. Do they really believe there will be no violence after that? How many nuts are among those 90 millions? They are personally offended and united by the same idea.
We joked about pitchforks many times; I am afraid they are here.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Tuesday January 12 2021, @11:42AM
Most of them are in Facebook anyway, and that is what much of the control is about. They amd everyone they know will get placating timelines and forget by the end of the month. If those in control of Facebook still want a more violent insurrection, that'll happen despite what the incoming administration might or might not do. If those in control of Facebook want people to back off and pay attention to something else, then that will happen instead, regardless of what either administration might or might not do.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday January 12 2021, @02:49PM (2 children)
What were We The People supposed to do about all that? Tarring and feathering the deserving is now discouraged, and our Elected Leaders have assured us that they have everything well in hand and will pass appropriate laws and prosecute as needed.
Except the laws and prosecution seem to have come down on We The People, not on the culprits.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:50PM (1 child)
As long as it is one dollar, one vote, the representatives are going to serve those providing the campaign contributions and other bribes. Lobbying is basically legalized bribery. However, neither the D or R branches of the oligarchs' party are willing to go that route. Rather they fight reform with every means possible. Remember, Lawrence Lessig [csmonitor.com]? He once ran for president [newyorker.com] but was forced to drop out [newyorker.com] after the DNC changed the debate rules twice just to keep him out of the debates. His only goal was to get campaign finance reform into the debate. The D and R branches of the oligarchs' party are that afraid of rocking the boat that they'll lie and cheat to avoid letting the topic get any coverage.
The first step there is revoking the verdict on the Citizens United v the Federal Election Commission [wikipedia.org] and preventing corporations from unrestricted, anonymous campagn funding. Corporate donations and even lobbying need to be banned, just to get even a chance at fixing the problems you point out.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:26PM
Can't disagree about the money-in-politics problem. But so long as it's possible to come out wealthier than you went in, this will continue to be an issue. My own (D) state senator gets the most lobbying money of any congresscritter, by a wide margin; what makes nothin' and nowhere Montana that important, and to whom??
Citizens United may have been correct on principle, but it was flamingly obvious that it would be abused by all and sundry, and here we are today.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 10 2021, @10:52PM (1 child)
hi, i'm chip from mumbai. how may i mute your trial?
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 10 2021, @11:53PM
For great justice take off every vid
(Score: 4, Touché) by ledow on Monday January 11 2021, @08:14AM
If only... if only there were ways that, when things disconnect, people could use some device to call the court, and present their case by audio at least, via an international telecommunications network of some kind.
First, so you know they're still there, second so they can be talked through a process to try to reconnect and third so that, in extremis, they could just talk to the court that way.
If only almost every such court had the facility to... take phone calls.