from the job-of-the-future-solar-panel-washer dept.
Most new wind and solar projects will be cheaper than coal, report finds:
Almost two-thirds of wind and solar projects built globally last year will be able to generate cheaper electricity than even the world's cheapest new coal plants, according to a report from the International Renewable Energy Agency (Irena).
The agency found that the falling cost of new windfarms and solar panels meant 62% of new renewable energy projects could undercut the cost of up to 800 gigawatts (GW) worth of coal plants, or almost enough to supply the UK's electricity needs 10 times over.
Solar power costs fell by 16% last year, according to the report, while the cost of onshore wind dropped 13% and offshore wind by 9%.
In less than a decade the cost of large-scale solar power has fallen by more than 85% while onshore wind has fallen almost 56% and offshore wind has declined by almost 48%. Francesco La Camera, Irena's director general, said the agency's latest research proved the world was "far beyond the tipping point of coal".
He said: "Today renewables are the cheapest source of power. Renewables present countries tied to coal with an economically attractive phase-out agenda that ensures they meet growing energy demand, while saving costs, adding jobs, boosting growth and meeting climate ambition."
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 24 2021, @09:25PM (44 children)
Factor in the damage to the environment and to people coal causes and that number would be even better, I wager.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by fakefuck39 on Thursday June 24 2021, @09:34PM (29 children)
which is awesome, but it's also like saying "a kia optima is cheaper per mile than a truck." coal is for base power, solar and wind is for random power. while solar may be cheaper than coal, it does not replace coal. gas or hydro or nuclear can replace coal - not solar or wind, so the entire comparison is a strawman. the real question is, why aren't they comparing other base load alternatives to coal? oh, because that completely reverses their damn point.
strawmen be strawin'
yeah, coal is bad. yeah, we should pay more money per watt and replace it with nuclear or something else like using solar to pump a lake uphill. getting rid of coal makes energy More expensive, not less. and I'm fully willing to pay that. but when someone simply lies to make their point, their point and everything else they say is now garbage.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Tork on Thursday June 24 2021, @09:43PM (15 children)
Heh.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Monday June 28 2021, @03:58AM (14 children)
and the autistic incel just kept saying heh heh heh heh egh egh, until he wiped his cum off his stomach, smelled it, and turned off the cartoon porn while getting that shit on his keyboard.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday June 28 2021, @03:44PM (13 children)
And going by your own rules: Your point and everything you said here is just garbage. Well done, sir.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Monday June 28 2021, @08:00PM (12 children)
You're not garbage - I don't get entertained by garbage. You're a loser and an incel here for my entertainment.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday June 28 2021, @08:35PM (11 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Monday June 28 2021, @11:21PM (10 children)
Whether you think I lie is an opinion that's up to your autistic brain. You being an autistic social reject incel is the opinion of the world, and the biology of the incurable disease within your defective physical body. I don't lie in any post, but again, you are free to believe what you want. The defective brain disease you have is what provides you with the conspiracy theory that someone who wants attention would go to an unknown forum with under a hundred users. I'm here to laugh at people like you, as that entertains me. Nothing more, nothing less. Enjoy your porn.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Tuesday June 29 2021, @02:47AM (9 children)
Heh. Nope. Fact.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Tuesday June 29 2021, @04:55AM (8 children)
lol 'Fact?' who the fuck talks like that.
be honest, how many fedoras do you own, m'lady?
(Score: 2) by Tork on Tuesday June 29 2021, @05:21AM (7 children)
If only you weren't so full of shit you might have a shot at attacking my insecurities... provided you manage to discover one. 🤡
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Tuesday June 29 2021, @08:12PM (6 children)
yes, but have you considered that autism is an incurable brain disease in your genetically defective body?
(Score: 2) by Tork on Tuesday June 29 2021, @09:34PM (5 children)
Hard to get my goat when you don't know what my insecurities are, huh. ;) Try lying s'more, you might find something by accident!
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Tuesday June 29 2021, @11:02PM (4 children)
I'm not here to know your insecurities. Whether you're secure or not about your diagnosed or undiagnosed autism, is irrelevant to me. I'm here to make fun of you because things you say are how an incel with autism talks. It is entertaining to me. That is the only purpose of any interaction I have with you.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Tuesday June 29 2021, @11:15PM (3 children)
Hah. Soooo untrue, you needed that to upset me. Fail. ;)
No doubt using the trial-by-error approach to find some little crack in my armor endlessly entertaining for you. Watching you be wrong over and over again is fun for me... so it's mutual! I'm happy to be of service!!
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Wednesday June 30 2021, @03:36AM (2 children)
too much to bother to read during a short sit-down piss, but i'm sure it's something an autist would say.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Wednesday June 30 2021, @06:03AM (1 child)
Aaaand ya just keep on lying. 😂
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:05PM
yes yes, I'm lying about taking a piss while reading your reply. Got any more conspiracy theories? I'm sure you do. Conspiracies everywhere, patterns everywhere, signs of autism everywhere. Take your pills buddy. There's a reason they're prescribed to you.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 24 2021, @09:46PM
There is no lying you fake fucking clown.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 24 2021, @10:36PM (5 children)
Very well said. The real battle is to find cheap grid batteries made from abundant materials. The "gravity battery" seems an ideal solution but it is hard to find enough sites to place a reservoir.
(Score: 4, Informative) by PinkyGigglebrain on Thursday June 24 2021, @11:07PM
Another option for storing off peak excess energy without using batteries is to just push train cars filled with rocks uphill, same principle as pumping the water uphill but is more flexible in terms of where it can be set up. Sadly I don't have the link to the article I read handy.
Some other non-battery alternatives are flywheels and compressing air into underground salt domes. They all work with varying degrees of efficiency and each could be used in the environment best suited for it. We need to be looking at all of them.
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 2) by Pav on Friday June 25 2021, @04:10AM
My country (Australia) is the flattest and driest continent, and yet with hydro alone we could have enough hyrdo storage to handle 100% baseload should we want to. We're converting the Snowwy River Scheme into a hydro reservoir for the most populous parts of the country, and we're experimenting with mine pits (that usually need to have groundwater pumped out of them anyway) and our huge southern ocean cliffs for additional saltwater hydro storage.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday June 25 2021, @02:58PM
The grid based batteries approach implies that you're talking about large plants. When you get to large plants, there are already answers. One of them is to use solar-thermal and store the energy in molten salt until you use it to generate electricity.
The house based solar cells, however, don't work well with many of the large-scale storage mechanisms. They could probably be made to work with a pressurized air storage, but I don't know with what efficiency. Most of the other non-"electric battery" approaches, however, don't scale down well. If you've got a water tower, you could use that, but most places find that impractical.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Saturday June 26 2021, @01:38AM (1 child)
Gravity battery has a specific meaning - the Daniell cell. Please do not use "gravity battery" to refer to devices that raise weights to store energy.
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Monday June 28 2021, @05:33AM
or, you know, you are completely full of crap, incredibly stupid, and will remain forever stupid because you think you know more than people who know more - hence never learning anything.
it does have specific meaning. the one the op described.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @12:22AM (3 children)
Yeah, discard the externalities and it's cheaper. Include them and it becomes way more expensive.
The price for energy storage goes down fast, the same way the price for solar panels did over the last 20 years.
In 20 years time, they'll be cheap enough for the Average Joe to buffer a week worth of consumption for his household.
Even more, there'll be a technical solution available to Average Joe to be a player in grid balancing - when the demand is high, he can sell some of his buffer to a profit. When Joe Farmer gets the idea, he can mount solar panels above his fences and get a sideline income without sacrificing a lot of his land.
Do you expect to get a pass on the account of your stupidity or should I consider your "getting rid of coal makes energy More expensive" a lie?
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday June 25 2021, @03:04PM (1 child)
One can hope that the price for energy storage will continue to drop, and it may, but there's no particular reason to believe that it will, at least as far as electric batteries are concerned.
If the graphene-based batteries work out, then it will probably continue to drop. If we remain dependent on Lithium, then that's likely not the case. The cheap sources of Lithium are already being worked out, and new sources will need to be found, or new techniques for extracting it. Of course, new approaches may be developed, but the schedule for "new discoveries" isn't knowable in advance.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @07:45PM
I find it silly that we are working so hard on Lithium for non-mobile energy storage.
Weight doesn't mean nearly as much for energy storage that can just sit on the floor all day every day.
I would gladly pay half as much for something that weighs 4 times as much in the realm of whole house storage.
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Monday June 28 2021, @05:45AM
I don't see an "externalities" line item on my electric bill. and this is what we're talking about in the article and discussion. how much the electricity costs, in dollars. just like when we compare car, we compare the car cost, in dollars, and do not include the cost of gas when comparing car prices. if you are not able to comprehend this basic social construct, you may want to get checked out for autism.
>should I consider your "getting rid of coal makes energy More expensive" a lie?
you can consider and think whatever you want. no one cares.
(Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Friday June 25 2021, @11:37AM
Certainly an important point. However, the solutions are already there. One solution currently under build-out is power-to-gas. The round-trip efficiency is around 50% (according to wikipedia). A safe upper bound for the true cost of renewable electricity is therefore 2x nominal cost. As not all electricity needs to be converted, the factor is lower in practice and will come down further in the future. Adding to this further efficiency gains (production and operation) of renewables, it is now time to go full steam renewable, IMO.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @02:43PM
Yes. Hydro. Hydro can be augmented with wind and solar. Actually, wind and solar *MULTIPLIES* the power you can from hydro. Hydro is designed currently to provide steady power. But extra turbines can be added and suddenly hydro can do a multiple, depending on outflow limits that do not cause flooding.
Since solar and wind can provide enough power to allow the flow to be reduced allowing the reservoir to recharge, you have a perfect multiplier for intermittent energy source.
So now you see how solar and wind and hydro can provide a lot more baseload than otherwise would be possible with just hydro? If the area can hit 20-40% hydro baseload, you can go past 100% when augmenting with wind and solar.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday June 24 2021, @09:58PM (9 children)
You may wager whatever you like. The ecological damage in third world countries due to mining may very well outweigh the benefits of reducing coal consumption. Not to mention the child labor and slave labor used in the mining.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 24 2021, @11:45PM (3 children)
This has been studied and while there are some cons to it it's a fraction of what coal is like.
> Not to mention the child labor and slave labor used in the mining.
Slave labor is a problem to be solved but not a problem with solar technology. If solar panels didn't work unless slave flesh was ground up into the materials used to make them then you might have a point.
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 24 2021, @11:56PM (2 children)
https://news.yahoo.com/us-blocks-solar-components-china-131325523.html [yahoo.com]
If the low price of the solar panel depends on slave labor, banning it revises the cost analysis.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @12:29AM
OK, time to plug in the legendary automation into the American capitalism then. It will create plenty jobs for the horde of college graduates.
Point: the lowest cost does not implicitly require child slavery, other solutions may exist if you aren't a sociopath CEO in the hunt for a quick buck.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @02:51AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @12:24AM (4 children)
Take your red herring on the fish market, solar panels aren't the cause for child slavery.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday June 25 2021, @01:02AM (3 children)
Nope. Never said it was. It's the greed of corporations that cause child labor and slave labor. It's the greed of the customers that provides the profits that drive that child labor and slave labor. And, it sure sounds to me like you're trying to rationalize your part in that huge fucking mess. You want what you want, and you want it NOW, at the lowest price possible.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @03:11AM
But you did put in the context of "solar panels are no kosher because child labor", needed a push to throw in "is true for anywhere the greed of corporations gets involved".
Projecting much? Don't strain yourself, living like this is no fun [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @07:48PM (1 child)
I'm confused, is "child labor is used for mining" and argument against moving away from coal?
Or are you saying that coal mines don't use child labor only those OTHER mines do.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday June 25 2021, @07:54PM
Child labor was a serious problem from the earliest days of industrialization. In the past ~300 years, laws have been passed in the industrialized "first world" to eliminate both child labor and slave labor.
Today, mining takes place in more third-world countries, where such laws don't exist. But, environmentalists and human rights advocates pretend not to notice those details. We must make the changes that the environmentalists want, and if a few million children and slaves are exploited along the way, well, so be it.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 5, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 24 2021, @10:07PM (1 child)
This was only thirteen effing years ago! It sounds like a chapter in the Grapes of Wrath or something!
Hundreds of Workers Who Cleaned Up the Country’s Worst Coal Ash Spill Are Now Sick and Dying [nrdc.org]
Not an inexpensive incident!
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @12:24AM
No, you don't understand: externalities are out there, just somewhere nebulous and not here; I don't know why you're fussing unnecessarily about them.
(Score: 3, Informative) by PinkyGigglebrain on Thursday June 24 2021, @10:53PM (1 child)
I think the reason they don't factor those in is because it makes Solar look a bit less "green" than they want to portray it as. [kubyenergy.ca]
Solar is still better than coal by a long shot in the long term, but solar still has a a cost to the environment that doesn't get talked about.
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @12:32AM
You mean TANSTAAFL is not SciFi? Who would have thought?
(Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday June 24 2021, @09:29PM
https://soylentnews.org/submit.pl?op=viewsub&subid=49470&title=White-Hot+Blocks+as+Renewable+Energy+Storage%3F [soylentnews.org]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Friday June 25 2021, @01:19AM (1 child)
Just because wind and solar are cheaper in one location doesn't mean they are cheaper everywhere. Florida generates more electricity from solar than Maine or NY because it makes more sense there.
Running a headline that says "New Wind and Solar Projects Will be Cheaper" is almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy, because if those projects weren't located in the most suitable areas they likely wouldn't have gotten off the ground or even been proposed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @07:50PM
I'm confused, wouldn't all the "best" places be taken and thus the expectation is that new projects would be more expensive (per Watt) since they have less suitable locations that the ones that are already up and running?
(Score: 5, Funny) by MIRV888 on Friday June 25 2021, @02:31AM
Coal is the fuel Jesus wanted us to use and all these new fangled power generating technologies are sponsored by Satan and teh gheys.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @04:06AM
From tfa, offshore wind by 9%.
A friend is working at a startup looking at much larger offshore turbines, with a novel configuration. If they win (still need funding), their design could easily knock another 10-20% off the cost of offshore. It floats rather than being on pilings, so it is suitable for deep water.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 25 2021, @05:11PM
t-hehehe just trade one overlord for another that is a monstrosity composef of a coal mine and a burner for a ginormous field of solar panels and/or wind turbines. both don't belong to you even tho in the second case you have access to the same source.
it's like paying a town clown to operate a giant fridge where you rent space for your food stuff (and cold beer).
if you can afford a fridge and a money-wasted-inseçure-in-3years-albeit-opensource-based phone then you should really (!) look into solar panels and microinverters.
(skipping one generation of iPhony would give you a 600 watt system, that's two panels plus microinverter. ~860 kWh/year. assume everybody with a iPhone (60 million people?) would skip one generation ... 860 kWh x 60'000'000 = 51'600'000'000 kWh ... 51.6TerraWhours/year (lol?)