from the language-talking-about-language-defining-language dept.
New Study Explains Why Human Languages Share a Lot of The Same Grammar:
There are around 7,000 human languages that we know of worldwide, and while they're all unique, they're also more similar than you might have realized – particularly when it comes to the grammar, or the way that sentences can be formed and used.
[...] "We propose that in the evolution of language, talking about language was a way of forming some of the first complex language structures and that from these structures new types of grammar could develop," says linguist Stef Spronck, from the University of Helsinki in Finland.
In many languages, reported (or indirect) speech – so sentences indirectly communicating what someone has said, rather than someone actually saying it – can give rise to new meanings that fit with certain grammatical categories.
[...] This extension of meaning, found in certain languages where reported speech is used, can be matched with grammatical constructions like aspect (how something extends over time), modality (discussing possible situations), and topic (what is being talked about), the researchers contend.
So it seems our collective understanding of grammar may have emerged out of the way we talk about other people. Using a sample of 100 languages, the researchers found that reported speech is found on all major continents, occurring independently of language families or areas of contact.
"Humans talk about other people's thoughts and statements all the time, from the moment we first learn to speak," says Spronck.
[...] The researchers suggest that reported speech is an important source for certain core parts of grammar, as well as the meaning of some verbs. It would, in fact, have been one of the first examples of complex language: talking about language.
Journal Reference:
Stef Spronck, Daniela Casartelli. In a Manner of Speaking: How Reported Speech May Have Shaped Grammar, Frontiers in Communication (DOI: 10.3389/fcomm.2021.624486)
(Score: 2, Disagree) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @06:39AM (4 children)
Indo-European, Altaic, and that other one. And then there is Basque and Sami. No idea why.
(Score: 3, Touché) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:07AM (3 children)
And Altaic certainly isn't a language family, that dropped out of favour decades back. If it has any merit, then it's most likely to be part of Uralic-Altaic.
Which of course would also contain saami, those being Uralic.
Yup, definitely trolling, it would be hard to be that wrong accidentally.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0, Troll) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:15AM (2 children)
Just love it when I can get FatPhil to pretend to be an intellectual! Always so informative, and entertaining! n
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:11AM (1 child)
Meanwhile, you pretend full time.
(Score: 1, Troll) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:17AM
As John Wayne used to say, no brag, just fact. Prove me wrong!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Opportunist on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:01AM
When you talk about someone, you tell me more about yourself than about them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:06AM
So...what they are saying is that
back-bitingspinning about the words and actions of others is a major cause of grammatical homogeneity.--
In other news: Nouns verb objects adverbally.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bradley13 on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:07AM (18 children)
Language is (obviously) supported by brain function. As language turned out to promote survival, those who brains were best wired to support it will have done better. As brains developed, language usage could expand.
Our brains are very flexible, but even so, their plasticity is not unlimited. It seems likely that the most fundamental grammatical concepts are supported directly in the wetware. Concepts of subject, object, indirect object, time, number, location - those fundamentals that every language can express. Not coincidentally, those are the most important things we need to express about the real world. "Hey, Og, yesterday there was a saber-toothed tiger in that cave". More useful language --> more brain development --> more useful language. Feedback.
As to TFA: "Talking about talking" seems unlikely to have been a core driver in language development. Even in their first example, the meaning is obviously ambiguous. It looks more like language is not well-adapted to this application.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:19AM (6 children)
Racist theory of language if I have ever seen one. Not surprising that it comes from the lesser Bradley11.2. Brains? Language is a free-floating semantic net of associations, having no necessary connection to the thing connated, or the symbol implicated. Perhaps you should stick to objects in object orientated languages, with all the ontological baggage implied.
(Score: 2) by bradley13 on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:23AM (3 children)
Huh? Who peed in your cornflakes?
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:39AM
Google translate gives this:
which I say is as foreign to me as it is to you. But mostly, I have a colleague just like you, but in Music, Band, even though we no longer have a band. Thought Cruz was pulling the smart moves in the last before this presidential election. Expertise does not extend as far as experts think. Saying this from experience.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:13AM (1 child)
He pees in his own cornflakes. That's just the way he likes them.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:20AM
Is that what racists do? I had no idea! But, now that I think about it, it does make sense.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @11:47AM (1 child)
100% true. If our brains were hard-wired for correct grammar, how do you explain the grammatical flaws in Ebonics?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @09:01PM
What grammatical flaws? It's a different dialect with different grammar rules.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:19AM (10 children)
Consider reporting on a remote wounded animal that was heard yelping and could be worth hunting for supper, and reporting on a remote tribal member who was trash talking one of the interlocutors; these concepts really don't seem that different to me. To be honest, it's probably more useful to develop the former before the latter, as you can slag off Ugmilla all you like once you've got a full belly.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 1, Troll) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:42AM (4 children)
FatPhil, the cunning linguist, hunting for dinner. Just, wow.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:46AM (3 children)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @07:50AM (2 children)
Also, you get to be a monolingual English type! Not even Gael? And certainly you do not spracke the lingua where you dwell? How imperial colonial of you! At least your taste in beer goes beyond Bitters and Pale Ales.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:16AM (1 child)
And, you're the monothemal Greek type. All you can do is bellyache, unless you're bellyaching about your bellyache.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:22AM
Did you perhaps mean "monothermal"? Yes, I do attempt to maintain a consistent core tempurature. If find if you do not, you might be mistaken for dead.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by inertnet on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:29AM (4 children)
Being able to talk about something you can't show or point to, must have also been the start of religion.
By the way, even honey bees have the ability to tell the hive where they have discovered lots of food, by performing specific dances [wikipedia.org]. I'm sure that many other animals must have their own forms of communicating such valuable knowledge among each other.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 21 2021, @12:37PM (2 children)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 3, Insightful) by HiThere on Tuesday September 21 2021, @01:50PM (1 child)
Wrong. It's also got a direction. And I think near-far is somewhat quantized. Perhaps a few other things...I don't think we can claim that we totally understand it. I suspect there's some way of telling whether it's about pollen, nectar, or both...though I suppose that could be by samples.
Still, it *is* quite limited, you just overstated your case.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 21 2021, @05:10PM
And I said "2 or 3".
If you think 3 isn't 3, then that's your problem.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday September 21 2021, @05:17PM
Well there's good and bad in all things! It probably was also the start of math. Consider the number zero, for example.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:08AM (2 children)
Alright, everyone, read you Saussure, General Course in Linguistics [wikipedia.org], when you are done, we can talk. Here is the whole thing [archive.org] thanks to Archive.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 24 2021, @08:59AM (1 child)
Fuck Saussure. And fuck you. And fuck anyone who thinks like you. There are more than enough pretentious asses in the world, we don't need you.
(Score: 1, Troll) by aristarchus on Friday September 24 2021, @10:11AM
Thank you for your critique, AC! I will take your objections into account in my next work on the origins of language. Just one request, however, could you tell my your actual name, and institutional affiliation, so that I might cite you for any changes in my position? Best regards,
aristarchus of Samos,
School of Alexandria,
Department of Philosophy and Astronomy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:13AM (12 children)
No reference to Noam Chompsky, one of the pioneers in the area of Universal Grammar? Sad. Or, bad science.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @08:55AM (7 children)
Universal grammar is pretty esoteric these days given that language in Brazil that allegedly doesn't fit the theory.
Something they reference in your first year textbooks and if you quote him in an essay, your lecturer will know you're hunting footnote references.
(Score: 1, Troll) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @09:06AM (6 children)
Well, go Portagie yourself, then!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @09:29AM (5 children)
What happened aristarchus?
You used to be cool but now you're just a troll.
The indigenous language is Pirahã - not that you care.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @10:09AM
Well, you're half right.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @11:11AM (3 children)
You mean, the stupid wins? Only because they do not understand what is happening? A khallow victory, if you will.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @09:45PM (2 children)
You should stop insulting people in every reply, maybe then people would engage your information more. Right now you're starting off by creating adversaries, but if that is your point then whatever, troll on. I would appreciate if you flushed out your arguments more than just "you're wrong read this book." At least a little more info please!
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 21 2021, @10:23PM (1 child)
Wow, that is really good advice! Do you think it would actually work?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 24 2021, @08:57AM
You pretentious ass, you have no knowledge to share, just the soundbytes given to you by CNN.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21 2021, @09:37AM (1 child)
> Universal Grammar
No, Noam's point in this is was his conjecture of language processing ability and the languages that appeared from it being a consequence of brain structure...
OP's subject is nothing new. Chomsky kicked his idea out in 1957.
It's undergrad Linguistics. (I'm a former Linguistics undergrad)
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday September 21 2021, @01:59PM
As stated that's a nearly vacuous assertion and trivially true. Chomsky's point was a lot deeper than that, he made some assertions about what the brain structure had to be. He went far beyond the evidence, and was not reliably correct.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by HiThere on Tuesday September 21 2021, @01:55PM (1 child)
He was *a* pioneer, but he got a lot demonstrably wrong. Too much theorizing and not enough field work. And he wasn't the first to theorize a universal language, you can even find that theory in the Bible.
That said, he *was* influential in the development of modern linguistics, and he seems to have gotten some basics right. You just need to check all his assertions against field work.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 22 2021, @09:46PM
I think a language has more constraints when its origins were from sounds spoken from one mouth.
Whereas a creature that is accustomed to communicating in parallel might develop different grammar.
On a related note: https://theconversation.com/understanding-the-amazing-complexity-of-sign-language-72813 [theconversation.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 22 2021, @07:01PM
That led down many rabbit holes. More linguistics nerd news like this would be great! It so often intertwines with cognitive systems and psych and other interesting fields.